04:41 <remiliascarlet> SiFuh: zorz can't escape the electrical wiring in his tight jeans.

05:48 <SiFuh> Heh

06:20 <ppetrov^> farkuhar, would would be a good way to make pkg-get aware that certain packages have been rebuilt? Since the port build number is not incremented when I simply rebuild something against updated libs?

06:20 <ppetrov^> somehow compare md5sums? Maybe I can try to make myself a script to do that and report what have been rebuilt

09:11 <SiFuh> aardo: I watched CNN for about 2 minutes when I was flicking through the channels in the hotel room several months ago. I was cursing at the amount of lies they were spreading so I ended up changing channel.

10:04 <aardo> SiFuh: I'm italian, I just watch sometimes US news network channels for specific reasons, for example now because of the imminent election. There's a lot of biasing, when not outright lies.

10:04 <aardo> bias*

10:07 <SiFuh> I am watching the election fraud :-)

10:08 <SiFuh> aardo: So much corruption in the election system and those bloody Democraps are such filthy bold faced liars. Every fscking thing from their mouth is a fscking lie.

11:06 <zorz> Obama the rapper, lose yourself

11:06 <zorz> Eminem is good!

11:10 <SiFuh> Eminem sucks

11:13 <SiFuh> zorz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R_6EwpBL5o

11:18 <zorz> Obama sucks

11:18 <zorz> hehe

11:19 <zorz> Trump is ave maria & ymca, obama is eminem... elections are parody

11:19 <SiFuh> zorz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIPr4UyiZGE

11:19 <zorz> so american public does not vote according to the plan of the candidate but with music criteria?

11:20 <zorz> SiFuh: my line is not settled yet

11:20 <zorz> no way to watch youtube

11:23 <SiFuh> Last one was about a car

11:41 <farkuhar> ppetrov^: Unfortunately the package database does not provide enough details for pkg-get to know when something has been rebuilt. Ultimately the limiting factor in all these operations is the minimalist format of /var/lib/pkg/db. You'd have to maintain a parallel database for pkg-get operations, if you wanted to retain information like timestamps or eagerly-linked dependencies.

11:45 <ppetrov^> well, I have CRUX installed on 3 PCs, a laptop and 2 workstations

11:46 <SiFuh> farkuhar: Would be nice if crux had a more advanced database. OpenBSD uses /var/db/pkg/<pkgname>/+*

11:46 <ppetrov^> get's a bit tedious to solve issues when I update

11:46 <SiFuh> +CONTENTS +DESC +REQUIRED_BY +REQUIRING

11:46 <ppetrov^> i don't care so much about the ones at home, but the two workstations at, hm, work are a different story

11:48 <ppetrov^> my simple idea was to keep track of the md5sums of the packages installed and have md5sums of the packages database. If there's a difference, I get a 'report' what needs to be reinstalled

11:50 <ppetrov^> too bad pkg-get is written in perl. It it were python, we could've asked zorz to improve it

11:50 <ppetrov^> :P

11:51 <farkuhar> SiFuh: heh, your +* syntax highlights one of the differences between Perl regex and bash globs. In my Perl rewrite of prt-get, I had to replace the + in port names to fix the regex matching in one of the subroutines.

11:52 <ppetrov^> farkuhar, is it bad to have a + in the name or version?

11:52 <SiFuh> farkuhar: The file names start with +

11:53 <SiFuh> ppetrov^: farkuhar: https://dpaste.com/BCNWJ4BDD.txt

11:53 <ppetrov^> meningococcal

11:53 <ppetrov^> rofl

11:54 <SiFuh> myiasis is downstairs. lujo is the laptop, machupo is the other laptop. Not to mention all my external drives kyasunur, dipylidium, mucormycosis and so on.....

11:55 <farkuhar> SiFuh: I know what you meant. ppetrov^: it's not disallowed to have + in the name or version, but my first attempt at implementing the Perl equivalent of `prt-get dependent $foo` was failing with foo=libsigc++, until I ran the port name through s/\+/\\\+/g.

11:56 <SiFuh> farkuhar: Actually OpenBSD port system is written in perl

11:56 <farkuhar> SiFuh: I remember looking at those scripts for inspiration, when writing the perl drop-in replacement for prt-get.

12:01 <SiFuh> ppetrov^: My father uses Winshit. Everytime I copy a movie to my external drive to transfer to his computer he always lets the Windows Auto Scan thing happen. Not for virus' but for file contents. I would shout "Stop! Cancel that! My hard disk has many virus' on it" and he would. But it was getting annoying telling him everytime because he would always forget. So I named the drive VIRUS so when he sees

12:01 <SiFuh> it. It jogs his memory.

