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<phoe>
I have a question related to indentation in slime - I have been wrestling with SETF TRIVIAL-INDENT:INDENTATION for a while to achieve https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/3458#3458
<phoe>
basically I want to indent a list of keywords as if it was quoted (since it's a list of tags) rather than a function call with keyword arguments which I assume is happening
<phoe>
how can I achieve this?
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<Josh_2>
Good Morning
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<jcowan>
flip214: We really don't want introspection on lexical environments, because it requires a heavyweight implementation strategy that drags down execution. As things stand, it is possible for the compiler to make lexical environments disappear completely.
<phoe>
jcowan: drags down execution, you mean compilation speed?
<Bike>
execution. since the lexenvs have to actually exist at runtime.
<jcowan>
no, I mean execution speed.
<jcowan>
That means they have to be assembled and then torn down repeatedly.
<jcowan>
it's one of the things that makes CPython slow
<jcowan>
It's one of the Obvious Mistakes that language designers make: Hey, lexical environments look like hash tables, so let's just use hash tables and let the user get at them as such!
<Bike>
i've done some experiments and i think it would be possible to make them disappear almost all of the time even if not always, but it's not good enough to present
<Bike>
and i'm going off of some guy's phd thesis instead of whatever the hell the cpython people were thinking
<hayley>
How slow can you make introspection? In the read-only case, can you glean off debug info?
<hayley>
Self preserved source-level execution, and thus introspection as a corollary. It also had a spiffy JIT compiler and all that, but read-only introspection would only require preserving dead variables.
<phoe>
yes, I understand what flip214 meant now
<Bike>
based on my c++ experience i can tell you that performance would probably crater
<Bike>
pulling things out of debug info is really really slow.
<Bike>
course it might change some in a pure lisp environment where you don't need to worry about dlopen. i don't know.
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<jcowan>
The CPython implementation strategy is "dumb is better than smart", basically.
<jcowan>
As a fine example, a Python list is a dumb C array, and when you call insert() on it, it copies everything down to make a space. Why? It's basically guaranteed bug-free.
<hayley>
Bike: I wouldn't expect introspection to be fast still. Ironically, if it's just a question of FORMAT finding local functions, then a compiler macro could generate the appropriate code, and we could constant-fold (fdefinition 'blah) or whatever our introspection looks like.
<Bike>
what i mean is that i think doing that would be slower than just allocating hash tables everywhere. but yeah for format that would be the smart way to do it.
<Bike>
i've worked a lot with C++ exceptions, and the way that basically works is that it's more or less free until you actually use exceptions, at which point your program runs literally a thousand times slower and also serially.
<hayley>
What would be slower? The introspection code?
<Bike>
looking at debug information.
<hayley>
Hypothetically it should be uncommon, so I don't see the need to make it very fast.
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<Bike>
once i get my experimentation working better i will hopefully be able to decide on these things empirically.
<hayley>
I also have to wonder if it's just the debug info being set up in a bad way, or if it's inherent, but I've never poked at C++ guts before.
<Bike>
oh, there's definitely some of the former. they use DWARF, and DWARF was designed to be small rather than fast. but i suspect you'd see at least some of the problems.
<Bike>
for example, you either need all the introspectable variables to be in a simple stack location, or you need to figure out some way to indicate what could be pretty involved "locations" split across registers and so on
<Bike>
like you might get with an unboxed complex or something
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<jackdaniel>
oh, Drew McDermott died this year (he worked on YTools among other things)
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<beach>
Wow, how old was he?
<jackdaniel>
73
<jackdaniel>
almost, 72*
<beach>
I see, thanks.
<jackdaniel>
sure
<jcowan>
Nowadays that almost seems like a premature death.
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<phoe>
I have a folder with a ton of .lisp files which are mutually independent from one another and listing them in the ASD file is something of a hassle. Is there a way to tell ASDF something like "scan this directory for all .lisp files and treat them as components" in a portable way?
<phoe>
s/portable way/something that is baked into standard ASDF and does not require extensions/
<jackdaniel>
there is, I've posted a snippet a few years ago on this channel (or #lisp on freenode :)
<phoe>
le gasp
<jackdaniel>
basically a matter of specializing a method
<phoe>
.....now let me try to find that snippet
<jackdaniel>
(and subclassing the class asdf:component of course, for specialization)
<jackdaniel>
tough luck phoe, you need to write it yourself ;)
<_death>
phoe: I add each snippet to a snippets.asd file, which is not a big deal.. I also use package-inferred-systems so that each snippet can be a standalone file (no asd file needed) in general, and depend on other snippets without issue if needed
<phoe>
jackdaniel: oof :D
<_death>
I can (ql:quickload "snippets/foo") without issue or (ql:quickload "snippets") to load'em all (which I usually do after compiling sbcl)
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<Josh_2>
7k SLOC of CL of who knows
<Josh_2>
:sunglasses:
<Josh_2>
Somehow it works
<phoe>
jackdaniel: there's a minor problem with this code, namely, the children are created anew every single time, which means that ASDF cannot store last-modified dates in the component objects and it'll never realize that it does not need to recompile them
<phoe>
but it's a minor annoyance
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<pve>
I should not admit it, but It's become my default system class when creating a new project. I only switch to the standard asdf system class if it becomes necessary.
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<Josh_2>
I made a thing
<Josh_2>
in fact someone posted it on reddit and its now got the most updoots of any of the things I ever made
<Josh_2>
Pretty cool ackhtually
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