<Josh_2>
Can metaclasses solve all problems? Maybe
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<jeosol>
Good morning all! Been a while since I have been here. Hope everyone is doing well ...
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<Josh_2>
Hi :sunglasses:
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<seok>
Hello jeosol
<jamesmartinez>
Josh_2: nice shades, where did you get them?
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<Josh_2>
MELPA
<jamesmartinez>
:)
<jeosol>
seok: I am doing well
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<jeosol>
phoe: are the Lisp talks still being organized or it's on a volunteer basis?
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<beach>
jeosol: I think phoe is taking some time off, but if there is a suggested presentation for the online Lisp meeting, I suspect he would be willing to organize it.
<jeosol>
hi beach!
<jeosol>
hope you are well. been a while.
<jeosol>
Thanks for the info.
<beach>
I am fine, thank you. You too I hope.
<jeosol>
yeah, I am. Been a way for a while due to busy schedule on other stuffs
<beach>
I understand.
<jeosol>
but schedule has dropped for a few months - was just busy with some other non-CL stuff.
<jeosol>
Though software is never finished, my project is done for a few months now, I usually make small changes, and upgrade SBCL compilers at month end and fix any issues that crop up
<beach>
Congratulations!
<jeosol>
beach: thanks beach, you and the lispers here were helpful in that regard especially resolving issues with threads, CLOS, and macros
<beach>
Great!
<jeosol>
I am looking to deploy the workers which are essentially CL repls. I tried docker, other's have proposed kubernetes which I hear has a high learning schedule but has benefits of auto-scaling up and down (I am a noob)
<jeosol>
I just wanted to test it by putting a worker and try to load it. I can run things on a small box and it holds well.
<jeosol>
I don't think people appreciate CL enough: so many aspects to love from developer productivity, CLOS, ..., to great performance on number crunching application
<jeosol>
but I still get people say Lisp? what is that? and why I use emacs. I have since learned not to engage anymore - can't lose brain cells to this type of arguments
<jeosol>
by the way, how is your project coming along. I definitely has a huge coverage area
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<Josh_2>
What is your project jeosol ?
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<beach>
jeosol: Are you asking me?
<beach>
jeosol: Yes, I stopped engaging a long time ago. The only way to try to convince (some) people is to show good work.
<beach>
jeosol: SICL is making progress, but very slow progress right now. It's just a matter of lack of inspiration. I am not working on anything else very actively right now.
<jeosol>
beach: yes I was asking you
<seok>
there are more obvious things that are clearly more inefficient that the society keeps
<seok>
like qwerty
<jeosol>
beach: I agree, engaging in that discussion is frustrating - so I took advice from the likes of you and others. I can't be trying to convince someone who doesn't understand what I am doing. They say why I don't use python like others , lol
<beach>
jeosol: Yeah, a very common situation.
<seok>
python? Are you sure you are talking to a serious programmer?
<beach>
One silver lining is that the people who come here are usually more open minded than the ones you are referring to.
<jeosol>
Josh_2: my project is something that will be really had to describe as it does a lot of things: Optimization, Machine Learning (limited, but can call scikit-learn libraries via exernal Python scripts, Physics Simulation, ...)
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<jeosol>
seok: haha, I know. Some of the applications don't make sense to even use Python, I mean the latter has it's place
<jeosol>
beach: You mean lack of inspiration -- hopefully it can come back. I know how that is
<beach>
It will come back.
<Josh_2>
I have been slowly chipping at some very boring code, almost done and can go work on something I started a while ago but had to put to one side
<Josh_2>
Its nice to work on newer projects where there is a lot more freedom in design, thats the fun part imo
<jeosol>
seok: many people use Python, either for DS/ML/AI work so it's common with many new developers.
<Josh_2>
oh and I guess coming back and refactoring code into something more flexible
<Josh_2>
But writing code to edit objects in bknr using HTML is just boring.