12:01 <farkuhar> SiFuh: It would be nice if CRUX had a more advanced package database, but if we change the format, what would be the migration path for existing installations? Just choose a new location on the filesystem, and refer to that location in a new release of the distro tooling (prt-get, pkgadd, pkginfo, ...)?

12:02 <ppetrov^> changing the format would be too drastic and i doubt it will happen

12:03 <SiFuh> ppetrov^: When I started getting more than one external drive, I decided to name them all after virus'. If the virus started with D it was a data drive. M was a multimedia drive. Eventually I started naming all my machines, routers, and even flash drives after virus'. In Kyrgyzstan I was at a job interview. The guy asks where are my papers. I said "Here, shove HERPES in" and I handed him a USB stick.

12:03 <SiFuh> He thought I mispoke. Then on his PC it says HERPES. Then he laughed.

12:04 <SiFuh> farkuhar: Would be difficult. Probably could whip a script to convert your old ports into the new format. And push it for the next distro upgrade.

12:05 <farkuhar> ppetrov^: what's wrong with following OpenBSD and populating /var/db/pkg/<pkgname>/ with separate files for all the metadata and build options? If the directory exists, new distro tooling can use it; if not, falling back to the original /var/lib/pkg/db would be sensible behaviour.

12:05 <SiFuh> ppetrov^: When I lived in KL everyone was always poaching off my Wi-Fi like zorz does. So I named the router Syphilis. Evertime some asked me for the password I'd reply "You want access to Syphilis?" and they'd say no, and walk away.

12:06 <SiFuh> farkuhar: And who really upgrades the version? Don't they just do a fresh install?

12:08 <farkuhar> ppetrov^: you could also say replacing glibc with musl is "too drastic", but SiFuh and emmett1 made it happen, at least for the core ports. Some ports in opt or contrib might need further patching, but "too drastic" was not used as an excuse to avoid the initial work.

12:08 <ppetrov^> :)

12:10 <ppetrov^> farkuhar, nothing is wrong. simply, this is beyond my competence at the moment

12:11 <SiFuh> And replacing openssl with libressl was a small task too. However subversion didn't like it and rust was a dick.

12:12 <farkuhar> Heh, if we had a more advanced database, then tracking the optional dependencies of installed ports would not involve as much guesswork as my naive implementation currently uses.

12:13 <farkuhar> SiFuh: And who really uses subversion these days? Hasn't everybody adopted git for their version control?

12:13 <SiFuh> That was the last version before OpenBSD did some heavy tweaking and it was no longer functioning on CRUX and I didn't have the time so I switched back to OpenSSL https://gitlab.com/SiFuh/unmaintained/-/tree/master/libressl

12:13 <SiFuh> farkuhar: The firs paragraph of my README is a lie. I used it on a fully functioning desktop. :-P

12:15 <SiFuh> Maybe I will install CRUX 3.8 on my laptop when it is released

12:18 <farkuhar> We don't have to wait until CRUX 3.8 to start testing a new format for the package database. We just need to patch prt-get, pkgutils, and prt-utils to take advantage of the new db, and put the updated distro tooling into our private overlays, masking the core ports.

12:20 <SiFuh> farkuhar: You could also do it in stages. Introduce the new db/pkg but still use the old db. Then slowly over time, migrate more and more of the new updates so that it happene all behind the scenes.

12:25 <farkuhar> SiFuh: "And the cast of the War Games (2024) is creepy as" <- you never did finish this analogy. At first I thought you might have finished the sentence with characters that my terminal font doesn't support, but then I checked the whitequark logs and found the same abrupt ending to your post.

12:27 <farkuhar> Terminal font lacking support for all Unicode characters is the reason I couldn't follow that conversation with zorz the other day. All the Greek characters showed up as whitespace in the terminal.

12:33 <SiFuh> The cast are creepy as.

12:34 <SiFuh> By the way, I watched it last night. There were so many dumb things being said.

12:36 <SiFuh> There was one twat saying it is our right to protect the country from tyranny and they have to stop the uprising (paraphrasing). I am like thinking to myself. Does he even hear himself? The uprising is because they know the government is tyrannical and youa re on the side of the government.

13:00 <SiFuh> farkuhar: if you are using MUSL then you won't need to worry about charsets. So it's probably a font issue

13:08 <SiFuh> LC_ALL=en_AU.UTF-8 LC_CTYPE=en_AU.UTF-8 LC_COLLATE=C

13:34 <farkuhar> SiFuh: my ~/.Xresources has "Zutty.font: VeraMono" and "Zutty.fontsize: 24"

13:41 <SiFuh> Zutty?

13:41 <SiFuh> The Zutty Show! hahaha

13:42 <SiFuh> I was away shaving and stropping the blade.

