jaeger changed the topic of #crux to: CRUX 3.7 | Homepage: https://crux.nu/ | Ports: https://crux.nu/portdb/ https://crux.ninja/portdb/ | Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/crux/
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<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: p5-mozilla-ca: 20221114 -> 20230801
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: texlab: 5.8.0 -> 5.9.0
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: python3-logbook: 1.5.3 -> 1.6.0
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: python3-whey: dropped
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: gtk4: 4.10.4 -> 4.12.0
<cruxbot> [opt.git/3.7]: linux-firmware: 20230625 -> 20230804
<lavaball> is there any documentation besides the help in menuconfig for the kernel options?
<tilman> lavaball: can't think of anything right now, but in case you didn't know yet: 'make localconfig' and 'make localmodconfig' might get you started. those options create configs that should fit your current hardware
<lavaball> ooohhh. nice.
<lavaball> thanks so much.
<lavaball> have you any experience on how accurate those are?
<r0ni> they should get you booting provided you are using ext fs, and things are generally vanilla. may not include all your hardware if it's eccentric but it def should work
<tilman> iirc they are mostly helpful for possibly not-so-obvious stuff related to your mainboards chipset and cpu features
<tilman> i'd recommend that you start with 'localconfig' instead of 'localmodconfig' and only begin to ferry stuff out to modules once you have a bootable system
<lavaball> okay. so far i got nothing. i'm still feeling out the waters.
<lavaball> i found nothing about musl though. can i have? or glibc only?
<lavaball> i mean of course i can install musl on every linux distro. i'm basically asking if it's a doable option or if i should rather go elsewhere.
<SiFuh_> lavaball: On the iso under kernel/contrib is a modular config for AMD64 and X86 computers.
<lavaball> nice.
<lavaball> thank you so much.
<SiFuh_> There is also a reeadme with every kernel src under /usr/src/linux-<VERSION>/Documentation/admin-guide/README.rst If you extracted to /usr/src/ that is.
<lavaball> but is that more than the menuconfig help option?
<SiFuh_> But the modular config was included to make it easier for beginners to just build a fully functioning kernel. After booting into their fresh install they can then use lsmod to see what modulars they need and then slim their kernel down at a later date if they so desire.
<SiFuh_> modulars/modules*
<lavaball> that's not me though. i rather start with nothing.
<lavaball> also when i boot from the iso can't i just do lsmod and stuff there?
<SiFuh_> Many boot another distro like Ubuntu or Debian to see what modules their computer needs. Then configure the CRUX kernel accordingly.
<SiFuh_> lavaball: Nope.
<lavaball> okay. got it. i'll go with the other distro boot then.
<SiFuh_> Why? Why not just build the one with CRUX. The same kernel then get your system up and running. Then once you are happy and have time, start working on your kernel.
<lavaball> also my musl question wasn't really answered, was it? or did i not notice.
<SiFuh_> That way if you mess up, you have a working kernel you can boot back into
<SiFuh_> I didn't see that question.
<lavaball> M <lavaball> i found nothing about musl though. can i have? or glibc only?
<SiFuh_> No musl. It is all glibc here
<lavaball> this saddens me greatly.
<SiFuh_> You will have to rebuild core and modify many ports
<lavaball> any plans for the future to go there?
<lavaball> oh, i understand. i'm just a big fan of the new and tight stuff.
<SiFuh_> Not sure and I doubt it
<lavaball> okay. thank you for clarifying.
<SiFuh_> Yeah, I played around with musl a bit, it was kind of neater and cleaner
<tilman> are you building an embedded system?
<lavaball> haha, that's the really funny, becuase i wouldn't notice probably. i have no idea what i'm doing here. i just here it's smaller and more orderly and i'm in.
<lavaball> i just hear.
<lavaball> tilman, and older intel nuc board. so not really embedded. small and slow though.
<SiFuh_> lavaball: uses MMC right for the main disk?
<tilman> i doubt you'll notice any difference running one libc or the other really
<lavaball> SiFuh_, i think so.
<SiFuh_> If so, we had the CRUX iso updated not so long again to be able to support that ;-)
<lavaball> tilman, yeah, but i don't notice any difference over at arch either. this is just to regenerate my nervous system. as weird as this sound. but all that tinkering makes me feel smart and accomplished.
