<shunter>
I don't think I've ever desired that in practice, though
<Bike>
it's occasionally useful to make it easier to access some local place
<Bike>
i've done (flet ((foo (key) (gethash key table)) ((setf foo) (val key) (setf (gethash key table) val))) ...) a time or two
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<jeosol>
Bike: that code snippet is nice, I see how that can be useful.
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<shunter>
In a bit of a pinch designing this function: Dream world, it takes a keysym-handling function and returns a wl_seat-handling function to handle keyboard events with Wayland.
<shunter>
Problem is, using cl-xkbcommon means manual memory management, so the user needs to eventually cleanup all resources this function creates in the process
<shunter>
I could do this in a pinch by returning (values cleanup-function callback-function) in the end, but is there a better way to make it easy for the user to do the right thing and hard to do the wrong thing?
<shunter>
My thought process behind this approach is it forces the user to consider multiple values to get the valuable function, so discarding the cleanup function would be more deliberate
<shunter>
Soundboarding this idea out here though since they all say the first intuitive idea is often the worst one
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<shunter>
I'm really, really not satisfied with posix-shm's api...
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<beach>
vxe420: It looks to me like the variable TEXT is used only to compare to "quit" and then exit.
<beach>
vxe420: The real action must be in R1:READLINE.
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<beach>
Er, sorry RL, not R1.
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<beach>
vxe420: Are you still here?
<shunter>
Shinmera: I'm looking at your mmap library atm, is there a way to map from an fd directly? At first glance it looks tucked away by the abstraction
<Shinmera>
FDs are not portable, so no there isn't.
<beach>
vxe420: After digging a bit further, I think the example doesn't really do anything with the result, so the result is never evaluated. And RL:READLINE does not evaluate anything as far as I can see. It appears to just be the interface to the C library.
<Shinmera>
I would be open to a patch to allow FDs, but I'm not sure what the best interface for that would be.
<Shinmera>
Especially since it's questionable whether the FD should be managed by the library or not after you mmap and all.
<Shinmera>
I'm also not sure what use-case there is where you *only* have an FD, and not the file path?
<Shinmera>
Or are we talking about anonymous files
<shunter>
Here's the user-story: Wayland has a keymap event that sends over an FD bound to a keymap file I'm intended to mmap and feed into xkbcommon.
<shunter>
For portability, I suppose the API would between integers and pointers depending on whether the platform is unix or windows
<Shinmera>
And it has to be the same fd, you can't get the path from it?
<shunter>
The protocol doesn't specify that that's allowed, e.g. it could be an anonymous/unlinked file
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<Shinmera>
Ah.
<Shinmera>
At least basic support should be trivial, just change line 118 and add a case for an integer that just sets FD to PATH.
<shunter>
Plus, it would be benefitial to mmap unlinked shm objects as well
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<Shinmera>
The bigger question is what MUNMAP should do.
<shunter>
Nice, I'll work on the PR when I can get to it, thanks š
<shunter>
I'll double-check munmap
<Shinmera>
It closes the FD when passed, which is probably not what you want
<Shinmera>
%MMAP also closes it if the mmap call fails
<Shinmera>
so, need to guard against those cases somehow.
<shunter>
good catch
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<shunter>
I don't think munmap needs to change (the fd is when-checked), so I *think* it can stay the same so long as mmap returns nil as the second value instead of the fd
<Shinmera>
I suppose, though it is questionable whether that's obvious behaviour.
<Shinmera>
At least I'd be surprised that I don't get the FD back when I pass one in.
<shunter>
Could be intuitive if thought as returning a "fresh" fd
<Shinmera>
Imo it should still return the FD, but just document that you should pass NIL to munmap if you don't want to close the FD.
<shunter>
Right
<shunter>
Plus, the API already defines the return-value to be opaque
<shunter>
or rather "You should not touch this."
<Shinmera>
Well, you still should pass it to the other map functions of course.
<shunter>
All right, I'll chew on this for a few days. Thanks
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<inward>
what does VOP stand for in the context of SBCL internals?
<phoe>
virtual operation
<phoe>
(IIRC)
<inward>
thanks phoe
<inward>
I need to now learn what Virtual Operations are
<inward>
so, we call any assembly instruction in a VM a Virtual Operation?
<phoe>
more like anything that isn't a primitive assembly instruction and that is itself written in assembly
<phoe>
it's a way to write assembly directly inside Lisp
<inward>
so it's like inline assembly for Lisp?
