jaeger changed the topic of #crux to: CRUX 3.7 | Homepage: https://crux.nu/ | Ports: https://crux.nu/portdb/ https://crux.ninja/portdb/ | Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/crux/
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: qemu-guest-agent: updated to version 8.1.3
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<nekobit> Another satisfied customer.
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<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: tenacity: initial import, version 1.3.3
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: wxgtk3: adopted, updated to 3.2.4
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: Revert "wxgtk3: dropped unmaintained port"
<SiFuh> jaeger: Hmm, interesting
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<SiFuh> jaeger: So does that mean dracut loads and configures the network card?
<SiFuh> And runs an SSH daemon?
<SiFuh> That was four years ago!
<jaeger> yeah, and in this case even sets up an alias interface with a specific VLAN tag
<SiFuh> That's pretty cool
<jaeger> agreed... not something I'd have thought of myself
<SiFuh> I wonder about the security implications though. Logging into a shell possibly obtaining super user access and able to modify contents on a filesystem remotely
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<remiliascarlet> Fun fact: one of the 3 user repositories on CRUX has updated yt-dlp to the latest version a whole week before Artix finally did in their official repositories.
<remiliascarlet> Better yet, both OpenBSD and FreeBSD updated before Artix.
<remiliascarlet> Make it seem like Artix is the new Manjaro.
<remiliascarlet> "OpenSSL suffers from Heartbleed, everyone fix it ASAP!" Even Debian and CentOS got their act together and released a patch. Manjaro on the other hand took 4 more days "to get through testing".
<SiFuh> Fun fact: Both Arch and Artix suck ;-)
<remiliascarlet> Yeah, they used to be better in the past.
<remiliascarlet> I've been going through my list of distro's I have as an ISO file, and the only 2 I still like nowadays are CRUX and Gentoo.
<remiliascarlet> And also OpenBSD, but that's not a Linux distro.
<SiFuh> I liked Sourceror
<SiFuh> Shame about that distro
<remiliascarlet> Never heard of that one.
<SiFuh> Sorcerer
<remiliascarlet> It really seems like source based distro's are getting more and more valuable as technological tyranny keeps getting bigger.
<SiFuh> I think source based distros are way better because you don't get junk installed that you may never use
<remiliascarlet> coughcoughDEPENDENCIEScoughcough
<remiliascarlet> But in a way you're right. For example, Arch loves to add systemd as a dependency for no reason at all, even in packages that don't need it.
<remiliascarlet> And Artix is a "FUCK SYSTEMD!!" distro, which encourages users to use Arch's repositories because they can't get their own repositories at the same scale.
<SiFuh> I also think that an init system should be just an init system. If you want to use sysdumbd then that should be an option and not be forced as a dependency in everything
<SiFuh> One of the cool things about CRUX is it quite simple to change the init system
<remiliascarlet> Indeed.
<SiFuh> chinarulezzz use to use sinit
<remiliascarlet> I love CRUX's RC script style init system, so I don't even see a reason to install an init system.
<remiliascarlet> CRUX boots up near instantly, even faster than Void Linux. The only thing that takes long to start is my network script, which is understandable, because it's connecting to ethernet, WiFi, and 3 different WireGuard proxies.
<remiliascarlet> Out of which, WiFi always tends to take by far the longest.
<SiFuh> Funny how it has remained almost unchanged from day one. Couple of tweaks here and there but still basically the same.
<remiliascarlet> Basically Linux as intended, but only with some handy ports related tools to make managing them easier.
<SiFuh> I actually hate wpa_supplicant. I think it is stupid. Wi-Fi should be configurable 100% by ifconfig/ip. It is bad enough ifconfig/ip needs dhcpd to get a dynamic IP
<remiliascarlet> OpenBSD kinda does that I believe.
<remiliascarlet> The only "abstraction" here is that you need to set up /etc/hostname.iwn0 or /etc/hostname.iwi0 or whatever.
<SiFuh> I like how OpenBSD does it
<SiFuh> ifconfig <Wi-Fi> scan
<remiliascarlet> Looking at DistroWatch, there are only 8 source based distro's that aren't dead. Gentoo, CRUX, and T2 SDE are listed. Then it lists LFS, which is not even a distro, and the rest of the list are all Gentoo forks.
<SiFuh> The /etc/hostname.if I think is brilliant
<SiFuh> Would like to see CRUX introduce that some day
<remiliascarlet> Shame that Linux distro's no longer ship ifconfig by default.
<SiFuh> ifconfig <Wi-Fi> nwid "SSID" wpakey "PASSPHRASE"
<SiFuh> Yeah, they want to do a complete re-write so they did and renamed it. Why couldn't they just re-write ifconfig?
<remiliascarlet> My ThinkPad X200 is a dualboot OpenBSD + CRUX setup, although they're both installed to their own dedicated SSD's, so I need to keep the laptop in the UltraBay to be able to boot into both.
<SiFuh> If you put nwid <SSID> wpakey <0x00000000000000000000> it connects to only that Wi-Fi SSID
<SiFuh> If you want to connect to multiple Wi-Fi as you go from place to place you change nwid to join and add all you different Wi-Fi SSID's underneath join <SSID> wpakey <0x00000000000000000000>
<SiFuh> I like the simplicity of it
<remiliascarlet> Also, OpenBSD has no COC, CRUX has no COC, and Gentoo's COC is based on merit rather than identity politics like 99% of the other FOSS projects are.
<SiFuh> What's a COC?
<remiliascarlet> Code of Conduct, a very religious leftist document.
<remiliascarlet> Or to say it in a more clear way: it's a form of powertripping in a way that makes idiots want to accept it.
<remiliascarlet> Just compare: Gentoo's COC: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct vs every other project's COC (seriously, they all simply copy/paste it): https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/1/code_of_conduct/
<SiFuh> I thought it was Cohorts of C*nts
<remiliascarlet> More like Church of Cucks.
<SiFuh> But Void has many C*nts ;-)
<remiliascarlet> I know.
<remiliascarlet> You can even get banned for explaining why you call yourself an insult as a joke.
<remiliascarlet> Upon them asking you, just to add.
<remiliascarlet> Just imagine: "why did you call yourself an idiot?" "just as a joke, why?" *kick and ban*
<SiFuh> Heh, everyone has heard the story before but some guy was complaining his keyboard wasn't working after he cleaned it. I knew straight away it was a hardware issue. He tested another keyboard and that keyboard worked fine. Next thing you know the channel wankers emerged with some guy complaining that I am an amateur and don't know what I am talking about. So he started trying to help the guy I already helped.
<SiFuh> I just called them a channel full of wankers and left. Never been back.
<remiliascarlet> I don't think they have enough testosterone to be able to wank.
<SiFuh> Hehe
<disapper3nce> remiliascarlet: I am planning on installing CRUX on my thinkpad x200
<disapper3nce> how is the compiling time
<SiFuh> disapper3nce: are you in a hurry?
<disapper3nce> no
<SiFuh> It'll take a while
<remiliascarlet> disapper3nce: It depends on what you want to compile.
<disapper3nce> I ran crux on my x230 and the kernel alone take around 30 minutes
<remiliascarlet> Suckless software, of course, is really fast. Linux Kernel is OK, LLVM and GCC-Fortran take each forever to compile.
<SiFuh> I'd download the latest updated iso from jaeger. Then install all the binary packages needed. The longest will be the kernel compilation.
<remiliascarlet> But the vast majority of the software you will want to use either exist as pre-compiled binaries, or aren't as big.
<SiFuh> Why does GCC-Fortran still exist?
<remiliascarlet> I once had to compile it as a dependency for some software, forgot which one.
<disapper3nce> remiliascarlet: i don't think x200 supports efi. Does it?
<remiliascarlet> Correct, it's still a BIOS computer, fortunately.
<remiliascarlet> Not so fortunate if you happen to be a FreeBSD user though.
<disapper3nce> < disapper3nce> remiliascarlet: i don't think x200 supports efi. Does it?
<remiliascarlet> Massive drama broke out in the FreeBSD community that's still continuing on since the release of FreeBSD 14.0-RELEASE.
<disapper3nce> glitched lol, some how xterm returned the previous message
<disapper3nce> remiliascarlet: do you use x200 as your main computer? how is the battery life time
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<remiliascarlet> It's not my main computer, but it's the laptop I use the most while at home, and the only laptop I bring with me on the go.
<remiliascarlet> Battery life doesn't really matter IMO, because it's easily replaceable, and lots of aftermarket batteries are readily available.
<disapper3nce> my x200 actually shipped with no battery, and I am planning on getting one
<remiliascarlet> Just to give you a little perspective, I compiled GIMP when I went back home from work, so I couldn't put it to sleep mode. And it successfully compiled from leaving the office building all the way to a train transfer near Akihabara, and battery still had more than a half left.
<disapper3nce> that sounds pretty decent. Planning on getting one
<remiliascarlet> And I had to transfer twice by the time I made by final transfer where compilation completed.
<remiliascarlet> s/made by/made my
<disapper3nce> lol
<disapper3nce> I am also curious what proxy daemon that people use on openbsd
<remiliascarlet> Proxy daemon?