<jeosol>
Josh_2: I agree, I work on different parts of my application depending on how I feel, some parts are bad to work in due to poor initial design - sometimes, I just bite the bullet and go through a day of refactoring work
<seok>
yeah, python is good when there are prebuilt libraries written in C or something that python is calling from
<jeosol>
Josh_2: you read my thought on the refactoring part
<Josh_2>
A large scale refactor is normally quite pleasant
<seok>
Yes I agree Python is the quickest to learn to get started in ML, that's
<seok>
how I started
<jeosol>
seok: I think that's for most of the ML work, numpy, jax and tensorflow having underlying C or C++ implementation
<seok>
Yeah
<jeosol>
seok: great. Are you working in ML now ?
<seok>
Not at the moment, I want to steer away from Deep learning for a while
<jeosol>
any CL projects you are working on?
<seok>
Deep learing is great for a lot of things but I think it's a bit too overcrowded. I don't like doing things others are doing
<jeosol>
beach: I suppose there will be some critical mass on the SICL projects soon.
<seok>
At the moment I'm writing a drawing software for personal use
<beach>
jeosol: I am still working on bootstrapping with the goal of creating an executable file, but there are tons of minor things that have to be taken care of as well.
<jeosol>
seok: haha, that's funny - the different frameworks and architectures that come out everyday makes the area like a joke now. Everyone and their mother is open sourcing language models every day
<seok>
by language models do you mean NLP?
<jeosol>
beach: my short coming is that I am not a compiler guy (my usual excuse) but recently finished the algorithms course so I write use appropriate data structures, write better and efficient code
<jeosol>
seok: yes
<jeosol>
it's almost like the space is not much science any more, tweak this, tweak that, get 0.1 % accuracy with massive GPUs (millions of dollars compute time) and then declare victory
<seok>
I am learning linguistics slowly because I want to try developing a non-nn language parser and meaning representation someday
<beach>
jeosol: No excuse needed. It's just a matter of taking the time to read the literature. But one has to have the time and the interest in the subject, of course.
<jeosol>
someone must be working with AI here using CL. I remember a company, mind.ai said they were developing a chat bot using CL NLP
<seok>
Yeah I read their whitepaper, are you Korean?
<seok>
A non-NN NLP can do so much more than a chatbot
<seok>
I think they know but they just want a quick product for investors
<jeosol>
beach: I agree with that. I probably be a better coder if try to get deeper on implementation side. Remember when hayley implemented some hash lib (?) in the past - I was reading about hashing and methods to avoid collisions etc
<jeosol>
seok: no, not korean. But the company is korean
<beach>
jeosol: Yes, I see.
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<jeosol>
seok: I don't have much NLP experience but I got an old CL book on Natural Language Process in Lisp by Gerald Gazdar and Chris Mellish
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<seok>
Well if you know a book like that, I bet you are more knowledgeable than I am in the area
<jeosol>
Oh no, I just got it out of the shelf now to look at the name and authors. I have not worked with it at all. It was something I am interested in and saw on ebay
<jeosol>
I want to learn NLP with CL but haven't gotten around to it.
<seok>
Well owning a book is halfway there to start reading it
<seok>
I haven't even got there
<seok>
Do you want to try GOFAI NLP like me?
<jeosol>
yeah,
<jeosol>
seok: I was reading prolog and CL to build small production systems
<jeosol>
I hear data-driven and connectionist is all the craze these days
<seok>
I think it requires quite a bit of linguistic knowledge as well if you want to deal with human languages
<jeosol>
that is true. My initial focus was developing an expert system if I can capture known and use that to call my CL code to do evaluations
<jeosol>
but I will settle for a proof of concept by using Python as a front stack, and call CL
<seok>
Oh, you mean programming with human language?
<jeosol>
It's more like, medical diagnosis tools in the 80's. Where you go with rules, if this, then that, if that, then this. .. from facts to conclusions
<jeosol>
but I hear the systems are brittle and hard to build
<jeosol>
someone here must know about Cyc
<seok>
It gets harder depending on how natural you allow inputs to be
<seok>
Human language is more ambiguous than average people think
<jeosol>
well, I just want to use simple prompts. Please tell me input for X, I capture it, ... like that
<jeosol>
Free speech will be too hard for me, and it's not a goal of mine
<seok>
Yeah, if you are just defining specific commands it's not too hard
<seok>
Your goal is to parse text not speech right?
