<bslsk05>
www.rankedftw.com: Population - 1v1 Stats - Ranked FTW - StarCraft II Ladder Rankings
<mjg>
interesting, sc2 keeps holding on
<mjg>
literally 1000 x quek player base :D
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<heat>
mjg: all of them use pessimal strategies
<heat>
statistically 99.9% of them have never used dtrace to get a flamegraph
<heat>
a rocket league fg
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<gog>
hi
<zid>
sido
<zid>
it's too earyyl
<zid>
go hobe
* kazinsal
gives gog scritchies
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<lechner>
Hi, is it possible to link a dynamic module intended for dlopen(3) in such a way that it refers to no other shared libraries?
<zid>
yes, don't think it against other shared libraries
<zid>
link it*
<lechner>
i don't think i have that choice. more specifically, i would like to completely resolve any libc symbols in the module so that the calling executable (which does the dlopen) can use a different version of libc
<zid>
static link a libc in, write your own for it, etc
<bslsk05>
codeberg.org: guile-pam/Makefile.am at 65fef0971761f5b70191350884429da5bddcb4fa - guile-pam - Codeberg.org
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<zid>
I have to debug your build system now too? Demanding :P
<zid>
-l:c.a or whatever the .a file for your libc is
<lechner>
i have never seen the .a extension specified with -l. does that work?
<zid>
with : it does
<zid>
it works with any extension infact
<zid>
: just means "do the path lookup stuff, but use this filename" rather than "do the path lookup stuff, then add lib$0.so"
<lechner>
it works with both the GNU and the LLVM linkers?
<zid>
no idea about llvm I've never used it, but they aim to be compatible with the basic options I thought
<zid>
failing that, you can just give it the full path
<lechner>
yeah, i get it now i think
<lechner>
i hope we ship those static libraries
<lechner>
wow, thanks so much for that idea! is 'nm' still the best way to show unresolved symbols (to make sure it worked)?
<zid>
that's what I'd use at least
<zid>
god knows if it's 'the best'
<zid>
ldd pretty handy too ofc
<lechner>
okay, i just haven't done this since the 1990s. thanks so much!
<zid>
do I get a free debian or something
<lechner>
i can get you one but i'm on gnu guix now
<Ermine>
!
<lechner>
great resources in your community btw. i have rarely seen so much quality info in one place
<zid>
wait, we have a community!?
<zid>
Who's going around spreading this slander
<lechner>
okay, website
<zid>
not even ours, technically :P
<zid>
some guy runs it and we have to send emails to tell him it's down
<lechner>
sounds like the rest of the universe
<lechner>
either way, thanks so much!
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<zid>
smh didn't even get a free debian
<Ermine>
So this channel is one thing and wiki.osdev.org is another?
<zid>
yep
<kazinsal>
the association between the forums/wiki and this IRC have always been hazy for as long as both partitions have been a thing
<zid>
and the third a third, obviously
<zid>
err discord a
<zid>
given we have a feud
<kazinsal>
I think unofficially we're close enough but officially separate
<kazinsal>
a lot of the forums/wiki staff are ops here
<kazinsal>
but chase is a bit of an enigma to summon
<kazinsal>
and since we cannot reliably get a hold of the man who has the god mode buttons on the osdev.org properties we cannot really claim to be directly related
<kazinsal>
but it's always worked that way and we keep it that way out of familiarity
<lechner>
i think i am the only one on IRC who uses "/" as a separator. the comma was regular English punctuation
<lechner>
it requires less thinking for something like this
<gog>
.gog//meow
<lechner>
zid / kazinsal / thanks for being part of this community, if not the forums
<kazinsal>
aye, I have a forums account but I rarely check it as it's much easier to just have an irccloud instance on a cheap 1080p monitor on my desk
<kazinsal>
been around here long enough that it's worth the four bucks a month or whatever
<lechner>
for what it's worth, i get the impression that there is some real engineering talent here
<zid>
gog: The plan worked, we tricked everybody
<gog>
i have a talent for being a terrible programmer
<kazinsal>
unfortunately my fun research work is all in a field that was solved six or seven years ago by applying copious amounts of money to ASIC development
<lechner>
what was that, please?
