ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | https://kisscommunity.org | post logs or else | "An idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity." -- Terry A. Davis
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<acheam>
Quiet here today
<noocsharp>
story time
<noocsharp>
i moved into a new apartment a few weeks ago which came with a tv, but they didn't give us a remote (some bs about using your phone as a remote)
<noocsharp>
but apparently this tv exposes a remote control interface over tcp
<noocsharp>
so i spent several hours learning go and writing a web app so me and my roommates can control the tv
<acheam>
Lol nice
<acheam>
Why go?
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<noocsharp>
i've been looking for an excuse to learn go, just feels like one of those things i should have some familiarity with
<acheam>
I wonder if you could control your neighbors TV...
<acheam>
Cool
<freem>
Hi.
<acheam>
Hi.
<noocsharp>
Hi.
<noocsharp>
nah, it's on the local network
<acheam>
Oh
<acheam>
So how do you hook it up without a remote?
<acheam>
Buttons on the TV?
<noocsharp>
yeah, it has the ip address and port in one of the menus
<freem>
Just intend to hand in here, not installed kiss yet. Might have general questions about how some internal stuff could work. Is that ok?
<acheam>
Yes
<freem>
neat
<freem>
s/hand/hang/
<cotangent>
<freem> neat
<noocsharp>
is cotangent broken?
<noocsharp>
s/broken/not working/
<cotangent>
<noocsharp> is cotangent not working?
* freem
was wondering about that ping
<freem>
oh, get it, it's a sed bot
<noocsharp>
oh wait, the last message you sent was `neat`, nvm
<freem>
yes and no
<freem>
oh
<freem>
the sed regex didn't applied, so it replaced nothing
<freem>
yes, was a classic case of brain lag :)
<freem>
that place was not easy to find btw
<acheam>
What place?
<freem>
this one.
<acheam>
Oh
<acheam>
Papa dylan doesn't love us :(
<acheam>
Won't link to us anywhere
<freem>
lot of guessing to find it :)
<acheam>
I mean the name is pretty obvious
<acheam>
On the biggest FOSS network
<freem>
guess, tinker, search, guess again, rage, continue anyway, you know the drill
<freem>
at 1st I tried with K1ss
<freem>
then k1sslinux
<freem>
followed random more or less interesting 404 links :)
<freem>
but I found the place, so I guess it means it can be done
<freem>
which of those affirmations are correct, concerning k1ss: 1:"is it is a rolling release", 2:"it is a source distro", 3:"it manages optional dependencies", 4:"it requires PAM" ?
<freem>
(https://kisscommunity.org feels like a rather empty page pointing at here and github and co)
<noocsharp>
it's rolling release in the sense that it doesn't have releases
<noocsharp>
3 and 4 are not true
<freem>
none of my checks were accompanied with negative idea, I'm just asking about the distro, and, how many of it's idea I could copy :)
<freem>
so, kiss does not requires PAM?
<freem>
noocsharp: that particular point is quite interesting to me. If it does not require PAM, does it supports, e.g. LDAP?
<freem>
if yes, how? BSDauth?
<noocsharp>
kiss is more of a meta-distribution where you can package software yourself and build any sort of system that you want
<noocsharp>
if you want pam, you can have it, but nothing requires it
<freem>
(yes, I consider this general questions about how internal stuff could work
<freem>
)
<noocsharp>
and you would have to configure software to use pam yourself
<noocsharp>
(tbh not really sure how pam works)
<noocsharp>
there is no requirement of a specific init system, service manager, or anything else
<noocsharp>
you get to pick and choose components as you please
<noocsharp>
but the downside is you may have to do a lot of the packaging and configuration yourself
<freem>
well
<freem>
PAM is about using traditional plugins
<freem>
dynamic libary linking, dlopen.
<freem>
that's the thing that I dislike about it.
<freem>
and anything doing stuff linked to auth can break badly if a PAM module is buggy or misconfigured, to the point it prevents you do do any file access: it's _likely_ tightly coupled with glibc
<freem>
BSDauth, which is, AFAIK, only used by openBSD, opted for a different model, saner imo: client-server
<freem>
instead of importing symbols in the binaries, they use AF_UNIX to share rights
<freem>
I like this security model, and a linux distro using it would clearly have a strong point to make me switch :) if I can't find any, I plan to build it.
