#commonlisp on 2022-10-27 — irc logs at libera.irclog.whitequark.org

2022-07-28 16:55 jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>

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00:07 <dipper> is it way develop game in cl?

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00:08 <phoe> dipper: yes, see #lispgames

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05:30 <beach> I am re-reading PAIP, and it could use an ANSI update. Maybe we can convince phoe to contact the publisher and do the work? :)

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05:41 <dipper> hi whta PAIP mean

05:41 <beach> minion: Please tell dipper about PAIP

05:41 <minion> dipper: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp

05:41 <dipper> thank U

05:42 <beach> U R welcome.

05:43 <beach> It's a great book about programming in general and using Common Lisp in particular. It is not that much about AI (which is a good thing in my opinion); only in that it uses the "classic" AI problems as illustrations.

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05:45 <contrapunctus> «U R welcome.» oh god x'D

05:46 <beach> Indeed. I was reacting to "thank U".

05:46 <beach> I don't quite understand the reluctance to turning on the abbrev processor.

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05:51 <dipper> do you know the book <Software Design for Flexibility>

05:52 <beach> Me? I think I have it somewhere.

05:53 <dipper> yes, I just notice it recently

05:55 <dipper> by the way what PAIP required to read

05:57 <beach> Do you mean "what prerequisites are required in order to read PAIP"? Some Common Lisp knowledge is good but not required. He has an introductory chapter on Common Lisp.

05:57 <beach> Nothing else that I can see.

05:57 <dipper> ok yes

05:58 <beach> Well, you need to have some general programming knowledge, like recursion, data representations, etc.

05:58 <beach> I take it such knowledge is not required for some programming tasks that are currently handled by untrained people.

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06:00 <dipper> I wondering because lose some prerequisites may can not realy understand the book want to talk about

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06:49 <Posterdati> beach: I read some criticism about recursion on CL!

06:49 <Posterdati> beach: what do you think?

06:50 <Posterdati> beach: https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml?showone=Recursion#Recursion

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07:00 <frodef_> Hi, any suggestions for a license text for putting some code into public domain?

07:00 <White_Flame> Posterdati: that style guide is really for corporate use of hired teams

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07:02 <frodef_> Posterdati: Recursion should be used for recursive data-structures, but not for linear ones.

07:03 <frodef_> (...and for recursive algorithms, like quicksort.)

07:03 <contrapunctus> frodef_: https://unlicense.org/ https://www.wtfpl.net/

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07:04 <frodef_> contrapunctus: thanks

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07:04 <jackdaniel> frodef_: for sake of compatibility with various legislations use cc0 license or mit/bsd2 - some countries would not recognize 'public domain' without meeting certain criteria (i.e author died 70y ago) - afair

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07:05 <jackdaniel> unlicense is a legal gibberish, it will make it unusable with any project thatcares about legality

07:06 <jackdaniel> (i.e that they have rights to reuse code)

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07:07 <aeth> CC0 is controversial now, too, because it explicitly doesn't license any involved patents. https://lwn.net/ml/fedora-legal/CAC1cPGw1xScGAXo-0NRs92zFB7ptRxTt=oCYi0BxfZDfAgUtYQ@mail.gmail.com/

07:08 <jackdaniel> are we dealing with patents now? does mit license patents?

07:08 <aeth> HN discussion. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32226959

07:08 <frodef_> my goodness, how could this become complicated.

07:08 <phoe> frodef_: real world™

07:09 <jackdaniel> just use bsd2clause and forget about it

07:09 <aeth> I mean, I just use the MIT license because that's what almost everyone else uses unless they care about licenses. I wouldn't have any reason to prefer MIT over one of the BSD licenses if that wasn't the case, although "one of the BSD licenses" does hint that there's some complexity there because there's more than one

07:09 <phoe> Posterdati: I'm not beach but mostly agree with this, as a person who has (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy '{debug,safety} 3 3) in their RC file and therefore globally disables tail calls

07:09 <mzan> frodef_: the problem is that the concept of "public domain" is not fully recognized in all nations. So it is better using some BSD-like license.

07:11 <frodef_> You'd think the concept "do WTF you like, no warranty implied" would be universally recognized somehow.

07:12 <jackdaniel> aeth: this cc0 controversy is bogus according to the legal council of HN strangers ;)

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07:15 <frodef_> jackdaniel: bsd2clause requires the license to be re-distributed? I don't want to have that requirement, unless it's somehow legally required..?

07:16 <frodef_> same for the MIT license, it seems.

07:17 <jackdaniel> license when redistributing should be retained from the legal perspective; not that it is always honored

07:18 <contrapunctus> frodef_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-domain-equivalent_license

07:18 <jackdaniel> that also protects you - someone wont take your code, claim authorship and say that you copied it from them! ;)

07:18 <contrapunctus> > In 2011, the Free Software Foundation added CC0 to its free software licenses and called it "the preferred method of releasing software in the public domain".[23][24]

07:18 <contrapunctus> > In June 2020, following a request for legacy approval, OSI formally recognized the Unlicense as an approved license meeting the OSD.[28]

07:19 <contrapunctus> And looks like you also have the option of using 0BSD or MIT-0.

