<aeth>
if that even shows anything for you... I tried to refine it, compare it to other languages, switch it to global from the default of US, etc., and it is just saying "Oops! Something went wrong." a lot. Anti-scraping measures that are too aggressive, I guess. I'd try to use it logged in, but then it'd probably pollute my YouTube recommendations algorithm.
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<bjorkintosh>
oh that's funny. I did it for tcl and it shows a definite upward trend.
<bjorkintosh>
until I looked a little closer and noticed it meant TCL the electronics company.
<bjorkintosh>
not tickle (it's *dying*) tk
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
veqq, culturally they're different. I think people who've gotten the most out of Common Lisp aren't interested in implementing a Lisp with less features.
<aeth>
Clojure would probably be more interesting to a Schemer.
<aeth>
Common Lisp is not particularly FP
<Pixel_Outlaw>
I think more people came to Clojure from web driven languages than say came from Common Lisp.
<aeth>
(not particularly FP, but if you need it, fset is probably the most popular library)
<Pixel_Outlaw>
People didn't use Clojure because it was "a" Lisp (in the large) they used it because they could spin up map munching web servers more easily than a 30 file Java project and do it with much less code.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
And their DevOps team would deploy it since it was Java based.
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<decweb>
I happen to like the Clojure APIs and have most of them in CL, since I also happen to like CL. CL can be as FP as you want it to be, but I like the non-judgemental less religious. FP is fine until it isn't, and I like being able to CL:LOOP, or use generic functions, or CLOS as I see fit.
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<decweb>
Add to that CL's flexible readtable which allows for #{}, [], {} without even going against the standard capabilities of CL, though it does preclude you from those characters them in "normally read" symbols if you use those readtables.
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<decweb>
But if you're looking for full on clojure, there's little point to using CL, or implementing Clojure in CL. When it comes to the environment, CL's compilation model, and so on, they're different beasts.
<decweb>
Leaving aside all socio-political aspects of the languages, clearly Clojure's an easier sell to many companies than CL.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
decweb, I found that like you I wanted choice. There were times at work I wanted something more than a map and after the fact type enforcement. They often settle for less too for the sake of "simplicity".
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
You can define a struct but after a transformation or two it oozes back into a giant ball of mud with all the other mashed in maps.
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<beach>
decweb: Why is Clojure an "easier sell to many companies"?
<bjorkintosh>
because they already have java and the jvm, most likely.
<beach>
I see.
<bjorkintosh>
familiar ground and whatnot.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
beach, yes. And despite being a JVM company the DevOps guys still hated it because the latest Java deployment tools didn't always hook in cleanly. :P
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Eventually my company just mandated Java and took away our licenses for our Clojure tools.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
It was a crappy day.
<beach>
I understand.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
I do wonder what people are doing with ABCL. That was quite an undertaking. I wanted to do some work with the native Java Swing GUI libraries but it wasn't quite as easy as Clojure to do Java interop.
<veqq>
decweb: What do you use for the Clojure APIs? I hate the JVM etc. but love [ ] and the polymorphic collection operations
<veqq>
CL is better, faster, smaller, more featured with images etc. but Clojure's APIs are so ...comfy and elegant. I've seen a few Clojure-ish projects for CL but I'm not sure which is best etc.
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<decweb>
I've been biting off clojure for CL in manageable chunks, and have some libs like https://github.com/dtenny/clj-con on github. However after a couple of half-assed attempts at the collection APIs, I decided it just wasn't enough unless
<ixelp>
GitHub - dtenny/clj-con: Clojure-style concurrency operations in Common Lisp
<decweb>
I had the lazy seqs and all the machinery that goes with it. So now I'm working on the clojure collection and sequence APIs, and it's coming along, and I'll eventually release it to github, but it's probably another couple of months away
<decweb>
It encompasses immutable collections as well as all the CL collections, so you can seq your way across anything.
<decweb>
But making it clojure compatible in the particulars is time consuming, and I'm already a couple thousand test assertions into the project.
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<decweb>
It's a good learning experience, this week I learned that only the `map` transducer accepts multiple inputs, and that the only way you can invoke that multiple-input xform with clojure-native APIs is via its `sequence` function.
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<decweb>
I also learned that the `sequence` function ought to be called "up-is-down-and-down-is-up", I think there's a bit of DWIM design in that API. Turning collections into _non_ lazy seqs, and turning eager transducers into lazy seqs, all in one function.
<decweb>
IMO :-)
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<decweb>
Beach: Yes, java fits corporate needs, and clojure has enough community to make it go aways. CL not so much, though I'm heartened by what seems like an increase in new CL people in the lisp discord.
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<decweb>
veqq, there are some other clojure-in-cl projects out there, like cloture and clclojure. I think they've been left to languish, and, and making the clojure language in cl was never my goal, so they weren't for me. There's at least a dozen projects with some bit of clojure in cl.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
I just worry about those data literals with wacky brackets being used in a mutative way leading to undesirable behavior. Mutating literals is dangerous in CL and that can creep in through unassuming functions like sort.
