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<geist>
just had one of those brain farts where you suddenly forget how to do something in vim
<geist>
it's always been muscle memory up until now and then suddenly you're like what is the key combo
<geist>
and if you think about it you dont know, you have to just keep trying it and see if your reflexes come back (or look it up on the interwebs)
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<heat>
geist did you forget how to exit vim?
<heat>
that's ok
<heat>
it's hard!
<vny>
Is there a way to identify if two newly allocated objects (1kb each) are in the same OS page? I can print the address ranges for each but this does not tell me if they are part of the same page
<heat>
sure there is
<heat>
if addr & ~(PAGE_SIZE - 1), they're in the same page
<heat>
if those match, that is
<geist>
right, basically all the bits in the address that dont include the bottom bits (12 probably in your case, since your page is probably 4k)
<heat>
that doesn't deal with large pages but that's rare anyway
<geist>
and doesn't deal with objects that cross a page boundary
<geist>
heat: i forgot how to switch tabs
<geist>
i had vaguely remembered it deals with the 'g' key, but couldn't remember what the sequence was
<heat>
i didn't even know vim had tabs lol
<vny>
ah yes, thanks heat
<heat>
i've just learned some minutes ago how to set tabstops and tabs-as-spaces
<heat>
which is cool
<geist>
also :retab can convert
<geist>
like select some lines and :retab
<heat>
oh cool
<geist>
and yeah re: tabs try `:tabnew` and then you can switch between them with `gt`
<geist>
or `:tabNext` etc
<geist>
one of my slight preferences to gvim over vim is the tab management is a little nicer because you can use the mouse to drag around, etc
<heat>
what's gvim?
<geist>
just a X windows version of vim
<geist>
basically identical, but runs in a window
<heat>
ah yes
<geist>
also fairly identical between windows/mac/linux so it's my general default editor
<geist>
doesn't have to deal with any deficiencies between whatever the native terminal is, etc
<geist>
like i would if i was using vim
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<gog>
hi
<heat>
grog
<heat>
greetings
<Ermine>
gog: may I pet you
<heat>
no
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<Ermine>
D:
<sham1>
Heat forbids petting. What has the world come to
<gog>
Ermine: yes
<gog>
never listen to heat
<Ermine>
Yay
* Ermine
pets gog
* gog
prr
<gog>
heat is pessimal
<gog>
he hasn't come in for his depessimization yet
<sham1>
Damn it bixby
<mcrod>
hi
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<heat_>
from all the voice assistants i'm most definitely bixby
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<heat_>
gog i write unit tests now
<heat_>
is this growth or is this pessimization
<heat_>
i find myself writing tests and then unit testing things and being able to verify correctness on smaller bits of code and im like... yeah this is good isn't it
<heat_>
despite what C people have to say
<sham1>
TDD is good
<heat_>
TDD is kind of silly
<heat_>
i'm not advocating for TDD, but rather writing unit tests after the code, as a helper
<zid>
tdd is fine, unit tests are tarded
<heat_>
why?
<zid>
unit tests are for re-creating types in script languages
<heat_>
i generally find that "tests" that are not "unit" tests still make sense but you get a somewhat coarse coverage
<zid>
yes
<heat_>
like, do you realize how hard it is to test every inch of mmap from userspace?
<zid>
tests good, unit tests useless for systems langs
<zid>
They're built in, they're called compiler errors
<heat_>
if you get unit tests for small things such as "rb tree works correctly" and then "address allocation works correctly", etc etc, you get way higher assurance that mmap is correct
<heat_>
"unit testing is a software testing method by which individual units of source code—sets of one or more computer program modules together with associated control data, usage procedures, and operating procedures—are tested to determine whether they are fit for use"
<sham1>
Unit tests aren't just for typing in dynamically typed languages
<sham1>
They're also for behaviour
<heat_>
i would call an rb tree an individual unit
<zid>
only because you know C
<zid>
go look at what people who religiously write unit tests actually test
<zid>
They have to reimplement all the invariants a compiler and a type system would offer
<zid>
They're not testing rb_add(rb, 12); if(!rb_find(rb, 12)) err();
<sham1>
Yes they are
<zid>
they're testing if rb-add(rb, "12"); rb_add(rb, 12); rb_add(rb, {12}); all work
<zid>
sham1: that's a conformance test
<sham1>
A conformance test is a unit test
<zid>
Literally isn't what words mean
<Cindy>
by rb tree unit test
<Cindy>
i thought the program would randomly generate 20 keys or some shit
<Cindy>
and insert them all to a rb tree
<zid>
This is REST all over again
<heat_>
that would be fuzzing
<Cindy>
and then query them all, and compare speed
<heat_>
that would be benchmarking
<Cindy>
fuzzing + benchmarking
<sham1>
Unit tests are one way of doing conformance testing, since you're testing the unit for conformance and its behaviour for conformance. TDD with BDD
<heat_>
proper rb unit testing would test insertion, removal, search (really basic testing) for "works :checkmark:", and then you'd maybe do fancier tests on the actual tree structure, etc etc
<heat_>
test for the invariants of a red-black tree
<sham1>
No!