<jeosol>
I think it's easy that way. no backtracking to catch errors. If users give a string intead of an int, agent should now and ask for better input. This is probably easy to do with some loop I guess
<jeosol>
I want to try text first, then later speech to text
<jeosol>
For example, I can say: "evaluate the square of 2" and I should be able to parse it for the function and argument to the function
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<seok>
I'm not sure speech to text without deep learning exists at the moment
<seok>
Such technology requires acoustics
<jeosol>
that's true. speech to text for me is way out. Even the text to command. I don't have time to pursue it anymore
<seok>
What's interesting for me is the reverse of that, GOFAI speech generation
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<White_Flame>
I've been wanting to build a solid gofai nlp system for years as well, still designing & reading up
<seok>
If it's done non-NN way, it means the parameters to generate voice acoustics is known, that means nobody needs voice actors anymore
<White_Flame>
but for actual nlp, you need pretty "real" AI
<White_Flame>
and yeah, I've fiddled with cyc, did some reverse engineering on it, etc
<seok>
what is cyc?
<White_Flame>
the biggest gofai ai project
<jeosol>
White_Flame: thanks for chiming in and commenting about Cyc
<jeosol>
what framework are you planning to use for your gofai NLP system?
<White_Flame>
their goal is to have logical representation of "common sense knowledge"about the world
<jeosol>
or language
<White_Flame>
to allow the types of implicit knowledge inference that people do
<seok>
Oh, I must read up on this
<White_Flame>
jeosol: well,it's complicated. :) But certainly lisp and forward chaining systems
<jeosol>
White_Flame: that's one thing that made me interested in it, but I met a MIT AI person who said Lenat's approach is flawed
<White_Flame>
cyc is a pile of technical debt
<seok>
How did they solve the ambiguity of base copulas in language?
<seok>
Do you know?
<White_Flame>
nlp is a separate module in cyc
<jeosol>
White_Flame: I imagine it is, and they have been adding to it and extending it. I remember seeing a job posting like 2 years ago
<White_Flame>
yep, they're still hiring, iirc
<White_Flame>
basically they do a lot of inferene work per client they get in order to have it run their work quickly
<White_Flame>
in terms of finding where the inference gets confused or spins off infinitely looking for answers, an hardcoding modules to help it solve those problems more directly
<White_Flame>
their knowledge base & ontology of common sense is considered pretty complete by now, iirc
<White_Flame>
dmiles was the resident cyc expert, he worked for & with cycorp a lot, but I don't see him in here now
<White_Flame>
but anyway, the more I get into nlp, and all the implicit communication that happens between humans with it, the less I consider it a logical programming problem
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<White_Flame>
so I'm trying to do more modeling of the mind, trying to have it do inductive reasoning and triggering memories of similar things (of any scale) as 2 of the more important bootstrapping facilities it seems to nee
<White_Flame>
d
<White_Flame>
no sentence truly stands alone
<seok>
The same sentence from different context can mean different things
<seok>
Are you dealing with the pragmatics too?
<White_Flame>
yep
<White_Flame>
(re the sentence context)
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<White_Flame>
the ultimate description of the "intelligence" I'd like to build is the ship computer from tng/voyager
<seok>
How should this machine determine what's correct to keep and wrong to discard?
<jeosol>
White_Flame: good to know the KB and ontology is mostly complete
<White_Flame>
where the human doesn't have to bend english for the machine to understand it
<White_Flame>
seok: it has to "make sense" in context
<jeosol>
White_Flame: you know dmiles right?
