<paulapatience>
mwnaylor: You shouldn't make assumptions like that in the defgeneric docstring. Any third party user can define a method and decide to do whatever they want.
<paulapatience>
And it doesn't affect you at all what they decide to name their parameters.
random-nick has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
eddof13 has quit [Quit: eddof13]
shawnw has joined #commonlisp
NotThatRPG has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
yitzi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
JuanDaugherty has quit [Quit: JuanDaugherty]
brokkoli_origin has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
brokkoli_origin has joined #commonlisp
istewart has joined #commonlisp
semz has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb2build5 - https://znc.in]
Irvise has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Irvise has joined #commonlisp
pfdietz has joined #commonlisp
semz has joined #commonlisp
pfdietz has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
synchromesh has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
synchromesh has joined #commonlisp
contrapunctus is now known as fugata
puke has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
puke has joined #commonlisp
puke has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
JuanDaugherty has joined #commonlisp
NotThatRPG has joined #commonlisp
NotThatRPG has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
<beach>
mwnaylor: It does not make sense to use grp instead of group.
JuanDaugherty has quit [Quit: JuanDaugherty]
xyzoe has joined #commonlisp
shawnw has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
xyzoe has quit [Quit: Leaving]
rainthree has joined #commonlisp
waleee has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
shka has joined #commonlisp
decweb has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
shawnw has joined #commonlisp
istewart has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
wacki has joined #commonlisp
gilberth has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
ixelp has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
synchromesh has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
synchromesh has joined #commonlisp
ixelp has joined #commonlisp
theos has joined #commonlisp
Th30n has joined #commonlisp
King_julian has joined #commonlisp
Pixel_Outlaw has quit [Quit: Leaving]
lagash has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
rainthree_ has joined #commonlisp
rainthree_ has quit [Client Quit]
rainthree has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
_cymew_ has joined #commonlisp
pve has joined #commonlisp
dino_tutter has joined #commonlisp
gilberth has joined #commonlisp
jonatack has joined #commonlisp
jon_atack has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
simendsjo has joined #commonlisp
tursom has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
benjaminl has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
tursom has joined #commonlisp
tursom has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
King_julian has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
danse-nr3 has joined #commonlisp
benjaminl has joined #commonlisp
synchromesh has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
molson_ has joined #commonlisp
synchromesh has joined #commonlisp
molson__ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
awlygj has joined #commonlisp
danse-nr3 has quit [Quit: on the move]
thuna` has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
King_julian has joined #commonlisp
molson__ has joined #commonlisp
molson_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
beach` has joined #commonlisp
danse-nr3 has joined #commonlisp
beach has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
lagash has joined #commonlisp
donleo has joined #commonlisp
awlygj has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
kamafam has joined #commonlisp
Inline has joined #commonlisp
chsasank has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)]
chsasank has joined #commonlisp
<mwnaylor>
I think using grp makes sense if it keep the parameters from shadowing classes or methods that exist in the package.
nani has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
duuqnd_ has joined #commonlisp
duuqnd has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
duuqnd_ is now known as duuqnd
danse-nr3 has quit [Quit: battery over]
awlygj has joined #commonlisp
<mrcom>
Funny thing is how the principle is applied. The principle is "a name's meaning depends on context. It's OK for the same name to have two different meanings."
<mrcom>
CL idiom goes all in type/variable context. It's got namespaces, but due to "use-package" there's reluctance to duplicate across packages.
<mrcom>
And CL idiom *hates* accessor duplication.
<mrcom>
So it's (foo-baz foothing), not (baz foothing).
<beach>
It is? Only in old code I think, and the standard of course.
simendsjo has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<mrcom>
I know you're a proponent of it, but not sure about old code only.
<beach>
I think that convention makes things look really strange.
<mrcom>
It's certainly wordy.
<beach>
Like my usual example (SHEET-REGION PANE)
<beach>
"Er, wait, why take the SHEET-REGION of a PANE rather than of a SHEET?"
<mrcom>
Yeah. Subclassing is not nice to that convention.
<beach>
Right, it *might* make sense if there is no subclassing involved, like (SYMBOL-NAME SYMBOL)
<beach>
But in most modern code using CLOS, there is often subclassing involved.
King_julian has joined #commonlisp
<beach>
I have said this before, but I think this convention must have been developed when the package system was not great, or just to new to make sense to some people.
<beach>
*too new
<mrcom>
It's kind of a necessity for defun.
<mrcom>
Which is undoubtedly why it started.
<beach>
Ah, that might make sense too.