<sham1>
No testing implementation details!
<zid>
REST REST REST REST
<heat_>
how about you test my implementation details
<sham1>
Pay me
<heat_>
oh im the bottom but i need to pay *you*? smh
<heat>
this explains the mysterious vscode crash, but not hexcode
<gog>
VIM VIM VIM
<Ermine>
gog: I heard about it, is it finally here?
<heat>
sorry, hexchat
<heat>
sometimes when i close vscode (thru the X) hexchat also goes to shit
<gog>
Ermine: yes
<Ermine>
traps?
<Ermine>
Some kernel thing?
<heat>
yes
* gog
trap
<heat>
linux kernal transphobic
<gog>
smhj
<heat>
onyx kernal not
<gog>
i'm installing vsvim 2022
<Ermine>
Does vscode somehow trap interrupts? Wtf does this message mean?
<heat>
traps <- exception
<heat>
[61987.035191] traps: code[79651] trap int3 ip:55756caa0dde sp:7ffc4624ca40 error:0 in code[557569879000+70a7000] <-- int3 (debug) trap in process 79651 (comm: code) at ip yadda yadda, sp yadda yadda, error code 0, at memory mapping of "code" [base address + offset]
<sham1>
Electron going wild
<Ermine>
Is it running under debugger?
<heat>
no
<heat>
actually I don't quite know what 557569879000+70a7000 means
<heat>
let me check
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<Cindy>
when you can't even read processor exceptions
<heat>
ah ok, it's [vma start, vma length]
<Ermine>
What's your distro
<heat>
arch btw
<Ermine>
Used it for some time and never saw such a message
<Ermine>
Super weird
<Cindy>
i had it when windowmaker keeps crashing
<Ermine>
Another super weird thing is that hexchat went down with code
<Cindy>
[41372.659923] wmaker[3448]: segfault at 564752fed52f ip 00007f164a28d39b sp 00007ffe96f6d3a0 error 4 in libWINGs.so.3.1.0[7f164a284000+34000] likely on CPU 2 (core 0, socket 0)
<heat>
echo 'main(){__asm__("int3");}' > main.c && cc main.c && ./a.out
<Ermine>
heat: onyx desktop when
<heat>
never
<Ermine>
how so
<heat>
desktop bad unix good single utility that does single thing good
<heat>
how many #musl points did i get with this sentence?
<Ermine>
0
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<heat>
what??
<heat>
oh sorry, minimal good slow good
<heat>
no error message = good because you obviously just attach a debugger to your libc coredump as usual
<Ermine>
If you are looking for #suckless points then you win
<Cindy>
heat: i didn't get a coredump
<heat>
as if the target audience isn't the same?
<Cindy>
i had to disassemble libWINGs.so
<Ermine>
no
<Cindy>
and look for the instruction offse
<heat>
oh yeah sorry, suckless devs are nazis
<Cindy>
offset*
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<Ermine>
Can you provide more context on "no error message"?
<heat>
musl does a_crash() in a bunch of places without even attempting to say anything to stderr
<heat>
heap corruption? have fun debugging your SIGSEGV!
<Ermine>
heap corruption bad
<Cindy>
if you get a SIGSEGV without coredump
<Cindy>
have fun having to guess why
* Ermine
adds that to todo list
<Cindy>
but the trap message can tell you everything
<heat>
adds what?
<Ermine>
Look at that a_crash thingie and look if it is possible to improve situation
<heat>
it's not, we've pointed that out in #musl a bunch
<Ermine>
aaand?
<Cindy>
heat: i'm used to glibc printing it's own errors to stderr in a crash
<heat>
musl dev(s) are very change resistant
<Cindy>
like with corrupt malloc headers
<Cindy>
why doesn't musl do that
<heat>
i'm sure you'll get error messages with the SIMD string ops implementations /s
<Ermine>
did dalias just say 'no'
<heat>
and the non-sucky malloc
<heat>
yep
<Ermine>
heat: when did this discussion take place? I'll consult the logs
<heat>
"just look at the coredump!!!"
<Ermine>
Also, why do you care for musl then?
<heat>
because i use it for onyx
<Ermine>
Why don't you use glibc?