<disapper3nce> I need something that can bypass the gfw
<disapper3nce> remiliascarlet: something like wireguard
<remiliascarlet> I think it's just Wireguard, it's not even OpenBSD specific.
<remiliascarlet> I guess you're in China?
<disapper3nce> wireguard couldn't bypass the gfw sadly, and yes I am currently in China
<disapper3nce> I am using clash-for-linux on CRUX, but it doesn't have any alternatives on openbsd
<remiliascarlet> More Asia bro's in the house!
<remiliascarlet> But I fortunately never had to deal with the great firewall, so no idea.
<remiliascarlet> I like it how China came up with a great firewall years before Trump came up with a great steelwall. Well, Bill Clinton came up with it, then both Bush and Obama promised it as well, but mainstream media wants you to ignore this fact.
<disapper3nce> china recently regulated most opensource proxy applications that can bypass the gfw on github
<remiliascarlet> Which is another reason why I believe centralizing the entirety of FOSS on Github is a bad idea.
<disapper3nce> the fun part is that the opensource proxy applications are still avaliable in most chinese github mirrors
<remiliascarlet> s/Github/Microsoft Github
<remiliascarlet> Let's just call it what it is.
<disapper3nce> the goverment regulated github, but not their own github mirros
<disapper3nce> and also archive.org
<remiliascarlet> What would happen if you'd publish open source proxy programs on WeChat and Baidu?
<disapper3nce> disappear proabably
<disapper3nce> or large amount of fine
<disapper3nce> bypassing gfw is worth than doing drugs in china
<remiliascarlet> If you're in Shengzen, I think you can just travel into Hong Kong, download and install what you need, and then go back to the mainland.
<disapper3nce> s/worth/worse
<disapper3nce> remiliascarlet: thats very inconvenient to be honest. Bypassing gfw is actually easy among chinese individuals
<remiliascarlet> Sometimes you will have to get to the inconvenience to reach your goal.
<disapper3nce> thats the truth sadly Most individuals in china got brainwashed by the propagandas on chinese social media apps
<remiliascarlet> Unless you're not a resident of China and just a tourist, in that case you can as well just wait until you're going back, because apparently the Chinese government just cancels your visa to trap you in.
<remiliascarlet> If you are a resident, then I think you should give the Hong Kong route a try.
<disapper3nce> I can actually bypassing the gfw right now. This is a remote vulture vps running irssi with mosh
<disapper3nce> I can bypass the gfw on linux but not on openbsd
<remiliascarlet> Use that VPS then.
<disapper3nce> this is also a interesting project, might give it a spin later
<remiliascarlet> ssh -D 7777 (your VPS's IP), then install proxychains-ng (or proxychains4 or proxychains, depending on how it's called), configure it accordingly, and prefix your desired commands with "proxychains -q".
<remiliascarlet> Hostname = 127.0.0.1
<remiliascarlet> Port: 7777
<remiliascarlet> No username and password required.
<disapper3nce> gfw also block ssh connections sadly.
<remiliascarlet> Then how did you get onto that VPS?
<disapper3nce> it blocks all suspicious connections including things like github
<SiFuh> Any suggestions for a curtain/drape colour to match? I was thinking to go something closer towards purple. https://i.snipboard.io/a3j6hG.jpg
<remiliascarlet> SiFuh: It looks adorable as it is.
<SiFuh> I am turning this house into a home instead of a prison cell.
<disapper3nce> remiliascarlet: I have a friend that gived me his nord supscription a long time ago, then I migrated to clash.
<disapper3nce> that friend went to japan sadly
<SiFuh> At the moment the curtains are blue. But they are not matching or staying.
<remiliascarlet> So need a VPN to access the internet, but can't SSH into a VPS normally, so need a VPN to access the VPS you're accessing right now? It's confusing.
<disapper3nce> lmao, I exported the port of proxy in terminal and firefox, so I basically start the proxy daemon everytime I reboot
<disapper3nce> the reason for a vps is just to access IRC among all devices, and host a website in the mean time
<remiliascarlet> disapper3nce: "lmao," zedong
<remiliascarlet> (-20 social credit score)
<disapper3nce> execution date tomorrow morning
<remiliascarlet> I think the social credit score in the west is even worse than in China.
<remiliascarlet> In China, at leas you can still earn your way back up, whereas in the west, once you're cancelled, there's no way back.
<disapper3nce> its basically 1984 in china. You have cameras every where
<remiliascarlet> Cameras are everywhere world wide, but I heard that it's taken to the extreme in China.
<remiliascarlet> I have to give them that, China is pretty talented at inventing fancy names.
<remiliascarlet> Great Firewall, Golden Shield Project...
<disapper3nce> the irony is that these classified projects are avaliable to the public and it didn't get regulated even with baidu
<remiliascarlet> 「金盾工程」 Reading this in Japanese makes it seem like the golden shield is still being manufactured.
<cruxbot> [core.git/3.7]: python3-setuptools: update to 69.0.2
<cruxbot> [opt.git/3.7]: lvm2: update to 2.03.23
<farkuhar> SiFuh: gcc-fortran is needed by openblas, lapack, R, and python3-numpy (among others).
<farkuhar> Here's what I find amazing: it took until 2023 for the Fortran standard to include ternary expressions. See https://fortran.bcs.org/2022/AGM22_Reid.pdf page 5.
<cruxbot> [core.git/3.7]: pkgconf: update to 2.1.0
<SiFuh> I have lapack, python3-nump (among others) and not fortran on OpenBSD
<SiFuh> lapack is built against libgfortran but gfortran isn't installed
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: mpv: 0.36.0 -> 0.37.0
<farkuhar> SiFuh: on OpenBSD are you installing the binary packages, or building from source?
<SiFuh> I was reading the source
<SiFuh> farkuhar: I will try to compile it for fun and see what it needs to build and what it installs to run it.
<SiFuh> Would be a nice option to have to be able to compile a program and all it's dependencies but not install dependencies required for building the port only.
<SiFuh> to have, to be*
<farkuhar> Be careful what you wish for. Fun's comment in FS#1576 describes a similar trajectory in the evolution of Arch PKGBUILD files, starting from when the distinction between runtime dependencies and buildtime dependencies was introduced. Make things "just a bit" more complex, and they're no longer simple (CRUX Mantra).
<SiFuh> I wish that we can have ports used for make and not for runtime to not be installed. ;-)
<farkuhar> Why would you not want them installed? If they're present when the dependents need to be updated, then the update process is much smoother. Otherwise you'd continually be fetching the buildtime dependencies every time one of their dependents needs an update, and then throwing away all that effort.
<SiFuh> They will be. As an already built port but not installer.
<SiFuh> installed*
<SiFuh> I remember when Per had it setup so that all the useless junk was removed that you didn't need on a running system. Why should I have a port that is installed on a running system which is only needed for compilation? Even moreso, people that use an external drive for their ports/packages/distfiles that they switch between different machines to share the same installation.
<SiFuh> If I compile lapack which compiles gcc-fortran on a faster system and gcc-fortran doesn't need to exist after compilation, why would I install it on a machine that I don't compile on?
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: tenacity: fix rpath
<farkuhar> Funny we should be talking about removing the objects needed at buildtime but not at runtime. To successfully run tenacity, prior to the rpath fix, you would have had to keep the pkgmk work directory.
<SiFuh> Well, there are ports that download and build other ports within them as a makedep but never installing them
<farkuhar> So what happens on OpenBSD when you build lapack from source? Does gcc-fortran get installed too?
<remiliascarlet> Scientific studies have concluded that gcc-fortran is bloat.
<SiFuh> Nope, it gets built, shoved in a build environment, lapack is compiled and installed. The fortran built package gets put in packages/amd64 and the build environment gets obliterated.
<farkuhar> To make use of the "Optional" Pkgfile field, https://lists.crux.nu/pipermail/crux-devel/2008-May/003375.html , additional code is only needed in prt-get. But if you want to separate buildtime dependencies from runtime dependencies by using a container for the former, that might require additional code in pkgmk too.
<SiFuh> Probably need a new variable like makedeps=(gcc-fortran) and then a fake root of sorts
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<farkuhar> Fun wrote in FS#1576 "I see that CRUX is on the same path: it adds complexity, but removes none." We can easily prove him wrong (to use SiFuh's analogy) by issuing a recall on every muffler (purging pkgutils of the remaining md5sum code), not just the cars that belong to Toyota employees (first-party ports trees only have .signature).
<SiFuh> My muffler is fine :-P
<SiFuh> I fixed my wifes car's wiper and water jets last week and pumped up the tyres with my truck's aircompressor because the left side was at 19 PSI and the right side was at 20 and 21 PSI, and she has been driving it everyday and never even noticed.
<farkuhar> But perhaps there's a way to accomplish SiFuh's desired separation of dependencies, without changing pkgmk. prt-get could set up the customized build environment, populate it with the needed dependencies, and then spawn a pkgmk process inside the fake root. There would be no need for pkgmk to know about the buildtime/runtime distinction. So makedeps wouldn't need to be a shell variable, just a comment (as we already do with Optional).
