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<yitzi>
Ha!
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<mfiano>
Hmm, I think I found another LOOP conformance problem I never knew about in MIT LOOP and derivatives. At the very least, it is probably a WSCL ammendment.
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<Bike>
what is it?
<mfiano>
Well
<mfiano>
Given a form like: (loop for x = 1 initially (print x) repeat 3 collect x)
<mfiano>
This prints NIL. However, unless I'm misunderstanding reading multiple sections of the standard that imply this should print 1, then it is not conforming, or needs to be better specified in WSCL
<mfiano>
"The code for any initially clauses is collected into one progn in the order in which the clauses appear in the source. The collected code is executed once in the loop prologue after any implicit variable initializations."
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<mfiano>
"The initially construct causes the supplied compound-forms to be evaluated in the loop prologue, which precedes all loop code except for initial settings supplied by constructs with, for, or as. The code for any initially clauses is executed in the order in which the clauses appeared in the loop."
<mfiano>
<end>
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<mfiano>
Hello beach. Good timing. I was just mentioning a possible LOOP conformance issue and at the very least a WSCL entry.
<mfiano>
I don't want to spam all those lines again, so you can read the log
<mfiano>
Oh you were here, just under a different nick.
<mason>
beach: o/
<beach>
mfiano: I'll read it, but I am working on my coffee right now, so give me some time.
<mfiano>
beach: Sure
<Bike>
huh, i see. i've never actually used initially.
<mfiano>
If my reading is correct, both for and initially should be initialized sequentially by default in the prologue.
<beach>
ecraven: What Bike said. Comments and such are read when the CST protocol is used, so then comments and other skipped things are returned as separate CSTs with their own types.
<mfiano>
So why is it that I cannot access a previous value with initially?
<Bike>
i haven't looked at it thoroughly but your logic makes sense to me.
<mfiano>
I couldn't find any definition for "initialized" though. It doesn't actually say "bound".
<beach>
mfiano: I'll consider it a potential WSCL issue. Thanks.
<mfiano>
I wonder what SICL LOOP produces as a side effect
<beach>
I can tell you. Give me a second...
<beach>
It prints 1.
<mfiano>
beach: Thanks. Because I could not define the word "initialized" in the context of the standard, I cannot tell if this is a conformance issue or just in need of some clarification. One could take it to mean "bound" or "storage allocated" or anything.
<mfiano>
beach: SICL LOOP does what I would expect, but this is ambiguous as far as the standard goes.
<beach>
I'll read it sometime after I finish my coffee.
<mfiano>
I stumbled on this because I never actually used INITIALLY. I am currently iterating :IN a list and :FROM 0 in parallel, and doing something only when the latter is ZEROP. I thought I could simplify that logic by using INITIALLY, but it appears I cannot, at least not portably.
<mfiano>
I just spent nearly an hour scrutinizing the standard. Time to go back to being productive.
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<ecraven>
beach: what's the CST protocol?
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<beach>
ecraven: Concrete Syntax Tree. It wraps the S-expressions in standard objects that contain other things too like source location information.
<ecraven>
ah, thanks!
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<beach>
So then the class of the CST determines whether it is an atom, a CONS cell, a comment, or something else.
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<beach>
We use this in the SICL compiler to do source tracking. I think Clasp is doing the same thing.
<beach>
And we use it in Second Climacs so that we don't skip comments and stuff when we read the contents of an editor buffer.
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<ecraven>
so source code is not "just" a list any more, but more complex data structure
<beach>
Exactly. Though not very complex. It has a 1-1 mapping to S-expressions, aside from comments and such.
<beach>
The nesting is the same.
<ecraven>
is this part of the eclector source code?
<beach>
CST is in a separate repository, but the part of Eclector that uses it depends on that repository.
<beach>
I believe there is even some documentation.
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<scymtym>
just to be clear: a client can customize eclector to produce any kind of parse result. CSTs and the concrete syntax tree library are just one possibility that happens to be supported out of the box
<beach>
Indeed, thanks for pointing that out.