<heat>
and i see some positives in musl
<heat>
i could use glibc and have seriously considered doing so
<Ermine>
You don't seem to be happy about musl
<sham1>
musl is good
<Cindy>
glibc's free() and malloc() messages are really useful
<heat>
i'm not, and i'm very clearly not the only one
<heat>
(see e.g psykose)
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<Ermine>
Also dns over tcp was introduced after a lot of discussions
<heat>
it's a bunch of pedantic people that are clearly averse to any sort of "get shit done"
<Ermine>
In unix world, there's no consenus on what kind of shit has to be done
<Ermine>
And there are no timelines and deadlines (unless you're working for RH, but that's another story)
<heat>
there are timelines and deadlines
<heat>
very few people work for free
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<heat>
glibc is mainly driven by red hat, suse, linaro, etc
<Ermine>
Soooo you're using distro driven by glibc, systemd and stuff, and these people are not as pedantic, yet situation is far from perfect
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<heat>
sure, it's not perfect
<heat>
but it works okay-ish
<heat>
the experience of using glibc is far better than musl's, atm
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<heat>
and the experience of using systemd is far better than alternatives
<heat>
things just work, and they work fine
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<heat>
e.g any multithreaded app linked with musl will absolutely suck when malloc'ing from multiple threads. you're supposed to know that and LD_PRELOAD yourself some jemalloc or whatever
<sham1>
But it's not very UNIX-like now is it
<heat>
if UNIX-like things work poorly, I don't like UNIX
<heat>
strict UNIX philosophy would say that instead of cc main.c && ./a.out you'd need to do, what? cpp main.c | cc - | as - | ld - -o a.out && ./a.out?
<heat>
no thanks.
<Ermine>
For me Unix-like and unix philosophy things are too vague
<Cindy>
heat: so musl sucks
<Cindy>
even glibc's malloc is thread-safe
<heat>
musl's malloc is thread-safe by slapping a good old lock over everything
<heat>
what our good friend mjg would say is PESSIMAL
<Ermine>
nobody ever defined those things properly
<Cindy>
i used malloc in a multi-threaded application with glibc
<Cindy>
it worked
<mjg>
? :D
<mjg>
maybe lsd did not wear off yet
<Ermine>
I hate systemd not because it's not unix-like or something, but because it harmed me
<Ermine>
But anyway my daily driver is systemd-based
<heat>
how tf did it harm you?
<Ermine>
it killed my browser while I had an exam
<Ermine>
oom-killed
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<heat>
haha desktop linux!
<heat>
but was it systemd-oom or the OOM killer?
<Ermine>
systemd-oomd
<Ermine>
Iirc
<Ermine>
Ubuntu 22.04 used that
<Ermine>
Anyway, there was no reason for that
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<heat>
desktop linux sucks
<mjg>
laptop linux good
<heat>
laptop linux poggers, desktop linux sucks
<mjg>
wdym desktop linux sucks, there is a corporation behind it
<mjg>
the config they ship looks like a kernel dev's test jig
<mjg>
all kinds of *debug* (not mitigation) enabled
<heat>
debinan kernal pesimal, nokia 3310 symbian kernal optimal
<mjg>
nokia 3310 did not have symbian i don't think
<heat>
subscribe to my onlyfans for tech trips and trikcs
<mjg>
it did have snake tho
<Ermine>
I don't think it had symbian too
<mjg>
onyx on phone
<mjg>
when
<Ermine>
^^^
<heat>
2023 mjg: "hurr durr cmpxchg16b is technically not optimal" 2003 mjg: "haha snek on phone"
<mjg>
that is not inaccurate
<mjg>
i did have nokia 3310 around that year
<mjg>
and played snek
<Ermine>
laptop linux... one day I'll get to fixing i915 on my hw
<mjg>
ask wintel
<mjg>
:X
<Ermine>
no
<Ermine>
want to do it myself
<heat>
there's no greater happiness than snek on phone
<heat>
we've gone downhill from there on out
<mjg>
ya small monochromatic screen
<Ermine>
But really
<mjg>
is where it's at innit
<Ermine>
Give me shitty old phone with 4g-capable modem in it
<Ermine>
To be protected against the day telcos will disable 2g
<heat>
4g capable my ass
<heat>
2g 4L
<mjg>
i had 4gs of fentanyl
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<heat>
great afternoon eh?
<gog>
meow
<gog>
mrrp prr meow
<Ermine>
gog: may I pet you
<gog>
yes
* Ermine
pets gog
<Ermine>
heat won't stop me
<heat>
i will not
* gog
prr
<Cindy>
heat: can i give you cold?
<heat>
Ermine, it's all ok to me as long as it's consensual
<heat>
gog, did you consent?
<gog>
yes
<heat>
Cindy, no
<Ermine>
consentual or consensual
<heat>
gog, that didn't sound very enthusiastic to me
<gog>
heat: OMG YES>
<heat>
OMG yes what?
<Ermine>
>
<Cindy>
heat: this isn't a fucking marriage, doesn't have to enthusiastic
<heat>
yes it does
<gog>
OMG YES TO PETS
<heat>
there we go
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<heat>
i approve of this act and relationship ✅
<Cindy>
heat: you suck
<FireFly>
mew
<Cindy>
sorry had to get that off of my throat
<heat>
fuck you
<Cindy>
i suck at communication
<Cindy>
so i'm sorry heat
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* moon-child
pets FireFly
benlyn has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
* FireFly
purrs
<Cindy>
meow
* kazinsal
pets Cindy
* Cindy
purrs
<kazinsal>
if I can un-ADHD myself this weekend I'm thinking of being a menace to osdev society in the form of writing a new kernel core and then linking it with kuroko so I can write kernel modules in it
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<heat>
do it
<gog>
do it
* gog
pets kazinsal
<kazinsal>
nya~
<gog>
i could try to do some work rn
<gog>
but i'm pretty exhausted
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<Liberaci>
I have a question concerning Paging
<gog>
hi
<gog>
how can we be of assistance
<zid>
*guesses*it's a trie that maps one set of integers to another set of integers
<zid>
42
<zid>
4096
<zid>
Yes.