<SiFuh_> NUC should be fully supported with the kernl/contrib/ modular config. I remember working on that for a few hours.
<lavaball> i got it becauase arch arm didn't have a hardened kernel and i had even less experience back then. now i thought it would make a great docking station for stuff i can't mount in openbsd.
<SiFuh_> What can't you mount in OpenBSD?
<lavaball> basically everything.
<lavaball> openbsd doesn't suppoert many filesystems.
<SiFuh_> Hmm, OpenBSD has fuse support
<SiFuh_> I use OpenBSD as my main driver, my TV Box, my NFS server and on my laptop.
<lavaball> i mean i get using it for desktop, but why for anything else?
<lavaball> openbsd is liking being vegan. you only get a fraction of the options and if you aren't careful your system locks up and dies.
<lavaball> still best desktop system though.
<SiFuh_> I actually have no problems with OpenBSD except it doesn't support my MediaTek MT7921K Wireless card or Alpha AWUS1900 USB wireless dongle. But everything else runs fine
<lavaball> then by all means. enjoy.
<lavaball> though explain to me the fuse thing if you can.
<SiFuh_> I also used OpenBSD as my server for decades without any issues. It is no more though, lightening struck the building and fried the server
<lavaball> i mean i used it for sshfs, which is also complicated and treacherous.
<lavaball> oh, sorry to hear.
<SiFuh_> ntfs-3g exfat mtpfs and others
<lavaball> ext4?
<lavaball> zfs?
<SiFuh_> No ZFS that I am aware of
<lavaball> also i have another issue, that it doesn't show me all the files if they have weird characters in their names.
<lavaball> like not just not just blank parts or hyrogphlys, nothing. like doesn't exist.
<lavaball> anyway, thanks again for elaborating. much appreciated.
<SiFuh_> lavaball: I know what you mean about the characters. Terminal or console?
<lavaball> ksh, terminal.
<lavaball> isn't terminal console? is there a difference?
<SiFuh_> Font
<lavaball> the same font i use on all boxes.
<lavaball> oh, got it.
<SiFuh_> lavaball: I have a lot of Thai music so the characters are all boxes in terminal and at a console they are all ascii
<lavaball> so a terminal is like xterm, and a console is when i connect it via cu?
<lavaball> i don't get the difference. i mean okay, they have different fonts. that i've gattered.
<SiFuh_> Console is a screen connected to your box. An example of a console is alt+ctrl+F1
<lavaball> i see.
<lavaball> thanks again.
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<lavaball> oh, make localconfig is a crux thing. i tried that over at gentoo. no takers.
<SiFuh_> You mean 'make localmodconfig'
<SiFuh_> lavaball: CRUX doesn't have any special kernel configuration modifications at all. Only what exists in the default source kernel is what you got
<SiFuh_> lavaball: With maybe a few patches that we use to to assist in a compiling a port that may break against another port, (Many of these patches are already available thanks to the Gentoo, Alpine, LFS and Arch team), pretty much everything in CRUX is in a pure state. We follow the simplest or needed configuration, strip out the junk but we don't change anything. CRUX is basically a very pure Linux Distro.
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<SiFuh_> The pkg/prt system is basically a set of scripts (recipes) that assist you in automated compilation from source. You can change or tweak them at any time. But we keep them as clean as possible and no excess junk, nothing else changes. The prt/pkg system allows us to keep track of where stuff is installed to and gives us the ability to remove it as well.
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<lavaball> no, make localconfig was mentioned earlier.
<SiFuh_> So what?
<SiFuh_> Did you verify it?
<lavaball> yeah, that's what i got as well.
<SiFuh_> /usr/src/linux-<VERSION>/Documentation/admin-guide/README.rst <-- If it ain't in here then it doesn't exist.
<lavaball> okay.
<SiFuh_> lavaball: Most people don't build a kernel from scratch. They go backwards from a working kernel. They trim off what they don't need.
<SiFuh_> In doing so, they learn more about the kernel. A person on the other-hand starting from scratch is going to waste so much time reading and studying and trying to understand and linking what is needed that it will take them years..