<kazinsal>
so all my weird osdev code is basically trying to implement modern ASIC work in x86-64 spftware
<kazinsal>
high performance multilayer network switching
<zid>
kazinsal is a spy
<kazinsal>
I will never be able to match or beat ASIC switching in software
<zid>
yea networking just seems tailor made for hw accel
<kazinsal>
I'm a partner of all the major network vendors and the stuff they do is massively beyond what I can even pretend to do in software
* gog
accelerates
<kazinsal>
even the most bland of them is still beyond what I can do because what I do in software they can do in ASIC
<kazinsal>
cisco and juniper ASICs are fuckin insane
<kazinsal>
I spent a week down in vegas last month schmoozing on cisco's dime. the most enlightening thing I had encountered was buying some cisco ASIC people some beers and talking about their platform and it's just magic imbued into silicon
<kazinsal>
(the most fun thing was going to a gwen stefani / blake shelton concert on cisco's dime, but the educational benefit of that was obvioously nonexistent)
<gog>
are you a holla back girl kazinsal
<gog>
(i am)
<kazinsal>
oh man she played some awesome songs
<kazinsal>
some classic meme worthy gwen tracks
<kazinsal>
and also a bunch of no doubt
<lechner>
wow, i'm actually younger than her
<kazinsal>
my coworkers were just hanging out in the balcony near the open bar and I'm glad I was like
<kazinsal>
nah fuck this I'm gonna go grab a bunch of beers and go down to the floor
<kazinsal>
gwen stefani rocked that fuckin house so hard
<kazinsal>
and blake shelton had the right amount of smooth for it
<kazinsal>
pop country isn't really usually my jam but floor seats and dudes wandering around handing out beers? fuck yeah
<kazinsal>
once you get old in osdev you start to appreciate the finer things in life: weird academic unix design, the NT kernel, and the underpinnings of modern pop country
<lechner>
the NT kernel?
<kazinsal>
oh yeah, there are many editions of books about the innards of NT that are worth reading
<kazinsal>
absolutely paths to enlightment
<kazinsal>
the original books are good for a fundamentals perspective
<lechner>
alas, a forbidden fruit for me
<kazinsal>
Helen Custer wrote the original Inside Windows NT that is definitely worth reading
<lechner>
actually, i was hoping to maybe find some folks here excited about L4 and such
<kazinsal>
David Solomon worked on the revision for Windows NT 4.0
<kazinsal>
the current revision is Windows Internals Seventh Edition, Volumes I and II
<gog>
the NT kernel is cool actually
<kazinsal>
very good books to own for one's library
<lechner>
how do you know it's cool. can i take a peek at the source code somewhere?
<kazinsal>
my own library is about 30% OS and hardware crud and 70% deep wizardry
<kazinsal>
source is not everything young padawan
<kazinsal>
description can be often more enlightening
<kazinsal>
you can look at LXR and go "hmm yes, this is a linux" but not understand it
<kazinsal>
or you can read a chapter of a book about an operating system's memory manager and truly understand it
<kazinsal>
in the latter case you've seen no source but have gained knowledge
<kazinsal>
much like if you watch a live performance of a song and play along with it while watching the original performer's mannerisms, you have gained understanding of how that song is performed in front of 50,000 people
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<mjg>
wtf peoplez
<kazinsal>
which tf are you w-ing
<mjg>
whatever os book you readin' i highly recommend taking any claims of gratness with a barrel of salt
<mjg>
solaris internals if my favourite example of dogshit described as great stuff bro
<mjg>
heat: that's right
<kazinsal>
there are many OS books and I personally like the ones that are more explanatory than source dumps
<kazinsal>
they teach much more than raw dump
<mjg>
that said, if a NT book describes something, you have to assume it is a loller
<heat>
freebsd is raw dump
<heat>
wtf nah NT is a good kernal
<heat>
bad take
<mjg>
ey were my fgraphs at
<heat>
up yer arse
<mjg>
OH
<sham1>
heat: of course it's a bad take. Look at the source
<kazinsal>
I have most of the NT books and they're all written by people who have been variously involved in the NT kernel and the lower levels of user space
<kazinsal>
you can read a tome that describes a closed source machina and come out of it with lots of understanding
<kazinsal>
not only about that system but of systems in general
<lechner>
i don't believe it
<heat>
mjg: my kernel symbols aren't working well so I may have to fuck with that for a bit
<kazinsal>
I am not a pianist but as a musician I can watch Elton John play and gain a greater understanding of Bennie And The Jets
<mjg>
i had a look at the published "researched kernel"
<mjg>
heat: stack() does not resolve them?
