klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<mcrod> is it possible that linux can just fucking work for fucking once
<mcrod> older than I am and it still can't get fucking anything right that windows and apple solved before I was born
<mcrod> jesus christ
<mcrod> mac*
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<heat> hi its me warmth
<heat> 00:05 <mcrod> is it possible that linux can just fucking work for fucking once
<heat> no
<mcrod> boy I can't wait to go to #archlinux and ask why something as basic as audio doesn't work
<heat> are you using arch?
<Mutabah> pulseaudio issues?
<mcrod> this is what I did
<mcrod> a) move to a different apartment
<Cindy> mcrod: more like linux mint chat
<mcrod> b) audio worked before this
<heat> use pipewire
<heat> pipewire works okayish for me
<Cindy> linux mint is actually worse than arch linux in tech support
<mcrod> c) not use front audio, but use line out in rear
<mcrod> no audio
<zid> I just use alsa cus you know.. it's alsa?
<zid> sure I can't runtime configure stuff buut
<Cindy> their distro is held together with duct-tape, any slight deviation causes it to fall apart and they'll tell you it's your fault
<zid> who cares, set default sink in dmix and done forever
<Cindy> what more do you expect from packages that haven't been updated in decades? :P
<heat> you could be using windows
<heat> audio workie? haha nice
<Cindy> the problem with linux mint that i have, is outdated packages and i mean really REALLY outdated packages
<Cindy> when you want to update something unofficially, you'll have to update the dependencies too, and dependecies of those dependencies
<Cindy> and it snowballs from there
<zid> audio on windows works unless you're on w10/w11 from what I've heard
<mcrod> audio on windows worked straightaway, like I expected it to work
<zid> windows update and nvidia updates etc just constantly fucking with people's audio setups
<zid> cus you don't admin the machine, they do
<mcrod> linux of course, as usual, doesn't work.
<mcrod> no wonder companies don't embrace FOSS more
<mcrod> most of it is *garbage*
<Cindy> like jesus chrsit
<Cindy> i just want to update latex to properly export to pdf
<Mutabah> except valve, and 90% of internet hosting
<mcrod> at least the proprietary *garbage* that is developed is generally well tested
<Mutabah> windows, well tested?
<mcrod> listen
<mcrod> I worked in the semiconductor industry, where the software is being used to power bonding of large company X
<mcrod> I can assure you
<mcrod> it is some of the worst code I have ever seen written by the mind of man
<Cindy> mcrod: code fast, bro
<mcrod> I don't know how or why large company X is paying for it, but somehow, SOMEHOW it compiles, and works
<Cindy> company doesn't care if the whole software is a pile of shit
<Cindy> if it works, it works
<mcrod> that's right
<mcrod> that's what I'm saying
<mcrod> it is horrifingly bad
<mcrod> thank god I left that place
<mcrod> but further what I'm saying is, people will pay real $$$$$$ for a pile of dog shit that works
<Cindy> zid: i heard microsoft has already laid off most of their staff, replaced them with either out-sourced workers or "AI"
<Cindy> they already laid off their OS quality control department
<mcrod> it is 2023, linux distributions still can't figure out audio when (even though I'm sure the implementations are horrible in windows), windows has
<Cindy> i remember this month when microsoft news pushed out an article made by a large language model
<Cindy> where it recommended a food bank if you are hungry
<zid> had broken and shitty audio its entire lifetime
<zid> that's why people use *macs* for audio
<zid> not windows
<mcrod> I plugged shit into my ports and it worked automatically
<mcrod> I did the same on Linux and it did not
<mcrod> shitty or not in the details, one worked, the other didn't
<mcrod> and ultimately that's what it comes down to
<mcrod> if you're the type of guy who likes to fiddle with 50000000 config files to fix what is given by birthright from systems 20 years ago, fine, do you
<zid> windows is *exactly the same*, a random subset of feautres will automatically work
<zid> a random subset won't but on windows it will be impossible to fix
<mcrod> random subset that just happens to work for 98% of use cases, considering most of the world doesn't seem to bitch about it
<kazinsal> ironically the audio stack on openbsd seems to work a lot better than the one on linux, but I'm sure rewriting the entire linux audio stack a tenth time will make it work this time
<zid> I hear *constant* bitching about audio on windows
<mcrod> the remaining 2% is what to your point, people go out and buy macs for
<mcrod> overall what I'm getting at is: shit code that solves the problem is better than good code that doesn't
<zid> I searched the last discord I had open for windows audio
<zid> haha this is a good one
<zid> "Have you tried running all audio through a windows 7 computer instead?"