<ecraven>
so eclector is a reader that can call all sorts of constructors for whatever it's reading?
<beach>
Absolutely.
<beach>
In particular, you can configure it to not intern tokens that look like symbols.
<beach>
And you can configure it to "intern" them in your own data structure.
<mfiano>
It is one of the most interesting and useful Lisp projects in the last...well, a long time. I haven't had a chance to play with it much.
<ecraven>
has beach written a paper about it that I might conveniently read?
<mfiano>
scymtym gave a talk about it at OLM
<mfiano>
Proably an accompanying paper but you'd have to ask him.
<rotateq>
If I remember correctly there's also good documentation that ships with it.
<beach>
mfiano: It was a necessity for SICL and Second Climacs to have something like that. But what used to be the SICL reader was quite embryonic compared to the finished product that scymtym turned it into.
<mfiano>
beach: That's great. scymtym does a lot of really good work indeed.
<beach>
Absolutely.
<ecraven>
cool, thanks!
<beach>
Too bad scymtym has a dayjob and a family. :)
<scymtym>
interesting phrasing, but yeah :)
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<jdz>
scymtym: I'm happy you have a day job and a family :)
<scymtym>
i mean, removing the family part from the discussion, i wouldn't mind doing CL stuff instead of dayjob, but that doesn't seem to be among the realistic possibilities
<beach>
It could be, but it would not be without risk of course. I think it might be possible to gather enough financial support for the dayjob of one person. But I can't promise that of course.
<ecraven>
beach: the problem is probably long-term viability, right? with a family, people probably plan for long-term job security, not just a few years or so
<beach>
Exactly.
<ecraven>
one of the tech billionaires should just donate a million or two a year to CL advancement :P
<beach>
That would solve the problem for a decade or so, yes.
<beach>
Or, we could convince the EU to cough up that amount.
<rotateq>
If we argue it's good for agriculture, maybe then it's effective.
<beach>
Now, you make me depressed.
<rotateq>
beach: Sorry, didn't want that, but it seems to be one of EU's main concern for investement.
<beach>
That's what's so depressing, yes.
<beach>
But it's all off topic so let's drop it.
<rotateq>
Of course.
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<contrapunctus>
scymtym: start a Lisp company? :> Pretty sure there will be a number of people willing to join. Make it remote, so you can have your pick of employees from across the world + cut down office costs.
<rotateq>
I would need more time to get better and maybe join. :)
<rotateq>
(but this is always based on reciprocity and a need)
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<Shinmera>
scymtym: I'm hoping to switch to a "minimal income by way of patreon/etc" model after Kandria is out. Then I could dedicate much more time for worthwhile Lisp things again instead of *gestures around* whatever it is I'm doing right now.
<rotateq>
Shinmera: When will it be out again?
<Shinmera>
Kickstarter is starting in almost to the minute a week from now.
<Shinmera>
And final release is planned for November.
<rotateq>
cool, so I can tell more people
<Shinmera>
Please do :)
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<scymtym>
Shinmera: i have considered something like that from time to time. i hope it will work for you
<Shinmera>
In the long term I'm hoping for UBI, but that's a long shot :)
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<flip214>
Shinmera: at our age it'll be called "Rente" ;)
<Shinmera>
If I can even pay enough in to get any :(
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<lisp123>
I was thinking of representing a buffer as follows: each line is a separate object, consisting of a string; the buffer is a vector of lines, when I want to add/remove lines, I create a new vector and reuse the unaffected lines
<Shinmera>
Sounds expensive to add new lines at the beginning.
<lisp123>
Shinmera: but as I'm storing each line as a separate object, I'd not be copying all the strings but a reference to each line
<Shinmera>
Sure. You still need to copy the vector though.
<Shinmera>
Very possible it's not a concern, though.
<lisp123>
I should profile to see how expensive that is
<Shinmera>
I thought beach implemented a protocol for buffers. Have you had a look at that?