07:19 <Posterdati> White_Flame: what style do you suggest?

07:20 <frodef_> Sigh. Guess I'll use MIT by its virtue of being shortest.

07:20 <jackdaniel> contrapunctus: I stand corrected then, thanks for linking

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07:22 <contrapunctus> :)

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07:23 <White_Flame> Posterdati: whatever suits you best, whatever concisely conveys the intent of your code without being opaque

07:23 <beach> Posterdati: Like others said, recursion is for recursive data structures, but some recursive data structures are better treated as sequences. So it boils down to avoiding recursion for linear structures and reserving it for tree-like structures. Then your stack depth can often be limited to O(log n) where n is the size of your data set.

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07:25 <aeth> jackdaniel: maybe, maybe not, but there's a sort of safety-in-numbers by keeping it as simple as going along with the popular and doing copyleft=>GPL, else=>MIT

07:25 <aeth> maybe it's not ideal? but then the whole ecosystem is in trouble

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07:26 <White_Flame> recursion can also be useful in complex loops, where you spin off in other directions, or different variables are in play in different iterations

07:27 <beach> Posterdati: Like phoe, I have my SBCL OPTIMIZE qualities set so that tail recursion is disabled.

07:27 <White_Flame> the scope of mutually recursive functions can contain stuff like that nicely, compared to a bunch of conditionals in a single loop

07:27 <frodef_> Hi beach

07:27 <beach> White_Flame: You mean, say, iteration on the CDR but recursion on the CAR? Sure.

07:27 <beach> Hello frodef_.

07:28 <beach> Welcome back! :)

07:28 <White_Flame> I mean if the loop is stateful and can have different behaviors based on what it's traversing through, even if linear

07:28 <beach> I see.

07:29 <White_Flame> I tend to use loop for where its keywords directly cover what I need from a loop, and tend to use recursion if it gets more complex

07:30 <frodef_> Pet peeve: IMHO the recursion-for-iteration idea is fundamentally a bad idea. It's a mere abuse of the function call mechanism.

07:31 <beach> I had an "interesting" experience in Cluffer, where I use a splay tree for the lines in a buffer. Splay trees are self-balancing structures, so recursion seemed the preferred choice to traverse such a tree. But it turns out that the initial creation from a long file of text created a skinny tree, so the stack was blown.

07:32 <beach> So I had to come up with an iterative alternative.

07:33 <beach> frodef_: But it's a cute way of simplifying your formal semantics, as they do with Scheme.

07:35 <White_Flame> it does complect the processing of a node with the traversal mechanism somewhat

07:35 <White_Flame> loop keeps those a bit more separate, though not isolated

07:36 <White_Flame> and of course sometimes the traversal depends on the processing

07:36 <frodef_> beach: It's cute and neat for sure, which is how it gets you! :)

07:36 <White_Flame> (as is usually the case with recursive data structures, go figure)

07:37 <jackdaniel> "sufficiently smart bla bla will replace recursion with interation", excercise: figure what "bla bla" stands for

07:38 <jackdaniel> n.b DO wonderfully recreates tail self-recursion semantics being an iteration construct

07:46 <contrapunctus> aeth: «maybe it's not ideal? but then the whole ecosystem is in trouble» preventing a scenario like that is the whole point of diversity ;)

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07:53 <beach> frodef_: Heh, sure!

07:54 * frodef_ realizes his code-to-be-licensed is arguably using linear recursion :-)

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07:55 <beach> frodef_: By the way, what happened to your promise to get back into Movitz (compilers, operating systems, etc.)?

07:57 <frodef_> beach: Life getting in the way? Presumably I never promised any time schedule :)

07:57 <beach> I see. That's true, no schedule was proposed.

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08:05 <frodef_> beach: SICL going well?

08:06 <beach> frodef_: Yes, thank you! Slow but steady progress.

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08:07 <frodef_> beach: good to hear. Sorry I haven't contributed, I still hope to.

08:07 <beach> Me too! :)

08:08 <beach> Seriously. Don't worry about it. I am doing OK. But I am slow, so it takes time.

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14:47 * splittist is a happy user of trees, btw

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16:14 <pjb> splittist: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/10/growing-furniture-deforestation-farm-chairs/

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20:40 <NotThatRPG> Is there any good portable function-wrapping/advice facility that I could use to make code that will work on both Allegro and SBCL?

20:42 <Josh_2> Huh?

20:42 <Josh_2> You can use portability libraries

20:42 <Josh_2> Like Bordeaux Threads

20:44 <NotThatRPG> No, sorry, I mean "is there a portable library for function wrapping or advising"?