<mrcom>
I must confess to inconsistency. I've no problem with java-ish "foo.baz" for accessing a baz field. But "(baz foo)" is cause for pause.
<beach>
I am sorry to hear that.
<mrcom>
I'll live :)
<mrcom>
Integration with existing code is a bigger problem.
<beach>
As I often point out, people can do what they want in their own code. The problem comes when those people expose their code, either because they are proud of it, of because they need help.
<gilberth>
Well, I have a bit different meaning. For something that is just a property like the region of something having just (REGION X) may work. But it won't when signatures need to differ. Like e.g. MOVE. That what you might be say a buffer mark (one dimensional), a point in a plane (2d), or a point in space (3d) or something completely different like moving sth from one node to another.
<gilberth>
And this is why I am not fond of too brief name.
yitzi has joined #commonlisp
<mrcom>
Ah. Thank you. I think that clarifies my unease.
<beach>
But it is then better to use the package system and say x:move rather than x-move.
<beach>
X-MOVE smells of a language without a package system like Emacs Lisp.
<gilberth>
But: I have an issue with e.g. MAKE-TRANSLATION-TRANSFORMTION. First mentioning TRANSFORMATION is redundant a translation is a transformation. Then MAKE is misleading. They might be no object consed at all.
<gilberth>
It's like saying MAKE-SUM-NUMBER instead of #'+.
<beach>
Sure, but that's a different issue.
<gilberth>
beach: I was a bit thinking in the direction of how this incompatible signatures is an issue with generic functions but not with the common message passing OOP paradigm.
<mrcom>
Not really. You can think of the "FOO-" prefix as a group (as in mathematical group).
<mrcom>
(not-really => "different issue")
<gilberth>
But then I distaste all the languages having two syntaxes and namespaces for function invocations like x.f(y) and f(x,y) with all the problems involved.
<mrcom>
Which I think beach alluded to with "use package names"
<beach>
I have said everything I meant to say about this issue, so I'll stop here.
<gilberth>
Anyhow, I personally am old-school and prefer accessors named like FOO-BAZ instead of just BAZ.
Inline has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<mrcom>
And I'm chameleon-school and just want to do whatever the code base is doing.
<mrcom>
Although CLIM names get awwwwfully long...
_cymew_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
<gilberth>
But I can see how local nicknames may change this. Using package prefixes with local nicknames becomes feasible were it once wasn't really.
<mrcom>
And really starting to do that will lead to micro-packages.
<gilberth>
As I don't really see me typing e.g. DE.BAUHH.HTML:CHILDREN. But I could have a local nickname HTML or when I'm super lazy just H.
<mrcom>
Interesting idea.
xyzoe1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<beach>
mrcom: Is there anything wrong with small packages?
<mrcom>
Not at all!
<beach>
OK, just checking.
<mrcom>
Nothing wrong with "don't do those dumb long prefixed names" either.
<mrcom>
Just nuances and trade-offs.
<mrcom>
While we're chatting... beach: gilberth: either of you remember why menu panes (drop-down lists) are separate top-level panes rather than just obscuring children of the frame?
<gilberth>
mrcom: That won't work.
<mrcom>
That's what I wanted to know :) How come?
<gilberth>
The menu might turn out larger than the frame.
<mrcom>
Oh.
<beach>
The frame has no role here. It's the top-level sheet.
<gilberth>
mrcom: Or in case of nested pull down menus may want to stick out to one side.
<mrcom>
Yeah.
<mrcom>
Does lead to some odd artifacts. Like moving the app frame back behind another window, and the drop-down still floats on top.
<mrcom>
Conceptually its just another modeless dialog box, but still surprising.
<mrcom>
(Modal I guess, not modeless)
<gilberth>
Yes, but without decoration. "override redirect" set in X11 terms iirc.
theos has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<nil>
It's unlike modern browser UI where all manner of trouble is caused because something can't show outside it's frame, since you run things can't be trusted not to deceive.
<mrcom>
Unlike or not unlike?
<mrcom>
To me it seems exactly like. Frame has a rectangle, and that's it.
<gilberth>
mrcom: It's a bit complicated. Begins with that with drop down menus you usually grab the mouse and so nobody call pull the rug (the main frame) away. For modal dialogs you can tell the window manager that this is a popup and it's its duty to not do silly things. IIRC this is what :calling-frame is for.
<gilberth>
s/call/can/
<gilberth>
That is: The window manager knows that top level window X is a popup / aux window associated with top level window Y. The window manager would then usually keep those together.