13:45 <farkuhar> No discussion of distro tooling would be complete without Anton's 2006 reply to heidi's thread on "use flags" ... but a cursory scan through lists.crux.nu does not find Anton's remarks. Did the pipermail -> hyperkitty transition lead to data loss?

13:48 <SiFuh> I bought this to replace my last two. And I can't believe how well it retains its sharpness. I strop about 20 times before I start and 20 times after I finish and it has been going on and on and on for several years now. I should have bought this brand to begin with instead of a Chinese one and a Pakistani one. https://s3.amazonaws.com/i.snag.gy/3MUvRg.jpg

13:49 <farkuhar> Note that it's possible to revisit the format of the package database without making any changes to the Pkgfile format (as stenur wanted to do for his "simple overlay" proposal). Changing the package database format is less objectionable, in Anton's view, than changing the Pkgfile format as stenur wants to do (promoting dependencies to shell variables, rather than commented lines).

14:12 <SiFuh> https://www.iwastesomuchtime.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/68/2021/12/110201704123423205-65161.jpg

14:12 <SiFuh> https://i.pinimg.com/736x/65/1c/56/651c565cf49be191290086ad1bcd00a6.jpg

14:12 <SiFuh> ppetrov^: farkuhar: Ever read those?

14:25 <farkuhar> Heh, it looks like heidi double-posted in 2006 (to both lists, crux and crux-devel), but Anton only replied to the crux-devel thread. That's why my cursory search of the crux archives made it look like heidi got no replies. So there wasn't any data loss in this case, Anton's words are still preserved here: https://lists.crux.nu/archives/list/crux-devel@lists.crux.nu/message/W4R2IEDDJAK2ZPGDICY7VEIUGVKBQV6X/

14:38 <farkuhar> The +CONTENTS example in https://dpaste.com/BCNWJ4BDD.txt is interesting. It explicitly lists +DESC as a file associated with the package, but not +REQUIRED_BY or +REQUIRING. Then it prefixes some of the paths with classifiers like @bin or @so or @man, while other paths don't get such classification. It's a more comprehensize database format than needed for ppetrov^s use-case (informing pkg-get when a rebuild has happened).

15:04 <SiFuh> farkuhar: Maybe +DESC exists for pkg_info. Because 'pkg_info cmus' will check in /var/db/pkg/cmus to see if it exists. If so it will display "Information for inst:cmus-2.10.0p0" and the description. If you don't have it installed then it will search the online repository and say 'Information for <URL HERE>' and the description.

15:08 <farkuhar> SiFuh: Allowing that +DESC exists under /var/db/pkg/cmus/ for the sake of pkg_info, why does it need to be mentioned again as a line in /var/db/pkg/cmus/+CONTENTS? Surely pkg_info can check on its own whether /var/db/pkg/cmus/+DESC exists, it doesn't need to parse /var/db/pkg/cmus/+CONTENTS first.

15:09 <SiFuh> farkuhar: My favorite feature from the OpenBSD ports is when you install a package and then the dependencies are installed automatically. If you remove the package, you then use pkg_delete -a after and it removes all those dependencies that were automatically installed

15:10 <SiFuh> farkuhar: Maybe to make sure people remember to make a DESC file ;-)

15:10 <farkuhar> SiFuh: I think zorz was trying to do something similar with python dependencies in his pip2crux tool.

15:14 <SiFuh> zorz tries to do a lot and I don't like his code

15:16 <SiFuh> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

15:16 <farkuhar> George Bernard Shaw?

15:16 <SiFuh> No idea. Some dude was reading it out of a book.

15:17 <SiFuh> What if progress is unreasonable ;-)

15:18 <farkuhar> More context needed for "Some dude was reading it out of a book." Are you referring to a scene in War Game (2024)?

15:18 <SiFuh> Nope, Classified (2024)

15:19 <SiFuh> farkuhar: As for creepy as. The cast were all leftards

15:20 <SiFuh> Democrat Senate candidate Lucas Kunce accidentally shot a reporter during a campaign event, proving yet again that leftists have no clue how to handle firearms.

15:21 <farkuhar> I can sympathize with the idea that progress is unreasonable. Consider all the sound servers that we've seen in three decades of Linux desktop development. The other day I was reminded of a time when Enlightened Sound Daemon, aRTS, and OSS4 all occupied different niches, much like sndio, pulseaudio, and pipewire do today.

15:22 <farkuhar> Meanwhile I still cannot get firefox to respect the environment variables AUDIOPLAYDEVICE and AUDIORECDEVICE as a way of emulating a full-duplex soundcard with two different physical devices. Only AUDIODEVICE is respected, and that env var must point to an actual full-duplex card.