<White_Flame>
yep, for years online
<jeosol>
sorry, I just saw your earlier message
<jeosol>
I did interface with him when I was trying to get into the space. I will probably get to the logicmoo discord group again
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<seok>
The problem with "developing the mind" I see which seems to be popular in ML world for a while is that it is congruent with the fundamental philosophical questions
<White_Flame>
I find cyc very difficult to get into
<seok>
Which I don't see anyone having a determined clear answer to
<White_Flame>
seok: there's 2 ways to word that, one is an emergent mind (ML statistical blub), the other is designing features of the mind
<jeosol>
White_Flame: this is a very interesting project. How different is it from the approach Miles and his group and working on? And is it possible to crowd fund it, gather a small team, etc
<jeosol>
seok: seems interested in the same area
<White_Flame>
dmiles has his very specific model of the mind as parallel streams of tokenize narrative. I'm not really convinced of that model
<White_Flame>
but that's common in AI land; everybody has their own vision of what the missing/basic ingredient is
<seok>
Yes
<White_Flame>
and only time will tell who is right :)
<seok>
And it's often difficult to determine which model is better
<White_Flame>
regarding gathering a team, that makes it difficult, too
<seok>
yes, everyone wants to work on their idea
<seok>
Haha
<jeosol>
White_Flame: I agree, team has to be cohesive
<White_Flame>
but my work is not just coding yet, a lot of design & modeling still being done
<White_Flame>
but building up stables of tools in CL in the meantime as well
<jeosol>
mind.ai guys said they are developing a unique and new system, I don't remember the details, but they use SBCL and Lispworks I think
<White_Flame>
as well as dredging up old papers from the 60s-80s and their respective tools in the fiel
<White_Flame>
d
<seok>
They use both? why?
<White_Flame>
I don't talk about my system much, because I don't think it's useful to make claims about speculative AI projects until they show actual results
<White_Flame>
been too much of that over the years and it never accomplishes anything positive
<seok>
Is this NLP system your primary interest atm White_Flame?
<jeosol>
I have no idea. I suppose perhaps to target certain systems with Lispworks (I am not expert here) where it generates some exes?
<jeosol>
White_Flame: I like that approach, better to have some results
<seok>
jeosol: yeah lispworks is quite stable at generating exes for consumer OS
<White_Flame>
seok: NLP is one facet of the AI understanding. this all came about as a tool in service of automated reverse engineering work I've been working on for a long time
<jeosol>
seok: I suspect that's why. They probably use SBCL where possible for dev and test, and the use Lispworks for that. I only used free Lispworks version long time ago
<White_Flame>
but I believe organized thought is rooted in language. non-language thinking/understanding exists, but does not scale without language IMO
<seok>
automated reverse engineering, like parsing major programming language code and interpreting it?
<White_Flame>
binary reverse engineering, which could also be applied to bytecodes, textual formats, et
<seok>
Ah
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<seok>
A general binary reverse engineering system? That's a holy grail
<White_Flame>
IMO current systems suck
<White_Flame>
they allow humans to do more work, but they don't do the thinking work for the humans
<White_Flame>
but the thinking that that requires is pretty much general ai
<White_Flame>
conceptualized, ability to dialogue about it (and learn & receive feedback/changes), and explainable
<seok>
It's interesting that you've thought that NLP will be a significant tool for binary parsing
<Nilby>
one would think it should be obvious by now, that for abiliites like language, it's not possible to have >94% person ablity, without having a person. chess, sure. driving, maybe. but language and thinking, you it can only be fake or real, and straddling the line is unethical torture
<White_Flame>
it's not, but it's a significant tool for communicating broad information to the machine
<seok>
Nilby: how do you measure the proficiency of language ability?
<seok>
Quantify*
<seok>
that 94% looks pretty darn specific
<Nilby>
seok: usually tests, like in school
<seok>
what test? what is being measured here? how like-human an NLP machine can generate human language?
<Nilby>
but passing a secondary school test doesn't really make for acceptable language proficiency, as we can observe
<seok>
that's what I would think: that such test to quantify language ability as a percentage comparison of a human's would be extremely difficult or impossible to produce
<seok>
So your comment was quite surprising
<White_Flame>
there are nlp challenges out there, and code struggles to get over 95% accuracy, even for things like part-of-speech tagging over large corpuses
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<White_Flame>
I think the state of the art is probably like 97% now, but even then that's like 1 in 30 word/phrases/etc are misunderstood
<seok>
I don't think part-of-speech is difficult, sure there are ambiguous sentences but syntax trees have been around for very long time?