<ukky> I need .md5sum support as I have 17 patched core/opt/xorg ports
<SiFuh> No one needs .md5sum support ;-)
<SiFuh> ukky: xorg-xdm doesn't suffice it for me. So I copied it to xorg-xdm-yenjie and modified it to my liking.
<SiFuh> Although xorg-xdm isn't required by anything that I am aware of, if it were I would edit /etc/prt-get.aliases to make sure xorg-xdm-yenjie is recognized as the xorg-xdm replacement
<ukky> SiFuh: I do not duplicate ports, I created functionality to patch actual ports on the fly, using 'git stash', using local proxy git repos.
<ukky> 'ports -u' updates ports in intermediate git repos, and as second step actual git repos get updated and then 'git stash' applies patches
<SiFuh> Cool, still not sure about the .md5sum though
<ukky> .md5sum is used instead of .signature, as ports are modified, thus .signature cannot be used
<SiFuh> Oh I see
<SiFuh> So rather than using your .signature and interfering with the ports .signature, you bypass it by using your own .md5sum.
<ukky> Exactly. That's because Pkgfile has been modified.
<SiFuh> farkuhar: What about actually installing the actual build time dep into the system and then after building the port it would then remove that dep. You could have an option in the Pkgfile. You'd have to make sure that if that port modifes the system like passwd/group that it would return the files back to the original way it was before the build dep was installed.
<SiFuh> CRUX should stay simple but the maintainers don't do simple work
<SiFuh> Hmm that wouldn't work so well.
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<nekobit> SiFuh: i never understood the overall blind hatred of systemd and systemd-less distros
<nekobit> i think systemd does what it does for people who need it
<nekobit> i think half the people who use distros like artix dont have a real reason for not wanting it
<SiFuh> nekobit: Depends on how you look at it. It is kind of like Windows Registery. It sticks its nose into everything and the error messages are meaningless garble.
<SiFuh> Your last sentence, definitely I agree with.
<nekobit> i mean i think some of its decisions pull me off, especially its bugs and needy "safe" shutdowns.... some people LIKE that, more power to them :)
<nekobit> and windows registry, actually does have some cool things imo, but overall its pretty ugly... for windows though, it works
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<nekobit> the idea of an OS global config system is definitely windowzy, but still neat in their regards
<SiFuh> systemd isn't that though.
<nekobit> i got offtopic but yes
<SiFuh> Did you read the reddit I posted the other day about arch linux and systemd?
<nekobit> havent
<nekobit> i just joined today
<nekobit> i just installed crux a week ago
<SiFuh> He has some reasonable points but still..
<nekobit> > Systemd handles most of those tasks with builtin fast C code, or via the right libraries. It won't call many external programs to perform its tasks.
<nekobit> Oh
<SiFuh> There are distros that have never adopted systemd and yet they are not subject to the issues he brings up about the modern age. A simple init is all it should be. The concept of systemd seems reasonable but when it turns into a behemoth with it's tenticals in amongst everything, including stuff that should have nothing to do with an init system that is when the people scream "This ain't KISS!" and shit hits
<SiFuh> the fan.
<ukky> Most items in the Reddit article above are irrelevant when Runit is used instead of SysVinit
<nekobit> runit fucking sucks
<nekobit> i used it on void years ago before going back to debian
<ukky> please tell me why
<SiFuh> I like runit but I there are definitely things I hate about it. That's why I won't use it.
<nekobit> it kept restarting stuff all the time when i didnt want it to and i kept having obvious dependency issues. i may have been using it wrong too but i just had all sorts of issues i remember when using it on a server, it just didnt work out for me
<ukky> After switching to runit, I can no longer use sysvinit
<SiFuh> That is one of the things I disliked. Constantly launching when a service was failing because of 'user error' or 'default configuration error'
<nekobit> yeah it was naggy
<SiFuh> Runit is reliable and very fast though
<nekobit> it is very fast but i always had dependency issues iirc
<nekobit> i cant remember if it had dependency tools but i never saw anything online or in man pages
<ukky> don't blame runit for restarting daemon, it is by design
<nekobit> if i dont like the design im going to blame it
<nekobit> openrc was the best init system ive ever used honestly
<ukky> in sysvinit, if sshd exits/terminates, it will never restart
<nekobit> course
<SiFuh> ukky: It should have a failsafe though. Why launch something over and over and over again that is clearly never going to work. Isn't that the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
<nekobit> but stuff exits and breaks for a reason sometimes
<nekobit> filesystem full, application bug, etc. when stuff breaks like that, it probably isnt going to start again
<nekobit> if it does break, maybe it should be clear in a log so i can see if its a bug too
<ukky> if user cannot configure runit, that is not a runit's fault
<SiFuh> nekobit: systemd is far from clear in any logs :-P
<nekobit> i hated systemd logging a lot
<nekobit> but i did like that it just kind of siphoned stdout for me when some things didnt like syslog and such
<SiFuh> ukky: if a user can't configure a daemon correctly and runit is constantly lauching it then technically it is both runit and the users fault.
<ukky> SiFuh: disagree
<ukky> user is to blame. Otherwise, use systemd
<nekobit> this kind of stuff is why i just use OpenBSD, i dont really give a damn (after the 800th time) about init system wars i just want a system to work
<nekobit> or netbsd sometimes
<SiFuh> ukky: It needs a failsafe eg. This program launched 5 times and instantly it died. Cancel launching and send an error to log.
<nekobit> my system would 100% CPU due to this ^^
<SiFuh> nekobit: Quite a few of us use OpenBSD these days.
<ukky> SiFuh: runit supports that, but default runit startup script should be modified
<nekobit> Its wonderful, really. I love Linux where it shines but damn do the *BSDs have it nice
<nekobit> well, im a little critical of freebsd in some ways, but regardless, still good
<SiFuh> nekobit: Yeah that happened to me on void. Chewed through the CPU. Couldn't figure out why it was running so slowly. Then I noticed runit was relaunching a failed daemon that was not because of me <- ( ukky ) but a void linux update that broke the actual daemon.
<nekobit> i did not like void at all. i was looking for bsd like distros that WERENT rolling, i hate to say it but void is dead, and i know a void dev is writing something else from it
<nekobit> xbps was cool though
<nekobit> well not dead, but dying per se
<nekobit> also i never cared about musl
<nekobit> i think alpine kind of won around that territory of minimalist libcs (which are great for embedded systems)
<ukky> SiFuh: It was not a runit's fault though, void's update was at fault
<nekobit> lolwut
<SiFuh> ukky: Talking in circles now.
<nekobit> runit was at fault because of a faulty package from void, runit shouldve handled it appropriately or just shut up, maybe threw a syslog in, but it just keeps restarting stuff
<SiFuh> Runit is excellent and trustworthy but it needs to be setup so it can recognize failure
<ukky> SiFuh: exactly.
<nekobit> and again, runit was fast but iirc, no dependency handling, horrible for a server
<SiFuh> As I said above. I like runit.
<nekobit> i usually handled that by checking if a process was up
<nekobit> but it was a bit of a hack
<nekobit> and runit would still spike the cpu
<SiFuh> When I installed artix for the wife. I chose runit
<SiFuh> nekobit: Alpine works great in OpenBSD VMs :-)
<nekobit> i want to contribute some stuff to openbsd vms
<SiFuh> Send it to their mailing list and wait for someone to pick it up or contact you
<nekobit> vmm
<nekobit> yeah i know
<nekobit> i think i submitted some ports before
<nekobit> never got picked up though
<nekobit> but yeah i remember creating openbsd vms and ssh'ing or remoting xorg through it
<nekobit> with alpine
<SiFuh> I wrote some drivers for OpenBSD and I uploaded them to the mailing list back in 2001 or 2002 sometime. It took a few distros before someone took it and put into the kernel.
<nekobit> i guess they all scrub through it as time goes
<nekobit> sadly my email server died as well as the domain
<SiFuh> FreeBSD and Linux snatched it up pretty quickly though .
<nekobit> so if i got a response its gone, those packages sucked
<nekobit> 'course
<nekobit> as insaid im just not big about freebsd anymore
<nekobit> it feels like a poor-mans linux to me
<nekobit> OS concept is always cool and the ports system is nice, but openbsd and netbsd have nice goals that dont feel like a partial linux distri
<SiFuh> I found the layout horrible /etc and /usr/etc and /usr/local/etc... That's just lazy
<nekobit> i sort of liked it, but its one of those things that aesthetically looks good and nothing else
<nekobit> never really had value
<nekobit> global etc for stuff works fine too, no real collision issues
<nekobit> freebsd crashes a lot though
<nekobit> all things crash but freebsd is special about it
<nekobit> ive had systems lock up
<SiFuh> I like the BSD approach of putting everything system default install official under /, optional under /usr and all installed ports under /usr/local. But I like how OpenBSD trims the configuration files and they are all under /etc
<nekobit> it is really focused on multithreading every little thing and as a result things just break
<SiFuh> nekobit: I used FreeBSD as a crypto miner for a few minutes. After four 101 Celsius excessive CPU temperatures causing the machine to shutdown. I switched the miner to Linux
<nekobit> its just really broken man
<nekobit> all it kind of does now is focus on performance and as a result it just kind of rots as a linux competitor
<nekobit> and well, we know whos winning
<SiFuh> I think FreeBSD would be awesome if they had as much love for perfection as OpenBSD guys do for their beloved OpenBSD
<nekobit> yeah, really
<nekobit> i always thought netbsd was what i wanted as a fast but secure and stable OS
<nekobit> and im really excited for netbsd 10
<nekobit> well it has bugs but i think its goals are more rigid and have more 'love' in them
<SiFuh> I never liked NetBSD. I rarely got it working on my hardware even though it was suppose to be so portable.