<heat>
no
* mjg
huh
<mjg>
did you enable debugging?
<mjg>
bcdedit something
<mjg>
it is in the manual
<heat>
i enabled dtrace
<mjg>
lemme find it
<kazinsal>
trying to understand by mentally deconstructing source code is folly
<mjg>
heat: if you install windbg and get that to work, i suspect it iwll sort it out
<mjg>
heat: it has an ez button to attach to live kernel which tells you what to do to enable the machinery
<heat>
i may end up using google/UIForETW
<heat>
should work just as well for flamegraphs
<mjg>
whatever which gets the kernel-side fg is fine with me
<mjg>
anyhow, i had seen the "research kernel" pubilshed by ms which is 2003 SP1 i think
<mjg>
i only checked some parts and they are *crap*
<heat>
have you considered that it's 20 years old
<mjg>
it was always crap
<heat>
you usually don't consider that bit
<mjg>
sure i do
<heat>
you do not
<mjg>
mr sysctl is crap
<kazinsal>
man weird that several billion run on it
<heat>
no kazinsal that's Java!
<mjg>
so in this particular case their equivalent of preempt_enable or critical_exit
<mjg>
is PESSIMAL
<heat>
have you MEASURED
<kazinsal>
and yet I can run cutting edge graphics engines at 120 Hz unbroken on said pile of shit kernel
<heat>
a certain "bryan cantrill" said you should measure
<kazinsal>
with previous generation hardware and a 1440p144 monitor
<heat>
meanwhile linux gaming:
<mjg>
kazinsal: on that note windows was running on hundreds of millions of machines in early 00s
<mjg>
no way it was insecure or slow
<mjg>
innit
<kazinsal>
system works for me
<mjg>
also node.js is so widespread it has to be good
<mjg>
proof by popularity innit
<kazinsal>
I have a couple nodejs based apps on my machine and they work
<heat>
node.js isn't bad
<mjg>
is this a twilight zone episode
<heat>
have you looked at node?
<heat>
the actual runtime?
<kazinsal>
it's not the twilight zone
<mjg>
a little bit back in the day
<kazinsal>
you're just an idiot.