<mjg>
rb or avl, there is no trie!
<heat>
radix tree
<mjg>
:rimshot:
<heat>
pessimal
<heat>
maple tree
<Liberaci>
The principal as I understand it is that when a page table at a particular level of the tree has all its PTEs referring to swap, then that page table becomes eligible to be paged out itself.
<zid>
That's VM design
<heat>
swap isn't a hardware concept
<heat>
and page tables aren't usually swapped
<heat>
(because it's a bit tricky and has dubious gains)
<Liberaci>
My problem! Then process exit can become a longthy process, in which all the swapped-out page tables must be retrieved from disk (so we know which swap descriptors are now fere)
<zid>
you'd probably lose more memory tracking that stuff than it gains, and it'd be slow and useless
<heat>
yes, swapping is slow
<zid>
especially if it's random access and requires serialization
<mjg>
have you tried 0 cost swapping
<zid>
which is.. what would happen if you tried to page out page tables
<gog>
defer cleanup
<gog>
also don't swap out paging structures
<Liberaci>
gog: According to my textbook, Choudhury's "Operating System: Principle & Design", it is important to do so
<gog>
under what rationale
<Liberaci>
Here in chapter on paged virtual memory. He notes: Elementary paging only pages in and out data pages, and not the metadata. Therefore the metadata can grow to consume much memory
<gog>
if that's happening then your virtual address space is excessively fragmented
<moon-child>
unless you have, like, really bad fragmentation, the metadata won't consume 'much memory'
<Liberaci>
It dilutes paging by establishing an iron relationship between available physical memory and available virtual memory, instead of virtual memory being really unconstrained
<moon-child>
most textbooks are crap. Also frequently outdated
<gog>
this sounds very outdated
<gog>
memory is pretty cheap these days
<gog>
if your process is large enough that its working set needs swapping out you have an upper bound of 509 data pages to table pages for every 1GiB of VA regions
<zid>
Yea maybe you might want to do this optimization in place of other strategies, in 1970
<gog>
so reduce your fragmentation, use large pages where possible
<Liberaci>
Here is where I worry the situation became even harder. Choudhury prescribes that for proper virtual memory, the swap descriptors must live in paged memory also. So to clean up all swap descriptors of a process could involve several levels of page tables being paged in from disk and at each step also paging in a page of the swap allocator metadata.
<heat>
sadly this was written in 2009
<zid>
"And here's why it sucks"
<heat>
top tier textbook
<gog>
2009??
<zid>
sure you don't mean 1989?
<Liberaci>
Yes, it is a valuable book and my Institute favours it. The discussion of paging is centred around a case study of VMS OS
<gog>
!!!
<moon-child>
2009 bc, perhaps
<moon-child>
vms!
<gog>
ok
<gog>
so
<gog>
conceptually
<gog>
the book is tying its design principles to an operating system and platform that nobody uses anymore
<gog>
that's nonsense
<zid>
Initial releaseAnnounced: October 25, 1977
<zid>
See, told you it was from the 70s
<gog>
yeh figures
<gog>
what are you developing your project on?
<gog>
what are you targeting?
<heat>
Liberaci, it's a crap book, ditch it
<gog>
i'm guessing this is for a class
<Liberaci>
The book does discuss Linux too. But it is a sceptical of Linux because Choudhury doesn't favour the Linux page replacement policy. He claims it raises thrashing because of poor ability to balance the working sets between processes and the filepage cache
<heat>
yes, certainly the VMS(!!) page replacement policy is better
<gog>
skeptical of Linux at what point in history
<heat>
fucking hell
<gog>
this edition of the book is 14 years old
<gog>
Linux has changed massively since then
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<Liberaci>
gog: I completed my OS class, now I would invent my own OS as a fun exercise. I target the qemu-system-riscv64 -M virt. It is a fictional emulated RISC-V 64 computer
<heat>
> alogin() {
<heat>
aw fuck
<heat>
aw fuck this
<heat>
burn that book
<moon-child>
you dare spurn the holy words of kernighan and ritchie?
<bslsk05>
news.ycombinator.com: Let's be controversial. K&R is lovely, I learned from it, everything good everyo... | Hacker News
<Liberaci>
moon-child: That was a great book, I learnt all C from it a few years ago
<moon-child>
'K & R both beautiful, sexy, clever, kind and wonderous men'
<heat>
the new editions of K&R are good
<heat>
the old one is garbage
<heat>
the old one was written back when "main() { extern printf(), malloc(); printf("Hello World %p", malloc(20));}" was stunning programming
<gog>
i don't know anything about riscv64
<moon-child>
yea the book is fine
<heat>
gog types are a lie
<Liberaci>
I do not follow the code style it presents. The names of variables and functions are terse, a lecturer related me that in the historic C compiler, only the first 6 characters of a symbol were significant. And so the terse naming is needed.