<mrcom>
Haven't looked real deep into it, but recall there's mouse exit events to make the dropdown go away when it leaves.
<mrcom>
Come to think of it, the only reason I probably saw that was because fooling around with stuff, and created the dropdown off to the side.
<gilberth>
It gets ugly when while you mouse is grabbed the you find yourself in the debugger.
<gilberth>
You have no chance to break this grab unless you have a hack handy. I was bitten by that many, many times while I hacked the drop down menus.
decweb has joined #commonlisp
<mrcom>
Would remote debugging help? Run the debugger on another system.
<gilberth>
Sure. If you have another system. I was poor and only had one.
<mrcom>
aaannnd get into a whole new set of weird gotchas
<gilberth>
Like what. I use M-x slime-connect all the time.
<gilberth>
I really need my familiar Emacs with macos. When I work on my Linux or Windows backend, I just M-x sime-connect to that "remote" Lisp. Bonus points: I can minimize my exposure to the Windows UI.
<gilberth>
I have both Linux and Windows setup in a VM. Desk is too small for a second physical console :-/
<mrcom>
I wonder if it would be possible to do the inverse of Synergy. Rather than sharing a mouse/keyboard across systems,
<mrcom>
split a display into two separate environments.
theos has joined #commonlisp
<gilberth>
Just put two VMs next to each other? Or do you mean something else?
<mrcom>
Something else. Two mouse cursors. Two keyboard states.
<mrcom>
Do something like <scroll lock> to switch the real hardware between them.
<gilberth>
x2x?
<mrcom>
That might do it.
<gilberth>
x2x works well.
<nil>
or Xnest or xephyr, which are nested X servers
<mrcom>
I was just thinking about the debugging-UI problem. Everything's running on the same system, same process even. Just two different displays, one for the app, one for the debugger thread.
<gilberth>
This is what I was asking. x2x allows you to relay your keyboard and mouse to another X display. Xnest is different.
<mrcom>
OK, x2x is like Synergy.
<mrcom>
I was thinking xnest.
<gilberth>
Given the limited physical space, I'm fine with running VMs. But then my host is macos.
Inline has joined #commonlisp
ElKowar8 has joined #commonlisp
<gilberth>
But I'd rather would like to have two complete consoles sitting next to each other. One I would use to hack the other I would use to test. Even Linux is something I cannot possibility use for productivity. Such a Gnome or KDE desktop is as alien to me as is a Windows. And I better make sure that what I hack works with popular desktop environments.
Inline has quit [Client Quit]
steew has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
Inline has joined #commonlisp
ElKowar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ElKowar8 is now known as ElKowar
<gilberth>
Little use would it only work with ctwm. Which I would use in case my Linux for productivity would have a display attached.
steew has joined #commonlisp
King_julian has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
Th30n has quit [Quit: going off]
synchromesh has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
synchromesh has joined #commonlisp
danse-nr3 has joined #commonlisp
Alfr has quit [Quit: Leaving]
cdegroot_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
eddof13 has joined #commonlisp
NotThatRPG has joined #commonlisp
eddof13 has quit [Quit: eddof13]
acidbong has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
eddof13 has joined #commonlisp
NotThatRPG has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
NotThatRPG has joined #commonlisp
zxcvz has joined #commonlisp
zxcvz has quit [Client Quit]
NotThatRPG has quit [Client Quit]
fitzsim has joined #commonlisp
acidbong has joined #commonlisp
Alfr has joined #commonlisp
decweb has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
NotThatRPG has joined #commonlisp
cage has joined #commonlisp
Inline has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
NotThatRPG has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
wacki has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
dim` is now known as dim
beach has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by beach`))]
beach` is now known as beach
markb1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
shawnw has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
random-nick has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
kamafam has joined #commonlisp
random-nick has joined #commonlisp
wacki has joined #commonlisp
vats has joined #commonlisp
Pixel_Outlaw has joined #commonlisp
Inline has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
puke has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
pyooque has joined #commonlisp
pyooque is now known as puke
Ruby has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
Inline has joined #commonlisp
johnjaye has joined #commonlisp
kevingal has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
aciep has joined #commonlisp
runxiyu has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in]
runxiyu has joined #commonlisp
|3b| has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
eddof13 has quit [Quit: eddof13]
eddof13 has joined #commonlisp
eddof13 has quit [Client Quit]
|3b| has joined #commonlisp
_cymew_ has joined #commonlisp
shawnw has joined #commonlisp
Ruby has joined #commonlisp
prokhor_ has joined #commonlisp
prokhor has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
eddof13 has joined #commonlisp
simendsjo has joined #commonlisp
puke has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
puke has joined #commonlisp
prokhor_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
runxiyu has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1+deb12u1 - https://znc.in]