<mjg>
aight
<heat>
it works a-ok, sure it doesn't work for everyone or on every possible use case, but it's good
<heat>
sometimes the right tool for the job is node
<heat>
sometimes it isn't
<mjg>
next i'm goin to hear rust indeed has fearless concurrency
<kazinsal>
rust is okay
<kazinsal>
zig is idiot grade crap
<mjg>
php is not crap by definition, i mean it was powering the web in tearly 00s
<mjg>
the early*
<kazinsal>
PHP is pretty cool
<mjg>
innit
<kazinsal>
I like it
<mjg>
you ok kazinsal
<Mutabah>
mjg: At the kernel level, rust more has "high confidence concurrency" - because the person who wrote the threading code is an idiot
<heat>
why is everyone so hostile today
<Mutabah>
(the idiot is me... because it's osdev and you write your own threading code)
<kazinsal>
with modern interfaces you can blast out super easy quick PHP to do all sorts of cool backend stuff
<mjg>
Mutabah: i'm personally offended by rust marketing
<lechner>
i would be cautious about bashing Zig
<heat>
gog: hi
<gog>
heat
<mjg>
Mutabah: not only they don't have "fearless concurrency", but what they do have is very primitive
<gog>
hi
<kazinsal>
the biggest problem with modern PHP is the shit tutorials
<heat>
gog: everyone's so hostile can u send out some vibez
<kazinsal>
with modern database interface documentation PHP is fuckin great
<gog>
heat: no fuck you
<mjg>
Mutabah: if you got anything but a usecase where you take one lock at most, the language has nothing
<heat>
FUCK YOU TOO
<gog>
heat:
* kazinsal
pats gog
<gog>
heat i'm sorry i was joking
* gog
prr
<heat>
gog: no problem i was also joking
<kazinsal>
nyan~
<gog>
nyaaa~
<heat>
gog: do u like my genz memes
<Mutabah>
gog, heat - maybe chill the language a bit :)
<heat>
are they funny
<kazinsal>
prrrr
<gog>
yes
<lechner>
i get it now. you folks are all friends
<heat>
(X) Doubt
<gog>
bazinga
<kazinsal>
maybe, but we're all also just experienced
<kazinsal>
that's the important part
<kazinsal>
we have knowledge and we give a shit.
<lechner>
experienced or opinionated?
<gog>
Mutabah: :)
<gog>
both
<mjg>
maybe sunday could be a politically correct day
<mjg>
pretend you are at work in a corp
<kazinsal>
I may like the NT kernel because I have spent many months working in its boughs
<mjg>
as in doublespeak all day
<kazinsal>
but also because I use it day to day
<zid>
The opposit eof experienced and opinionated is r/confidentlyincorrect
<kazinsal>
I am a Windows desktop user for many reasons
<kazinsal>
but I also have many BSD and Linux machines running in my apartment
<kazinsal>
and I own a VAX
<gog>
i'm using linux when i'm at home and windows when i'm at work
<kazinsal>
and a few classic Macintoshes
<kazinsal>
I have pretty much every type of machine represented in this 600 sqft
<kazinsal>
I've run out of opinionation
<kazinsal>
because I have too many cycles running every type of system
<heat>
what BSD do you have?
<heat>
4.4 or bust
<Ermine>
gog: may I pet you
<gog>
yes
* Ermine
pets gog
* gog
prr
<kazinsal>
in practice, an openBSD machine as my firewall, a freeBSD VM running my build system, NetBSD running on my dead VAX, and a roughly equivalent NetBSD system in SIMH
<kazinsal>
I've been an OpenBSD user for 20 of my 29 years on this eath
<kazinsal>
earth*
<heat>
noooooooooooOoooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooo
<kazinsal>
I've been in the open source sphere since I was introduced to it as a youngin
<kazinsal>
because my uncle was and OpenBSD contributor, and also a developer of the software that runs the trains in our city
<gog>
traaains
<gog>
choo choo
<kazinsal>
his involvement in seltrac and thus the software that runs the SkyTrain is a reason I'm still a passionate programmer
<heat>
chooooooooochoooooooooooooooooooooo
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<heat>
i hate software i hate software i hate software
<kazinsal>
and the reason I'm still a magical bullshit multisite hyperconverged internetwork engeer
<kazinsal>
or whatever I get paid for these days
<kazinsal>
I say, two of three weeks of vacation
* Ermine
turns on "Thomas & Friends" music
<kazinsal>
I have exactly no idea what I'll be coming back to at work and it rocks
<kazinsal>
effectively gives me four weeks of vacation out of three because I can just go "buhhhhhh what" for a week
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<gog>
my co-worker is supposed to be coming back this week idk though
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<kazinsal>
I still have a week to compose the most effective "buuhhhhhh what"s
<gog>
he was on vacation but now is on sick leave
<kazinsal>
gog: good news, it isn't me
<gog>
:P
<kazinsal>
I live in the datacenter networking engineer sphere and thus you are all free of me
<heat>
kazinsal: what if you come back to "exactly the same thing"
<heat>
what happens to your plan there
<heat>
"buhhhhhhhhhh what" "this is literally the same thing" "i got temporary amnesia?"