<nekobit> oh yeah it struggles at what it aims for sadly enough
<nekobit> and i did have some hardware issues
<nekobit> but netbsd 10 is supposed to fix a lot of stuff and its been cooking for a good while now
<SiFuh> I have NetBSD on a USB here. I never got around to testing it
<SiFuh> Latest, can't remember the version
<nekobit> 9 maybe
<SiFuh> Downloaded a few days back
<nekobit> netbsd has the most archs, openbsd has the most stable archs
<SiFuh> Yeah, will be 9. I don't download the RC's
<nekobit> wait until 10 honestly
<nekobit> if you have an amdgpu or something especially
<SiFuh> I want a BSD crypto miner that works
<SiFuh> Yep AMD
<nekobit> it has significant smp improvements
<nekobit> and i mean monumental improvements
<nekobit> 70 second build times to 30 from smp
<SiFuh> We will see
<nekobit> always a chance to be a buggy mess ofc
<zzr> openbsd has awesome shell ksh. mirbsd mksh :-)
<nekobit> openbsd has the most stable drivers for me
<nekobit> freebsds wifi situation is laughable
<nekobit> iwlwifi wouldnt even work
<SiFuh> I remember when I wanted OpenBSD but you had to pay for it. I couldn't pay of course and I emailed them to explain the situation. The guy that answered my emails says 'I like music. If you get me a couple of different genre music CDs from Thailand (I was living there at the time), I will send you the OpenBSD CDs'. So I did. And he sent me OpenBSD. I have been using OpenBSD ever since. That would be back in
<SiFuh> early 2002
<nekobit> lol
<nekobit> amazing
<zzr> lol
<SiFuh> I sent him Da Jim (Thai Rapper), Buchompoo Ford and something else.
<SiFuh> Last link ain't the offical video..
<SiFuh> If today he'd have asked me, I would have sent him Asanee Wasan, Thaitanium and Mikro.
<SiFuh> Probably Da Jim as well.
<nekobit> how much was the openbsd disk?
<SiFuh> Not sure. It was 2003 by the way OpenBSD 3.3
<SiFuh> It's funny how you buy the CD and the stickers were used more than the distro.
<SiFuh> 3.3 was for 6 months and the stickers I still have 20 years later ;-)
<farkuhar> What you learned in those 6 months is still being used 20 years later, though.
<SiFuh> farkuhar: Most of it completely different now, but there are still some things, so yes
<SiFuh> I'd like to see pledge and unveil introduced into the Linux world
<SiFuh> When a program tries to do something it shouldn't, it gets killed
<nekobit> I love that windows has 5 partitions on my disk
<nekobit> trying to quadruple boot windows, linux (CRUX), openbsd, and 32gb just for playing with netbsd or whatever i feel like putting there really
<SiFuh> And they are all full :-P
<nekobit> i love that autoalloc accounts for disk space too
<nekobit> on openbsd
<nekobit> usually it creates lot of paritions
<nekobit> but i dont have the space in my 200gb sector of openbsd
<SiFuh> I like the slices and partitions in OpenBSD. I can nuke one partition without affecting the rest of the system
<SiFuh> I do the same with Linux still.
<nekobit> linux's approach is clean but very carefree
<nekobit> very easy to mistype sdb instead of sdc
<SiFuh> Last week I had that issue. I typed sdd instead of sdf
<SiFuh> Good thing sdd and sde was already unplugged
<nekobit> i use dd a lot sometimes
<nekobit> sdc where the usb or hard drive usually goes
<nekobit> sdb is .. my everything
<nekobit> just one typo and i fuck it all up
<SiFuh> I always run dd as a normal user and always check dmesg to make sure.
<SiFuh> The reason I run it as a normal user is because it will scream at me that I need root access
<SiFuh> This gives me extra time to verify as a "Wake the fsck up! You 'bout to do some serious shit here"
<nekobit> nice
<ukky> nekobit: using PARTLABEL, PARTUUID, LABEL, and UUID might help
<nekobit> but yeah disklabel is weird and thats its one benefit
<SiFuh> I think disklabel is fantastic
<SiFuh> And the sd*i sd*j is awesome when it comes to guessing where the msdos/ntfs partion is
<nekobit> i honestly still dont know how it works, at least how it decides whats labeled where
<nekobit> specifically with msdos stuff, i always go for i
<SiFuh> a is /, b is swap, c is the entire disk. i and j are usually used for Windows filesystems
<nekobit> yeah i know c
<nekobit> how does a and b work for ext2 and stuff though?
<SiFuh> If you use i or j as a partition in OpenBSD though, the Windows filesystems will be designated letters at the end of you OpenBSD partitioning scheme
<SiFuh> It doesn't. If I remember correctly ext2 also goes under i and j
<nekobit> well thats why i think its weird
<nekobit> its nice for not fucking things up since its so unique in a way
<nekobit> but what does it do after we run out of letters?
<nekobit> (not that thats a good idea to have so many partitions, but hey)
<SiFuh> There are 4 slices
<SiFuh> Inside a slice you put a partition
<nekobit> GPT?
<SiFuh> Haven't looked into that, but I have noticed on a GPT disk if I type reinit in fdisk it still shoves OpenBSD at slice 3 (Partition 4).
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<SiFuh> nekobit: 16 is maximum
<SiFuh> Seems I am using slice and partition in the wrong way also
<SiFuh> Do a search for the number 16 and see that paragraph
<SiFuh> nekobit: Also OpenBSD's wording is very specific. Not like my wording.
<SiFuh> a: ---> The boot disk’s <--- a partition is your root partition.
<zzr> SiFuh: xmrig miner, for openbsd?
<SiFuh> Nope, won't work or compile. OpenBSD handles the CPU and cores a bit differently
<zzr> cmake . -DWITH_ASM=OFF -DWITH_HWLOC=OFF -DWITH_HTTP=OFF
<zzr> get the link with the patch
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<SiFuh> I have tried with both -dwith_asm=Off -dwith_hwloc=Off
<SiFuh> Link with a patch?
<Guest30> i sent it with notice
<Guest30> have you seen the notice ?
<SiFuh> Got it, okay, let me try.
<SiFuh> Cheers if it doesn't work. Cheers x 2 if it does
<Guest30> came back from Oslo... was so Cold~!!!
<SiFuh> One chunk failed in the patch by the way
<SiFuh> Same error Platform_unix.cpp:89:5: error: unknown type name 'cpu_set_t
<Guest30> pity!
<SiFuh> I have an idea
<Guest30> ?
<SiFuh> This URL is from the 27th of December 2019
<Guest30> hehe get that version of xmrig
<Guest30> lol
<SiFuh> So if I try with version 5.4.0 from Dec 21, 2019 it may compile
<SiFuh> Hehe, it compiled and.... segmentation fault
<SiFuh> ad
<Guest30> it is what it is
<Guest30> a few months ago i saw the self destructing signal private messages of cz on twitter from the lawsuit against him.
<Guest30> signal private messenger :-)
<SiFuh> I am not going to install OpenBSD 6.6 just to use a miner ;-)
<nekobit> SiFuh: i would imagine those are linux specific to squeeze out linux specific performance features
<nekobit> peep my ident, no need to mine bitcoin, you can just take it all for free
<Guest30> SiFuh: which miner ?
<SiFuh> I installed Ubunutu on a USB disk and fscked around for over a week to get it to work with opencl. Tried that for mining and holy shit that PC was running super hot, 100 Celsius. I returned to the default which is CPU and it runs at 72 Celsius
<SiFuh> Guest30: xmrig with randomX for Monero
<Guest30> let me search
<SiFuh> I will use CRUX and NOT use OpenCL
<SiFuh> Just I am busy with painting the house and renovating shit to be bothered with it.
<SiFuh> And December is coming up so that means, I will be going jungle and offroad for awhile as well.
<nekobit> i really dont see the appeal of crypto though
<nekobit> arent you mining at a loss accounting power bills?
<SiFuh> Nope, no loss here
<Guest30> epyc milan is nice for xmrig
<SiFuh> Also I ain't mining for profit or whatever
<nekobit> for weed money?
<nekobit> sounds like that's always the case
<Guest30> xmr he is validator now
<SiFuh> I just don't want to pay for it. I am mining it for a few dollars so I can screw around with crypto wallets and hardware crypto wallets
<Guest30> no more coins to mine, its a philosophy
<SiFuh> I have about $5 AUD in over 3 weeks. Shows how much it sucks
<Guest30> try dynex
<SiFuh> Once I have hit 5 bucks, I will mess around with the hardware wallet for experimental purposes.
<Guest30> i think went 1 usd
<SiFuh> These machines are always running and so the power consumption is practically nothing when mining from CPU
<SiFuh> I am only interested in Monero at this particular moment.