<seok>
Are they still having trouble with it?
<White_Flame>
yep
<White_Flame>
and one of the biggest challenges, where AI/context/common-sense come in are resolving pronouns
<Nilby>
they will always have trouble with it, because language is deeply dependent on cognition, it doesn't make logical sense to have a person cognition which isn't a person
<seok>
Determining what the pronoun is referring to?
<White_Flame>
"The trophy would not fit in the suitcase because it was too big". What is "it"?
<White_Flame>
vs "The trophy would roll around inside the suitcase because it was too big"
<seok>
Ah that requires knowledge that trophy is something that goes in the suitcase
<White_Flame>
I think some POS problems require that level of knowledge, too
<seok>
Are companies like Cyc still having such problems?
<White_Flame>
I'm not sure how much NLP cyc uses
<seok>
I'd think they'd have solved ambiguity problems like that by now after decades of work
<White_Flame>
they have built stuff in the past, but most of their work is with data
<White_Flame>
already in a data or logic representation
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<seok>
It's fascinating how we have made so much progress in some areas of NLP yet made so little progress in others
<hayley>
White_Flame: You mentioned automated reverse engineering; I've had "interactive tool for de-obfuscating JS" planned for a while, but never made much of an advance on it.
<hayley>
There's some obvious stuff, like giving variables better names (in my experience, slot names are less frequently obfuscated, oddly enough), and then partial/abstract interpretation and constant folding would be useful too.
<Nilby>
yes, the difficultly of that shows there's some amount of art and thought, even in JS code
<hayley>
I disagree with that. It's more evidence that, while there are infinitely many programs that have equivalent semantics, quite few are pleasing to read.
<seok>
If you can define and program "pleasing to read" then your task will be better defined
<Nilby>
pleasing to read is where the meaning beyond the semantics lays
<hayley>
The only definition I can provide is the lack of obfuscation techniques, which is not a very good definition.
<seok>
Like I said before that's one of the fundamental questions in philosophy
<seok>
what is good?
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<seok>
The axiological question
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<Nilby>
in one way, the asm that sbcl spits out, is more "good" at distilling my inention than my source
<hayley>
Is it?
<hayley>
One counter-example could be constant folding, if a more complex expression conveys my intent better than a folded (yet still equivalent) expression. A compiler would try to generate code with constants folded, however.
<seok>
well, the primary motif of eastern philosophy is balance, that there are good and bad sides in everything
<seok>
Being specific can be good in some ways, whereas being concise is good in others
<seok>
There is no determined answer to these questions, but as a programmer we need to make a choice
<Nilby>
sometimes i look at disassemble, and realize a profusion of macros is just an "add" and that's what i should have wrote, but of course most looking at disassemble is struggle to figure out what it's doing
<Nilby>
so yes, balance, and choice
<seok>
You look at the binary of your compilations?
<Nilby>
sometimes, especially when i see people here arguing about what is fastest way to do X
<seok>
Geez
<Nilby>
but my real speed problems don't yield so easily
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<utis>
Shinmera: no, i'll check those out
<utis>
are they better than portaudio?
<Shinmera>
Well they provide a lot more and a lot more of them is in Lisp.
<Shinmera>
Particularly all the interfacing to operating systems is written in lisp code.
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<utis>
Shinmera: the link to the examples directory is broken
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<utis>
on the cl-mixed page
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<Guest94>
Is Emacs the best editor for programming lisp?
<Guest94>
And how to build GUI app
<beach>
Currently, Emacs is probably the best choice, yes.
<beach>
I recommend McCLIM for GUI applications, but some people say it doesn't look "modern" enough.
<beach>
The advantage of McCLIM is that it is written entirely in Common Lisp, so no need to do foreign functions.
<Guest94>
Ok I will install Emacs
<Guest94>
Can I skin McClim?
<beach>
Not currently, no.
<Guest94>
Ah ok
<contrapunctus>
Guest94: you can control the colors in your output, it can look decent.