<phoe>
for SBCL
<inward>
ah :)
<phoe>
other implementations have their own ways of doing this
<inward>
my quest is to learn SBCL specific VOPs then
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<beach>
inward: What is your objective with this quest?
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<inward>
beach: to count instructions, to find efficient code in SBCL
<inward>
is it naive to do this?
<beach>
No, no. Just asking.
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<inward>
:)
<inward>
beach: would you do the same thing to find efficient code in SBCL?
<beach>
I am not sure what "find efficient code" means. Perhaps you want to find out whether SBCL generates efficient machine code from some application code? I don't do things like that usually. I tend to focus on algorithms and data structures instead.
<phoe>
starting to optimize code from the assembly level is the wrong approach in general
<phoe>
profile zeroth, understand first, optimize the hottest code paths second
<beach>
Before that, design good data structures and algorithms.
<inward>
okay
<beach>
Then, profiling is often unnecessary because the code is good enough.
<phoe>
and as beach said, handwritten assembly for an O(nĀ³) algorithm is generally going to be defeated by a O(n) algorithm that is written in lisp and conses a lot and is compiled with (optimize (speed 0))
<phoe>
constant factors are a thing, but you can't depend on them working in general
<inward>
ahh, okay, then I guess I will focus more on algorithms and DS in lisp then
<beach>
I find Common Lisp perfect for designing good data structures. In many languages, it is much harder to do so because of all the boilerplate code that is often required.
<beach>
And in languages without automatic memory management, designing good data structures can be very hard indeed.
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<_death>
CL could use better (efficient) support for structures that require more control of memory layout (contiguous memory for structures within structures, packing and alignment, etc.)
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<pjb>
_death: you can implement that with enough macrology.
<pjb>
_death: note that this departs entirely from the lisp model of uniform reference for all lisp objects.
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<pjb>
beach: how the garbage collector makes designing good data structures harder?
<jackdaniel>
lack of gc*
<_death>
pjb: sure, macrology and implementation-specific code.. I think beach made the opposite claim, that gc can make it easier (less worry about object ownership)
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<pjb>
jackdaniel: Oops, I missed "without". Sure.
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<pjb>
_death: you can use (:type vector) defstruct as storage for your substructures.
<pjb>
Those substructures being (:type vector) too, so that you can use displaced arrays.
<easyme>
Hello, is /part
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<easyme>
Sorry
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<_death>
pjb: that may work for a particular scenario (and not others).. I think if you re-read what I wrote you can see how it's possible that one can be aware of such techniques and still make the statement
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<Bike>
for example, heterogenous structures
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<_death>
or to avoid the need for displaced array header allocation.. or being able to specify packing/padding and alignment.. basically my general point.. such interfaces could make it more convenient to design certain data structures in CL
<_death>
as it is, one may resort to FFI, which is not always so convenient or efficient
<_death>
and of course it's not part of CL :)
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<_death>
I guess it could also place limitations or complications on GC, say if it wants to move objects around.. so I'm not saying it's trivial or anything..
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<AadVersteden[m]>
beach: with respect to debugging, even with recompilation being required: the use of stickers makes me realize that it would be mega helpful to have a stepper that allows stepping backwards and forwards through the execution of a function. (did not get to reading the paper yet, probably ignore this message; value is apparent in poc code written by yours truly)
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<beach>
Stepping backwards is much more difficult than stepping forwards, though.
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<pjb>
beach: but a good enough algorithm exists, in time travelling debuggers: snapshot at each syscall and rewind to the previous syscall state, executing N-1 steps.
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<Bike>
and that is much more difficult
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<thuna`>
I noticed that the middle ~a in this format string moves right when the left ~a's length increases. Is there a way to make sure it stays at the center? "~v<~a~;~a~;~a~>"
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<thuna`>
pjb: Well, I used single ~a's in each field to simplfy the question but I want to be able to get it to work with arbitrary values, so we can consider the actual problem "~v<~@?~;~@?~;~@?~>" instead.
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<pjb>
thuna`: yes, this would be my next proposition, use ~? and format fixed size strings for each column.
<thuna`>
Does ~? accept any arguments to control width?
<pjb>
No, you would have to do that in the corresponding format-control-strings.
<thuna`>
That's not much better then
<pjb>
I find ~< hard to use. Better write your own formatting code. In this case, you seem to be wanting columns. So format each column separately, align them as you wish with the wanted width, and concatenate them.
<thuna`>
Hmmmm
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<nij->
A hash table is a map from a "1-dimensional" collection to values.
