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<count3rmeasure>
anyone have any leads on GIS libraries that would help one do essentially what geodjango does?
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<beach>
minion: What doe GIS stand for?
<minion>
a banana
<hayley>
minion: What does GIS stand for?
<minion>
Gilling Inestimability Soldado
<hayley>
"Geographic Information System"
<beach>
Ah, I am not quite awake yet. Still working on my coffee.
<beach>
Thanks hayley.
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<beach>
I guess the people here who know neither what the abbreviation means, nor what geodjango is would be unlikely to answer the question anyway.
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<kakuhen>
"CL is dead because i was too lazy to click the top result in google for 'common lisp websocket'." amazing.
<kakuhen>
what next? golang is dead for having no SIMD library?
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<count3rmeasure>
sorry all I got pulled away!
<count3rmeasure>
yes, Geographic Information System, and geodjango is the extension to the python web framework Django that allows for database and framework wide awareness of polygon data types for cartography
<jcowan>
All known programming languages are dead.
<jcowan>
Also, all known programmers are now dead.
<hayley>
Amateurs. Bela Lugosi is undead.
* jcowan
laughs
<count3rmeasure>
yes
<jcowan>
Also dead.
<count3rmeasure>
I'm going to listen to that right now
<mason>
Dracula's not a particularly good vampire story.
<mason>
The Historian, now...
<count3rmeasure>
this is such a good song to hack to
<jcowan>
The subtitle is "A Mystery", I think because horror was not yet a genre
<jcowan>
(of Dracula, that is)
<count3rmeasure>
for the logs if anyone else asks, it appears this page has some leads on my initial question https://www.cliki.net/geospatial
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<verisimilitude>
I misremembered a discussion about it earlier, kakuhen; the point, however, is that whether a language be ``dead'' or not is arbitrary and generally unimportant.
<verisimilitude>
People look at finished software and whine that it hasn't been touched in years, so it must be ``dead''.
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<pjb>
verisimilitude: live software is like gagh. If you like to run after your food, it's for you. I prefer dead software.
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<verisimilitude>
I'd also prefer to use ``dead'' software.
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<gamaliel>
Hi, how would I export (setf foo) function symbols in a package for the (:use ...) list of symbols?
<beach>
gamaliel: Packages export symbols, not functions.
<gamaliel>
Yes, I meant the (setf foo) kind of symbol for a setf function.
<beach>
So if the symbol FOO is exported, then you can use (setf your-package:foo) with a single package prefix.
<beach>
That's not a symbol
<beach>
It is a list of two symbols.
<beach>
s/package prefix/package marker/
<gamaliel>
Oh, ok. I am just having a bit of a problem with a test where it can't find my (setf get-entry-list) function because the symbol isn't exported. But I already exported the get-entry-list symbol.
<beach>
If that symbol is in a different package, you may need to either import it or use a package marker.
<beach>
What makes you think the reason it can't find your function is that the symbol isn't exported.
<pjb>
gamaliel: also, when you modify the source of defpackage forms, it's not enough; you also need to evaluate the new defpackage forms, for the changes to be taken into account in the REPL. (or reload the program).
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<gamaliel>
The test output gave me "The function (COMMON-LISP:SETF ACCOUNTING-APP/USER::GET-ENTRY-LIST) is
<gamaliel>
undefined." But I checked on the accounting-app/user package and it is indeed there, and the :get-entry-list symbol is exported.
<pjb>
gamaliel: good. But is a function named (COMMON-LISP:SETF ACCOUNTING-APP/USER::GET-ENTRY-LIST) defined anywhere?
<beach>
gamaliel: That error is not because the symbol is not exported.
<_death>
it may be that you try to call the function before you define it
<gamaliel>
Never mind, i found the cause. It was in accounting-app/ledger package, not accounting-app/user.
<pjb>
gamaliel: that's a reason why I don't like too much multiplying packages.
<gamaliel>
Well, I had it all under the accounting-app package directly, but I felt like many functions would clash if I kept them all under the same namespace. So, I decided to split them into 1-package per file.
<gamaliel>
But I'm not really sure, I just was following some tutorials that put one package per file. Guess that isn't the flex they made it be.
<beach>
I find that convention creates more problems than it solves.
<beach>
I can't figure out who came up with it, nor why.
<gamaliel>
I at least had a bit of fun learning how to manage packages and symbols. My only previous related experience was with R namespaces, which are... very different.
<gamaliel>
Very nice read. I like the module approach, since a part of my software will be a large set of pre-defined "templates". I hadn't yet seen a tutorial use the (in-package :asdf-user) line at the beginning of a defsystem entry. Seems like a very clean way to define systems.
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<beach>
Thanks!
<beach>
That particular IN-PACKAGE form is not recommended by ASDF, but I find it helps Emacs/SLIME parse the DEFSYSTEM form.
