jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<Nilby> nytpu: What I've had to do is on non-sbcl make a bivalent gray stream subclass to use as *standard-output*. hunchentoot uses it's flexistreams for doing that to network sockets.
<Nilby> I agree it's frustrating that every implementation can't just do: (write-byte 128 *standard-output*)
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<ardon> Hi! Is it possible at all to pass an absolute path in :components to defsystem? I tried overriding the :pathname to an empty path but it still errors out with "Expected a relative pathname"
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<phoe> I don't think so, why would you need to do this?
<jackdaniel> ardon: specify :absolute-pathname
<jackdaniel> (instead of :pathname)
<phoe> jackdaniel: TIL!
<jackdaniel> hum, but does it work? there doesn't seem to be an initarg
<jackdaniel> so no, it won't work
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<ardon> Thanks jackdaniel, I'll try to figure out another way
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<dipper> is it way use cl develop app on windows/linux/android?
<jackdaniel> windows and linux are covered by most implementations; on android ecl may be used (i.e see the project eql5-android) or lispworks
<jackdaniel> since sbcl recently-ish gained a possibility to be built into a shared library, a similar approach as ecl could be taken with sbcl, but I don't know whether someone attempted to do that
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<beach> Oh, that's nice. It will silence those who complain about large executables.
<dipper> ok thank you, will watch it
<jackdaniel> executables still will be large, unless you are willing to interface with sbcl via ffi :)
<beach> Oh? Won't all the shared code be in the shared library? Like the compiler?
<jackdaniel> I don't think that sbcl saves its core as a shared library and reuses it from different sbcl applications
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<beach> I guess I misunderstood the novelty you described.
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<jackdaniel> I'd ask on #sbcl if I were you
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<jackdaniel> because I'm only broking a second hand information ,)
<beach> It's OK. I don't create executables myself.
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<dipper> how would you use cl mostly for what?
<dipper> tools or apps or elses
<beach> Me? I develop some applications, mostly for myself. But my main project is a new Common Lisp implementation.
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<dipper> oh nice job, what is that, for what.
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<beach> dipper: The core of a typical existing Common Lisp system is very old, and things have happened to hardware and memory management since. I think there are some improvements to be had.
<dipper> and any different with current one
<dipper> is it build new base on old one is possible?
<beach> It is written from scratch.
<jackdaniel> that's quite an achievement, scratch is mainly targetted at children; that said they do amazing things with it too
<jackdaniel> ,)
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<tyson2> jackdaniel: my former boss is the main designer of scratch
<jackdaniel> I've heard that there is a very vibrant community of children sharing programs and ideas beyond expectations of the authors, but I don't remember where I've read that
<dipper> tyson2: nice boss, it is realy a big market
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<tyson2> dipper: i heard that there's 100 M users in the repository that they use
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<tyson2> which makes it one of the most popular language environments. It is essentially based on Logo
<dipper> what's magic in that, is it just very simple and funny?
<dipper> it is like a DSL
<Posterdati> dipper: unfortunately lisp in general is no longer hardware related :)
<dipper> so how can I do to develop
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<Posterdati> dipper: system programming is possible
<Posterdati> dipper: if you haven't to deal with kernel or modules programming directly
<Posterdati> you can even write a program with its gui using clim
<dipper> thank you
<Posterdati> dipper: I program my website using hunchentoot and dinamically generated pages :)
<Posterdati> dipper: as for other languages, common lisp take advantages from a rich community
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<Posterdati> dipper: most of the lisp/cl programmers are from universities around the world :)
<beach> Posterdati: How did you come to that conclusion?
<dipper> Posterdati: can I ask for you site address?
<White_Flame> Posterdati: really? most universities I've heard of use scheme, not cl
<White_Flame> for a lisp
<Posterdati> beach: lisp is the language of choice in many academic works especially in AI
<beach> I am surprised.
<White_Flame> not since machine learning became the latest hotness
<White_Flame> for "AI"
<beach> Yeah.