<moon-child>
CREAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT
<heat>
creat
<gog>
creat
<zid>
K&R1 still exists?
<Liberaci>
gog: It is a free ISA which I chose because Qemu provide a fictional computer which is straightforward (qemu-system-riscv64 -M virt). During my OS class, we modified a kernel which targeted the IBM PC. Xv6
<Liberaci>
We were advised, this is a replica of an outdated OS which need some modernisation. Our projects included to virtualize its filesystem and implement a ramfs, implement mmap, implement dynamic linker, implement priority scheduler, and so on.
<kof123>
cpp main.c | cc - | as - | ld - -o a.out && ./a.out? < -- eh, that is the interface, MVC
<Ermine>
heat: why they suck
<kof123>
i mean, i would say this perhaps was not specified so clearly, but ...
<kof123>
you can write any language in any other language, blood and guts versus the makeup
<heat>
Ermine, unix v6 is a bad example of how to build an OS in 2023, and xv6 is a bastardization of it
<gog>
OS42069
<zid>
I'm limited to OS/32768
<heat>
xv6 is literally just a fucking listing of files, has no directories, no libc, nothing
<gog>
eeny weeny teeny weeny shrivled little short int man
<zid>
weirdly is that I am not limited to OS/32768, it must store it so that 0 maps to 1
<moon-child>
short long int
<zid>
to 767*
<heat>
oh and xv6 is also written in the stupidly terse UNIX style
<Liberaci>
heat: They say it is a tribute to Unix V6.
<heat>
UNIX v6 wasn't that shitty
<Ermine>
at least it's smol and there's a book that fully describes its behaviour
<heat>
actually sortix would probably be a good learning OS
<heat>
it's not that large
<gog>
this is not the greatest OS in the world. this is just a tribute
<bslsk05>
'34C3 - Are all BSDs created equally?' by media.ccc.de (00:58:58)
<mjg>
bsd ports of that code are defo crap
<heat>
drm code is fine and portable
<heat>
bsd would be standing around with software rendering if it weren't for the merciful linux/Xorg gods
<moon-child>
actually I did observe such a uaf once. Closed one application, opened another, and for a few moments before it refreshed its window for the first time, I saw some of the contents of the previous window
<gog>
kazinsal: 50 years ago first publication
<gog>
45
<gog>
but 50
<kazinsal>
even dave cutler, an actual VMS developer, stopped referencing VMS for his OS design work in like, the mid 90s
<gog>
based NT chad
<mjg>
windows 9x best OS
<mjg>
NT is a soy boy
<sham1>
Made by that cheat Dave Plumer
<gog>
i sure do talk a lot of shit for somebody who almost never codes
<heat>
bro that's the weirdest boss you could get pissed off at
<mcrod>
it wasn't hard
<heat>
you in 2 days: "FUCK. YOU. CEASELESS"
<mcrod>
but I absolutely needed the gold pine resin to do any meaningful damage
<heat>
what weapon are you using?
<mcrod>
broadsword+4 I think
<heat>
lol
<mcrod>
don't remember what I upgraded it to
<heat>
there you go
<mcrod>
no not there you go you fuckface that should be just fine at this early stage :(
<mcrod>
blighttown has been awful considering how weak the weapon is by now
<heat>
are you going for str or dex?
<mcrod>
str
<heat>
gosh you've seen some better weapons in your path
<mcrod>
I had to upgrade endurance pretty high so I could wear pants
<heat>
claymore for one
<mcrod>
yeah I think I picked it up
<heat>
i'm pretty sure that's a good bit better
<heat>
you'll want greatswords and shit
<mcrod>
i'm definitely feeling the fun though
<mcrod>
i'm amazed that when I open what I think is a random door, I'm back in some part of the map I never expected to be
<mcrod>
and Behold, shortcut!
<heat>
i won't spoil you but there's a REALLY good STR weapon somewhere in an... alternate path lets say
<mcrod>
new weapon discovered: "The Sword of gog"
<gog>
:3
<mcrod>
gog: may I pet you
<gog>
yes
<heat>
btw if you really need to, you should track back/farm to get better weapons
<heat>
cuz the next boss is kind of a damage sponge
* mcrod
pets gog
* gog
prr
<mcrod>
spider shield is nice for blighttown
<mcrod>
disasters are gone after the defeat of the gravelord serpent
<mcrod>
servant
<mcrod>
fuck
<heat>
haha
<heat>
you got fucking gravelorded?
<mcrod>
yes
<heat>
it happens
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<zid>
it shouldn't
<zid>
all the servers are dead
<heat>
in ds:r too?
<zid>
:r might have servers
<zid>
maybe
<zid>
but who plays dsr
<zid>
memerollers, that's who
<heat>
i do want to get ds:r someday because that sounds fun af
<zid>
memerolling is a meme
<heat>
skip the whole of <REDACTED DLC AREA> by just memerolling down the elevator
<mcrod>
FUCK
<mcrod>
FUCK
<heat>
what happened sweetie?
