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<green>
My latest distraction is starting to work a little, so I thought I'd share. It's a way to run java code in lisp by JIT transpiling java bytecode to lisp. It maps java classes to CLOS classes, and maps java exceptions to lisp conditions. reflection, class loading, and more work. Well, enough to startup and run simple programs using OpenJDK 8's rt.jar classes. It's really just intended for when you want to use a
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<jackdaniel>
cool project!
<jackdaniel>
somewhat similar iota by froggey transpiles llvm ir to cl
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<green>
Yes, I've heard of that. But what's nice about this is that you can interleave java and lisp code, use conditions/restarts and debug your code with sly.
<green>
Many years ago I worked on gcj, which mapped java classes to C++ classes, and this is similar in spirit. In fact, I'm using some of the gcj testsuite.
<varjag>
green: this is wild
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* jackdaniel
can't wait to try running ABCL in SBCL :3
<ixelp>
GitHub - lisp-mirror/cloak: JVM written in Lisp, experimental and unfinished. https://cliki.net/cloak
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<Inline>
ah, java, rich libs from which to have the drivers ?
<green>
scymtym: no relation. In fact I had never heard of that. Although I see that it uses the mauve testsuite I created 20+ years ago.
<scymtym>
green: i see. thanks
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<green>
looking at it.. it's pretty cool, and much further along than openldk (it could start eclipse!). But it makes different decisions for a couple of things, so not exactly the same. One nice thing is that it implements the JNI interface, which I haven't tackled yet. I'll definitely learn for this -- thanks for pointing it out!
<scymtym>
sure
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<fe[nl]ix>
green: this is your opportunity to take over Cloak and merge the two code bases. David has stopped working on it long time ago
<green>
If I don't end up borrowing some code, I'll definitely use it for further inspiration.
<fe[nl]ix>
I might actually need it at some point if I can get my startup idea off the ground
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<green>
Yes, I was looking to integrate some java code with lisp a couple of years ago and wasn't very happy with the options. I think LispWorks has some special magic that you can't reproduce on SBCL. screenshotbot takes advantage of that, but you can't run the whole stack on SBCL (not that I want to.. I just noticed that they have the same problem).
<green>
And then I have some history with fringe java projects (gcj, the mauve testsuite, and I created/wrote the first version of the GNU Classpath License, which makes some of this possible)
<green>
so I thought I'd give it a shot
<fe[nl]ix>
nice
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<fe[nl]ix>
green: see the private message
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<Guest28>
I'm a bit new to CommonLisp. I am using Portacle. How can I run save-lisp-and-die without getting "Cannot save core with multiple threads running."
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<Inline>
when you have processes running,then you won't be able to
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<Inline>
btw, you don't need to run those whilst saving an image, you can run them afterwards from the image
<Guest28>
Sorry, I don't understand. I opened up Portacle fresh, I wasn't aware I ran anything. I was just running a function defun and save-lisp-and-die directly in the repl. What do you mean I can run them afterwards?
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<Inline>
i had the same issue while running clim-listener and climacs form the repl, then i would not be able to dump an image, i'd have to use something like "unbind the frames from the global context, and ignore they'll end up dirty" or some such
<Inline>
s/frames/threads/
<Inline>
save-lisp-and-die kills the running lisp anyway, so you won't have left something which is running
<Guest28>
I thought that was the way you made an executable from a lisp file. That's all I'm trying to do
<Inline>
it doesn't capture runtime afaik
<Inline>
you only need to load the systems/packages and that is what will remain in the image, processes etc. is the stuff for afterwards
<Guest28>
I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not trying to capture runtime, I'm just trying to turn this into an executable to see its size.
<Inline>
that's the whole point of the image, with that image, it'll be alway in that state, i.e. no more loading tha tpackage again
<Guest28>
Everywhere says that's how you make an exe
<Inline>
that's just defining an entry point when the image starts
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<Inline>
you say start with this function, but the running comes afterwards, you don't run it, you are just defining it
<|3b|>
talking to the editor probably involves threads, so you will need to save the image from the command line instead of from the editor
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<Inline>
yah, so he saiz he's in the repl, but when the editor is still running he will have that problem
<Inline>
just end the running editor
<Inline>
and then save your image
<boigahs>
Yeah, if you want to make an executable, you don't want to save all the slime/sly stuff in there anyways
<|3b|>
from the description, the image was probably started by the editor, so that wouldn't work :)
<Inline>
well, you can load the packages at least
<Guest28>
I assume, when I open Portacle, I have a running image. I assumed save-lisp-and-die would save that running image. But the executable option combines the runtime to make it into an exe.
<Guest28>
I haven't found any other way to make it an exe.
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<Guest28>
I also assumed I wanted to save the image from the image. As in "save yourself and close"
<|3b|>
Guest28: right, except that these days talking to the editor involves threads, and you can't save an image in sbcl if there are multiple threads
<|3b|>
you will need to manually start sbcl from a command line, load your code and then save the image from there
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<Guest28>
Okay, got it.
