jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<aeth> nij-: no, but you might want to look into uiop:launch-program (and the older uiop:run-program) or similar frunctions from other libraries
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<euouae> with :depends-on ((:version "asdf" "3.1.2")), does ASDF require pinned version 3.1.2 or also anything above it?
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<euouae> hmm, sucks that sbcl ships with an asdf that is older than 3.4 because I can't use :local-nicknames in define-package
<beach> What is the advantage of DEFINE-PACKAGE over DEFPACKAGE?
<euouae> Purportedly nicer for live testing and some symbol reexport issues
<euouae> but I tested with defpackage, neither works on sbcl 2.2.9
<beach> Sure it does.
<euouae> beach, <https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/doc/best_practices.md#package-inferred-system> details some advantages of define-package
<ixelp> asdf/best_practices.md at master · fare/asdf · GitHub
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<beach> SBCL has had local nicknames for quite a while.
<euouae> Ah sorry, what I mean is that the old ASDF version doesn't pick up on it
<euouae> with :class :package-inferred-system
<beach> "pick up on it"?
<beach> euouae: Well, every time I ask about the advantages of package-inferred system, I get a set of workarounds so that all code of a package doesn't have to be in a single file. I still have not heard any convincing argument in favor of package-inferred systems.
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<euouae> I thought the main advantage was ease of loading isolated packages for live testing
<beach> I guess for a code base that is just a few hundred lines of code, it may be practical.
<beach> Packages are not loaded. They are created.
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<euouae> That's parenthetical.
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<euouae> Do you have anything to add or am I waiting in vain?
<beach> Oh, sorry! No, I don't think I have anything to add.
<euouae> So there's no contest to the advantage of it?
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<beach> For my own projects, I see only disadvantages, and when I ask about it, I get suggestions for workarounds that would make my code much worse. But I can't say more about it, because, for this reason, I haven't looked into it in more detail.
<jackdaniel> well, if you keep everything in a single package and in a single file, then writing (defsystem "foo" :components ((:file 'foo"))) is not that much work, is it?
<hayley> Somewhat recently I mentioned the use of "destructor" as a term used in category theory, similar to "reader" in CLOS. It appears the term is also popular in theorem proving, but with somewhat different use.
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<euouae> beach, I'm pointing to what I think the advantage is
<euouae> It's this: loading isolated packages for live testing
<hayley> To prove (and A B) one "destructs" the AND form, and then proves A and B. We take apart the structure, but the result is different; destructing provides us with all slot values, whereas a reader provides just one.
<euouae> so if your project is large and has many components, you can selectively load whichever you'd like. it's more modular
<beach> euouae: Sure, but I couldn't understand what that means. I don't know what an "isolated package" is, nor what loading one means.
<beach> ... nor "live testing" for that matter.
<euouae> I'm sure you don't
<euouae> It's not just this IRC thing where you pretend you don't understand
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<beach> I am afraid I am not pretending. Sorry for being so dense. But don't feel you have to try to explain it.
<phoe> minion: memo for euouae: you can upgrade to a newer ASDF seamlessly, ASDF does a lot of testing to ensure upgrades like that
<minion> Remembered. I'll tell euouae when he/she/it next speaks.
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<phoe> minion: memo for euouae: download a new asdf version or clone the git repo (without submodules), put it in your local projects, (asdf:load-system :asdf) at the start of your image, and you are no longer dependent on what SBCL ships
<minion> Remembered. I'll tell euouae when he/she/it next speaks.
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<pjb> for large projects, one can define several systems to be able to load them separately, and an umbrella system to load them all at once.
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<splittist> I think that's where I'm going: docxplora, docxplora/utils, docxplora/opc, docxplora/wml, docxplora/sml ...
<splittist> (I forgot docxplora/ooxml)
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<jackdaniel> phoe: did I mention that I really really appreciate your library lorem-ipsum? it's one of these small things that make my life easier on occasion
<phoe> jackdaniel: you haven't, but glad to hear this :D
<phoe> oh goodness, I forgot that I used an explicit TAGBODY for the state machine in there
<jackdaniel> what's wrong with tagbody?
<phoe> nothing, I just remembered some discussions about it recently
<jackdaniel> would a macro (defmacro nicer-tagbody (&rest args) `(tagbody ,@args)) make it less bad?
<phoe> especially https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/yhu9e6/is_it_just_me_or_is_tagbody_freaking_awesome/ which put it in a surprisingly positive light
<ixelp> Is it just me, or is tagbody freaking awesome. : lisp
<jackdaniel> prog is an ultimate common lisp programmer secret weapon; it must be secret because when you mention it people tend to bash your programming style
<phoe> if anything, I could save a line by folding LET + TAGBODY into a PROG
<phoe> oh yes
<phoe> right
<jackdaniel> (but they don't have issue with format strings "!#$%FAD~/asdf/~a", no, these are completely fine)
<hayley> Dijkstra wrote about structured programming or something. Years after,, I put on some prog for a friend who doesn't program, and in the solo he complained there was no structure and it was just noise.
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<hayley> Think there is some correlation here.