<mcrod>
got really far, then died
<zid>
I taught a friend how to quantity dupe in ds:r
<mcrod>
now I have to start at the depths bonfire
<mcrod>
and do this all over again
<mcrod>
kill me
<mcrod>
just kill me
<heat>
wait what? how far?
<mcrod>
didn't reach the bottom
<heat>
there's a bonfire almost right at the beginning of blighttown
<mcrod>
wut
<zid>
there's two bonfires on the upper level of blight town right?
<zid>
the one in the stone pillars, and another one?
<heat>
no, i think there's only one up top, and one on the bottom
<zid>
ah
<mcrod>
no...
<mcrod>
weapon at risk...
<zid>
ds:r adds a couple though
<mcrod>
andre is far away
<zid>
I forget where, other than by the skeleton blacksmith
<heat>
you should really get that claymore pal
<mcrod>
and the poison club dude hit me and I fell off the edge
<heat>
haha
<mcrod>
i have the claymore
<zid>
blighttown has really fucking good loot, at least
<zid>
firekeeper soul, tin banishment, power within, pyro set, etc
<mcrod>
ok first off
<heat>
shh
<heat>
no spoiler
<mcrod>
the claymore takes a lot of windup time
<heat>
well yeah it's a greatsword pal
<zid>
That it has loot? :P
<mcrod>
yes I know it's a greatsword
<heat>
if you don't want windup go dex
<mcrod>
but the greatswords in >=ds2 don't have this kind of windup time
<heat>
dex is fun
<zid>
nah go running R1 halberd
<heat>
you have access to a really fucking decent katana if you know where to find it
<zid>
he's already past it isn't he, if he got kinda far into blight town
<zid>
both of the katana
<zid>
I've never done katanas they don't hit hard enough in pve
<mcrod>
so
<mcrod>
I'm starting to think I've leveled up the wrong things
<heat>
screenshot pls
<mcrod>
no need
<mcrod>
knight class, but vitality is 25 and endurance is 23
<zid>
vit and end are all you need if you have a weapon worth using
<mcrod>
you don't understand
<mcrod>
my STR is 11
<zid>
but you don't
<heat>
haha
<heat>
yeah you leveled up the wrong things
<zid>
did you happen across anything with black in the name
<mcrod>
uh maybe
<mcrod>
one sec
<mcrod>
just died again
<zid>
black knight sword, black knight halberd, etc
<heat>
bkh <3 <3 <3
<mcrod>
no i have none of that
<zid>
rip
<mcrod>
i have a halberd and a gargoyle's halberd
<zid>
hand axe? club?
<zid>
regular halberd is okay
<mcrod>
can't wield
<zid>
you'll need to backtrack though
<zid>
you need to +10 something at andre
<zid>
and put a couple of points in to be able to wield it
<mcrod>
andre's fucking FAR now though
<zid>
what are you wielding now?
<mcrod>
claymore+0
<zid>
gross
<heat>
better than broadsword +4
<zid>
+0 = plus shit, amiright
<zid>
doubt it tbh
<zid>
bs+4 is like.. 120 damage
<zid>
claymore +0 is 103
<heat>
hmm ok
<zid>
both are C/C scaling
<zid>
(a +4 claymore would be 144 though)
<heat>
well in this case scaling matters jack shit because our friend didn't level up anything worth leveling up
<mcrod>
now I have to not get cursed
<heat>
25 vit - 25 end in blighttown is relatively high for a noob
<heat>
11 STR is horrendous
<mcrod>
you know this isn't my first dark souls game, right
<zid>
11 str is fiine
<mcrod>
not at all
<mcrod>
NOJ
<mcrod>
JON
<mcrod>
:KNSDFLKS
<mcrod>
NO
<zid>
heat loves fucking dex scaling weapons he thinks stats are useful
<mcrod>
I DIDN'T KNOW THERE WAS ANOTHER BASILISK
<mcrod>
and i got cursed talking to you guys
<mcrod>
jesus christ fuck you guys
<zid>
game is *perfectly* beatable with just a hand axe
<heat>
great scythe >>
<heat>
the fuck
<heat>
you're in the middle of gameplay and chatting?
<mcrod>
hey I thought I was safe
<zid>
hand axe +15 does 200 damage and you can hit like 10 times per boss punish :P
<zid>
and can have resins
<mcrod>
ok so I have half health now
<mcrod>
as expected
<mcrod>
which means I'm not going anywhere near blighttown now
<zid>
yea, go out past the butcher's room and take the back entrance to fire link
<zid>
and buy a purging stone from the undead merchant on the way out
<heat>
listen, the year was 2014, i had gotten dark souls on games with gold a few months back, decided to pick up the game. some weeks in, im at the depths, i knew what to expect (shit holes with basilisks)
<zid>
I've never been cursed by a basilisk
<heat>
but i still fell in the hole, got cursed, got fucking PISSED, threw my controller at the floor
<zid>
I don't stand in weird grey fog from a monster that otherwise doesn't attack
<heat>
from that day onwards im scared shitless of the depths
<heat>
FUCK THAT PLACE
<zid>
I very very rarely do the depths unless I have to
<zid>
I get lost a lot still :D
<heat>
yeah same
<heat>
i don't even do capra
<zid>
the corridor to capra is the worst room in the game
<heat>
last playthrough i had to cuz i wanted the pyro glove
<heat>
for pw
<zid>
you can't run through it and you can't power through it
<zid>
you don't need to kill capra for pyro glove
<heat>
yeah i need the L guy to give me a glove?