<SiFuh> I will note dynex though
<SiFuh> Oh wow
<SiFuh> Guest30: Okay, I will check that for suer
<SiFuh> sure*
<nekobit> i mean i still dont fully get it from a spending perspective
<Guest30> you mine dynex you exchange to monero you do your staff
<nekobit> i use crypto so the evil government cant see my purchase of... bread
<SiFuh> nekobit: But almost all crypto you can see what you are doing
<Guest30> crypto is the reason that i installed crux linux be fore i used to run alpine
<nekobit> which is cool and all, but still
<SiFuh> Monero is probably the only private one
<SiFuh> Guest30: reminds me, this afternoon, I will open a bank account for fiat money.
<Guest30> in this life we trust monero and twofish encryption lol
<Guest30> revolut, seba, xapo
<SiFuh> Hahaha onefish twofish redfish bluefish
<Guest30> aaa dont forget paypal now :)
<Guest30> hahaha ....blowfish
<SiFuh> :-P
<Guest30> if they could break twofish encryption half of darknet will be in prison by now :)
<SiFuh> I have been living from cash and assets since forever, I am a bit concerned about having a bank account here.
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<SiFuh> I think darknet has enough soldiers to take down the police and governments
<Guest30> have of them is the police :)
<Guest30> have=half
<SiFuh> Hahaha
<SiFuh> Yeah looking at kiddies
<Guest30> hahaha
<Guest30> exactly
<SiFuh> I live by the system where it is "Do what you want, don't ruin your self given morals, stay respectable and DO NOT deny free will"
<SiFuh> I don't find any system on the planet that is this way. Closest is anarchy
<SiFuh> Went to a night club a couple of weeks ago. I actually don't go to night clubs. Some huge weight lifting Chinese Stalone was telling me to stand in a line. Heh! When my friend heard that he swung around and was like "Oh shit"
<SiFuh> I didn't stand in line. He tried a few more times and I just ignored him. Then when I was given entry. I walked back to him, shook his hand and walked into the club.
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<Guest30> correct
<Guest30> what the say trouble finds trouble.
<SiFuh> Live by the sword, die by the sword.
<SiFuh> That was a cool computer game in the day
<SiFuh> Anyone ever notice that CRUX is a magnet for OpenBSD users?
<ukky> SiFuh: me
<SiFuh> I think the great Han from OpenBSD was the first to go from OpenBSD to CRUX
<SiFuh> I was the reverse. I went from CRUX to OpenBSD so I don't count
<SiFuh> ukky: It makes me think that Per maybe got it pretty much right. His goal was to make it as close to BSD as posible
<ukky> SiFuh: I cannot comment on that, as I switched to Linux circa 2013
<ukky> Being simple might not be *BSD-only thing
<SiFuh> I switched from BSD I think it was 2 floppies to Caldera. Then went to Mandrake, SuSE and messed around with a few other distros. Found CRUX then my brother told me they have BSDs with GUI and I went to FreeBSD, then to OpenBSD
<ukky> Lucky you
<Guest30> openbsd is cool easy to install and understand but it is slow
<ukky> I feel ashamed that I was using DOS/Windows for so long
<SiFuh> Not really. If I had known BSD had GUI so long ago, I'd have switched to it sooner
<SiFuh> ukky: I had PC DOS in 1988 ;-)
<SiFuh> I remember we got locked out of the menu system. Took me a few days to figure out the password someone entered and forgot about. Could have been me. It was the family name.
<ukky> I was using MSDOS starting circa 1990-91
<SiFuh> I remember the school computers having MSDOS. My friend was always looking at GIF porn and Crazy Cars III was the rage
<SiFuh> This would be around 1995
<ukky> GIFs yes, games no. And a lot of disassembling
<SiFuh> The school had Apple computers before that
<SiFuh> And I remember when they came into the school. We had to spend about 45 minutes on them. We were taught the stupidest shit ever that even to this very day, I have never needed to do since.
<SiFuh> I bet no one here has had to put words into a speech bubble, for a cartoon already made. Oh wait... MEMES? Hehe, and has anyone here had to generate a WORD SEARCH puzzle?
<SiFuh> In fact, it was like 40 minutes to load a double sided floppy, then move a frog accross a road and not get killed by a car and not even 5 minutes into the game we are told it is lunch break.
<SiFuh> Turtles existed before the mouse. Haha
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<SiFuh> Master Splinter will not be happy ;-)
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<Guest30> SiFuh: xmrig --> * OPENCL disabled (failed to load OpenCL runtime) | Any ideas?
<SiFuh> Only 3 distros actually have opencl support Red Hat enterprise, SuSE enterprise and Ubuntu
<Guest30> hmm
<Guest30> what they do different than crux ?
<SiFuh> OpenCL on CRUX doesn't exist
<SiFuh> xmrig is designed for CPU's by the way
<SiFuh> When I finally got it working on an OLD Ubuntu install it just caused my machine to overheat
<Guest30> i see
<farkuhar> if OpenBSD is using an overlay fs to have buildtime dependencies temporarily available, that would be an easy way to avoid cluttering the running system with gcc-fortran if all you want to use is lapack. Unfortunately in CRUX we can't assume that users have CONFIG_OVERLAY_FS enabled in their kernels.
<cruxbot> [opt.git/3.7]: libsoup: rebuilt with libxml2 2.12.0
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<nekobit> Guest30: openbsd isnt really THAT slow
<nekobit> i think its a little slower than a very hardened Linux kernel (which is how i built mine on CRUX, at least with malloc)
<Guest30> nekobit: i press the poweron on my laptop and in under 10 sec iam on wm.
<nekobit> well you can turn of library relocation, thats the biggest slowdown on boot
<nekobit> esp on netbooks and slow pcs, its noticable
<Guest30> nekobit: i have off the multimedia of the kernel though
<nekobit> ?
<nekobit> multiprocessing you mean?
<Guest30> i dont use grub or lilo or syslinux, iam with efi stub and efibootmgr, i enter the wm in under 10 seconds with autologin agetty
<nekobit> are you saying thats bad on openbsd in your eyes?
<nekobit> because i saw you saying earlier openbsd was slow
<Guest30> no not all, i just use laptop and when i turn it on i need it to be fast.... desktop being always on different story.
<ukky> system boot time doesn't matter when you reboot it once a month
<Guest30> ukky: yes, ok
<nekobit> nah i turn my system off all the time lol
<Guest30> lol
<SiFuh> lol = people waving their hands in the air to MC Hammer?
<ukky> it gets about 60 seconds on my system to get to grub menu anyway
<SiFuh> WTF? That ain't a system. That is a type writer
<Guest30> SiFuh: lol
<ukky> it has server MB
<Guest30> today i was reading an article of drew devault about plan9, which continues as 9front quite interesting.
<ukky> it takes 5 min for my Linux router to boot. It is also a server.
<Guest30> ukky: talking about routers iam very happy with my gl-inet mt3000
<ukky> Guest30: Using regular Dell server, with SELinux Hardened Gentoo, as my router
<Guest30> ok
<Guest30> i use openwrt
<Guest30> ukky: your server is good for xmrig :-)
<Guest30> ukky: give access to sifuh :-)
<ukky> liked openwrt about 15 years ago
<Guest30> why don you use on the server openbsd instead of hardenned gentoo ?
<ukky> Guest30: only SSH access :-)
<ukky> Guest30: I had nobody around to convince me *BSD is worth looking/trying. This channel is the first source of *BSD info for me.
<nekobit> SiFuh: i was roflcoptering before it was cool
<Guest30> man, no hardenned kernel will ever reach the security of openbsd
<SiFuh> I don't even know what roflcoptering means
<nekobit> just an internet meme
<SiFuh> Guest30: I agree
<Guest30> SiFuh: thank you :-)
<nekobit> i know this one irc channel where admins will warn you if you say stuff like lol, lmao, tbh, thx
<SiFuh> There is too much combing that the beard will never grow out of line.
<ukky> Guest30: Did you try to setup SELinux? And then, did you try to login into SELinux machine and try running any user-space program?
<SiFuh> nekobit: I think that is retard speech so I never use it
<SiFuh> Super retard is when you say el oh el
<SiFuh> And just dumb shit morons say lol
<SiFuh> As though it is a word and not an acronymn
<Guest30> ukky: so far, i only set up crux linux, openbsd and some machines i run alpine linux. I think is enough for me.
<Guest30> guys have you tried tgpt ?
<ukky> SiFuh: Sometimes I say 'oh' to indicate I was stupid enough and didn't get the subject
<SiFuh> Oh isn't an acronymn
<ukky> what's then?
<SiFuh> What is a what's?
<SiFuh> What is then? <-- This
<SiFuh> Because it still makes no sense
<SiFuh> Oh is not an acronym. It is just an interjection
<ukky> SiFuh: English is not my first language. Why do you want me to use a perfect English grammar in this channel?
<SiFuh> Just a noise a person makes (Or types) to let everyone know the either understand, were not aware, aware, shocked, suprised, pretty much everything that requires a noise.