<jackdaniel> let's call it a formless style, like in kung fu panda ,)
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<splittist> If anyone needs to replace all the text in a word document with lorem ipsum https://github.com/splittist/loremizer (I am perhaps the only person for whom this is useful)
<ixelp> GitHub - splittist/loremizer: Replace the text of Microsoft Word documents with lorem ipsum text
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<Josh_2> yitzi: Thanks. I have no idea why it wont build then :(
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<phoe> splittist: nice
<phoe> Josh_2: have you posted the repl output and error somewhere?
<Josh_2> Yes
<ixelp> Cannot Build · Issue #13 · soemraws/cl-libusb · GitHub
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<phoe> Josh_2: what is your OS?
<Josh_2> Linux
<phoe> which distribution?
<Josh_2> Gentoo
<phoe> `emerge dev-libs/libusb-compat`?
<Josh_2> wow
<Josh_2> I had installed dev-libs/libusb :facepalm:
<Josh_2> Hours of time :joy:
<Josh_2> It worked now
<phoe> googling "gentoo usb.h missing" led me to https://github.com/PaulStoffregen/teensy_loader_cli/pull/31/files
<ixelp> In teensy_loader_cli.c, adding libusb0.1 install instructions for var… by neonsoftware · Pull Request #31 · PaulStoffreg [...]
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<Josh_2> How annoying.. I googled usb.h missing but not for my distro specifically
<phoe> when having linux questions, adding your distro name in front of every google query is very beneficial
<phoe> (especially if you aren't using debian or its derivatives)
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<Josh_2> I guess I can now spend the day messing with libusb rather than doing what I should be :joy:
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<AadVersteden[m]> *no-defun-allowed*: does one-more-re-nightmare have a lisply syntax also? I'd like to convert a bunch of regular expressions for a benchmark and the string syntax is challenging me a bit.
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<hayley> I never got around to making one, sorry.
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<AadVersteden[m]> *no-defun-allowed*: I would also "need" to be able to scan from a particular starting point. You provided me with a hack to only check strings from the start. Is such a thing feasible or super hard?
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<AadVersteden[m]> Thanks for sharing the code either case. I know there's a path towards better perforrmance now.
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<jcowan> design question: For an application I am writing I require four packages to resolve ambiguities (i.e. not just for separation of concerns). The various code files will be IN-PACKAGED to one of these packages, depending on its contents. So I figure to have a single file with four DEFPACKAGE forms and then various LOAD forms for each code file. What I don't know is what IN-PACKAGE to use for this single file.
<jcowan> Should I just let it fall into CL-USER by default?
<beach> I always use COMMON-LISP-USER
<beach> Explicitly.
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<White_Flame> either that, or ignore it and do (cl:defpackage ..) (cl:load ...)
<White_Flame> *ignore the current package
<beach> I guess that would work too.
<phoe> jcowan: I assume you are not using ASDF if you try to explicitly LOAD your code, is this correct?
<White_Flame> I would do CL-USER as well, if it was a separate file. At the top of a file that needs to do something before its in-package, I use CL:
<jcowan> Would it be better to have a single file that does all the LOADs and then another file with all the DEFPACKAGEs?
<jcowan> Obvs either will work, but which is more conventional?
<jcowan> phoe: yes
<White_Flame> personally, I would think they'd fit in the same file
<White_Flame> since it's a very explicit ordering dependency and they're all related to setting up the project
<jcowan> Okay, I'll do that. There will be at most 30 files, probably less.
<phoe> truth be told I'd define a fifth package whose role is to set up the other four ones, and then explicitly IN-PACKAGE into it
<phoe> if I'm setting up code, I prefer to leave CL-USER to actual users of my code
<jcowan> In that case I have to explicitly say CL:IN-PACKAGE, right?
<White_Flame> the 5th package would use CL, presumably
<phoe> ^
<jcowan> Ah, right
<jcowan> Only one of the four packages can actually use CL
<pjb> jcowan: I'd argue that it should be better not to depend on any package there. Use (cl:defpackage …); notably, the cl-user package is implementation dependent (even if you can assume that it uses the CL package, the user may have changed that in the REPL).
<phoe> also if you want to just load files with the package being modified, you should be able to (let ((*package* ...)) (load ...)) instead of IN-PACKAGE
<jcowan> pjb: good point; all I'll need then is cl:defpackage and cl:load explicitly
<jcowan> phoe: I don't want to have to write (cl:let ((cl:*package* ...)) (cl:load ...)); it's too easy to get wrong
<phoe> and either cl:in-package or cl:*package* for changing the current package for cl:load
<phoe> jcowan: understandable, yes
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<Josh_2> Well I'm having no luck with libusb :shrug:
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<thuna`> Is BAR in (- FOO BAR) supposed to be triple-indented? My Slime started to do that for + and -
<thuna`> Like this: https://0x0.st/ogGs.txt
<gilberth> No, BAR is supposed to line up with FOO, my Slime does.
<thuna`> Odd
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<gilberth> What do you get for (somethinglonger foo bar). I mean is it always three spaces? Maybe Slime is confused a little.