<SiFuh_> I bet no one here has ever configured a kernel directly from scratch. Since then 3.X days
<SiFuh_> In the 90's and early 2K it wasn't so bad, there wasn't so much code as there is today. But once we progressed past 3.X kernel it just became massive. It was easier to upgrade from an older kernel than to start fresh.
<SiFuh_> These days most people who come to CRUX have a working or semi-working configuration. They progress or strip down from it. All good. But if you think you can open up Menuconfig and configure the kernel in less than 20 goes then that ain't happening.
<ukky> lavaball: If you are interested, I have Linux kernel config files for 2 Intel NUC units: NUC7i3BNH and NUC6i5SYH, for Intel i3 and i5.
<lavaball> i would need atom. do you think i'll get some use out of your configs even though they are different cpus?
<SiFuh_> ukky: Thats fantastic. I think CRUX should have a configuration directory specifically for contributed kernels like yours.
<SiFuh_> farkuhar: jaeger: ^
<SiFuh_> lavaball: Atom Z series?
<ukky> lavaball: I have config for Intel Atom Embedded (Bay-Trail series I)
<ukky> If I am not mistaken, it is Atom 38xx series
<SiFuh_> E series
<ukky> SiFuh_: I guess you are right, probably Atom E38xx
<lavaball> Intel Atom E3815
<SiFuh_> ukky: then your config will surely work with E3815
<ukky> I think config is for Atom E3845
<SiFuh_> ukky: lavaball: E3845 Linux config and E3815 will work fine
<SiFuh_> They are pretty much identical with a few peformance boosts
<ukky> I trimmed config pretty hard as kernel had to fit in ~4.5MiB EEPROM space.
<lavaball> nice. i'll take it then.
<lavaball> why you put it in eeprom space?
<SiFuh_> Embedded <-
<SiFuh_> tilman: mentioned above if you wer working on an embedded system as well.
<lavaball> yeah. my bad.
<SiFuh_> jaeger: has a NUC. Not sure if it is still running CRUX or what CPU it has.
<SiFuh_> I myself use a Morefine S500+ which isn't a NUC but similar in some form.
<SiFuh_> Running OpenBSD though..
<ukky> lavaball: It is used in a custom system. User has no access to OS. System loads Linux kernel from EEPROM (read-only). This system is not NUC-based.
<ukky> lavaball: The latest config I have is 5.15.59. I'll send the link soon.
<SiFuh_> lavaball: If you build a MUSL cor, then I would be interested and pretty sure many of the dev team would be too
<SiFuh_> cor/core
<lavaball> you are overestimating my power!
<SiFuh_> You want it? You freaking take it dude
<lavaball> haha.
<lavaball> let me finish gentoo. then i'll get at it, okay? no need to bite my head off!
<SiFuh_> I was last year working on a MUSL version of an installation ISO only but I had some speed bumps in my way and I kind of moved on
<lavaball> actually, i cna't even make that promise. i also want the berggruen and the franchise.
<SiFuh_> It was for the CD only. Not for actual installation
<lavaball> well, if you didn't make it how far do you think i'm gonna get?
<lavaball> i'm sorry. i have to bow my head in shame and leave the achievements to the grown ups.
<SiFuh_> I have about 19 projects non-computer related at the moment. It is pretty much how it is in my life. I am really only here on breaks and beer time :-P
<lavaball> tell me about it! i can't even afford the beer.
<SiFuh_> You in a Western Country that isn't Hungary?
<lavaball> germany. we make the beer.
<SiFuh_> Sad, best beer ever is from Germany
<lavaball> i wouldn't know, but i'll take you word for it.
<SiFuh_> I make alcohol for a living. Well these days not. But my most favorite beer is Weihenstephaner. I just drank a bottle of heffe beissbier
<SiFuh_> Hefe weissbier*
<lavaball> they make beer?
<lavaball> i only knew about milk.
<lavaball> and butter.
<SiFuh_> Oldest brewery in the world
<lavaball> their butter is the shit, i tell you.
<lavaball> yeah, really not my field.
<lavaball> i believe you.
<SiFuh_> Second favorite is Brok from Poland and third is Hertog Jaan from Belgium. But I will choose German over any beer, no contest
<SiFuh_> I beleive me too, I drink it ;-)
<lavaball> no need for smilies.