<mcrod> I never said it wasn't a steaming pile of shit
<mcrod> I'm saying that audio on windows works for mom and pop when they go out and spend money on a laptop
<mcrod> every time
<Mutabah> So has linux in my expirence
<mcrod> I'm sure the answer for that is in a configuration file in some stupid place because I was foolish enough to use arch
<mcrod> literally the first question I got in #archlinux
<mcrod> "does the port actually work"
<kazinsal> I think the last time I had issues with the audio stack on windows was Vista
<mcrod> if I plug something in
<mcrod> I expect it to work straight away
<mcrod> I have no idea how people maintain systems for themselves when it's *not* that way, outside of an academic setting
<Mutabah> your problem is likely that you're using arch
<Mutabah> which is famous for being the bleeding edge and likely to break
<mcrod> somehow for everyone I know, it doesn't
<mcrod> and then I use it
<mcrod> and it breaks
<mcrod> maybe it's PEBKAC, who knows
<Mutabah> pebkac, or maybe your hardware is one of the quirky ones.
<zid> >when they go out and buy a laptop
<zid> yes, because it's preinstalled to work
<zid> like your linux *isn't*
<zid> You're supposed to be doing that part
<mcrod> I did
<zid> whether that's hard or easy to do is a different discussion
<Mutabah> We're in #osdev... that hardware is quirky should prequisite knowledge
<zid> yea that could be easier, alsa was always something people struggled with, and pulse etc didn't make it easier
<Mutabah> and traditionaly, laptop hardware is the quirkiest
<zid> but totally isn't what you were talking about
<mcrod> i used the laptop as an example
<zid> yea laptops just run special windows drivers
<zid> that work around a bunch of stuff
<mcrod> i have a realtek alc1220 chip I think
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<zid> on linux you just need to "know" that when you modprobe inte_hda you need card=alc1220-rev34 or whatever
<zid> because you're the system integrator now
<mcrod> understand what I'm saying though
<mcrod> audio was fine until I tried to use the rear audio
<mcrod> front is fine
<mcrod> rear is not
<zid> Yes that makes 100% sense if for example, the pin config is wrong
<zid> like if the wrong submodel of card is in use
<mcrod> a fresh windows install works fine too
<Mutabah> a fresh windows install downloads the manufacturer drivers with windows update as soon as it can, or may already have them in the image
<mcrod> this was without internet
<mcrod> oh my god is this it?
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<mcrod> figured it out
<mcrod> needed to use alsamixer, and set auto-mute to off
<mcrod> nice.
<mcrod> ok i'm happy now
<heat> (translation: lots of FOSS is complete ass, including most desktop software)
<heat> but the problem truly is BKAC because you're fucking voluntarily using it anyway
<mcrod> shjuo/ws 12
<mcrod> uh
<mcrod> no one saw that.
<kof123> i'm still waiting for the riveting pci option rom discussion. how large may these be? how many maximum can be used? and so forth
<zid> [02:20] -NickServ- Invalid password for mcrod.
<mcrod> zid: :)
<mcrod> that wasn't the password, but
<mcrod> nice try
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<heat> kof123, they may be as large as your device's flash
<heat> but AFAIK they have the practical limit of 4GB (32-bits?)
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<heat> and you can have as many as you'd like, as long as they fit
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<zid> That's what I tell the girls about sharpies
<zid> (have you seen that subreddit? :P)
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<heat> no
<zid> you should check it out, 10/10
<heat> what's the name?
<zid> google for reddit sharpies subreddit
<heat> haha that's brilliant
<heat> truly peak humanity
<immibis> [02:46] -NickServ- You are now identified as zid.
<zid> my password is awful that doesn't surprise me
<immibis> why is your first assumption that i know your password and not that i just typed something that didn't happen
<zid> s/doesn't/wouldn't
<Mutabah> Don't google that at work.
<heat> is your password buttsharpies123
<zid> 123? that's a lot!
<immibis> [02:48] -NickServ- You are now identified as Mutabah.
<immibis> er
<immibis> [02:48] -NickServ- You are now identified as heat.
<immibis> damn i messed that up
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<Ermine> gog: may I pet you
<gog> Ermine: yes
* Ermine pets gog
* gog prr
<Ermine> No heat here :(
<gog> :(
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<sham1> Brrr
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<mcrod> gog may I hug you
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<Hammdist> I have screen open on the serial port /dev/ttyUSB0. how would I write a file to the serial port as if I had typed it into screen?