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20:44 <NotThatRPG> For that matter, I can't recall what it is that SBCL calls its wrapping-like interface, and I can't seem to find it in the user manual

20:45 <NotThatRPG> I'm monkey-patching a library and for now my monkey-patched version only works on Allegro, and I would like it to work on SBCL, too, so I could benefit from SBCL's type-checking

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20:46 <Josh_2> Oh my mistake sorry

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20:55 <NotThatRPG> Looks like maybe it's sb-impl:encapsulate ?

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20:58 <NotThatRPG> But I'm not finding any discussion of how to use it, aside from a pretty terse discussion in the source code (code/fdefinition.lisp)

20:59 <jmercouris> NotThatRPG: what if you used methods?

21:00 <jmercouris> we discussed the idea of having function advising in Nyxt, but then we moved to methods and found it covered many of our use cases

21:00 <NotThatRPG> jmercouris: I could do that, but once I do that, I'm no longer monkey-patching -- I need to modify the original system.

21:00 <jmercouris> NotThatRPG: I see

21:00 <NotThatRPG> Not impossible, but not what I want to be doing RN unless it's absolutely, absolutely necessary.

21:05 <Nilby> NotThatRPG: There's cl-advice in quicklisp. I haven't tried it though.

21:06 <jmercouris> I've heard of cl-advice

21:06 <jmercouris> I believe Pierre (ambrevar) played with it, but didn't completely buy into it for some reason

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21:07 <Nilby> There's also trival-arguments with which you could make a trival re-definition type defadvice

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21:09 <Nilby> sbcl's cl:trace can do :report #'some-function :print nil, which it seems to be able to do by either encapsulation or function modification

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21:18 <NotThatRPG> Nilby jmercouris: Thanks to both of you! I will follow-up on these

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21:32 <jmercouris> Bike: can you use Clasp to read C++ programs and spit out C bindings to C++ functions?

21:35 <jmercouris> Bike: something like this: https://github.com/rpav/c2ffi

21:35 <jmercouris> but potentially with more knowledge of the code, making better bindings?

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21:39 <Bike> jmercouris: we already have clang's ASTMatchers hooked up, so you could probably do something like that

21:39 <frodef_> I've githubbed some debris code from a project of mine. https://github.com/frodef/getx I find it useful. Any comments?

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21:40 <jmercouris> Bike: to expand upon my question; do you think it could be conceivably be used to generate Qt bindings for CL?

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21:41 <jmercouris> that way lisp implementations that are *not* clasp could still use C++ libraries?

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21:42 <Bike> I'm not familiar with Qt, but it might be possible. We use ASTMatchers to go through C++ code to find definitions we use for the interop. Something could be set up to use the clang ASTs instead to generate C bindings.

21:43 <Bike> this isn't something we have done, partly because it's kind of the point of clasp to not need C bindings

21:45 <Bike> from a cursory search it looks like there are some existing tools to do this, like https://github.com/GridTools/cpp_bindgen

21:45 <jmercouris> Bike: I see, thank you

21:46 <Bike> i would also say that making C bindings from C++ headers is in my experience not something that can be done totally without human intervention. there's a bit of creativity involved

21:47 <Bike> one thing we do in clasp is that if a C++ function has reference parameters that are not read from, we make those into a multiple value return. it's kind of an impedance mismatch thing

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22:06 <NotThatRPG> Kind of forgot -- is there an abbreviation for (ftype (function ...) foo) ? I had a vague memory that there was, but maybe I am mis-remembering

22:08 <Josh_2> Defmacro?

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22:16 <Bike> NotThatRPG: not that i can think of, in the standard anyway

22:16 <NotThatRPG> I thought there was something that collapsed the two, because `ftype` is generally followed by a function-type definition. I must be confusing this with something else.

22:17 <Bike> i know sometimes people have defining macros for that sort of thing

22:18 <NotThatRPG> OK here's another dumb question for today (i'm really going at it): is there a cl indent for emacs that will word-wrap constructs if I set a line length. Like something that would make this more pleasing:

22:18 <NotThatRPG> (declaim (special *choice-parent* *parent-index* *state-score-table* *plans-found* *states-found* *unifiers-found*))

22:19 <Nilby> The problem is `function` is type so omitting the `ftype` like you can do with `type` would be ambiguous.

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22:23 <NotThatRPG> Nilby: Yes, I can see that, because a function declaration can appear inside either type or ftype

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22:32 <Nilby> Sometimes I momentarily consider crazy things like modifying the #' reader macro so you could: (declaim (#'((integer string) t) foo)) or something

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22:47 <NotThatRPG> I was probably mis-remembering and confusing this with the way that DECLAIM simplified the combination of PROCLAIM and DECLARE

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22:55 <pjb> NotThatRPG: (deftype my-fun () `(function (integer) integer)) (declaim (ftype my-fun foo))

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