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<beach>
If I remember, I think I'll bring the following things to ELS: 1 copy of CLtL2, 1 copy of Keene "Object-oriented programming in Common Lisp", 1 copy of Allen "The Anatomy of Lisp", and the 3 volumes of the (old) "The Handbook of Artificial Intelligence". And I will then organize an auction. But the problem is that I don't know to whom to give the money. ELS doesn't need it. Any suggestions?
<beach>
.. and maybe Jones & Lins "Garbage Collection". I have the newer version of that book, so I don't need to first one.
<beach>
*the first one
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<jackdaniel>
is suggesting mcclim tpo self-serving? :) I plan to make opencollective account
<jackdaniel>
too*
<beach>
No, I'll take any suggestions. The obvious ones are of course "give it to me!".
<jackdaniel>
I forgot the exclamation mark :(
<beach>
I am pretty sure it won't be a lot of money anyway.
<jackdaniel>
probably. speaking of els, I stay home this year
<beach>
Oh?
<jackdaniel>
too busy with family stuff and limited holiday budget
<beach>
I understand.
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* beach
doesn't think if ELS as "holiday", but perhaps it is now that he is no longer writing papers for it.
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<madnificent>
beach: i don't fully understand how sbcl keeps evolving so positively so i'll add my vote to that. i vaguely recall Xach spending money to keep quicklisp going and perhaps there are similar projects like that? without immediate benefit i think many would trust you with keeping the funds and spending it when there'd be a benefit for the community.
<madnificent>
if by any chance closer to mop would go on auction, i'd be interested
<beach>
Thanks. I believe Douglas Katzman is paid full time to work on SBCL.
<beach>
Xach might be a good candidate.
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<beach>
I don't believe there is a book about "Closer to MOP", is there?
<beach>
Maybe you mean "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol"?
<beach>
I have only one copy of it, and I use it regularly.
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<madnificent>
beach: i meant "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol" indeed
<beach>
The ones I mentioned I have two copies of, because I had one at home and one at work, but now I am retired so both copies are at home.
<gilberth>
beach: Would I find some notes or annotations by you on the margin? Or decorations otherwise?
<beach>
Probably not. I usually don't scribble in my books.
<gilberth>
A pity.
<beach>
I see what you mean.
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<gilberth>
I inherited a lot of textbooks about physics and math mostly from my grandpa. You find a lot of margin notes. At times very brief like: "Bullshit!" (in German and written using Sütterlin of course).
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<beach>
That must be a great read.
<beach>
If I scribbled in my books, I might have written something like that in the book about operating systems by Tanenbaum and Bos.
<beach>
... or in the Algorithms books that can't get binary search right.
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<madnificent>
beach: auctioning the books is a great application of available resources. will common lisp stay alive at the university?
<beach>
We (me and my favorite coauthor) taught Common Lisp at the university for 15 years straight, with more than 100 students each year. It was time for someone else to take overs and that someone is not using Common Lisp, but I think we did a pretty good job.
<beach>
But maybe you mean at universities in general. Probably not.
<beach>
Several of our students contributed to McCLIM, for instance. And two students wrote a window manager (Eclipse) in Common Lisp for X11.
<madnificent>
too bad. i think it had a positive impact. it is still one of the most valuable languages to learn if you expect to work in more than one. thank you for your efforts.
<beach>
Sure. And yes, it is one of the most valuable languages to learn.
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<bjork1intosh>
beach: is there any use for the old AI approaches now that we have what we have today?
<bjork1intosh>
let's call the thing NeFAI -> new fangled AI as opposed to GOFAI
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<beach>
bjork1intosh: I don't know. I may have to carry those books back. :)
<bjork1intosh>
haha.
<beach>
Well, probably not. Someone will likely take them for a symbolic amount.
* beach
is off to spend time with his (admittedly small) family.
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<aeth>
gilberth: math textbooks are probably the best kind of nonfiction book to inherit... not much has changed in 50 years... or even 100 years... and even Euclid's Elements aren't _that_ outdated.