runxiyu has joined #commonlisp
thuna` has joined #commonlisp
aciep has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
zxcvz has joined #commonlisp
zxcvz has quit [Client Quit]
vats has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
zlqrvx has quit [Quit: %quit%]
zlqrvx has joined #commonlisp
eddof13 has quit [Quit: eddof13]
King_julian has joined #commonlisp
Inline has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
modula has joined #commonlisp
defaultxr has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
eddof13 has joined #commonlisp
pyooque has joined #commonlisp
puke has quit [Killed (osmium.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))]
pyooque is now known as puke
yitzi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
jweeks has joined #commonlisp
jweeks has quit [Changing host]
jweeks has joined #commonlisp
cage has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 29.4]
yitzi has joined #commonlisp
attila_lendvai has joined #commonlisp
_cymew_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
ym has joined #commonlisp
shawnw has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
markb1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
edgar-rft_ is now known as edgar-rft
eddof13 has quit [Quit: eddof13]
simendsjo has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
mwnaylor has joined #commonlisp
prokhor has joined #commonlisp
thuna` has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
thuna` has joined #commonlisp
<zyd>
Anyone know how to load the contrib jar file for ABCL? I'm trying to set up ABCL+Slime but getting an error from ABCL when starting: "Don't know how to REQUIRE ABCL-CONTRIB."
<zyd>
I'm just not sure how to point ABCL to the jar file. It's kind of weird.
attila_lendvai has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
attila_lendvai has joined #commonlisp
<edgar-rft>
zyd: the readme says you need to (require :asdf) first
ym has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<zyd>
edgar-rft: It does but unfortunately that doesn't tell me how to load the contrib jar (or whatever incantation is required).
<zyd>
(require :asdf) (require :abcl-contrib) results in the same issue: "Don't know how to REQUIRE ABCL-CONTRIB."
decweb has joined #commonlisp
King_julian has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
yitzi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
attila_lendvai has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
eddof13 has joined #commonlisp
eddof13 has quit [Client Quit]
pyooque has joined #commonlisp
puke has quit [Killed (tantalum.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))]
pyooque is now known as puke
pyooque has joined #commonlisp
puke is now known as Guest3201
pyooque is now known as puke
eddof13 has joined #commonlisp
Guest3201 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
eddof13 has quit [Client Quit]
eddof13 has joined #commonlisp
<yacin>
if i have a series of methods that combine with say LIST, what's the most idiomatic way to do a final combination? something like (apply #'concatenate (reverse result-of-method-combination))? just have a separate function that does it? i assumed i could use :after but it seems that's just for side effects
eddof13 has quit [Client Quit]
waleee has joined #commonlisp
pyooque has joined #commonlisp
puke is now known as Guest8390
pyooque is now known as puke
Guest8390 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
pyooque has joined #commonlisp
puke is now known as Guest6464
pyooque is now known as puke
puke has quit [Client Quit]
Guest6464 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
puke has joined #commonlisp
synchromesh has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
synchromesh has joined #commonlisp
<bike>
yacin: you might actually want a method combination
kamafam has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
wacki has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
awlygj has quit [Quit: leaving]
random-nick has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
JuanDaugherty has joined #commonlisp
<zyd>
For posterity: figured out the issue to ABCL install. I had put in my asdf config: (:directory #.(directory #p"~/.emacs.d/elpa/slime-2*/")) - And this prevented ABCL from loading swank I think, something alone those lines.
<zyd>
The backtrace for the error: https://0x0.st/XpI4.txt - At the top it complains about expecting a relative pathname. I didn't think *that* was the error, but it was.
Inline has joined #commonlisp
random-nick has joined #commonlisp
<yacin>
bike: i'll probably have to define my own for my usecase, but that makes sense. thanks!
xyzoe1 has joined #commonlisp
akoana has joined #commonlisp
Inline has quit [Quit: Leaving]
jon_atack has joined #commonlisp
jonatack has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
pve has quit [Quit: leaving]
bjorkint0sh has joined #commonlisp
bjorkintosh has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
shawnw has joined #commonlisp
d4ryus has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
dino_tutter has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
defaultxr has joined #commonlisp
modula has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
shka has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
amb007 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
benjaminl has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
d4ryus has joined #commonlisp
donleo has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
decweb has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
xyzoe1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
decweb has joined #commonlisp
NotThatRPG has quit [Remote host closed the connection]