<nij->
I have a bunch of data that are parametrized by a 2-dimension collection (i.e. it's really a product of two lists)
<nij->
what data type in CL should I use?
<nij->
Naively, I can use table with tables in the slots.. but that feels a bit off
<NotThatRPG>
Is there any interest in seeing a new ILC, or will there be an ELS in 2023? I am asking because ASDF could really use a hackathon, and if would be great to have a CL occasion to attach it to. https://european-lisp-symposium.org/ doesn't have any mention of plans for 2023
<beach>
There will definitely be an ELS in 2023.
<nij->
Oh I realize what I want is a multidimensional database..
<nij->
which doesn't seem to be well supported yet
<nij->
I may have to implement my own.
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<beach>
NotThatRPG: In Porto, there were three candidates who volunteered for 2023. It is just a matter for the steering committee to choose one.
<NotThatRPG>
beach: Oh, good!
<NotThatRPG>
Next I need to figure out how to get funding to come, but this is a good first step!
<beach>
NotThatRPG: Well, I guess they need to find a program chair. And I suppose it is possible that they won't and that ELS will then be canceled. But that doesn't seem likely.
<NotThatRPG>
Not if there are already volunteers.
<beach>
No, the volunteers were for the local arrangements.
<beach>
The program chair is not tied to geography.
<beach>
The program chair is in charge of the academic contents.
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<beach>
It should be easier to find a program chair, because that person can be anywhere, and probably doesn't even need to attend the conference.
<NotThatRPG>
Yes, I agree.
<beach>
But an ILC would be good too. Are you thinking of organizing one?
<jackdaniel>
do you expect a hackathon to produce some quality results? or is it more to make people interested in developing asdf?
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<NotThatRPG>
@jackdaniel: Mostly I need to be removed from my normal context and given some space to concentrate on ASDF. And I could use some company to help me work up energy for ASDF work.
<jackdaniel>
I see
<jackdaniel>
I have a random idea: 'hack buddies' - a video conference where people aren't really talking, just hacking their own stuff, but staying on the line; suposedly this helps with procrastination and such
<NotThatRPG>
A thing that virtual conferences don't do is to pull people out of context.
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<NotThatRPG>
@jackdaniel: I think that would help for other things, but this needs a good block of time and it's going to be hard to do a day's work and then log in to work with hack buddies in my spare time.
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<jackdaniel>
I'm just reiterating what I've read about. I'm getting into the work mindset by going to the office.
<NotThatRPG>
Me, too. Unfortunately, ASDF isn't work for me. Or at least, it's not the work I get paid to do
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<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: I've tried to do that, but it's really annoying to have to stay miced and headphoned for hours on end online.
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<Shinmera>
I've had a lot of success with a local weekly meetup of fellow gamedevs though. We meet at a cafe and hang out on saturday, work a bit on our stuff, and discuss it.
<Shinmera>
Much harder to get that going for something as specific as ASDF, though :)
<jackdaniel>
sounds nice
<Shinmera>
It is, I can recommend organising something similar.
<jackdaniel>
asdf-gamedev extension, voila - problem solved!
<Shinmera>
Heh. Unfortunately my road for gamedev build systems is to write something entirely separate.
<Shinmera>
Which I will continue next year
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<NotThatRPG>
McCLIM question: I would like to be able to display the state of a (trivial) boardgame. To do so, I would display a background image, and would like to be able to slap smaller foreground images (the pieces) on top of it, and be able to move and remove these foreground images. I'm trying to remember what I knew of McCLIM, and wasn't sure whether this would be easy to do there
<jackdaniel>
NotThatRPG: I've written an example "checkers", it is available in examples
<jackdaniel>
with drag and drop etc
<NotThatRPG>
@jackdaniel: Brilliant! Thanks!!!
<jackdaniel>
sure
<jackdaniel>
there are probably better ways to write this, but it works, and even validates moves
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<jackdaniel>
you are mostly interested in forms starting with (define-presentation-method present ...)
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<NotThatRPG>
Quick follow-up: this uses a rectangular grid. Can McCLIM (relatively) easily do other tesselations? The board I am trying to display uses hexagons (for smoother discrete diagonal movement). This isn't a requirement, since I have a background image and can just draw over that.
<jackdaniel>
you will have to position hexagons yourself (like you need to position "squares")
<jackdaniel>
is this what you ask about or did I misunderstood?
<jackdaniel>
drawing a hexagon is easy, making a refined position test is also trivial
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<NotThatRPG>
@jackdaniel: Yes, I was wondering if generating a tesselated grid of hexes would be easy or not...