<gog> mcrod: yes
<gog> Hammdist: cat file > /dev/ttyUSB0
<gog> (meow)
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<Hammdist> I had tried that first, but it had seemed not to work. but now I realize I haven't hooked up serial port receive in the program yet! so it probably works to just cat to the serial port
<gog> everything is a file except things that aren't files
<Hammdist> ceci n'est pas un fichier
<gog> also idk what your device permissions config is like, if you need to change the perms on it or not
<gog> or add yourself to a group
<zid> I am not a french file either
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<sham1> cat /home/gog
<mcrod> hi
* mcrod hugs gog
* gog prr
<mcrod> my cat sneezes a lot
<sham1> F
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<Hammdist> so I have an ascii encoded write operation format that I use to send a program over the serial port. only about 98% of such writes are actually received. bummer
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<gog> something is pretty fucked witho our internet
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<zid> Well it can't be a tree having fallen onto a phone line
<zid> so I'm stumped
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<mcrod> gog: the fishies ate the undersea cables
<Hammdist> I found the problem with my serial port protocol: there was a command that would clear a memory region. I hadn't realized that takes a lot of time so it's necessary to stall the protocol with dummy data while it executes. now things are more or less working
<gog> yay!
<gog> mcrod: maybe i should eat the fishies
<gog> but that would mean going into the ocean
<gog> yuck
<Ermine> gog paradox
<zid> why not just use flow control?
<gog> i'm only ON/OFF
<gog> zid: isavia is trying to make the city cut down a bunch of trees in öskuhlið
<gog> nobody is happy about this since we have no other actual wooded areas
<zid> isavia?
<Ermine> how that's spelled
<gog> state airport operator
<zid> ah
<zid> island aviation
<zid> makes sense now I know
<gog> they want to get a little more shallow glideslope but the problem isn't the trees, it's that there's a hill that's 168' AMSL like a mile before the threshold
<zid> They should cut a giant slice out of it, and leave the trees alone
<gog> yes
<zid> lower them back down on jacks
<Ermine> Are there protests
<gog> not really
<gog> it's only a proposal rn
<gog> the city said no
<zid> I also said no
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<Ermine> heat
<Ermine> sorry, misclicked
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<mcrod> ...
<mcrod> today I learned that you do not need to use -dump-config for clang-format
<mcrod> and that's probably true of clang-tidy
<mcrod> I'm mad
<mcrod> one of the first commands the manual tells you to use involves -dump-config
<zid> it'd save time for you to tell us when you're not mad at something
<mcrod> i'm not mad at you, or gog
<zid> don't call gog a something
<mcrod> wut
<gog> yeah, i'm a nothing
* mcrod hug gog
* gog hug mcrod
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<dzwdz> any ideas why ld wouldn't recognize an .ar? /usr/lib/libc.a: file not recognized: file format not recognized
<dzwdz> this is a crosscompiled ld running on my os, the same exact command works on the host
<zid> It'll say that for wrong arch or bitness
<zid> cus ld's error messages are A+
<GeDaMo> What does file say about it?
<dzwdz> GeDaMo: i don't have it crosscompiled, but on the host it says that it's an ar archive
<dzwdz> i didn't hash it from inside the vm or anything, but the header looks correct in there too
<dzwdz> zid: i don't think it's just an ld thing, objdump fails too, with the same error message
<zid> they're both binutils
<dzwdz> yeah
<zid> you could always un-ar it
<zid> and check it's full of .o files for the right arch etc
<dzwdz> what exactly would i be looking for
<zid> .o files for the right arch etc
<dzwdz> ar: /usr/lib/libc.a: file format not recognized
<dzwdz> hmm
<dzwdz> i'll check if the archive isn't corrupted anywhere
<zid> ar t /usr/lib/libc.a
<zid> init-first.o libc-start.o sysdep.o version.o ...
<dzwdz> yeah, that's the command i tried to run
<zid> yep it's gefuckt
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<zid> or your 'ar' library I suppose
<dzwdz> i was about to ask
<dzwdz> if it's possible that something went wrong when compiling it
<nortti> do all of these use bfd?
<zid> he doesn't get far enough :P
<dzwdz> nortti: i think that message is coming from bfd
<dzwdz> i don't remember finding it anywhere else in the binutils tree but i might be misremembering
<zid> ar don't give no fucks about bfd
<dzwdz> yet "file format not recognized" is only present in bfd/bfd.c
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<geist> maybe it’s some sort of bug in your fs layer that shows up with particular access patterns by different tools
<geist> might make sense to port a hash utility or something so you can get a first pass validation of a file
<dzwdz> i did, the crc32 checks out
<dzwdz> my current assumption is that something went terribly wrong during the binutils build
<dzwdz> so i'm trying to get it to build properly
<zid> but it's broken in ar too you said
<dzwdz> so?