<contrapunctus>
Guest94: something I'm working on -
<contrapunctus>
Guest94: my application is at an early stage.
<Guest94>
Its a text editor?
<contrapunctus>
Guest94: you can check out the McCLIM website for screenshots of mature applications made in it.
<random-nick>
FFI-based options for gui include ltk for tk, commonqt5 for qt5
<random-nick>
there are also a bunch of different bindings for gtk
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<random-nick>
not sure if there are any out yet for gtk4 and qt6
<Guest94>
I am a beginner in programmign
<Guest94>
I only read on hacker news that lisp is the best language
<Nilby>
don't belive everything on hacker news
<beach>
Guest94: I would not start with a GUI application then. Those are tricky in any language.
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<Guest94>
ok
<Guest94>
I want to create user forms for people to fill out
<beach>
That might require some GUI library, but I don't recommend learning an language by starting with a complex application, especially if you are new to programming. Having said that, I know that some people do it that way.
<Guest94>
ok
<Guest94>
I will read online what to do
<Guest94>
Thank you all!
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<beach>
Yesterday I hinted that I was going to avoid lengthy discussions in the channel on topics such as Common Lisp style or how to organize a system. I said that I would perhaps instead create some web pages that summarize how I prefer to do things, and then not discuss the contents further. Here: http://metamodular.com/IRC/modules.html is an example of the kind of page I had in mind.
<_death>
but if you give such a link, further discussion is quite possible
<beach>
But I won't participate.
<beach>
One lengthy discussion on one topic can easily take longer than it takes to create such a page, so I am hoping to not only avoid the frustration of some of these discussions, but also to simply save time.
<_death>
I guess you could try that, but I'm not sure it will lead to the desired outcome
<beach>
I should have said "avoid feeling that I had to participate in lengthy discussion...".
<beach>
How do you know what the desired outcome is?
<beach>
Are you saying I won't be able to control myself?
<_death>
I assumed, like you mention, it's to "avoid the frustration".. by not participating when a conflicting view is shown, the outcome may be analogous to "sulking in a corner"
<contrapunctus>
beach: nice page. A web post certainly has the advantage that you're able to communicate your preferences clearly (rather than split over a long chat), and it's easier to discover and cite than a chat log (despite the very handy log service on tymoon.eu).
<_death>
one advantage could be that you can describe potential rebuttals and resolve them in your long form text
<beach>
contrapunctus: Thanks. That nicely summarizes my thinking.
<_death>
it could be in the form of a FAQ
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<jackdaniel>
beach: re linked example (cluffer), it seems that it names the system with a keyword :cluffer - asdf internally downcases it and stores system names as strings (not much unlike defpackage), so perhaps #:cluffer or "cluffer" would be cleaner
<beach>
Indeed. Thanks.
<jackdaniel>
sure
<_death>
I'll be waiting to read some of the unwritten texts ;)
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<contrapunctus>
same
<contrapunctus>
Additionally, I was splitting up source files into multiple smaller files the other day, and noticed that the existing resources on the subject of writing system definitions are a bit lacking (I checked cl-cookbook, the ASDF manual, and the "writing libraries" section on lisp-lang.org). beach's post might fill that gap to an extent, although I intend to contribute some improvements to cl-cookbook
<contrapunctus>
too.
<jackdaniel>
speaking of asdf system names, I think that using a string is better, because usually programmers will expect that strings designated by symbols will be upcased (and that is not the case in asdf, so it goes against expectations)
<beach>
jackdaniel: I'll consider that as a subject of another page.
<jackdaniel>
that's why I usually put a system name as the string
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<jackdaniel>
I'm sure that your page will grow; I'm mostly saying it as a general remark for others
<atgreen>
Not to sound ungrateful and demanding, but I just noticed that this is the longest we've been waiting for a quicklisp update in about 5 years. Do any of you have any insight into why? Or is there's anything we can do to help move things along? Or is the CL community just slowing down.. so not much new content?
<contrapunctus>
atgreen: maintainer suffered a loss in his family.
<atgreen>
oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
<lisp123>
how to open a running sbcl instance on the server?