<SiFuh> ukky: Not my first language is an excuse
<nekobit> SiFuh: that kind of elitism is pretty gay
<nekobit> lots of esl's say lol and idk and wtf and stuff a lot
<SiFuh> I speak many languages. I often get corrected. I have never once in my life say it is not my first language
<SiFuh> say/said*
<SiFuh> nekobit: But they retards that follow the "norm" cult
<nekobit> ????????
<nekobit> yeah,,, im not a normie, i use irc (and discord, but i dont admit it its too normal), and linux, and things normies dont ever think about,,, heh, you wouldnt get it, scrub
<SiFuh> I don't do LOL and whatever. WtF and WTH I can except because it has been around longer and most people understand it.
<nekobit> i get it i guess laugh out loud
<SiFuh> ROTFLMAO is not something most people know and why shoul di punish people by selfishly pushing it?
<nekobit> its a joke
<nekobit> you need to chill
<nekobit> people dont / shouldnt care about this kind of stuff
<nekobit> nobody actually says roflcopter or roflmao, unless theyre just purely joking
<SiFuh> Chill?
<SiFuh> In Malaysia?
<SiFuh> You are insane
<SiFuh> Chill is like warm water from a tap here
<nekobit> laugh out loud my man
<SiFuh> I do not identify as a man
<nekobit> OK
<SiFuh> My pronouns are "Ye who I serve" and "King of kings"
<SiFuh> You can borrow that if you need to
<SiFuh> I think it was around the year 1996 when the government forced me to go to an education camp for work, they asked me to write a resume. I said "I don't care, I just want to rule the world" The fucking government woman said "That is good" and she wrote that on my resume!
<nekobit> im surprised you drew that conclusion of me
<nekobit> just for saying lol
<nekobit> but anyway
<SiFuh> Heh
<nekobit> i think performance of openbsd is odd because its not that it doesnt matter its just low priority
<nekobit> kind of reminds me linus' old rant
<nekobit> er, saying i guess
<SiFuh> OpenBSD cares for perfomance
<nekobit> absolutely, its just not top notch nor is it really advertised
<SiFuh> Just it isn't priority
<nekobit> you can add good performance to any rust program and then have it shove json libraries down the throat
<SiFuh> Security 100% and even though it causes a super slow system. The system is clean
<SiFuh> If the OpenBSD team could re-write the Linux kernel I'd be a fan
<nekobit> linux kernel isnt too bad is it now?
<SiFuh> I reckon the kernel will end up like 9 bytes in size though
<SiFuh> It's disgusting
<SiFuh> And anyone who promotes it should be ashamed
<SiFuh> It is a filthy, absolutely filthy mess of dirty code.
<nekobit> it is big, and it has its filth indeed
<nekobit> but could you link to specifically nasty parts for me?
<SiFuh> I play with the kernel and read all their crap almost daily. I need to pray for forgiveness after reading it
<SiFuh> nekobit: The entire kernel is a fucking mess
<SiFuh> From beginning to the end
<SiFuh> Linux move so fast and so many people proded and poked around and modified that it became garbage
<Guest30> SiFuh: i agree
<SiFuh> Linus stepped in from what I remember asking for the code to be cleaned of profanity. Cool...
<SiFuh> What about just bad code?
<nekobit> but can you point to any really nasty cofe
<nekobit> code?
<nekobit> nasty code exists, its acknowledged for a big project
<SiFuh> nekobit: No, the kernel is constantly be re-written
<nekobit> well.. how can i truly believe you?
<nekobit> i mean yeah, parts were set in stone, its just big
<SiFuh> Read the kernel code?
<nekobit> Just tell me a part
<nekobit> a component
<SiFuh> Kernel version
<nekobit> Huh
<nekobit> lets say the latest
<SiFuh> LTS or not?
<nekobit> LTS is fine
<nekobit> i think my case is that no good code exists, even in something like openbsd
<nekobit> and code quality really shines in how the program actually performs and works itself
<nekobit> Source: I did KDE Development for a little bit
<nekobit> and scourged a lot of code
<nekobit> that's why kde is so buggy
<nekobit> because the code is really bad
<SiFuh> I dont have 6.6
<nekobit> if youre goal is to just git grep the word "hack"
<nekobit> then i understand
<SiFuh> My latest is USB drd
<nekobit> but linux developers and many who need to keep stuff going and have large priorities label things hacks because they plan to fix them or make then prettier
<SiFuh> Which has been a mess for a long time
<SiFuh> I think Linus' kernel was a kernel
<SiFuh> I think today is is a hack as you wsay
<SiFuh> say
<SiFuh> https://github.com/ValveSoftware/SteamOS/issues/1200 <-- this one I am looking at
<SiFuh> I haven't others newer
<SiFuh> I book marked it and hadn't read it or looked into it
<nekobit> sounds like a bug
<SiFuh> Looks it too
<nekobit> wait till you learn about computers man
<SiFuh> Linux is so much in a horry to push new shit it just fails
<SiFuh> New patches and stuff then boom, it is pushed to public. NO qualtiy
<nekobit> are you certain?
<nekobit> i mean, yeah linux cant constantly QC things
<SiFuh> No, I am just talking out of my arse
<nekobit> but new features definitely undergo massive checking
<SiFuh> They do not
<nekobit> it just sounds like youre talking out the arse then unless you show me an actual mailing list where nobody said "lgtm" and approves stuff
<nekobit> because they have a mailing list and that thing is really active
<SiFuh> hmm
<nekobit> im not gonna deny linux lacks quality and definitely triages things unlike openbsd and openbsd definitely champs quality, but i wouldnt call linux a hacked bugshit fucked up piece of shit like linus would sometimes say
<nekobit> things are settled for a reason, some kernel things get set in stone
<nekobit> you want quality piecemaking, check out the latest microkernel near you
<SiFuh> So Linus doesn't even know what is going on?
<nekobit> no im talking about how he used to act
<SiFuh> Linus hates what Linux became. He has said it many times
<nekobit> i can understand it too
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<nekobit> stuff like /sys and all that is weird
<nekobit> its very windowzy
<nekobit> but he also just use linux on an m2 macbook so *shrugs*
<SiFuh> Oh yeah /sys and /proc is just stupid shit
<nekobit> its kind of cool since its plan9 shit but its also hacked in and just DOESNT fit together with Linux
<Guest30> SiFuh: imagine u have a messed up kernel starting with a messed up systemd and the only thing they care is polkit lol
<SiFuh> And nekobit's defensive attitude to protect it because no mailing list was quoted. Yeah, I got it
<SiFuh> nekobit: ^
<nekobit> im not protecting linux in the slighest here, i just like when people have things to defend an argument
<nekobit> systemd makes a lot of "fuck you" decisions all the timr
<nekobit> and that makes it hard to defend regardless
<SiFuh> Go read the linux source code
<SiFuh> I give you a few months
<SiFuh> I started in 2.X days
<SiFuh> Just read it
<SiFuh> If you are a sane person you will come back and say probably something like this "Wholly Shit!"
<Guest30> everything is politics, nowdays microsoft loves linux.
<SiFuh> After they stole everything from the M/Vista days because they sucked
<SiFuh> Shits me that you can create an open software but a corporate software can steal your software and by law doesn't need to show the stolen source
<Guest30> exactly
<Guest30> you are so in to it.... first vista... then now we need azure... how we can run azure
<Guest30> nekobit: the things that i hate in linux is polkit and xdg-utils, i mount for ex usb with udevil, and i use run-mailcap as opener.
<SiFuh> I hate the kernel
<Guest30> hate = polkit + xdg-utils
<Guest30> SiFuh: now iam running kernel 6.1.62 and iam seriously thinking to go back to 5.15
<Guest30> SiFuh: why the hell they try to put rust in the kernel?
<ukky> Guest30: just remove polkit and xdg-utils from your system. It is ATK and D-Bus which are difficult to get rid of
<SiFuh> Guest30: Ask Linus his answer will probably be the same as mine "They are idiots"
<Guest30> ukky i told you what i do, udevil and run-mailcap
<ukky> Guest30: I assumed you have polkit and xdg-utils installed
<Guest30> ukky: nope, never.
<Guest30> udevil does exactly what udisks2 does without polkit only utilizing udev and glibc
<Guest30> SiFuh: i think big tech pushing them for rust, they cant find programmers
<SiFuh> I think so too
<SiFuh> Only a moron would use bloated code
<Guest30> at the end, who they know will be with openbsd....we shall see
<nekobit> SiFuh: you have to remember biases exist and people love to pry out things like Linux for the sake of it being popular for little reason, often nitpicky
<nekobit> the same is done by Linux users to Windows
<Guest30> people spend their nice money to apple and macos, when apple copy/pasted freebsd at that time freebsd had around 70 remote holes
<Guest30> i doubt if they ever bother to fix them.
<nekobit> The kernel is open source no?
<nekobit> at least for each version
<Guest30> nekobit: is open sources, has gpg keys too to verify it :-)
<SiFuh> nekobit: You are sugessting my bias towards BSD causes me to insult the kernel for linux?
<Guest30> SiFuh: i ask the other day chatgpt to make me a python script utilizing alphavantage api to get btc prices and analyze it. and it did.
<Guest30> SiFuh: same story with rust on the kernel, they will ask gpt to make something in rust.