<freem>
it's not glibc the problem
<freem>
it's the GNU/ of GNU/linux
<freem>
all the tooling relies on PAM for obvious reasons
<noocsharp>
well the core kiss system uses musl, so it was forked to use glibc
<noocsharp>
i guess i should have said "if the lack of glibc is stopping you"
<freem>
hehe
<freem>
I don't think the problem there is glibc itself
<freem>
the problems are the tools accessing /etc/passwd
<freem>
and the likes
<freem>
there are 3 models, from what I understand, in the unix-like world
<freem>
the UNIX one: read the file under SUID and don't care
<freem>
the PAM one: rely on libPAM and it's modules which are loaded directly inside the binary (code injections, basically)
<freem>
and openBSD (and plan9?) one: use a client-server architecture
<freem>
voidlinux for example uses PAM, despite having both glibc and mulc builds
<noocsharp>
ah, i wasn't sure if it was one of those projects that just supports glibc
<freem>
void have a musl build, and I only used that one :)
<freem>
I used it on my secondary boot, so, only from time to time. Never broke, always felt fast, compared to debian, but I had not yet tweaked the init to death
<freem>
still, it's proven to me that glibc requires a lot of RSS for each process: around 640Kio wasted, each time
<freem>
being a runit user, it means a lot to me
<noocsharp>
well, if you like the kiss package manager, it might be worth looking into building your PAM based system on top of it
<noocsharp>
it seems to lend itself pretty well to forking
<freem>
the point is, I do _not_ want pam :)
<freem>
but more importantly, I want stuff I can understand
<freem>
(which is why I'm here)
<noocsharp>
oh
<freem>
and yet might support neat stuff like, LAN auth
<noocsharp>
i mean you have ssh for that, right?
<freem>
I won't hide it: I have much to learn
<freem>
no
<freem>
ssh is fine, sure, to log in
<freem>
it does not handle syncing of auth or that kind of stuff
<freem>
usual solution for those are either Active Directory (MS only); LDAP+KRB5; or SMB
<freem>
SMB... samba... is a reverse engineering of AD
<freem>
LDAP+KRB5 is not easy to setup
<freem>
and in all cases they imply using a distant host to identity a user
<noocsharp>
huh, didn't know about those
<freem>
they are usually not known outside of professional circles :)
<freem>
if you administer a single system, you don't need them
<freem>
but if you administer, say, 200 systems?
<freem>
and have, say, 20 colleagues accessing those remote systems, which are physically distant by several dozens of kilomters from each other?
<freem>
I think that kind of setup should be made simpler. Nowadays, it's a real pain to setup and even worse to learn to setup
<freem>
I dislike that situation, and I'm searching for inspiration in here, now :)
<freem>
one of my dreams is to revive the idea of a distro which would be multikernel: both linux and a BSD
<noocsharp>
huh, never heard of systems like that
<freem>
but even reaching the stage in which a distro (except kernel) would be maintainable by a reduced set of individuals (less than 10) code wide while still giving decent security "guarantees" is not easy
<freem>
noocsharp: debian tried. They had an official kFreeBSD port
<acheam>
Oh you mean not at the same time
<freem>
they still have a non-official kHurd port
<freem>
no
<acheam>
Kiss doesnt care what kernel you use
<acheam>
Would be easy enough to maintain a BSD version
<freem>
I meant, have the core distro able to work with different kernels, with different binaries
<acheam>
In fact I'm thinking of doing so
<freem>
oh... binaries... source... heh
<freem>
you are?
<freem>
acheam: which BSD?
<acheam>
Open
<acheam>
Becuase ports have been frustrating me
<freem>
hehhhh I'd give a hand if I can
<freem>
depends, what are your goals?
<acheam>
Replace ports on my system
<freem>
I'm stranger to the notion of ports (but I build my own debian packages, and code my own stuff). What is the problem with them?
<acheam>
The system itself is clunky
<acheam>
And the ports themselves are bloated
<freem>
I thought in the *BSD you needed to compile stuff... what prevents one to remove options?
<acheam>
Lots of dependencies like dbus
<freem>
haha
<acheam>
I just use precompiled packages
<acheam>
You can change the options
<acheam>
But then you don't get nice dependency checking
<freem>
the packages I rebuild are notably because I want to be free from dbus, too
<acheam>
And still the clunky port systems
<freem>
basically, I want to be free from those: systemd, dbus, pulseaudio, jack. I have no use for their features.
<freem>
jack is the reasonable one of the set, mind you
<freem>
debian still offers few features I love (I admit it): recommends (opt-in deps) and impressive stability
<freem>
but, I'm more here to see what k1ss could offer. I remember `su` segfaulting because of a PAM module
<freem>
this is far worse than systemd to me
<freem>
I need to find a way around that stupid PAM model. I think openbsd's BSDauth can be it, but can't find decent information on it.
<freem>
so, acheam: if you really intend to work on that idea, please share a repo, or a TODO-list.
* freem
refrains to talk about that newly discovered VYM tool for that
<freem>
oops
<testuser[m]>
Hi
<freem>
command not found: testuser
<freem>
hi testuser[m] (and sorry for my bad jokes)
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<acheam>
Good morning testuser
<freem>
do matrix users require the @ or the [m] when pinging them?