<zid>
you need the key to get swampboi out
<zid>
then you can just go back up the stairs and go into the back entrance to parish, just before the lightning resin chest / black knight with blue ring
<heat>
you can only get to the depths if you kill capra though
<heat>
unless im missing something
<zid>
right, but you don't need to go to the depths to get to swampboi
<zid>
oh wait am I thinking of
<zid>
griggs?
<heat>
yes
<zid>
ah I swapped them
<heat>
swampboi is in the barrel
<zid>
they both are
<zid>
just in different houses
<zid>
So yea, you have to do the lame corridor
<zid>
then kil^W FIREBOMB CHEESE capra
<heat>
lame corridor lame boss and then lame cheating torch hollows
<zid>
I just get mine from eingyi
<heat>
ooohhh thats a good idea
<mcrod>
ah, comfort..
<zid>
It needs 11 int though, that's why you went to blight town instead, 8 INT heat
<zid>
mcrod: back to firelink?
<heat>
ah
<mcrod>
yes
<zid>
good good, go get some large tits and make a +9 something or other
<mcrod>
a large what
<zid>
tits.
<heat>
you dont need that
<mcrod>
ah, yes. tits.
<zid>
He's a beginner he 'needs' it
<heat>
1) get uncursed
<zid>
he should alreayd be uncursed
<zid>
he came back to firelink
<heat>
2) farm for fucking levels and get decent strength
<mcrod>
uh
<mcrod>
no i'm still cursed
<zid>
okay then
<heat>
3) get the zwei
<zid>
you know the aqueduct that takes you to upper berg, with the dragon?
<heat>
4) ???
<heat>
5) giant daddy time
<mcrod>
uh, i thin kso
<mcrod>
think*
<zid>
don't turn left in it, go all the way to the bottom, there's a merchant on the other side of the bars (opposite end to the rat)
<zid>
but you need to open the gate from the other side
<zid>
which is how you SHOULD have gotten here, from the depths
<zid>
because it's literally connected to the depths directly
<zid>
(The room you can see? That's where the rats in the water are)
<mcrod>
ok i'm at new londo ruins
<zid>
(and the torch hollows)
<zid>
lol gj
<zid>
how did you manage tha- oh I know
<zid>
You can technically get purging stones there
<zid>
but it's a pain in the bum
<zid>
heat: look at pictures, tell me how this isn't a direct connection to the depths?
<zid>
where else can you go? spain?
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<zid>
mcrod: way easier is to just do what you already did to get to the depths, but take the other door right before going in
<heat>
right, i thought you meant it took you LITERALLY to the area
<heat>
ohhhhhhhh mofo is going to ingward??
<heat>
my man
<heat>
DO NOT
<heat>
go back!
<zid>
yea, do not go to ingward for purging stones
<heat>
fucking hell that's not a house you want to go to
<zid>
unless you wanna learn an entire new area
<zid>
it's about as hard as getting to blight town bonfire
<heat>
wdym?
<heat>
that's pretty easy(tm)
<zid>
The difficulty of getting to ingward the first time
<zid>
is the same difficulty of getting to blight town's upper bonfire for the first time
<heat>
getting through the ghosts is so fucking hard
<zid>
it's a very very short path though
<heat>
even in my 10th run or whatever im at
<zid>
takes about 45 seconds
<zid>
but you NEED to be able to speedrun it, else you get buttfucked by ghosts
<heat>
sure, if they dont stun you on the ladder
<zid>
yea there's a bit of rng there
<zid>
I give it 70/30 that you make it per attempt
<zid>
if you're fast at menuing you can throw on havel's/stone/etc
<zid>
and make it every time
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<heat>
yeah if you have poise it's substancially easier
<zid>
I mean, it's just free
<heat>
i guess the knight set has poise
<zid>
but the menuing is hard
<zid>
you can't afford to wear it on the way there
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<zid>
but you need it on the ladder, so you have to quickly throw it on
<mcrod>
ok so
<mcrod>
I somehow managed to kill like 8 ghosts
<mcrod>
now there's a big spooky one
<mcrod>
I am scared
<zid>
yea, gj on being cursed
<mcrod>
question
<heat>
OH RIGHT YOU'RE CURSED
<heat>
haha
<mcrod>
do I go through the fog wall
<zid>
yea
<zid>
the boss is 8398493 miles away
<mcrod>
ok
<zid>
you won't ever ever get to it accidentally
<zid>
go nuts
<heat>
you can't get to the boss anyway
<zid>
He can, he'll just die
<zid>
cus he hasn't got the spoiler
<heat>
unless you do some ELITE exploit glitches
<zid>
he needs to talk to ingward first regardless though
<zid>
to get the key
<heat>
you can just snipe him
<zid>
'talk'
<zid>
considering he wants purging stones, I don't imagine he'll be doing firebomb cheese on the npc that sells them
<zid>
he isn't 8 INT like you heat
<mcrod>
...