<dipper> yes lisp is better, I realy sick at c++ complicate syntax
<Posterdati> beach: it seems that python is used too! :)
<White_Flame> of course, python is just usually an interface to C or C++ high speed math libraries
<Posterdati> beach: don't forget the prof. Attardi's work on ECL
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<Posterdati> White_Flame: I'm using gsll, not bad too
<dipper> Posterdati: thank U
<jackdaniel> KCL earlier also came from the university in Kyoto; then also AKCL/GCL (that is ECL sibling) was also pulled by William Schelter who was a prof at the University of Texas
<Posterdati> dipper: basically it is an unfinished work :) I'm still working on it
<Posterdati> jackdaniel: even prof. Peter Norvig is using CL at google!
<jackdaniel> ECL was after prof Attardi maintained by prof Garcia-Ripoll (not in computer science though), so we could say that this branch of the common lisp implementation family had quite a few uni-related people
<dipper> so it is product page like monitor
<jackdaniel> that said CL originates from the industrial setting
<Posterdati> jackdaniel: and uni-user people too :)
<jackdaniel> and many compromises were made to nudge it towards practical usefullness
<Posterdati> jackdaniel: isn't Steele a prof. somewhere? MIT?
<jackdaniel> having a title doesn't mean that the work is related to the university; many smart people get their phd; often they move on to work in some not-university-related companies
<White_Flame> Party hard Degree
<Bike> steele apparently was an assistant professor at CMU for a while, but most of the stuff he's known for was done in industry, i think.
<jackdaniel> he co-authored the "lambda papers"
<Posterdati> jackdaniel: wasn't he involved in the ANSI comitee too?
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<jackdaniel> yes, but what makes you think that he was at the university then?
<jackdaniel> when he authored cltl2 he was working in Thinking Machines, Inc.
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<dipper> smart people like them maybe work for interest
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<Posterdati> I did not say he was at university that time, but he's somehow uni-related
<jackdaniel> well, that's a stretch of an argument
<jackdaniel> my dad worked at the university, so I'm uni-related too
<jackdaniel> http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/2f47efea-poly.mp4 -- I've resumed my work on polyclot, a short video
<Posterdati> jackdaniel: why? I assume that people like Steele do their work as programmer or teacher there, so it is related!
<dipper> jackdaniel: like work on arch linux?
<jackdaniel> dipper: I'm writing a CLIM implementation of "Layered Grammar of Graphics", a ggplot2-like software for Common Lisp
<jackdaniel> I've once started it but the project got time-deprived and I've recently picked it up
<dipper> jackdaniel: I mean OS you used
<jackdaniel> on this computer? it is ubuntu
<jackdaniel> but why does it matter?
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<Nilby> although lisp code from 30 years ago might work, lisp facts from 30 years ago not so much
<Bike> a lot of what steele is known for is language standardization, which is more of an industry thing than an academic one. RABBIT etc are influential but dead, while common lisp and java are still kicking
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<dipper> no matter, just a guess
<dipper> why java become so populer,?
<beach> Massive corporate backing. But that's really off topic here.
<phoe> sounds like a #lispcafe topic, yes
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<dipper> I think lisp maybe shine in another 30s in future
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<parsnip> hi, there is a lot of join/quit from specbot in #emacs
<parsnip> i see the bot mentioned here: https://www.cliki.net/irc
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<parsnip> yow!
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<kakuhen> turns out CL can't save people from writing misbehaved bots. Oh well :-(
<phoe> you can write misbehaved bots^W^Wperl in any language
<parsnip> looks like it was broken for a couple days about five days ago too. maybe we should just ban it from #emacs for 48 hours
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<kakuhen> I wish I could give better news than "uhh just ignore join/quits"
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<parsnip> i do have them ignored, but generally excessive join/quits are frowned upon anyways
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<parsnip> not ignored actually, but /filter'ed
<kakuhen> parsnip: sounds like a good idea. I think there's also issues with minion where it keeps reconnecting every minute. To be sure the problem's gone for good I'd say a one week ban tbh
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<kakuhen> no guarantees on the maintainer acting soon
<phoe> afair someone from #sbcl has control over them, I've reposted the issue there
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<phoe> it seems like there are two instances of specbot and minion and they are GHOSTing each other for control, or something like that
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<phoe> maybe an issue can be made on https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/issues too
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<phoe> lemme do that
<kakuhen> phoe to the rescue
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<kakuhen> btw i really liked reading your condition system implementation in java
<phoe> issue made
<phoe> kakuhen: glad to hear this
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<parsnip> previously went on from 12pm 10-21 to 6am 10-22, then started again about 5:30pm today (UTC)
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<parsnip> thank you
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