<SiFuh_> You will if you drink a Weihenstephaner or even a Oettinger
<lavaball> i once got drunk on oettinger malzbier. 0.2%
<lavaball> so, yeah, intoxication comes fairly cheap in my life.
<SiFuh_> I have a lot of respect for Oettinger. They refused to bow down to the big corporate and specifically ran a family owned business
<lavaball> again, no idea.
<SiFuh_> 0.2?
<lavaball> % alocohol.
<SiFuh_> You got Turkish/Asian/Mongol blood?
<lavaball> drank one. felt my face getting warmer.
<lavaball> no. i don't drink at all. like nothing ever.
<SiFuh_> Ahhh you got Asian blood
<lavaball> not really.
<SiFuh_> You got red face or warm feeling, you got yourself Mongol/Aisan DNA somewhere :-P
<lavaball> i doubt it. then my parents would have that issue too. they don't seem to.
<SiFuh_> It doesn't run through everyone. But still I know some people that can prove they are not in anyway Asian or Turkish and have it.
<SiFuh_> My wife drinks a shot glass of my beer and she looks like Mars.
<SiFuh_> She is Asian of course
<lavaball> my face isn't turning red though.
<lavaball> i just feel warmer.
<SiFuh_> I actually use her for testing my alcohol percentage.
<SiFuh_> She is farily accurate ;-)
<SiFuh_> My wife's face can prove Tiget beer in Malaysia is a scam and is NOT 5% alcohol.
<SiFuh_> Tiget/Tiger
<lavaball> okay.
<lavaball> we all have our hobbies i guess.
<lavaball> but
<lavaball> i'll allow it.
<ukky> lavaball: http://0x0.st/H_KU.txt
<lavaball> thanks so mch!
<lavaball> stole it and now gonna pretend it's my own!
<lavaball> wahhahaha!
<ukky> That config was used in Gentoo. It was trimmed a lot and might not have all devices enabled. That kernel (from EEPROM) makes KEXEC into full kernel, so it might have only boot resources/devices enabled.
<lavaball> well, gives me a place to start from.
<lavaball> i'm grateful.
<SiFuh_> ukky: 100% build by you?
<SiFuh_> Specifically for the NUC yes?
<ukky> SiFuh_: Yes. But not from scratch. I usually take working config from similar CPU architecture and go from there.
<ukky> The above config is not made for Intel NUC.
<SiFuh_> ukky: all good
<ukky> But I have two configs for NUCs, also made by me.
<SiFuh_> I thought the NUC is what lavaball wanted
<ukky> There are so many NUCs...
<SiFuh_> ukky: This is a really stripped down config
<ukky> Two NUCs I have at home are Intel i3 and i5 based
<SiFuh_> But no E3845?
<ukky> No, E3845 is a embedded CPU chip we use at work.
<ukky> s/a/an/
<SiFuh_> ukky: Sorry if I sound stupid but why this config for an E3815?
<ukky> SiFuh_: Config for E3845 should be good for E3815, AFAIK. Intel always marks E38XX in their specs.
<SiFuh_> Is that the actual config for the E3845?
<ukky> AFAIK, yes. I have to log-in into one of the devices and give you exact CPU ID. I have CPU microcode somewhere... Let me find CPU ID.
<SiFuh_> But not a NUC E3845?
<ukky> It is not NUC E3845. The config is for Intel Atom E3845.
<lavaball> oh.
<SiFuh_> So then lavaball may have some issues then
<lavaball> well, the thought counts.
<SiFuh_> Yeah compact mini PC shit is a pain in the freaking ass.
<SiFuh_> Especially Chinese/HK and Taiwan stuff.
<SiFuh_> Kernel and CPU may work but the system doesn't
<SiFuh_> lavaball: you can always try ;-)
<SiFuh_> I'd still like to see ukky and other users having contributued to a server for CRUX their Kenrel configurations.
<SiFuh_> Would probably need to have a README with each config though to show the actual hardware
<ukky> lavaball: Can you clarify E3815 term? Is it Intel NUC E3815 (Mini-PC)? Is it Intel Atom E3815 (CPU)?
<SiFuh_> 19:48:20 [lavaball> tilman, and older intel nuc board. so not really embedded. small and slow though.