<Inline>
"On threaded platforms only a single thread may remain running after SB-EXT:SAVE-HOOKS have run. Applications using multiple threads can be SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE friendly by registering a save-hook that quits any additional threads, and an init-hook that restarts them."
<Inline>
"It corrupts the current Lisp image enough that the current process needs to be killed afterwards. This can be worked around by forking another process that saves the core.
<Inline>
There is absolutely no binary compatibility of core images between different runtime support programs. Even runtimes built from the same sources at different times are treated as incompatible for this purpose. This isn’t because we like it this way, but just because there don’t seem to be good quick fixes for either limitation and no one has been sufficiently motivated to do lengthy fixes"
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<Guest28>
I appreciate you finding that but I don't understand it. Are you saying a lisp image may not even work later?
<|3b|>
most of that is stuff you shouldn't care about
<Inline>
so on the main repl you'll have some extra thread registered other than the main, you can create a new thread and save the image from there
<|3b|>
if you save an executable you should be fine
<Inline>
it will kill the rest
<|3b|>
that just says 1: no threads. 2: it will exit. 3: if you didn't make it executable, load it from the same version you saved it from
<Inline>
you just can't do it from the main repl when you have another thread other than the main one running
<|3b|>
Inline: process not thread, and probably not a particularly beginner-friendly strategy anyway
<Inline>
but when you create a new thread, it won't share anything with the parent afaik, so invoking it from there will do
<Inline>
yes i know, creating new threads is not a beginner thing
<|3b|>
"thread" shares most things, that's what distinguishes it from "process"
<Inline>
?
<Inline>
isn't that vice versa ?
<|3b|>
sbcl and emacs are different processes, you don't expect them to be sharing anything right?
<Inline>
yes
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<Inline>
hmm, ok i was using :new-process t back then, right
<Inline>
but it would still tell me that it was threads
<Inline>
i know that i can also use (sb-thread:create-thread .... i.e. bare threads...
<Guest28>
Alright so my options are essentially
<Guest28>
1) Run SBCL directly (l can load a .lisp file from there?)
<Guest28>
2) Try to spawn a new thread that's not the main repl thread and try to load all the state and save the image from there.
<Inline>
i think a new process will do too
<|3b|>
Guest28: just option 1
<Inline>
unerlying it's all threads it seems
<Inline>
other than a special construct for when you really mean a process.....
<|3b|>
it is possible to create a new /process/ (not thread) and save an image from there, but more work than it is worth most of the time
<|3b|>
linux might not distinguish threads and processes internally as much as some OS do, but the distinction does matter here
<|3b|>
if SBCL sees /threads/ it won't save an image
<|3b|>
if you start a new process, it won't see the other process, or threads it created, so will save a core. But you have to do more work to make sure it is in a good state aside from the threads
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<Inline>
basically you have to load everything yourself or use a script which does it for you
<Inline>
all the packages/systems you need
<Inline>
maybe also the definitions you want to be already present
<Inline>
so that you just can invoke them afterwards
<Guest28>
What do you mean invoke them afterwards? I'm just wondering about running a CLI.
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<Inline>
in the image, and not having to redefine, but you can redefine anyway to override if you see something not fit anyway
<Inline>
take your hello example, if you define it it will be available in the image, you then just call it, if you want to make a change to it you redefine it while being in the repl of the image....
<Inline>
having it defined already gets it into the image, redefining in the image will override it
<|3b|>
Guest28: if you put that code you pasted into some-file.lisp (don't paste code into irc btw) then sbcl --load some-file.lisp it should make your hello world executable
<|3b|>
you can also just run sbcl with no arguments and paste it into the repl there
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<Inline>
right, you can have many repls as you want, other than your purpose was to somehow capture the full state of your running instance....
<|3b|>
Inline: the purpose was to make a hello world executable as far as i could tell
<Inline>
i'm not sure about that
<Guest28>
Yes that was the purpose
<|3b|>
what part of "new to CL" and pasting an attempt to make a hello world executable suggested otherwise?
<Inline>
ah ok then
<Inline>
he said portacle and saving an image
<Inline>
initially
<Guest28>
I am just editing the file on portacle. Trying to make a hello world executable.
<Inline>
allright then, just a misunderstanding
<Inline>
for such purposes you can always use another repl
<Guest28>
Is save-lisp-and-die essentially the main way one would make an exe?
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<|3b|>
it is in sbcl, yes
<|3b|>
also fairly common to just not bother with executables
<|3b|>
either run things directly from editor, or run as scripts
<Inline>
you could try cffi, and or write your own C and use (run-program "gcc" '(-O2) :output *standard-output*) or some such....
<Inline>
depends what you mean by executable
<Inline>
or :output some-file
<Inline>
heh
<Guest28>
I have been in web dev for a while and have some low level experience but not a lot. I have just been curious about the limits of Lisp and Shinmera's post on Kandria caught my eye.
<Guest28>
Also some Clojure experience so not super new to lisp-y languages
<Inline>
it goes very deep down to assembly level, hand-crafted even with lisp
<Inline>
can*
<|3b|>
main limit of lisp these days is just that it doesn't have people throwing piles of money at it like JS or whatever new languages