jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<White_Flame> johnjaye: one other way to design side-band data is not to have a parameter/variable per datum, but rather have a singular context object to pass around
<White_Flame> (let ((*context* (some-new-context))) (foo a b))
<White_Flame> vs
<White_Flame> (foo context a b)
<White_Flame> then you can extend the structure of the context object without needing to change the interface of any of the business functions, or the new binding entries
<White_Flame> which sidesteps most of all of those old arguments
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<johnjaye> mind exploding when i realize there really are a lot of common lisp implementations
<johnjaye> i compiled this thing and it didn't produce an executable. just a bunch of .fasl files. and then a script which invokes a list of different CL
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<aeth> my mind blown moment was loading a 3D application in CCL after writing it in SBCL
<aeth> seems... more.
<aeth> there's just so much involved
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<lisp123> I found this good quote that applies to linked lists: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/3593#3593
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<johnjaye> i was mind blown when i realized you even could *write* 3d applications in sbcl
<johnjaye> i remember some old demo of a lisp machine. and it was all terminal windows black and white. and suddenly it loaded this beautiful hi-res 3d image. o_o
<beach> Oh? Why?
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<beach> johnjaye: I am curious, why were you "mind blown" by that realization.
<johnjaye> well. computers seem like simple machines. but they open up vast panoramas of computability, complexity, algorithms
<johnjaye> and it's often unclear what a given ecosystem can or can't do unless you're already in it and using it
<beach> Oh, so you were referring to the available tools?
<johnjaye> it was some SDL tetris thing. still in quicklisp iirc
<johnjaye> but what i mean is in computing there's this huge discoverability problem that search engines have to address
<johnjaye> namely, how do you find something without already knowing what it is
<johnjaye> so to a beginner like myself i had simply never seen someone write 3d stuff in lisp at all
<johnjaye> there's a world of difference between knowing something is possible and not knowin that
<beach> Well, to me Common Lisp is a Turing-complete programming language, so my first reaction would have been that things that are possible in other languages are possible in Common Lisp as well.
<Nilby> johnjaye: maybe you missed the videos showing how lisp machines were foundational in the 3d cgi industry in the 90s
<beach> Hence my question.
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<johnjaye> yes Nilby i was not aware of that
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<Nilby> It looks very dated now, but considering it's from 1989, before fast hardware, things like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXVBY2mGMN0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4HXPJtym2Q
<ixelp> Symbolics 1991/92 Client Reel 11/27/91 - YouTube
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<johnjaye> all these guys wearing turtlenecks...!
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<johnjaye> they have no idea windows 95 is about to storm in like a tidal wave on the world of computing
<pjb> beach: you have a computer with infinite memory?
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<pjb> For example, most GC systems can allocate only half the RAM worth of live objects (those using alternating two halves of memory). Therefore conceivably, you would be able to manage problems twice as big with languages with manual memory management (if you can do a good job at memory management for your problem), compared to CL implementations that can use only half the memory on the same computer.
<pjb> Not saying that I would want to do that rather than buying twice the memory, but on the same computer, perhaps for some problems, other ecosystems are more "powerful"?
<phoe> why do parenscript programmers always annoy cats?
<phoe> because (ps:ps* '(ps (ps ps) ps :ps ps)) ;=> "ps(ps(ps), ps, 'ps', ps);"
* phoe mic drops and walks out
<pjb> Why use such onomatopea with animals? Most of them can understand speach perfectly well.
* Nilby would gladly sacrifice some of the blazing speed of many idle cores for a compacting GC.
<pve> is "ps" that sound you make to make the cat come to you in some language?
<hayley> Nilby: Working on it <https://github.com/no-defun-allowed/swcl>. But there's no working compactor yet.
<ixelp> GitHub - no-defun-allowed/swcl: Steel Wool Common Lisp
<hayley> Although, currently a single-threaded GC that does no compacting at all is only about 5% slower than a single-threaded GC that attempts to copy when possible.
<phoe> pve: yes, notably, English
<pve> phoe: really?! mind blown
<Nilby> hayley: I'm quite glad you're working on it, and wish for your successes. I've looked through it, but C makes me sad in my old age.
<phoe> at least I just realized that some of my British folks do it like that, and my first thought was "parenscript"
<pve> alright, in my language it's "ks ks ks"
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<hayley> My C code is probably pretty bad. But I've managed to itch even for C++; following university work I'm convinced thread pools and closures go really nicely together.
<hayley> phoe: s/paren/post/
<Nilby> hayley: as you may know, before we had cores we used to pretend with throwing closures about
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<holycow> I have a question about mapcar and funcall
<holycow> i have been trying to use (mapcar #'funcal list) to mapcar through a list of lambdas
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<holycow> but that doesn't work because funcall seems to expect to apply a function to the list
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<holycow> what is the proper way to mapcar through a list of lambdas and run the sub programs?
<mfiano> (let ((lol (list (lambda () 1) (lambda () 2)))) (mapcar #'funcall lol)) ; => (1 2)
<holycow> oh, let me check that out
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<phoe> holycow: funcall calls functions on arguments; mapcar #'funcall will call all the functions from a list with zero arguments
<holycow> aha, that works.
<pjb> (mapcar (function funcall) (list (lambda () (princ 'hello)) (lambda () (princ " ")) (lambda () (princ 'world)))) #| hello world --> (hello " " world) |#
<pjb> Mind the alternatives, eg. (mapc (function funcall) (list (lambda () (princ 'hello)) (lambda () (princ " ")) (lambda () (princ 'world)))) #| hello world --> (#<Anonymous Function #x3020026DB16F> #<Anonymous Function #x3020026D7DDF> #<Anonymous Function #x3020026D4A4F>) |#
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<holycow> huh
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<holycow> it is so intersting learning lisp. there are a lot more subtleties to how the various functions work than i anticipated.
<holycow> i appreciate the explanations, that helps a lot
<mfiano> You might find #clschool useful
<holycow> oh, that's a thing?
<phoe> yes
<holycow> had no clue. okay, i'll move my noob questions there. thanks for the direction.
<pjb> holycow: http://cliki.net/IRC
<ixelp> CLiki: IRC
<holycow> way more channels that i anticipated
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<holycow> phoe: that explanation of the difference between the two is so clear to understand. i read a whole bunch on the functions and went through examples but never clued into that. neat.
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<pjb> holycow: if you want to pass arguments, add lists to mapcar: (mapcar (function funcall) '(+ - * / + - * /) '(1 2 3 4 10 20 30 40) '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)) #| --> (2 0 9 1 15 14 210 5) |#
<pjb> { 1+1 2-2 3*3 4/4 10+5 20-6 30*7 40/8 }
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<holycow> oh wow
<holycow> huh, okay, that is v cool.
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