<veqq>
DWIM?
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<veqq>
Thank you for sharing!
<bjorkintosh>
Do What I Mean.
<bjorkintosh>
it's getting closer to reality.
<bjorkintosh>
much, much, closer.
<decweb>
#{}, {} and [] my library create immutable entities, though you can configure two of them to create common lisp hashtables and vectors. So I can have it as I like it. And I make all the APIs work on mutable stuff, I like my mutability just fine. The rule is more or less "mutable in, mutable out".
<decweb>
Similiarly, "immutable in, immutable out".
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<decweb>
But the default configuration is such that if you're typing clojure syntax and clojure APIs, it's going to behave very much like clojure.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
so does [1 2 3] resolve to the literal #(1 2 3) or is it an instance?
<decweb>
The reader syntax are reader macros basically, so reading [1 2 3] expands to a form that by default creates a persistent vector.
<decweb>
#(1 2 3) is a CL literal with the usual caveats
<aeth>
personally, if I were going to use [], I'd use it for the other [] from {} languages.
<decweb>
Bedtime for me, there's a lot of caveats and details that I've documented, don't want to stay up on them now :-)
<aeth>
[a 42 43] => (aref a 42 43)
<aeth>
doesn't save much space, but it adds up with e.g. matrices
<decweb>
Mine is a _CLOJURE_ set of APIs and syntax. If you want some other language support, you'll have to look elsewhere
<aeth>
yes
<veqq>
I'd love to see this when done (or eve before)
<aeth>
anyone can make [] whatever they want
<veqq>
Very tangential, would you like a lobsters invite? Could use more lispers there
<decweb>
I like that CL lets us have these preferences and implement them
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<decweb>
Dunno what lobsters is, you can find me on the lisp discord server regularly though
<veqq>
I detest discord. I'll see you around here, though. Sweet dreams!
<aeth>
imagine Hacker News without the San Francisco or flamewar topics, and with much fewer comments, but only substantive
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
aeth, sounds like an improvement. :P
<Pixel_Outlaw>
I assumed the lobster thing was some tangent thing to the Rust mascot.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Being a slightly different type of sea-bug. :P
<aeth>
it has a lot of Rust-adjacent stuff, since it covers almost the same subjects as HN (minus all of the non-programming stuff)
<aeth>
so idk if it actually has something to do with Rust or not
<veqq>
Alas, we overload all our symbols
<veqq>
No relation to rust. I forget the history but the founder basically just picked something randomly
<aeth>
I picked something randomly once
<aeth>
I came up with zombie raptor
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<veqq>
Oh man, that reminds me of a zombie cupcakes web3 thing I had a call with once
<aeth>
the sad thing is that the old web is quite small
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Hmm one of the problems now that I think about it is Clojure's notion of equality. It's not quite as robust. So what are all these little shorthand things resolving to? Especially around hash tables.
<aeth>
I only lurk, but I do recognize people between Hacker News, Lobsters, Tildes, etc. And even on non-technical forums as well. (Lots of people reuse names!)
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<aeth>
There's probably only a few thousand people between them
<veqq>
I actually hate how all packages carry random instead of descriptive names. I'd much prefer e.g. NuBank-Accounting-Brazil or Jake-Metalurgy-Chemistry-Functional-v2-fixed
<aeth>
veqq: yes, hence Zombie Raptor
<aeth>
I really do strive to deliver what's advertised
<veqq>
After I became active on lobsters, I found myself in communication with half the prolific posters of topics I care about and suddenly notice them on reddit etc too. It's ...I don't know, sad
<ixelp>
GitHub - slburson/fset: FSet, the functional collections library for Common Lisp.
<aeth>
yes, getting value types is a bit frustrating.
<aeth>
That's why numeric encoding is so great. You can just =
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<aeth>
Personally, I think the best approach here is to embed a DSL
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
For me, I'd probably just use an s expression that regards the first parameter to be the comparison predicate in the case of an odd number of &rest arguments. so (hash #'equalp "foo" 21 "bar" 22) or (hash 'foo 21 'bar 22). I think the biggest gripe is the two step hash table setup in Common Lisp.
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<beach>
Heard on the news a few minutes ago: "In Toronto at this time of year, the temperature can be upward of minus twenty degrees below freezing".
<yitzi>
Whats the issue, aside from a very confusing and convoluted sentence?
<veqq>
Ive literally gotten over a meter of snow over the past few days. Great stuff! But it doesn't make me butcher English
<yitzi>
I don't need an excuse to butcher English sentences. I do it for free all the time. :)
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<tux0r>
what is the currently recommended way to run sbcl dumps from openbsd's ~ without ulimit -a errors? having data size set to infinity does not fix it, at least.
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<beach>
The issue is that "upward" usually means "higher" but this reporter probably meant "higher absolute values", and "minus twenty below freezing" would be "twenty above freezing" so the entire sentence suggests unusually warm summer weather.