<beach>
Since ASDF does not recommend it, something might break in the future if you use it.
<beach>
When ASDF loads a system definition, it automatically sets the package to the right one, presumably ASDF-USER at the moment.
<gamaliel>
Oh, ok. I like how it is clear in specifying where you are starting the defsystem form evaluation, though.
<beach>
Yes, that's why I do it.
<beach>
I am not sure why the ASDF documentation says what it does.
<beach>
I guess I should ask the maintainer at some point.
<pjb>
I use (asdf:defsystem …) in general.
<beach>
Sure, that fixes that symbol.
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<doomduck>
pjb: idk seems like there's a big difference between "a library written by 1 person is dead but I can fix it", and "a compiler is dead" ... at least I personally have zero intention of tracking down compiler bugs
<jackdaniel>
compilers are mere programs, don'g worry
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<pjb>
doomduck: jackdaniel is right.
<pjb>
doomduck: but you're also right, avoid using software whose sources you cannot read in a lifetime!
<pjb>
doomduck: better: only use software you've written yourself.
<doomduck>
... I know you're joking but like, some things are more scary than others ... having some code unoptimized because a compiler can't figure it out is less scary than codegen bugs that cause UB because the compiler thought something doesn't alias when it does
<doomduck>
or just the recent c++ async clusterfuck
<pjb>
Yes. That's also a reason why you would want to use simplier languages, simplier to understand and simplier to compile. Thus we can better ensure they have fewer bugs.
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<jcowan>
It just moves the bugs around. Assemblers are simpler than any compiler, but assembly-language programs have more bugs because they have more LOC.
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<pjb>
jcowan: lisp is the simpliest language.
<pjb>
but since you can implement easily abstractions of various kind in it, you can write bugfree programs.
<jcowan>
"In principle, yes."
<edgar-rft>
bugs are an important part of the food chain, bugfree programs aren't good for the environment
<doomduck>
jcowan: it might move the bugs around, but bugs in your code are much less problematic than bugs in the compiler or toolchain ... but ofc yeah assembler is a special thing, but I don't think most people would consider that a language
<jcowan>
In one sense. But given a buggy situation, the odds are high that the bug is in your code. There are bugs in sbcl or gcc or whatever, but the likelihood that you are the first to hit one is small, and there are generally a lot of eyes and brains on it all the time. Your own code, not so much.
<jcowan>
The fact that the number of LOCs per bug is pretty much constant explains why higher-level languages have been a win for many decades now.
<pjb>
and more so, languages where you can easily generate automatically your code thanks to nice macros, like lisp.
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<AadVersteden[m]>
the pretty printer automatically indents nested objects. i'd like to redefine print-object but make use of the facility that tracks the depth at which things should be rendered. i fail to find references to the relevant facilities.
<yitzi>
pprint-logical-block?
<AadVersteden[m]>
yitzi: thanks, that'll be it :D
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<yitzi>
cool. There are about 3 different implementations of the pretty printer. They each have a slightly different "pretty stream" mechanism.
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<AadVersteden[m]>
Perhaps `~<...~:>` could be closer to what I need. I need to experiment a bit :-)
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<AadVersteden[m]>
does pprint-logical-block support nested logical blocks/
<AadVersteden[m]>
s///?/
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<beach>
AadVersteden[m]: I encourage you to use the implementation yitzi created. That way we can have it tested.
<AadVersteden[m]>
oh cool. is it on quicklisp? what's the name?
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<AadVersteden[m]>
Also: do I understand correctly that the common lisp specification doesn't allow me to hook into the mechanism for indenting?
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<beach>
You need to check with yitzi for the details. I have put its use on hold because SICL is not quite ready for it yet.
<beach>
Initially, I deliberately did not make the pretty printer part of the SICL project, because i thought I would use the library that is the basis of what everyone else uses. Then I looked at the code of that library, and I instantly changed my mind.
<beach>
So yitzi took the challenge and wrote a much better implementation.
<beach>
I can imagine that implementation is more flexible in what it allows the user to configure.
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<cosimone>
hello, does anyone know if there is some way to get a monotonically increasing real time value in an arbitrary resolution, not necessarily internal-time-units-per-second?
<cosimone>
preferably in an implementation-independent manner
<beach>
Why can't you just decide on a unit of resolution and increment an integer that represents a value using that resolution?
<pjb>
I have a (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.time:get-real-time)
<beach>
Oh, you want it to reflect THE real time?
<cosimone>
beach: that approach only limits me to the resolution specified by internal-time-units-per-second
<cosimone>
if it's in microseconds, how can you know how many nanoseconds specifically have passed?
<beach>
cosimone: Never mind. I misunderstood what you wanted to do.