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<Guest268987>
Hello
<Guest268987>
So it's all good, I can make-array, aref, but somehow "aset" is undefined ... what could be wrong?
<Guest268987>
I am running SLIME under emacs, and was reading about arrays/vectors.
<White_Flame>
(setf (aref ...) 3)
<White_Flame>
a "place" in CL lingo is something you can not only read but SETF into
<Guest268987>
hmmmmm okey I must have mixed up common lisp and emacs lisp ...
<White_Flame>
depending on what you've seen so far
<White_Flame>
ah, if elisp has aset, then yeah
<Guest268987>
yup that's it
<Guest268987>
okey thank you
<White_Flame>
yw
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<Guest268987>
I am not sure to understand. I hit "slime-compile-and-load-file (C-c C-k) " on my test-file.lisp, and I get "compilation finished in 0:00:00.008" back in *slime-repl sbcl*. However, trying to use anything defined in my file within the repl, leads to unbound variable and undefined ...
<Guest268987>
I literally need to copy-paste definitions for them to work in repl
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<pjb>
Guest268987: you need also to load the compiled file, and if you defined a package and all your function are bound in that package, you need to switch to that package, or use it in the current package.
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<pjb>
(in-package :foo) or (use-package :foo)
<Guest268987>
ohhhhhh
<Guest268987>
thank you
<pjb>
in the package you will have direct access to all the definitions; using it you will have access tot he exported symbols.
<Guest268987>
it works
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<Guest268987>
i somehow assumed it would use-package automatically ..
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<pjb>
Guest268987: it would be difficult to do use-package automatically because of possible name collisions.
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<emacs-dwim>
Guest268987: Working at the repl, you can set the default package to your choice. (I think it was (kbd ", ! p") at the repl in slime.) There are frequently many packages in use, so it's not obvious which would be set as the default other than :cl-user. But more often I use slime/sly to evaluate forms directly from the source files as I write them. (kbd "C-x C-e") sly-eval-last-expression - or slime-eval-last-expression. This uses th
<emacs-dwim>
most recent previous (in-package ā¦) in that source file as the default package.
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<Guest268987>
thanks you all for information
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<thuna`>
How do I ensure CLOSE doesn't delete the file on abort?
<phoe>
don't use WITH-OPEN-FILE
<phoe>
instead OPEN over UNWIND-PROTECT and CLOSE inside it manually
<thuna`>
"The stream is closed (if necessary). If abort is true and the stream is an output file stream, its associated file might be deleted."?
<thuna`>
Oh, I see what you mean
<thuna`>
But that doesn't really answer the question
<phoe>
oh wait
<phoe>
use CLOSE with an explicit :ABORT NIL or the implicit default value?
<thuna`>
Right, that's what I was thinking you were suggesting (and it /would/ work), but that's just "don't get into that situation". Is there not a way to do it normally?
<mfiano>
using OPEN and CLOSE directly is not considered very normal
<phoe>
what do you mean by "normally"?
<phoe>
(CLOSE ... :ABORT NIL) is the ANSI-standardized way of performing what you mean
<phoe>
I can't imagine anything more "normal" than that
<thuna`>
But then what's the point of abort?
<thuna`>
Hmm
<thuna`>
Ah
<phoe>
if OPEN had created a file, CLOSE :ABORT T will try to delete it
<thuna`>
The side effects say file might be deleted so I figured that wasn't it's purpose. My bad
<phoe>
actually that's exactly its purpose
<thuna`>
Yeah, I skimmed over that part so I missed it
<thuna`>
Anyway, I wasn't using with-open-file apparently anyway so that's not an issue here luckily
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<thuna`>
Oh! Since when does sbcl have type checking for classes?
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<thuna`>
Nope, it's only for initarg. Sigh. Better than nothing, at least
<thuna`>
initform*
<phoe>
thuna`: (safety 3) gives you checks for slot assignments too
<thuna`>
phoe: Is that new?
<mfiano>
Yes, that was a big thing about a year ago, when much of Quicklisp dist broke :)
<thuna`>
Cool
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<thuna`>
So, mush of Quicklisp dist was bugged? :)
<thuna`>
much*
<mfiano>
Pretty much. That or their users were using it wrong.
<mfiano>
We actually got a lot of good software fixed by SBCL's eager correctness changes and Xach's awesome work trying to build everything in isolation (which surely takes more time than not being isolated).
<Josh_2>
Default safety settings in SBCL means that slot type checks are disabled by default