<beach>
But I was trained as an engineer, and we value precision, so I am probably just too picky here.
<aeth>
clearly, such a statement can be corrected as simply as adding the word "magnitude" (which should imply absolute value for 1-dimensional figures without sounding quite as nerdy/mathy as "absolute value")
<edgar-rft`>
when it's from the news why not use new asolutely abstruse logic? :-)
<mwnaylor>
Just got to read the Clojure and Common Lisp comments from earlier, sorry I missed in real time. Like Clojure because I ha had a job developing Scala. There I grew to appreciate immutable data structures. Had been a steady emacs guy for a few years before that; extending emacs w/ elisp moved me to a Lisp mindset. Clojure is a nice blend IMO. Though somewhat in the lisp-1 camp via Clojure, working w/ elisp has been a great help w/ Common
<mwnaylor>
Lisp. Adding into the mix, when I upgraded from Slackware 14 to Slackware 15, I could no longer build the xmonad window manager. Shifted to stumpwm, which is built upon CL.
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<mwnaylor>
If I want (and I do) to occasionally extend my window manager, has to be through common lisp.
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<gilberth>
aeth: Like "Temperatures can reach minus upto twenty?" *puzzledlook* And curious we don't have this problem in German, we would say "bis zu minus zwanzig". This "bis zu" is "as {far,near,up,down,high,low,large,small,whatever} to"
<veqq>
Well, we can do "down to minus 20". In some contexts we can also reduce it to "(un)til" like "it kept going until (hitting) minus 20" or such.
<veqq>
Tangentially, some people claim it's wrong to use over with numbers, although brother tongues and old texts happily use it
<aeth>
Clearly I meant to say: The magnitude of the deviation of the temperature away from freezing will be greater than twenty degrees centigrade (or equivalently more than twenty kelvin) in the lower direction.
<gilberth>
Oh right, "til" was the word that I forgot about.
<aeth>
Since I don't provide the number, kevlin and degrees celsius are equivalent.
<aeth>
So my vector-based approach has that advantage, too
<gilberth>
Yes, what's up with Kelvin is up with Celsius. Could have been the other way! :-D
<aeth>
but you could try to be a bit less nerdy about it and try to say something like "a magnitude of more than twenty from freezing", which, yes, could also imply warmer.
<aeth>
But context will eliminate the other option.
<tux0r>
being a german living in germany, i have started to use fahrenheit for outside temperatures three years ago, because it's less illogical than celsius (i am not a water kettle). that makes it more interesting to give the current temperature :>
<tux0r>
"32°. ... f, not c"
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<tux0r>
context, indeed.
<gilberth>
I would just say "It could get as cold as -20°C". And who came up with "centigrade"? Whenever I read that I think 1/100 of one °C or 1/100 K.
<aeth>
I do find celsius to be the least advantageous metric unit in day to day use. You're not going to convert orders of magnitude (which is the huge advantage... nobody can go from inches to miles or the other way around)... and if it went from 0°C to 200°C there'd be more useful precision since people tend to round-to-whole-numbers
<aeth>
(as the two numbers it's based around, I mean)
<tux0r>
is celsius actually metric?
<tux0r>
i mean, 0 to 100 exists in all scales, and they're all defined as.. something.
<tux0r>
IMO there are no "metric temperaturs"
<tux0r>
you rarely have "centi° C" in everyday life
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<tux0r>
but given that everyone here seems to have put me on their ignore list (which is totally understandable), see my on-topic question much above, i'll leave you to it ^^ good night
<aeth>
I think it comes before absolute zero. Because clearly the two numbers you'd want to base it around would be absolute zero and freezing, but freezing is 273.15 K, and not something like 100 K or 300 K or 1000 K or whatever... (Celsius could still exist as shifting K to a more day-to-day range)
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<aeth>
But this is getting very #lispcafe
<aeth>
and indeed I wasn't sure which one I was in until I checked
<gilberth>
Both scales set their zero at a non-zero temperature. Celsius at least picked a 0 and 100 that I can easily reproduce. Otherwise it doesn't matter you just remember what some temperature is. And O°C being the freezing point has some convenience and is for outside temperature a somewhat meaningful temperature as things start to freeze. And it's easier to say below zero than below 32.
<aeth>
You'd say "below freezing" and memorizing one arbitrary number (which, coincidentally, isn't too arbitrary to a computer programmer) is much less of a disadvantage than, say, using imperial distance units
<aeth>
A metric user clearly designed GPSes because it switches between "miles" (normally) to "feet" (never, ever, ever used in the context of driving) for small distances.
<gilberth>
aeth: Let's move to #lispcafe before we're politely asked for.
<aeth>
Yes
<tux0r>
both scales are useless in everyday circumstances. celsius is only valid at a certain atmospheric pressure which you most likely will never live in.
<tux0r>
so "0°" and "100°" are easy to memorize, but technically wrong - sometimes, by a few whole degrees
<tux0r>
just sayin.
<tux0r>
and there's an obvious sign that it's "below zero": snow.