<cosimone>
what i want to do specifically is to measure time with nanosecond precision
<cosimone>
using the time function won't cut it since i'm trying to gather latency measurements for individual elements
<pjb>
Then you should use CFFI to call the OS to get it.
<cosimone>
pjb: that sounds like a possible solution, but i'm interested to see if there is a "native" cl solution for this
<cosimone>
does uiop of all things provide timespec/etc. functions? that would be an alright approach for me
<pjb>
The standard specified internal-time-units-per-second ; nothing says it's not nanoseconds.
<cosimone>
nothing says it HAS to be nanoseconds either
<cosimone>
on the latest clozure cl version, it isn't
<cosimone>
it's 1000000
<pjb>
When the stadard was specified, computers didn't re3ach nanoseconds.
<cosimone>
that's fine, but irrelevant to what i was interested in
<pjb>
Nothing prevents you to provide a patch so that ccl uses the nanosecond nowadays.
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<cosimone>
no, but i fail to see the relevance of this statement
<cosimone>
if there is no known way of doing this in an implementation-independent way and without using CFFI, just say that
<pjb>
Completeness.
<pjb>
I provided you with all the solutions.
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<beach>
cosimone: Since the standard does not mention any other way than what you initially mentioned, I can't see how an implementation-independent solution could be found.
<AadVersteden[m]>
cosimone: What sometimes happens in that case is the definition of a library that works across most CL implementations. That's certainly imperfect but it may be the closest you can get. If you're building something to share widely, perhaps creating a library that will contain that feature would make it easier for others to extend it for their preferred implementation. Lest that, I'd go for CFFI or similar.
<AadVersteden[m]>
Specifically: if you're scratching your own itch, I'd do it inline.
<Shinmera>
cosimone: on sbcl you can use sb-ext:get-time-of-day
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<jackdaniel>
I've used a monotonic clock via ffi when I had such need; it worked just fine
<jackdaniel>
(linux interface, I don't remember the exact name of the function)
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<verisimilitude>
It's really easy to write a flawless machine code program, jcowan.
<verisimilitude>
As for decreasing the size of programs to remove flaws, APL is still the king in that respect.
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<jcowan>
verisimilitude: I shall be happy to see your flawless web browser written in assembly language.
<verisimilitude>
Be not obtuse.
<verisimilitude>
Obviously, it's easier to write a flawless program with a smaller range of behaviour, and this is somewhat forced at the machine code level.
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<verisimilitude>
No WWW browser has a formal specification in anything except flawed code, because all of them are garbage.
<jcowan>
Code (which is what the WHATWG spec is) *is* a formalism.
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<verisimilitude>
Isn't that a ``living standard''?
<verisimilitude>
Regardless, there's a lot of software much smaller and simpler than a WWW browser.
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<Bike>
verisimilitude: you have spent the last several days being grouchy here about the general state of software. it is off topic. stop doing this. there are more appropriate venues.
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<verisimilitude>
I didn't start it.
<verisimilitude>
Well, I may have started it.
<phoe>
but there's this thing where over these past few days there wasn't a day where the main topic for some time wasn't debating verisimilitude's views on software
<verisimilitude>
Yes, that's fair.
<Bike>
that is my main concern, yes.
<phoe>
and speaking in irc terms, that's not #commonlisp, that's #verisimilitude
<phoe>
which is a whole separate channel
<phoe>
I wonder if #lispcafe would be a better venue to be honest since it has various discussions
<phoe>
only some of which are directly related to CL
<phoe>
and most of which are interesting
<contrapunctus>
«more appropriate venues» like #cal-coop / #applied-language 😏
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<contrapunctus>
Or #lispcafe, yes
<verisimilitude>
No, I have a channel effectively for myself on a different network. I suppose I'll leave this channel for another few years now. If pve would like to talk to me about my library, I'll be in #lispcafe for a bit.
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<phoe>
if that's the deal you deem acceptable then that's fair
<Bike>
i will be a bit more general: everyone, if you are half an hour in to an argument about web standards or chip design or what ever, please take a step back and consider if this is the place.
<phoe>
(incf Bike)
<Bike>
it's not like you have to talk about common lisp at all times, but having a _lot_ of _long_ conversations about other stuff is not great
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<pjb>
jcowan: WriteNow! once was a flaweless word processor written in 68030 assembler.
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<pjb>
jcowan: then they rewrote it in Objective-C…
<masinter>
assembly langauge is buggy because the hardware is buggy
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<_death>
don't let the FDIVs bite
<yitzi>
::notify AadVersteden my pretty printer is https://github.com/yitzchak/Inravina ... the readme is out of date because I am the process of detaching it from Incless (the SICL printer) in order to make it work with implementation's other than SICL. This currently works with SBCL, ECL, CLASP and ABCL. If you want to talk about it feel free to DM me.
<Colleen>
yitzi: Got it. I'll let AadVersteden know as soon as possible.
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