<thuna`> No, this only happens with + and -
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<gilberth> Odd, indeed.
<thuna`> Not even * or / do it
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<gilberth> Peek at Emacs' (symbol-plist '+), perhaps some lisp-indent-function or common-lisp-indent-function property is present for some strange reason.
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<thuna`> It doesn't seem to have any *-indent-function properties
<gilberth> More odd. Then perhaps it's a new feature that I am not aware of :)
<Josh_2> Shinmera: Have you written the docs for Trial manually?
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<thuna`> Hmm, nothing in NEWS
<thuna`> Wait, no, slime wasn't built-in, was it
<gilberth> I was not serious.
<thuna`> You never know
<thuna`> Slime's on github? Sigh
<gilberth> Indeed. Anyhow, I am afraid I cannot help you any further. I'd try with a fresh Emacs and otherwise debug Slime.
<thuna`> That's all right, although a fresh Emacs won't solve this, since this has been a thing for a while
<Josh_2> Try sly :sunglasses:
<thuna`> Might do. I was considering switching over for a while
<gilberth> thuna`: That leaves the latter option: Debug.
<thuna`> ...You know, what's an extra space anyways
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<gilberth> Or upgrade to slime-2013-04-05 which is the version I use :-)
<thuna`> Is that the release date?
<gilberth> Yes.
<thuna`> Wow
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<Josh_2> What is this .mess file?
<Josh_2> :(
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<thuna`> WITH-SLOTS worked with structs, right?
<zyni-moe> thuna`: not portably
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<thuna`> zyni-moe: Ah. Do you know which implementations it doesn't work in?
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<aeth> WITH-ACCESSORS is what you want, anyway. Technically, I don't think it's guaranteed, either, but they'd have to go out of the way to not make it a simple SYMBOL-MACROLET
<zyni-moe> thuna`: no idea, sory
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<Josh_2> I am trying to write some docs, my default would be to go straight to spinneret + lass but I would like to have something that someone who doesn't know lisp could write
<Josh_2> any suggestions?
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<Josh_2> There is markless
<Josh_2> perhaps thats the .mess files :O
<Josh_2> :sob:
<Josh_2> I'll just write raw html. Idc :angry:
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<White_Flame> gilberth: huh, good to see you here finally
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<gilberth> White_Flame: Yes, I finally taught my IRC client how to cope with more than one channel. Let's see how long I will survive on #commonlisp before people complain.
* aeth complains
* aeth hopes that /ME support wasn't implemented correctly so these are secret messages
* aeth notes that the logs at https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp have them show up as ACTION, which aeth guesses counts as partial support
<gilberth> aeth: I see you.
* aeth gasps :o
<hayley> @[Aad Versteden] The hack should also work if you provide your own :start. But yes, I may as well make a proper way to try to scan once.
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<thuna`> hayley: What is that mention format
<hayley> A format, I should hope.
<thuna`> ... I mean, can any client use it?
<hayley> Probably not a good idea.
<White_Flame> normally it's just the nick, not any other adornment that clients highlight
<phoe> gilberth: nice
<phoe> thuna`: WITH-SLOTS works with structs across all contemporary implementations
<thuna`> phoe: Perfect
<thuna`> What's everyone's opinions on the structure of this code? Disregard how it's going to be implemented, I just want to know if it looks like something you would be ok working with. https://0x0.st/ogki.txt
<phoe> thuna`: this looks kinda like LISP-BINARY or BINARY-TYPES
<ixelp> binary-types/example.lisp at 9ec42042a50403961c08179a892ae3de725b1d7a · frodef/binary-types · GitHub
<ixelp> lisp-binary/doom-wad.lisp at 711c38c2d9862bec7b83c8bf42823dd3985dc517 · j3pic/lisp-binary · GitHub
<thuna`> phoe: It is something like that, although I didn't take much inspiration from them
<thuna`> (As in, I just learned they were a thing)
<phoe> :D
<phoe> discoverability is kind of a big problem in the lisp world
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<White_Flame> here's my version of that sort of thing, unreleased of course :-P https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/3505#3505
<Josh_2> I could make a PR with the eventX binary format :sunglasses:
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<Josh_2> Doesn't dependon on nibbles :(
<Josh_2> Nibbles seems like the perfect dependency
<Josh_2> phoe: the recommended libraries @ https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl is very useful :sunglasses:
<ixelp> GitHub - CodyReichert/awesome-cl: A curated list of awesome Common Lisp frameworks, libraries and other shiny stuff.
<phoe> Josh_2: yes
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<Josh_2> I think there is space for an *extremely* opinionated version
<thuna`> recommended "recommended libraries" library
<Josh_2> nay
<thuna`> My biggest issue with my binary recipes is figuring out what's normal lisp code and what's a recipe
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<thuna`> The :integer type's lambda-list is (LENGTH &KEY (BYTE-ORDER :BIG-ENDIAN) (TYPE :UNSIGNED)) and the only recipe in there is LENGTH, while the rest are evaluated normally.
<thuna`> s/:integer/:string
<thuna`> Wait no, the first one was right
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