<dzwdz> it's part of binutils too
<zid> oh, didn't realize ar came from binutils, til
<zid> I'd just grab the file off and make sure a different ar can read it
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<zid> then depending on answer it's broken file or broken ar, then you test 'broken' ar with a known good file, etc
<dzwdz> the file is known good
<dzwdz> i mean the libc
<dzwdz> the crc32 matches the version on my host, and it was used to compile several things
<zid> so it opens fine in a different copy of ar?
<dzwdz> yup
<zid> ar broken then yea
<dzwdz> i also just confirmed it on a clean build
<dzwdz> so i'm guessing that it does some weird io that breaks my libc and/or kernel
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<zid> ooh yea it doing weird fileops would defo not help
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<zid> like if your libc isn't posixy enough
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<dzwdz> i tried logging the file operations and dumping the output of each fread
<dzwdz> but that looks correct too
<zid> Time to instrument ar? :P
<dzwdz> it looks as if it's trying to match the first file header against something but failing
<dzwdz> as in the header of the first file stored in the archive
<dzwdz> er
<dzwdz> the first file header in the archive
<gog> meow
* dzwdz makes a human noise
<zid> mmm kebab, definitely needed chilli sauce but there's no way I'm risking that rn
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<dzwdz> bfd seems to be using something called "_bfd_check_format"
<dzwdz> grepping for that across the binutils repo, i only find it being used
<dzwdz> but it isn't defined anywhere
<dzwdz> in other words i'm having a great time with this
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<sham1> *human noise*
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<dzwdz> any tips except instrumenting ar?
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<dzwdz> the control flow in bfd is horribly obfuscated, i can't bring myself to deal with it any more
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<nortti> if you have a debugger running on your own OS it might be useful comparing the control flow between your host system and your OS and seeing where they diverge
<dzwdz> i don't
<dzwdz> i can attach to qemu with gdb, but that breaks on context switches and so far i wasn't able to figure out how to solve that
<mcrod> hi
<nikolar> hello
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<gorgonical> Any arm experts mind helping me understand secure vs non-secure access to the gic?
<gorgonical> I'm booting a secure kernel on core 1 and it brings the gic up enough to have timer interrupts, and then on core 0 I let u-boot run enough to wake up Linux. During bootup Linux also configures the gicd because it thinks its the first kernel on the system. But it reconfigures the gicd_ctlr register and turns *off* G1S interrupts.
<gorgonical> That's expected, but I don't even know why Linux can see that version of the gicd_ctlr. The manual suggests that non-secure access should see that bit (G1S enable) as res0. So then if Linux writes 0 to gicd_ctlr while it reconfigures, shouldn't that write do nothing?
<gorgonical> Alternatively, am I misunderstanding what counts as "secure access"? I am 95% sure Linux is not being run with SCR_EL3 configured so Linux is secure, so is there some bus configuration I'm missing? Anyone with more experience/insight?
<clever> gorgonical: https://i.imgur.com/JBx0Rtg.png there are secure and non-secure versions of EL2, EL1, and EL0
<bslsk05> ​i.imgur.com <no title>
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<clever> and its up to EL3 to decide the NS and EL it eret's into
<clever> the ideal being, your secure kernel and non-secure linux can co-exist on core0
<clever> a GIC timer interrupt could get routed to EL3, which will context switch would then context switch between the 2 kernels
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<clever> or it could be entirely event driven, linux issues an SVC that traps into EL3, which eret's down into the secure EL1 to do something
<clever> SMC*
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<gorgonical> clever: i know about the same-core segregation, but we want a full separation for availability reasons
<clever> youll still need to ensure core0 is in NS mode, while core1 is in S mode
<gorgonical> my understanding is that the timer exists at each core and is in fact a ppi, so afaict it shouldn't even be affected by the gicd settings
<gorgonical> yeah and I think we're doing that. we have u-boot as the main bootloader with arm tf-a to run the secure payload. I haven't 1000000% verified it but my understanding is that u-boot will drop linux into ns el1. I know it's el1 at this point
<gorgonical> but is it your understanding that "secure access" is reliant on the PE's NS/S bit?
<clever> gorgonical: its also reliant on the chip OEM to wire the NS flag from the arm core, up to other peripherals
<clever> some chips just dont have a working secure mode
<gorgonical> I am hoping that's not the case. The chip's TRM *says* it has a working secure mode
<gorgonical> My suspicion when I got up this morning was that I needed to configure the bus that the GIC is attached on. The chip says the gic is across the APB bus, so maybe there's some configuration there?