<jackdaniel>
you may either open it in a tmux or screen session, or write a service/unit/rc file to start it as a daemon
<contrapunctus>
lisp123: do you mean how to connect to a running remote SBCL process from SLIME?
<jackdaniel>
atgreen: are you by chance the author of libffi?
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<jackdaniel>
either way, if you are - thanks for it, it is a wonderful project:)
<atgreen>
yes, I am!
<atgreen>
your welcome!
<jackdaniel>
heh
<atgreen>
libffi is like quicklisp in one way... if I stopped releasing it, I'm not sure who would pick it up...
<jackdaniel>
there are many projects like that
<jackdaniel>
btw if you are interested in frequent updates, there is a separate quicklisp distribution "ultralisp" that takes packages without any qa directly from repositories
<jackdaniel>
(https://ultralisp.org/ - it uses the same software quicklisp does but is not as resilent to regressions)
<mfiano>
For that I would recommend CLPM
<yitzi>
And maybe someday CLPI
* Nilby
too is thankful for the quite essential libffi
<jackdaniel>
for now it is far from conformance it seems (no clos, loop, format etc)
<Nilby>
jackdaniel: i wonder why they wouldn't use the old cheat of using the clos/loop/format/pprint in lower lisp
<jackdaniel>
if they were all macros that expand to a language subset then it would probably work, but that's not true; clos requires runtime functionality, the same applies to loop, format and pprint
<jackdaniel>
if you just use sbcl to bootstrap, then you can't rip these runtime parts and use them after the implementation is bootstrapped (but you may use it during bootstrapping of course)
<Nilby>
the initial version of all of these were written in pre-CL lisp, with any specific runtime support. of course that's not the best way to do it.
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<Nilby>
but lisps at the time also had a lot of other weird features
<yitzi>
Dear g-d, lau? Did someone ask for Common Lisp in LuaTeX?!?!?
<tychoish>
that sounds awesome
<Nilby>
this one line help me understand what they're going for in LCL: (defun eval (forms) (lua (lua-call "load" (compile-to-lua forms)) "()"))
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<White_Flame>
hayley: yes, that's why programming tools at that level really requires some real measure of AI, because any good communication with humans requires nearly thinking like a human in order to generate a clear, appropriate, and understandable representation about the user-level semantics that the code is implementing
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<lisp123>
jackdaniel: contrapunctus thanks
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<contrapunctus>
...I guess it was about launching rather than connecting, then.
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<Bike>
is there a way with CFFI's defbitfield/grovel bitfield to handle multiple-bit fields? a "flag" takes up two bits and has four distinct states in my case.
<Bike>
obviously i could break it into multiple binary fields, but then it doesn't match the C API
<_death>
you could specify some values explicitly.. does that help?
<Bike>
what do you mean?
<_death>
like (:foo #x1100) .. cffi:foreign-bitfield-value may work as expected, though cffi:foreign-bitfield-symbols would not.. basically there's no support for such a thing afaik
<yitzi>
Bike: so you have an enumeration embedded in a bitfield?
<Bike>
yitzi: more or less. the C is like { LLVMDIFlagPrivate=1, LLVMDIFlagProtected=2, LLVMDIFlagPublic=3, LLVMDIFlagFwdDecl = 1 << 2, LLVMDIFlagAppleBlock = 1 << 3, etc } with the etc being more actual flags
<Bike>
so it would be nice if i could have cffi translate stuff like (:public :fwd-decl)
<yitzi>
I am not an expert on CFFI, but that sounds like custom foreign type translation.
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<utis>
i'm getting an error from charms when i've closed a tmux window and reconnected: (cl-charms::%cehck-status -1 :error-message "Error in curses call from function cl-charms/low-level:mvwaddstr (received err).") does anyone happen to know what the problem is?
<utis>
(i.e. i've closed the terminal window and expected that that shouldn't affect the tmux pane)
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<ashln>
I'd like to read a constant number of bytes from a stream (or until EOF), like the interface provided by read(2). Is the only interface to binary file reading to do so one byte at a time with read-byte?