<aeth>
bjork1intosh: Afaik, GOFAI still has plenty of applications. For instance, (most) game AIs aren't going to be GPU-based for a long time. Too much expense/latency for remote use, too much GPU use for local use (games will prefer graphics or even physics there).
<aeth>
And determinism (so players can figure out how the AI works) is probably a feature, not a bug.
<bjork1intosh>
aeth: math textbooks are not easy to read.
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<aeth>
bjork1intosh: math is notationally dense... if you wrote it out in prose you would (1) have an even harder time than with the dense notation, but (2) finally understand why it's hard to get through a few lines in math
<aeth>
consider e.g. how COBOL handled arithmetic, except an entire book like that
<aeth>
"Let x be a natural number. Let y also be a natural number. Take the summation of x and y..."
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<aeth>
So math stuff seems hard if you have prose expectations in how fast you can get through it.
<aeth>
On the other hand, if you're someone like me who actually has an internal monologue for reading (people differ on this! some people don't even have an internal monologue at all!), you do have to invent or figure out the way to say certain symbols since the book usually doesn't tell you (but an accompanying math class usually would)
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<aeth>
This is probably why I like Common Lisp. Almost nothing is a symbol! A language that has 5 types of arrows or a == vs ===, etc., has a bunch of unsearchable, unpronounceable things.
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<varjag>
interesting point
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<veqq>
APL is great for math! I've had a good time reading math books in APL lately.
<bjork1intosh>
veqq: like which?
<bjork1intosh>
aeth: almost nothing is a symbol? what does the "S" in S-Expression stand for?
<aeth>
bjork1intosh: I mean in the sense of, say, ( or # or + or - or / or * or ).
<veqq>
- Intro to College Math with APL - LeCuyer
<veqq>
- Elementary Functions - Iverson
<veqq>
- Applied Mathematics for Programmers - Iverson
<aeth>
Though generally you don't read ()s, say "sharpsign" for # if needed, and read the rest as they are read in arithmetic, unless * is supposed to be "star"
<aeth>
and ' is clearly just quote (but often not read), while #' is clearly just function (but almost always unread)
<aeth>
Most languages have a lot more issues like foo[3] as opposed to (aref foo 3)... or = ("equals") and == ("equals") and even sometimes === (you guessed it, "equals")
<veqq>
Well, equality has a lot of semantic overload, in lisps too, to be fair
<aeth>
every single one pronouncable, though. At least if you need to distinguish between them.
<aeth>
Java even has a .equals() method to add to the list of things that you would just call "equals" if you read it out loud. Although I guess that's "dot equals"
<aeth>
There's even a canonical way to say cdaddr (cudadudur)
<veqq>
I think the issue's rather that mathematics has poor discoverability, than lisp is better here
<aeth>
Mathematics assumes a ton of prior knowledge. And if you were having a bad year at any point from 5 years old to 22 years old, you may have missed it.
<aeth>
Thankfully, we have Khan Academy and 3blue1brown, etc., these days
<veqq>
I don't think programs should be optimized for someone who doesn't know how they work (i.e. having all pronuncible words instead of symbols). The issue's that mathematicians e.g. dont make glossaries of their symbols and different subfields will use some random greek letter to mean something else, and no books actually clarify this, you should just magically know this (or ask during grad school)
<veqq>
I know of a few books which credibly teach mathematics (past calculus) from 0, in 3-400 pages
<veqq>
It can be done, it's just so many worse books block them out etc. Many which try also fail due to weird notational issues. The ones which I deem good, probably also aren't, just I was able to work through the first and then the others seem grokkable afterwards
<aeth>
single letter variable names don't help, yes... there's only so many Latin letters, and then you add distinguishable Greek letters (some aren't distinguishable from Latin) and at that point you're almost out of alphabets because Cyrillic doesn't have too much distinguishable from both Latin and Greek and someof those are easily confused with numerals (6, 3, 4)
<veqq>
Oh no, I mean more to the point of... They provide equations without legends. You'd never make a map or graph without a legend/index!
<veqq>
Anyway, I've been in a similar position, doing finance for ~5-10 years with weak math.