<lisp123>
Briefly yes, but it was too advanced for me
<scymtym>
regarding immutable data structures for editors, i saw https://github.com/arximboldi/ewig at some point. didn't take a closer look yet
<lisp123>
scymtym: oh thank you. I was going to raise the immutable point next
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<beach>
"too advanced"? Hmm.
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<lisp123>
splay trees or something like that
<beach>
The point is that the protocol is well defined, documented, and tested. The implementation should not be visible to client code.
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<beach>
lisp123: I guess you don't trust abstractions?
<lisp123>
What would make you say that
<beach>
Splay trees are part of the implementation, and since their existence is a problem to you, it must be the case that implementation details can make you reject a library.
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<lisp123>
But I never said I rejected a library
<lisp123>
In fact I was giving a compliment, and only wanted to do something simple on my end for my toy projects
<beach>
My bad. It sure seemed like that. You are implementing your own, and not using this one because it is "too advanced".
<lisp123>
No worries, not meant that way
<lisp123>
I was playing around with immutability, and I barely understand binary trees on a good day
<beach>
Why do you need to understand binary trees?
<lisp123>
weren't you doing some sort of balancing of binary trees
<beach>
I don't recall any sort of binary tree or balancing being mentioned in the protocol or in the documentation. It should be an implementation detail. So again, you seem to need to understand implementation details to use a library. That is why I hypothesized that you don't trust abstractions.
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<lisp123>
oh my bad, looks like another implementation used splay trees
<beach>
Cluffer USES splay trees. But they should not be EXPOSED TO CLIENT CODE as far as I know. If they are, then I have made a mistake in my documentation and/or in myh protocol design.
<lisp123>
No they are definitely not. But as I said, I was playing around with buffer representations and immutability, not writing client code
<beach>
I see.
<lisp123>
The context was I was having a think of concurrency
<beach>
So "too advanced" should have been "not immutable"?
<beach>
Let's just drop it.
<lisp123>
Well I don't fully understand how editors represent buffers, so I wouldn't know if yours was immutable or not
<lisp123>
Is it? And would it be suitable for multiple users editing the same file (online collaboration)
<lisp123>
The use of time stamps suggests something may be possible
<beach>
It is not immutable. Simultaneous editing would be possible. A lock would have to be introduced on the line level to be used when a line is modified, and on the entire buffer when lines are inserted or deleted.
<Guest74>
I would think you would want each person to have their own lines in a shared buffer to easily compare.
<jdz>
Or maybe it would be time to read up on "Conflict-free Replicated Data Types"3.
<Guest74>
is there are library for lisp?
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<utis>
does anyone happen to know how to finish a cl-readline line from lisp? (finish = the equivalent of pressing return in the console.) the doc. says that this can be done by setting *done* to non-nil, but that doesn't do anything.
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<lisp123>
jdz: thanks for the link
<lisp123>
beach: thanks for the explanation
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<utis>
(nevermind)
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<utis>
is there a reason for alexandria's lack of if-let*?
<White_Flame>
because there's not really a singular 'else'
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<utis>
sorry, why not? wouldn't that just be the 3rd argument as with if-let?
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<White_Flame>
each binding clause would be tested to fail in order, instead of in parallel
<White_Flame>
but yeah, an if-let* could be created wher all failures pop to the else clause
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<Shinmera>
me no likey any of those test-and-bind thingies.
<Shinmera>
double that if they're anaphoric
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<ecraven>
how do I read all forms in a file, until EOF and gather them in a list?
<ecraven>
is there anything like `read-file', or is it loop to the rescue?
<ecraven>
ah, can't actually do that, there are package names in the dump where the packages don't exist :-/
<ecraven>
any way to tell read to just not intern *anything* it is reading?
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<mfiano>
ecraven: uiop:read-file-forms, and nope.
<ecraven>
thanks ;)
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<Nilby>
*read-intern* advocacy
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