<testuser[m]>
no
<testuser[m]>
it pings like irc
<freem>
:)
<freem>
then again, sorry for the very bad joke :)
<testuser[m]>
Why sorry
<acheam>
freem: there's not much of a to do list
<acheam>
I just need to do it
<acheam>
And I'll share a repo when I do
<acheam>
The kiss package manager will need to be slightly modified
<acheam>
Or I might just use an older version
<acheam>
Because of the exported prefix value
<acheam>
And I'm also not a huge fan of some of the newer changes
<acheam>
Will probably just patch out those things
<freem>
acheam: I'm curious to see that. Do not hesitate to ping or pm me if you need help for that project
<freem>
I don't guarantee I'll be _able_ to help, but I know my C++, I know my bourne, and I have some serious thoughts about building a distro
<freem>
oh, and, yeah, unlike one might thing, knowing my C++ means knowing my C, too
<acheam>
Thats not true
<acheam>
Good CPP looks very different from good c
<acheam>
Being good at cpp may mean that you know the syntax but not much more about c
<acheam>
Unless you have other C experience
<acheam>
But anyways, this project requires pretty much none of that, just experience with build systems, kiss, and obsd. A community repo would be welcome, but most likely not enough demand
<freem>
good cpp devs are good in all cpp paradigms, and can combine them depending on the real needs.
<freem>
and I have a small vps which could mirror or serve stuff
<acheam>
Your always free to mirror ftp.armaanb.net, where this will be published
<acheam>
Your interest is appreciated
<freem>
how much space does it takes?
<freem>
how would people find my mirror, too?
<freem>
and, my interest is about to have that ridiculous toy server be as useful as possible, to me first, and then to project I feel I can like
<freem>
k1ss is definitely one of those
<freem>
although, I won't upgrade to a CGI-able http server
<freem>
security starts by having less interactive features.
<freem>
I mean, I prefer my server to be unable to run CGI stuff, because it means less burden to me to keep it reasonably secure
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<Tikiwiki>
I'm interested to switch to Kiss from arch
<Tikiwiki>
how does it compare?
<rio6>
kiss is source based, busybox init + runit (for default), musl, you maintain your own packages
<acheam>
List of differences is longer than similarities
<acheam>
freem: not much, but idk why youd want to
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<Tikiwiki>
I'm still a noob when it comes to these things. I was mainly looking for systemd free distros. And kind of feel up to the challenge.
<freem>
not much... what, acheam?
<Tikiwiki>
By maintain my own packages do you mean there is no simple "update" command or??
<acheam>
Storage space to mirror
<acheam>
they meant there is the option to
<acheam>
You don't have to
<acheam>
And there is a simple update command
<freem>
I'm lost now
<acheam>
But you'll find yourself maintaining more and more of your own packages
<acheam>
freem: > [00:38] freem: how much space does it takes?
<acheam>
My response: not much
<rio6>
Tikiwiki: artix is a systemd-free arch fork if you want to try it
<freem>
Tikiwiki: If I understand it correctly, K1ss if ok if you are ok to maintain you're own distro, more or less. There will likely be no easy "upgrade" command
<Tikiwiki>
I didn't really enjoy artix
<acheam>
You're wrong, freem
<freem>
acheam: ok, thanks
<rio6>
`kiss u` updates everything
<freem>
I like to be wrong that way
<rio6>
but if you have your own packages, you'll need to keep track of upstream versions and update those packages
<rio6>
yourself
<Tikiwiki>
I don't really need much in the way of a DE or too many packages. I just need a wm, browser, editor and a terminal
<freem>
duh
<rio6>
they're are packages for those in the main and community repo, so if that's all you need you probably won't need to maintain lots of packages
<freem>
you forgot the cofee
<rio6>
I think sway, firefox, (busybox) vim and foot
<Tikiwiki>
I guess when I asked for a comparison of KISS and arch was thinking of KISS as a bicycle (easy to maintain and enjoy), vs arch, a bicycle made of legos.
<Tikiwiki>
nvm, I'll just give it a shot
<rio6>
yeah that's usually the best way to learn the difference :P
<freem>
all distros are made of legos?
<freem>
it just requires more or less knowledge to replace some legos with own pieces
<freem>
ah, right... all _linux_ distros are made of legos
<rio6>
for me it's more like: arch is a lego set with 100 pages of instructions (wiki) and bunch of prebuilt parts; kiss is a lego set with 10 page of instruction and no prebuilt parts
<freem>
dunno
<Tikiwiki>
I see what you mean now. I might be biting off more than I can chew. Its more like Gentoo from what I read.
<freem>
I only know that arch had broken X11 dep at install when I tried to install it
<freem>
I'm more a debian user, still instersted in K1ss because my debian is starting to be really, really heavily modified
<rio6>
I mean, one can still play lego without reading the instructions :P
<freem>
yeah
<freem>
I did play lego with debian without reading the doc
<freem>
and before, I did the same with various windows versions
<freem>
if you're curious, doc or lack of doc won't stop you
<freem>
if one can master windows' internals, there's no reason one can't master a FOSS OS
<freem>
it's so easier, after all
<freem>
you can even read the code when you doubt
* freem
is convincing nobody here...