<Guest30> this will be the future.
<SiFuh> ChatGPT?
<SiFuh> The AP thing?
<Guest30> yes
<Guest30> wanna try with no api keys
<Guest30> i will send you a link
<SiFuh> No interest in a fake AI that is just only an Artificial plagiariser
<SiFuh> It requires data. Data we own. Yet it can't think for itself. It takes out data and uses it to become somethingt it isn't
<Guest30> this is to collect / train the model
<SiFuh> Care not
<SiFuh> AI can never exist
<SiFuh> No divine spark and no thought of its own
<SiFuh> It's just a super enhanced copy and paste fake god
<Guest30> it can be helpfull on some occasions
<SiFuh> Yeah, like lying
<Guest30> it can save you time from extensive search over the web
<SiFuh> I doubt that
<SiFuh> Unless you are a retarded moron with no education then maybe yes
<Guest30> for example i asked it to name me famous psychology universities in europe and i got some institutes which i never new.
<SiFuh> Right now my friend is using this fake AI to fix his GF's car
<Guest30> hahaha
<SiFuh> Okay not fix but solver the probelm
<SiFuh> I know what the problem is
<SiFuh> Her EPAS is fried
<Guest30> lol
<SiFuh> He is checking fuses and shit
<Guest30> its the cpu tell him.
<SiFuh> Make himself look like he knows what he is doing
<SiFuh> I do like that though
<Guest30> if the car is new, tell him not to connect wrong poles at the battery, might burn the chips.
<SiFuh> I care not what anyone here says. But I tell you straight and truthfull. DO NOT BUY A CAR WITH EPAS
<SiFuh> Fucking Denis Leary from Demolition Man told you everything you all need to know when it comes to cars
<Guest30> hehe
<Guest30> listen truth story, iam driving in santorini, and you know very narrow roads. The assistant of the driver used to press the breaks with no reason.
<Guest30> it was a mess man, very dangerous.
<nekobit> SiFuh: i see it a LOT, sorry if its too direct, but look at freebsd forums for example
<nekobit> its a thing with anyone who tries something "different" sadly
<nekobit> and again i wont say at all ever that linux has good quality code
<nekobit> but its quite a good quality, open source project especially considering its rapid pace
<nekobit> well, thats debatable too, i wont die on a horse over it
<nekobit> but linux is damn near everywhere, it at least needs to be stable enough and has to undergo SOME quality checking before shitting things out the door
<nekobit> not saying things never get shit out the door either
<nekobit> but with lots of new *bsd people, they complain a lot about linux. you ask them why, they go "umm systemd", then ask why systemd, they probably respond with that wiki post or something else (they have not read even close to anything on it)
<nekobit> "i hate it because gnu" is somewhat, slightly respectable
<nekobit> if linux did stupid shit with devs saying "write better code" when say, removing a feature, then yes that is valued too
<Guest30> nekobit: you know that alpine linux tries to get rid of openrc too?
<nekobit> but all hatred toward linux never has to do or barely with the kernel
<nekobit> its never about the kernel
<nekobit> its about the userland
<nekobit> "well gnome uses systemd-" dont use gnome then
<Guest30> what is gnome? :-)
<nekobit> some european myth
<nekobit> Guest30: alpine is also focused on being very minimal right?
<nekobit> its very embedded focused
<SiFuh> nekobit: defend the kernel, and prove it
<SiFuh> I need to sleep. I will back again later on.
<Guest30> nekobit: with alpine you get full desktop experience apk is much better faster than apt, dnf or pacman.
<Guest30> SiFuh: goodnight man
<nekobit> its a powerful kernel and very customizable
<nekobit> thats all i really have to say
<nekobit> and its fast
<SiFuh> Be back later
<nekobit> later man
<Guest30> ciao
<nekobit> happy thanksgiving
<nekobit> if it's even time...
<nekobit> but linux features and it definitely has some cool features
<nekobit> documentation is dogshit though, i will say that from heart
<Guest30> nekobit: you get almost any program you need, and if there is something like skype, flatpak works really well on alpine.
<nekobit> well yeah thats because people are supporting linux a lot
<nekobit> there are also some concerns regarding openbsd's security compared to linux with stuff like containers
<nekobit> although linux containers are a "very good hack" if anything
<nekobit> freebsd jails are cool though and i think openbsd jails chroot
<Guest30> the problem with alpine is you have to build packages against musl libc, it is not the same as hear in crux for example.
<Guest30> hear=here
<nekobit> well yes, thats one thing i didnt like about void linux, musl is odd
<nekobit> but musl is incredible for embedded linux
<nekobit> glibc is fast but huge
<nekobit> (musl is fast too)
<Guest30> myself in 20 minutes i have an alpine working with i3 or dwm from scratch
<nekobit> i think the "cleanest" approach to all of this is a microkernel :^)
<nekobit> microkernels are cool, not the most performant but i love them for taking out a lot of work from the kernel
<nekobit> microkernels are easier to "perfect" if that makes any sort of sense
<Guest30> forget about it, linux kernel is bloated... the cherry on top was the rust language.
<nekobit> with that logic even openbsd is bloat for being a monolithic kernel
<nekobit> but anyway, Rust isnt *horrible*, even linus despises its existence
<nekobit> i think rust is only for driver devs
<nekobit> and driver devs are lazy
<ukky> Guest30: CRUX uses Linux kernel. And this is CRUX channel
<nekobit> ^^^^^^^
<nekobit> too offtopic today it feels like
<nekobit> but some channels are like that
<Guest30> ok
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<nekobit> actually, i did join to ask crux related questions too
<nekobit> what are the thoughts on a binary repo of certain ports
<nekobit> automated too based on the ports list would be very cool
<nekobit> before you ask, source is awesome and all, but pretty much all bsd's have a binary repo of stuff
<nekobit> which is great for devices like laptops and stuff
<nekobit> just curious if theres a "greenlight" to such an idea
<nekobit> maybe unofficial if i was doing it but id love to work to get such a thing into CRUX
<nekobit> obviously we have the infra, no?
<nekobit> i really like that *bsd's let you install binaries, but of course that does come with a cost, and in some cases, multiple binaries of the same package with certain flags poked at
<nekobit> an extension across something like prt-get, which smoothly handles dependencies
<nekobit> jaeger, apologies for ping
<nekobit> just curious
<r0ni> there are some binaries out there for some excessive builds
<r0ni> not sure if there a full-on repo for x86_64
<r0ni> i maintain a few for arm64 tho
<r0ni> crux is source based tho, bin repos kinda defeat the point
<r0ni> anyway, its a holiday here, i'm out
<farkuhar> nekobit: there is pkg-get, if you have a powerful host on your local network that can serve up the built packages. Also see FS#1410: https://crux.nu/bugs/index.php?do=details&task_id=1410
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<farkuhar> Regarding "how many of the default components can be replaced before you have to call it something other than CRUX?" ... ukky has no problem swapping out the init system and still calling it CRUX, but seems to draw the line at the Linux kernel. I'm not sure whether such an arbitrary line survives the criticism leveled by Anton here, https://lists.crux.nu/pipermail/crux-devel/2006-August/001912.html
<nekobit> farkuhar: i notice crux likes to say bsd-like. im all for source based but distros, like void, and uh ... all the bsds atm which use the ports concept, have binary packages on the side
<nekobit> source is great esp if your system is fast
<nekobit> meant to ping r0ni
<farkuhar> tldr, Anton points to Pkgfiles as the key component that distinguishes CRUX from other distros. Making them more complex (as Fun described the fate of Arch PKGBUILDs in FS#1576) is how you get a system that no longer meets Anton's criterion for being called CRUX.
<nekobit> but Pkgfiles should allow for that kind of system too
<nekobit> its how every bsd does it now
<farkuhar> Go ahead and swap out the init system, write your own replacement for prt-get, even swap out the kernel when a viable replacement comes along. But when the Pkgfile format becomes too complex, it's no longer CRUX according to Anton.
<nekobit> they just make binaries based on ports for people who dont have the hardware or time for bins
<farkuhar> I see your point, nekobit. Why don't you join Flyspray and leave a comment in #1410 outlining what you have in mind?
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<nekobit> Fryspray? pardon, are you being passive aggressive here?
<nekobit> Oh pardon me
<nekobit> the bug tracking software
<nekobit> i thought this was "go use another distro" and flyspray was the distro...
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<nekobit> farkuhar: actually, this makes me curious (i want to discuss this here, not bug report), how much do you think CRUX as is differs from something such as, say, slackware?
<nekobit> obviously its a bit newer, and prt-get seems miles better than slackpkg(+) and its other tools
<nekobit> but, both are similar when it comes to building from source, nah?
<remiliascarlet> nekobit: "i never understood the overall blind hatred of systemd and systemd-less distros" It's not blind hatred, that's what users of bloated distro's will always tell you. There are genuine concerns like Poettering absolutely ignoring POSIX compliance and UNIX phylosophy, it centralizing as much as possible into PID 1, the constant addition of complexity into it results in more and more bugs and
<remiliascarlet> even exploits being created, which Poettering then dismisses as "won't fix", "unimportant", or "it's not an exploit, it's a feature". Something that started out as yet another INIT system has become an entire system onto itself.