15:23 <SiFuh> OSS :-P

15:26 <SiFuh> farkuhar: Here https://venam.net/blog/assets/audio_unix/linux-audio-output.svg

15:27 <SiFuh> https://venam.net/blog/pdf/audio_stack/audio_stack_unix.html

15:28 <farkuhar> zorz: 'lo

15:28 <SiFuh> zroz <--

15:33 <farkuhar> According to linux-audio-output.svg, OSS is a driver, not a server. But the legend doesn't say what the grey ovals are supposed to represent. libraries? userspace programs?

15:35 <SiFuh> They all look like libraries

15:35 <SiFuh> But I see some software like VLC in it as well.

15:36 <SiFuh> So I would say gray is 'software'

15:40 <farkuhar> I should try a desktop installation of OpenBSD to see whether emulating a full-duplex soundcard with two different physical devices is possible by exporting AUDIOPLAYDEVICE and AUDIORECDEVICE. The man-page suggests this would work, but web-based videoconferencing is a whole different beast, subject to the whims of the browser developers and what they choose to implement.

15:51 <SiFuh> farkuhar: What is this webbased video conferencing thing?

15:52 <SiFuh> I remember for Skype Web and for Zoom, I needed to modify the browser's about:config to try them to think I was using Windows Explorer or some shit.

15:52 <SiFuh> try/trick

15:53 <SiFuh> farkuhar: My useragent for Thunderbird is User-Agent: Atari, Inc. 1980 (Atari 2600; 8-bit MOS Technology 6507 @ 1.19

16:12 <SiFuh> Hmm, I just discovered Spell-Check in Emacs ;-)

17:16 <farkuhar> Okay, forget webbased videoconferencing if that's too narrow a use-case. Just connect a set of USB speakers (play-only) and a USB webcam (record-only), start sndiod with the -m play or -m rec flags, accordingly, export AUDIOPLAYDEVICE and AUDIORECDEVICE, then visit two websites in firefox: onlinemictest.com to test AUDIORECDEVICE, and youtube.com to test AUDIOPLAYDEVICE. On Linux I haven't gotten it to work; maybe on OpenBSD it will be fine.

17:18 <SiFuh> I don't have a mike

17:18 <SiFuh> mic

17:26 <SiFuh> farkuhar: I think zorz is sad because lavaball his buddy is gone.

17:48 <farkuhar> SiFuh: Which of zorz's problems is easier to fix? His unstable Internet, or his lack of friends?

17:48 <SiFuh> farkuhar: I am pretty sure his unstable internet is ebcause he is stealing Wi-Fi from the surrounding neighborhood

17:50 <farkuhar> Stealing Wi-Fi is a good way to discourage people from befriending him. Maybe the two problems have the same root cause, then.

17:50 <SiFuh> He needs my tech for Wi-Fi poaching, but the equipment isn't cheap and he has no money

17:52 <dlcusa> Re: reason and progress, the quotation is off-target. Frank Zappa pointed out what reall goes on: "Without diviation from the norm, progress is not possible." But not all deviation is reasonable and/or helpful.

17:52 <SiFuh> farkuhar: He needs an AWUS1900, A couple of Vonets VAP11G-500's and a BrosTrend AC1200

19:49 <farkuhar> SiFuh: "Windows Explorer or some shit" <- reminds me of some CD-Rs that I burned in 2017 and 2020. Every time I try to mount them under Linux, the /bin/mount command hangs indefinitely. I have to cut the power to the external optical drive in order to kill the mount command. I end up taking the discs to a Windows computer, only to discover that they don't even hold the files I thought I would find on them.

19:50 <SiFuh> Who's harassing me at 03:49 in the morning?

19:51 <SiFuh> farkuhar: Yeah, done that two. Funny you mentioned CDR's. I have two blank CDR's I asked my wife to pinch from her office so I can burn some country music songs onto CD that way if she charges her phone we can switch from USB drive to CD whilst she poaches the USB port in the car.

19:51 <SiFuh> two/too

19:52 <SiFuh> I asked for two because I will try burn mp3's to one as a test. If the MP3's don't work then I will go to CDDA. She brought them today.

19:53 <SiFuh> And for some weird reason. Creed Fischer doesn't play from the USB stick in the radio. But it plays fine from a cigarette lighter port with an FM transmitter.

19:53 <SiFuh> Fisher*

19:55 <SiFuh> farkuhar: I was listening to his music when I was bottling beer today. I thought this one was good. Creed Fisher - If You Have a Right to Burn My Flag (Then I Have a Right to Kick Your Ass)

20:05 <SiFuh> farkuhar: I miss my USB blueray burner, my SAS LTO5 cartridge drive, my record player and my brother's PS1 :-P But they are all in Australia :-(