<SiFuh_> Is what I am going off
<ukky> SiFuh_: Latest Intel Atom CPU ID for E3845 is 0x30679, stepping D0. It has codename BayTrail-I
<lavaball> ukky, mini pc.
<lavaball> wait, isn't that the cpu number, let me check.
<lavaball> 3815 tyke is the nuc board name.
<SiFuh_> ukky: so does 3815
<lavaball> but also e3815 intel atom.
<lavaball> same number.
<SiFuh_> A config for a kernel is not really for a device that has many attachments.
<SiFuh_> Ahh shit. A Config for a CPU is not really for a device that has many attachments.
<SiFuh_> A PC/Server/Custom Build/Laptop/Mini PC/Tablet may have the same CPU but not the same hardware
<ukky> SiFuh_: I totally agree. My config is for embedded system. Some devices on PCI bus are not enabled. PCI express lane distribution is custom.
<SiFuh_> ukky: Yeah I actually perused through your config. Nice but not for a NUC
<ukky> Still, it is much easier to configure the system starting with this config than creating new config from scratch
<SiFuh_> ukky: I would have to agree in some part. But why not start from a fully working model and strip away from it?
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<ukky> SiFuh_: That is one approach. I usually take config from similar CPU and modify it to accomodate to new hardware, using any distro as second reference for modules being loaded
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<SiFuh_> ukky: Most guys are from other distros and keep a lsmod of what they need then build from that
<SiFuh_> I bet if you look at some of the CRUX staff's configs you will find ancient shit that doesn't need to be there. But it worked 10 years ago :-P
<SiFuh_> I myself wanted a kernel configuraton I'd know that works, no need to rely on any other distro. Just install, confgure and compile. Afterwards you can f* with it whilst running a full fledge CRUX system. No need for other distros. By the way, it was modular for more than one reason. I decided to make it more modular for laptops that can attach pretty much anything
<ukky> SiFuh_: Another approach is lspci, then scanning kernel sources and finding drivers for missing devices. Similar approach for USB devices.
<SiFuh_> ukky: It is how I build my configurations
<ukky> cool
<SiFuh_> I wanted a config that works. But modular had to be the rule. That way us CRUX guys can reverse eningeer it
<ukky> I am newbie at CRUX, that's why I use 'other' distros. When I fully switch to CRUX, that will be the only disto :-)
<SiFuh_> The down side is that it takes longer to compile
<SiFuh_> My config takes ages to compile, but once compiled it will support pretty much most regular stuff.
<SiFuh_> From it you can reverse it and choose what you really need
<SiFuh_> I hope to design a new config when CRUX releases a new ISO. Still waiting on jaeger about that.
<SiFuh_> It is a freaking dick job but, I like it.
<SiFuh_> Soon as jaeger gives me the all clear on the Kernel version I will start work on it
<ukky> I prefer non-modular kernel for my systems, but for bootable generic ISO the modular approach is best, as it is easier to figure out what is being used by specific system.
<SiFuh_> Same
<SiFuh_> That's the point brother!
<SiFuh_> Unfortunaetly it can't be done directly by ISO. It has to built by the user.
<SiFuh_> Already 1GB of RAM is not enough for CRUX. Imagine with all our fancy stuff how much RAM CRUX will steal
<ukky> With team effort we can improve on that, if needed
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<SiFuh_> I would like a team effort
<SiFuh_> But to be honest, alone is quite okay. I can keep track of everything that way
<SiFuh_> For example my wife sends mesage to mechanic about Rim sizes. He asks whyat do you want Road/AT or MT. She forgets to ask. The when she remembers I say MT and she never tells the Mechanic at all. I remind her daily so much that finally she snaps and says "I DON'T WANT TO FUCKING TELL HIM".. WTF?
<SiFuh_> People are weird and stupid. I prefer to work on the kernel alone myself
<SiFuh_> Too many bullshit Western movies about Women being smarter and stronger than men. Yet she comes to me to open a bottle and change a flat tyre.
<SiFuh_> Like to see her try to change a tyre on my truck. They are 35 inch wrapped around 16 inch rims.
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<jaeger> SiFuh_: I always stick to a recent or current longterm kernel, think I've mentioned that before. So if you're around there it's a good start.
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<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: firefox: update to 116.0.1, support wayland-only builds