<kazinsal>
if my department has made zero dollars in almost a month despite not being a manager type I will fire people
<kazinsal>
I will be on my director's doorstep day one going "hello my friend I will be firing people"
<kazinsal>
I don't care about profitability while I'm gone apart from "keep the team from being absorbed"
<heat>
aha and you'll be taking exactly 1 week to figure out who to fire?
<kazinsal>
if you have managed to collapse all of General Delivery in three weeks of my absence I will need another two weeks to get drunk and cry
<kazinsal>
if you act too dangerously you will break the timeline and I will become a coworker of gog
<kazinsal>
and she would not like that
<kazinsal>
apart from obtaining a slightly twinkish catboy to meld in her image
<gog>
OwO
<heat>
UwU
<kazinsal>
merrrnyan
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<kazinsal>
I get the slightly worrying feeling that gog-sama is on board with having a twinkish catboy to meld in her image
<kazinsal>
only slightly
<mcrod>
hi
<gog>
i already have a maid costume for you as it so happens
<gog>
obligatory catears and collar
<kazinsal>
oh
<kazinsal>
oh goodness
<mcrod>
what the fuck did I just walk into
<gog>
you know what it is
<kazinsal>
:3
<kazinsal>
me: "lol im catboy nyan" gog: "YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT NOW DROP AND GIVE ME 50"
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<gog>
:P
<heat>
😾
<kazinsal>
apropos of nothing a buddy of mine is stuck on the tarmac in a plane at reykjavik
<GeDaMo>
Glue? :|
<kazinsal>
i blame gog somehow
<gog>
at reykjavik or at keflavik
<kazinsal>
KEF
<gog>
not my fault
<sham1>
Would it also be your fault on the other aeroport?
<gog>
no
<gog>
my area of effect is not that large
<kazinsal>
shameful
<gog>
ikr
<kazinsal>
you must expand your powers to such significance
<kazinsal>
become a thousand kilometres of mommy
<gog>
:P
* kazinsal
offers gog pets
* gog
accept and prr
* kazinsal
nyans
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<gog>
hi
<gog>
what if i reimplemented unix
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<mjg>
gog: nobody does that
<bl4ckb0ne>
gog speedrun posix compliance any%
<gog>
i'll need a copy of the sus
<gog>
amogus
<mjg>
sus is sus innit
<zid>
sus v. ery
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<gog>
amogusus
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<moon-child>
gog ritchie
<Ermine>
what if i reimplement dos
<mjg>
if you reimplemented does while making the reuslt compatible with all the 3rd party memory managers 'n shit
<mjg>
then i would both impressed and confused why anyone would do it
<mjg>
be*
* mjg
notes the windows 95 folkz had to do it to an extent
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<heat>
reimplementing UNIX is BRUH
<heat>
reimplement Linux instead
<heat>
or better, reimplement Solaris
<mjg>
you can't improve on solaris
<heat>
make mjg upset by writing your very own mutex_enter
<mjg>
don't even try
<mjg>
solaris is the multicore marvell just like rust
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<gog>
meow
<gog>
what else is there to reimplement
<gog>
you've got your unixes
<gog>
you've got your windowses
<gog>
mac os classic?
<zid>
monorail
<bnchs>
OS-9
<bl4ckb0ne>
plan 9
<bnchs>
i will never forget about OS-9
<gog>
reimplement templeos
<heat>
do not reimplement anything
<heat>
cease programming
<heat>
enjoy real life
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DanielNechtan is now known as bombuzal
<bnchs>
♫ os-9's in my mind~ i cannot get it out ♫
<CompanionCube>
VMS? Multics? any of the IBM OSes? plenty of weird other things to satisfy 'what else to reimplement'
<gog>
heat: no
<gog>
my real life is a disaster that i refuse to do anything about
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<zid>
same
<zid>
moreso even
<gog>
mood, one might even say
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<Ermine>
Reimplementing TempleOS is OSDev pilgrimage
<mjg>
templeos is ez
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