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<Tikiwiki>
I suppose I have to download the installer from a linux system and not my macos?
<testuser[m]>
There's no installer
<freem>
maybe, s/installer/bootstrapper/?
<Tikiwiki>
I mean the tarball
<testuser[m]>
you can download it anywhere just extract it on a linux system
<freem>
but, macOS *is* a unix, and thus you have great chances to be able to fuck^W have the installer work
<Tikiwiki>
oop. I'm a tool. I got it
<Tikiwiki>
I guess I'll only comment here if I get stuck.
<freem>
huh
<Tikiwiki>
thanks for the info guys. I'm kinds of excited
<rio6>
any live distro that can download a tar, untar it, and chroot should work
<rio6>
glhf
<freem>
Tikiwiki: you're a tool?
<Tikiwiki>
tool (fool/stupid). I could just download the 5.5.28 release
<freem>
you don't talk like a hammer, I'd say, nor as a saw...
<freem>
ahhh
<freem>
oh
<testuser[m]>
that's the package manager tikiwiki
<testuser[m]>
the tarball is 2021-month-date
<freem>
well, to me, tools are useful, fools are not :)
<freem>
and we are all stupid
<Tikiwiki>
You are correct. That is the package manager. hmm
<testuser[m]>
did you open the install instructions
<testuser[m]>
then sha256sum -c < kiss-chroot-bla-bla.tar.xz.sha256
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<Tikiwiki>
what does tar xvf "$OLDPWD/$file" OLDPWD refer to?
<testuser[m]>
its set by the shell
<testuser[m]>
the previous dir u were in
<Tikiwiki>
that would just be the /mnt I was at
<Tikiwiki>
sorry I mean the home dir
<testuser[m]>
its just telling you to untar the tarball
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<Tikiwiki>
im growing moss
<Tikiwiki>
compilation...
<Tikiwiki>
Apparently I might run into issues with Luks
<Tikiwiki>
illiliti your name just popped up on a thread I was reading about using dm-plain over luks
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<illiliti>
luks+detached header is better than dm-plain
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<Tikiwiki>
I'll keep that in mind
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<claudia02>
freem: I have tried to implement the KISS 'repo' and some little packages from 'community' on OpenBSD. Some stuff builds fine, some stuff needs very special tewaking to get it run. The process is not that straightforward as to build on musl and linux ecosystem.
<Tikiwiki>
But like it was said last night kisslinux is a lego set with 10 pages of instructions and you get to do as you please. I'm not well versed in linux and was used to the abundance of guides arch came with. Not kiss' fault
<micro_O>
Anyone have suggestions for web-based youtube frontends that support 'subscriptions'
<micro_O>
i have very non-tech-saavy friends who want to delete their google accounts
<noocsharp>
rss feeds have web frontends
<micro_O>
I just use mpv but that isnt great for them
<noocsharp>
and youtube channels have rss feeds
<micro_O>
yeah I am looking for recommendations for rss clients that work well in that manner
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<acheam>
Tiny tiny rss
<noocsharp>
that's probably not ideal for non-technical users, as they have to set it up on a web server i think
<acheam>
There are hosted ones
<acheam>
Like envs.net
<acheam>
And micro is technical
<acheam>
Oh nvm missed the point
<micro_O>
Yeah it has to be hosted by someone else, or available as an iPad app. They literally don't own a laptop/desktop (by choice, and have been happier for it).
<micro_O>
If they were on Android tablet, I'd say "just use NewPipe"
<acheam>
IPad app makes it hard
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<dilyn>
arguably the easiest solution is to just encourage them to stop using youtube :^
<noocsharp>
bruh that's the hardest solution
<dilyn>
any content you find on youtube can be replaced by equivalent or better content; change my mind xD
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<micro_O>
I mean, I can probably spin up an iOS app that is made just for that. The problem is its against the App Store TOS. We don’t allow apps whose primary purpose is to provide a webview of a website, regardless of ownership, or to aggregate content that does not belong to the developer.
<noocsharp>
> or to aggregate content that does not belong to the developer.
<noocsharp>
...what!?
<Tikiwiki>
There used to be some amazing blogs but after like 2016 almost all died off. Most everything is on Reddit or YT. That used to be quality reading material
<noocsharp>
dilyn: it's not a question of quality, it's a question of discipline
<Tikiwiki>
And I have to restart this install because I don't know what I left out from last night and where I messed up
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<Guest64>
I'm at step (11 and failed to build
<Guest64>
I know pastebin can help post my CLI but it doesn't seem to work for me