<nekobit> systemd was NEVER unix philosophical
<nekobit> and afaik a lot is separated out from just pid 1, no?
<nekobit> its just that the systemd operating system handles a lot in its own packages
<nekobit> its not just a "systemd" binary iirc, no?
<remiliascarlet> Funnily enough, the same people who consider people skeptical of systemd to be "just hate for no reason" say the same thing about people skeptical of Manjaro, Ubuntu, Fatpaks, Wayland, and Red Hat (which owns systemd).
<nekobit> Well manjaro is ass, ill say that from heart
<nekobit> Ubuntu is mediocre, its just a business, these are corporate distros now. not my problem
<nekobit> flatpaks, cant say much actually
<nekobit> Wayland i do support to a degree, especially since ive WORKED with window manager development, not only from KDEs side and understanding its (terrible) kwin codebase, but even Enlightenment which i do more of
<remiliascarlet> Runit in my experience does the job of being an init system a lot better, but it's still an abstraction layer.
<nekobit> Wayland fixes old Xorg crust
<nekobit> but it does have that weird DRM dependency(?), but it seems everyone just kind of adapted to it
<nekobit> i like to say thought that X isnt and shouldnt die
<nekobit> but many Wayland devs and supporters want X to die... i digress
<remiliascarlet> nekobit: "well, im a little critical of freebsd in some ways, but regardless, still good" Wait until you read about the FreeBSD 14.0-RELEASE drama going on right now.
<nekobit> oh dear, always drama there
<nekobit> yeah, just terrible maintenance issues, i recently saw a (stupid) callout/drama twitter -like callout thing too due to "rude developers"
<farkuhar> nekobit: ask your question again when ppetrov^ is around. As you might guess from his domain being slackalaxy.com, ppetrov^ has more recent Slackware experience and can offer a more informed comparison.
<remiliascarlet> SiFuh: "I found the layout horrible /etc and /usr/etc and /usr/local/etc... That's just lazy" Yes, that's what I hate so much about FreeBSD! Want to keep 3rd party tools in /usr/local, fine! But please put the configs in /etc like how OpenBSD does it!
<nekobit> Do you ever remember the whole freebsd girls and gamergate shit??? ohhhhhh man
<nekobit> that project has a damn curse
<remiliascarlet> nekobit: A big reason for me to remain on Xorg is the lack of IME support under Wayland. The other one is that even though there are more DE's and WM's for Wayland, they're all either Gnome, or KWin, or sway.
<farkuhar> "ghastly to death" is how Anton characterized heidi's proposed extension of Pkgfile syntax. What jue has done on the Optional line of opt/gnuplot does not merit the same harsh description, but it does seem to arise from a misunderstanding of what exactly I was trying to address with my softdeps-aware prt-get fork (https://git.crux.nu:82/farkuhar/prt-get).
<remiliascarlet> The other problem with Wayland is that despite being so much "simpler" compared to X and having so many more people working on it, it seemingly takes them more than 15 years to even come up with anything functional.
<nekobit> Wayland is far from simple, i like to compare it to the opengl-vulkan situation if anything
<remiliascarlet> And then they expect every legacy program that is still in use today, but nobody maintaining it to get ported over to Wayland. Well, good luck with that!
<nekobit> making a window manager takes more work
<nekobit> xwayland fixes that, honestly
<nekobit> but some x11 apps will remain x11 at worst
<remiliascarlet> Make sure that Fcitx5 works under Wayland as advertised, then I'll consider switching.
<remiliascarlet> By that time, I'll stay with X11.
<nekobit> i dont even use Wayland, haha
<nekobit> but there are efforts to port E to wayland and i have to look at that to learn about it
<nekobit> E = enlightenment wm
<remiliascarlet> Because it makes no sense for me to switch to something that doesn't let me type in my native language.
<nekobit> again, this is (unfortunately) the responsibility of a wm and such i believe
<nekobit> thats why i still like x11 to a degree, things are simpler
<nekobit> x11 is messy as hell though, but it can be fixed with extensions and such... seems all efforts go toward Wayland though
<nekobit> fixed (barely)
<farkuhar> The main way my softdeps-aware fork differs from the current prt-get is that it adds an edge from A to B in the dependency graph under circumstances that the current prt-get does not consider. Namely, that A has listed B in its "Optional:" line, and B is either currently installed or given on the command-line as an install target. That way the topological sorting algorithm will move even the optional dependencies earlier in the queue.
<remiliascarlet> Yeah, that's the problem. In X11 you put your variables in ~/.xinitrc or ~/.bash (or another shell). Meanwhile, Wayland's defacto standard is /etc/environments, which requires root to edit, and on top of that, the developer of a compositor can just go like "nah, /etc/environments is gay, I'll put it under /etc/env.conf", and now software developers will need to make sure to support 2 different
<remiliascarlet> standards.
<nekobit> it is absolutely possible for someone to put that all in their own file in a home directory......
<nekobit> its just that there are no rules regarding this with Wayland
<remiliascarlet> Like with package managers. There are many different mutually incompatible standards, and they thought they can solve it with Fatpaks, but ended up adding in one more mutually incompatible standard.
<nekobit> zero rules, wayland is just a big ol compositor
<farkuhar> The "Optional:" field in the Pkgfile gets split on whitespace and commas (after trimming off the field name), but jue is using parentheses in the opt/gnuplot Pkgfile. I can change the parsing so that the line is split at parentheses too, but it should be easier to just insist that maintainers format their optional deps exactly as they format the hard deps.
<nekobit> and stuff like input is not waylands job ( i may need to dig into this )
<remiliascarlet> Which is perhaps the reason why there are only 3 Wayland compositors after all those years.
<nekobit> yeah, wayland is just hard to work with
<nekobit> but if its done right, it will be good
<nekobit> problem is, nobody will do it right ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯
<remiliascarlet> Not to mention that Gnome and KDE both have their own sets of rules, and they aren't fund at following each other's rules.
<nekobit> farkuhar: sorry for the offtopic babble, ill look at the bug report and think of this on my own terms tomorrow maybe
<remiliascarlet> I'm already looking forward for the replacement for Wayland. Wayland was made because at the time, X11 was 24 years old. Wayland is now 15 years old.
<farkuhar> nekobit: no worries. Thanks for considering a more durable medium like the bug tracker. These IRC chats are hard to follow, with so many topics flying around simultaneously.
<nekobit> it seems so and i understand and apologies for being part of the chatter
<nekobit> remiliascarlet: probably wont happen, 2 is enough
<farkuhar> hey, SiFuh had his turn (for at least 20 years now). It's always good to see a new voice entering the chatter.
<remiliascarlet> Same was said with PulseAudio. And then Pipewire was born.
<nekobit> im however hoping for a cool rust replacement without all the c++ like stuff and bad planning, before i consider "safe languages"... :-)
<nekobit> farkuhar: thanks, i installed a while ago, i was impressed, but also curious on goals to make it feel more like a traditional bsd
<nekobit> i was mixed on slackware and crux when choosing it, sure there are big differences, but i mainly care about package management, which both somewhat do the same
<nekobit> scratch "traditional bsd", modern
<remiliascarlet> "im however hoping for a cool rust replacement without all the c++ like stuff and bad planning, before i consider "safe languages"... :-)" You mean Carbon? I'd rather just stay with C.
<nekobit> i still use and love C
<nekobit> is that Carbon?
<nekobit> i thought Carbon was yet another C++ replacement
<remiliascarlet> Carbon is Google's new "C++ replacement".
<nekobit> I want something like a safe Go/C language
<nekobit> just simple syntax
<nekobit> but with something like a borrow checker kind of concept
<remiliascarlet> Set to release in 2025, but employers are already hiring people with 10+ years experience in it.
<nekobit> Go is safe, but its GC has its quirks esp in the embedded field
<remiliascarlet> Go is safe enough. C language can be written safely, but the responsibility is where it belongs: to the programmer.
<nekobit> Borrow checker is nothing more than a fancy static analysis tool, no?
<nekobit> i thought it _did_ have reasons for being part of the language
<nekobit> but thats my final little issue
<nekobit> Rust does too much, its an environment, not a language
<remiliascarlet> I only use Go for web development. C++ for game development, but that's more because there's so much more support out there, and even though I hate OOP, it does come in handy in video games. And I use C for all else.
<remiliascarlet> PHP for my dayjob, but I need to pay my bills.
<nekobit> Rust is a "dayjob" language imo
<remiliascarlet> I'm trying to find a usecase for Lua, not really into embedded programming myself, and customizing Neovim is too niche, but maybe one day people start using it for AI development over Python?
<remiliascarlet> Maybe it is where you live, but in Japan you'll be hard pressed to find any Rust jobs.
<remiliascarlet> Every job opening is either PHP, or Java, or Javascript, or C#, or Python, or a mix of them, or all of them at the same time.
<remiliascarlet> And COBOL.
<nekobit> i LOVE lua, in fact ,we're using it for our (my) own GUI toolkit's theming ing
<remiliascarlet> Lua is like Python, but without the dependency hell, and with fewer crashes that happen because of the dependency hell.