<mcrod>
ok well I kicked down a ladder before dying
<heat>
anywya i think speedrunners now have a fancy exploit where they fuck around in blighttown around the boss's cave and fall through the floor or some shit into new londo's boss
<heat>
or something stupid like that
<mcrod>
so maybe I don't have to suffer
<mcrod>
hopefully I can get to the ladder
<zid>
I mean, you chose to suffer by going here
<zid>
rather than the aqueduct
<mcrod>
ok i'll go to the aqueduct
<zid>
did you ever go up the spiral tower
<mcrod>
the who
<zid>
and open the gate
<mcrod>
the what
<zid>
When you killed capra
<zid>
you went down a staircase
<zid>
into a long curving road
<mcrod>
yes i believe so
<zid>
and opened a small door to a building, where a man with a bag on his head tried to murder you
<zid>
along with some torch hollows and some dogs
<mcrod>
no
<zid>
then you went down a hole and saw a giant rat
<zid>
You will be in a tower (it's the twin of the one havel's in)
<zid>
with a single archer hollow
<mcrod>
yes
<mcrod>
I came through there
<zid>
the ONE way it can take you
<zid>
is through the aqueduct
<zid>
with the undead merchant, and shortcut back to firelink
<zid>
the undead merchant sells purging stones
<mcrod>
yes
<mcrod>
I know that part
<zid>
so you're done
<zid>
buy the stone, unlock the gate, be at firelink while uncursed
<mcrod>
right. if you've been telling me where to get purging stones, I've been knowing where to go
<mcrod>
I've done this part already
<mcrod>
but I don't have the souls necessary to buy purging stones
<mcrod>
yet
<zid>
2k afaik?
<zid>
kill a random hollow or two in firelink
<mcrod>
no it's 6000 goddamn souls
<zid>
mcrod: What you told *us* when we told you to buy a purging stone from the aqueduct was "Oh I think I know where that is..." "..Oh I found new londo ruins!"
<mcrod>
yeah yeah I know
<mcrod>
my bad
<mcrod>
first off, I might as well give andre his stupid ember
<zid>
no
<zid>
first off
<zid>
you buy a purging stone
<mcrod>
right
<mcrod>
but I need money
<zid>
> kill a random hollow or two in firelink
<mcrod>
and for me to get money I need to kill
<heat>
souls*
<mcrod>
yes I know it's souls
<mcrod>
.
<mcrod>
dude I have 1,400 souls
<mcrod>
one random or two isn't going to cut it
<zid>
sit at bonfire in firelink, kill the guys outside the viaduct
<zid>
sit back down
<zid>
repeat all of.. twice
<zid>
it will take approximately 40 seconds
<mcrod>
half way there.
<zid>
(it's a viaduct on the firelink side because it transfers dragons, not water. Dracoduct?)
<heat>
so do u guys like paging
<mcrod>
by the way
<heat>
or are you segmentation-stans
<mcrod>
it does not take 40 seconds
<mcrod>
I get like 150 souls total from each run
<zid>
have you pressed the run button yet
<mcrod>
run buttons don't change math
<mcrod>
and yes
<zid>
oh she charges double, just looked it up
<zid>
I thought you were 1600 away, not 4600 away
<zid>
is your dragonboi still alive?
<mcrod>
my who
<zid>
big red flappy
<mcrod>
what
<mcrod>
also i'm 2,262 souls away
<zid>
goes woosh with fire
<mcrod>
you need to stop speaking this moonman language
<zid>
did you go past him and kick the shortuct ladder down?
<heat>
go up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down
<mcrod>
i believe so
<zid>
go do that then
<mcrod>
after dying to that thing 20 times
<zid>
your mistake was not being naked
<zid>
dragons are afraid of naked people
<mcrod>
i'm not wearing pants
<mcrod>
that's not good enough?
<zid>
good
<mcrod>
ok i have 6000
<zid>
get a bit more
<zid>
so you can go nuts at andre
<zid>
small tits are 800 from andre if you need any to upgrade a hand axe or whatever
<zid>
plus if you want you can buy two stones, one to use and one to use in 30 mins when you walk into a basilisk again and spazz your controller out instead of running away
<mcrod>
i got cursed because I thought I was alone and then talked here
<mcrod>
so
<mcrod>
:(
<zid>
don't suppose you have the master key?
<mcrod>
i do
<zid>
depths was 100% skippable then :p
<zid>
(and most of blight town)
<Griwes>
today must be a really slow osdev day lol