<gorgonical> But I don't know if that's actually well-founded
<gorgonical> the manual says, not the chip
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<dzwdz> i just want to share that i figured out the binutils issues
<dzwdz> and managed to actually compile something on my os
<nortti> nice
<nortti> what was the issue?
<nortti> also, do you have the source code somewhere where I could test it out?
<dzwdz> i'm kinda ashamed to admit it was a stubbed out sscanf
<dzwdz> that i forgot to make throw an error
<dzwdz> i do, but right now it doesn't include the binutils port yet
<nortti> < dzwdz> i'm kinda ashamed to admit it was a stubbed out sscanf ← is that why you ended up looking at the float foramtting?
<nortti> *formatting
<dzwdz> sort of - i grabbed sortix's scanf, which made me wonder about how you guys are handling printf
<dzwdz> so i looked at that, noticed that %f wasn't implemented, and remembered that i've wanted to try implementing float formatting for a whlie
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<dzwdz> so how big of a pain is crosscompiling gcc
<dzwdz> binutils was quite the experience already
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<heat> -SaslServ- Last failed attempt from: immibis!~quassel@2a01:4f9:4a:4caf::2 on Aug 24 01:48:48 2023 +0000.
<heat> bruh
<gorgonical> lol wat
<immibis> oh no, not my ip address
<immibis> you can ddos me with that
<heat> im going 2 hack u
<dzwdz> imagine having ipv6
<immibis> i don't have ipv6... my quassel server has ipv6, there's a difference
<gorgonical> I have lost so much hair this week from this dumb gic problem
<samis> dzwdz: imagine *not* having ipv6
<immibis> now I wonder about leaving secret notes to people by failed login attempts
<dzwdz> i think technically speaking my isp does support ipv6
<dzwdz> but you get either ipv4 OR ipv6
<nortti> what
<dzwdz> at least according to what i've read online
<immibis> people in developed countries with wired connections don't have ipv6 because ISPs are averse to nonbroken internets
<dzwdz> nortti: yeah, idk either
<immibis> my connection is not wired, so I have one at home
<samis> what, no DSLite or equivalent?
<dzwdz> but it's not like i actually even bothered to ask them, and people on the internet do have a tendency to say dumb stuff sometimes
<heat> i have v4 and v6
<heat> succit
<zid> I have v4 and a v6 tunnel :P
<immibis> hurricane electric?
<zid> he hype
<samis> (mildly interesting: providing ipv6, but not an ipv6 dns server, totally makes sense. Don't really use the ISP DNS anyway
<zid> german isps are all dslite from what I've seen, which is annoying when we wanna gaming
<dzwdz> i think my (isp-supplied) router is too shitty to use the he tunnel
<zid> use it on your machine then
<dzwdz> doesn't it use some funky protocol
<dzwdz> that i can't just port forward
<zid> yes, ipv4
<clever> after my last modem/router upgrade, i wound up with an SFP module slotted directly into my ISP router
<samis> what kind of isp router takes an sfp module
<clever> i would need an SFP adapter board to replace the isp router
<clever> samis: one offering 1500mbit of download, lol
<dzwdz> zid: 6in4, to be exact
<dzwdz> which i believe my router needs to be able to understand
<zid> proto 42 instead of proto 40 or whatever
<dzwdz> otherwise it'll just drop the packets
<zid> your router needs to not actively drop it yes
<zid> That is true of all parts of tcp
<zid> udp, dns, icmp, etc
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<dzwdz> my router only allows me to forward tcp and udp so i've kinda assumed that wouldn't work
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<dzwdz> but actually lemme try
<immibis> german ISPs allocate public IPv4s to customers because it is a developed country which means they got allocated IPv4s before exhaustion was a thing
<zid> works fine on everything I've seen
<zid> immibis: incorrect
<immibis> are you using an old ISP or a new startup one?
<zid> You're thinking of the UK, germany is all dslitey
<dzwdz> FAQ: I'm trying to set up a tunnel to an IP behind a router providing NAT. Will this work? / In most cases, this configuration will not work. [...]
<zid> 100% lies
<zid> it will almost always work
<zid> like, the only place I remember that mentioned when I was setting it up was
<zid> NOTE: When behind a firewall appliance that passes protocol 41, use the IPv4 address you get from your appliance's DHCP service instead of the IPv4 endpoint you provided to our broker.
<zid> "make sure you use your nat address bro"
<immibis> IP over IP? That won't be port forwarded without customized router firmware
<immibis> only UDP and TCP get NATted
<immibis> DMZ might work if your router has it
<zid> good news, it doesn't need it
<immibis> IP over UDP would work
<dzwdz> wireguard ftw
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