<ixelp>
asdf/best_practices.md at master · fare/asdf · GitHub
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<beach>
SBCL has had local nicknames for quite a while.
<euouae>
Ah sorry, what I mean is that the old ASDF version doesn't pick up on it
<euouae>
with :class :package-inferred-system
<beach>
"pick up on it"?
<beach>
euouae: Well, every time I ask about the advantages of package-inferred system, I get a set of workarounds so that all code of a package doesn't have to be in a single file. I still have not heard any convincing argument in favor of package-inferred systems.
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<euouae>
I thought the main advantage was ease of loading isolated packages for live testing
<beach>
I guess for a code base that is just a few hundred lines of code, it may be practical.
<beach>
Packages are not loaded. They are created.
<euouae>
Do you have anything to add or am I waiting in vain?
<beach>
Oh, sorry! No, I don't think I have anything to add.
<euouae>
So there's no contest to the advantage of it?
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<beach>
For my own projects, I see only disadvantages, and when I ask about it, I get suggestions for workarounds that would make my code much worse. But I can't say more about it, because, for this reason, I haven't looked into it in more detail.
<jackdaniel>
well, if you keep everything in a single package and in a single file, then writing (defsystem "foo" :components ((:file 'foo"))) is not that much work, is it?
<hayley>
Somewhat recently I mentioned the use of "destructor" as a term used in category theory, similar to "reader" in CLOS. It appears the term is also popular in theorem proving, but with somewhat different use.
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<euouae>
beach, I'm pointing to what I think the advantage is
<euouae>
It's this: loading isolated packages for live testing
<hayley>
To prove (and A B) one "destructs" the AND form, and then proves A and B. We take apart the structure, but the result is different; destructing provides us with all slot values, whereas a reader provides just one.
<euouae>
so if your project is large and has many components, you can selectively load whichever you'd like. it's more modular
<beach>
euouae: Sure, but I couldn't understand what that means. I don't know what an "isolated package" is, nor what loading one means.
<beach>
... nor "live testing" for that matter.
<euouae>
I'm sure you don't
<euouae>
It's not just this IRC thing where you pretend you don't understand
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<beach>
I am afraid I am not pretending. Sorry for being so dense. But don't feel you have to try to explain it.
<phoe>
minion: memo for euouae: you can upgrade to a newer ASDF seamlessly, ASDF does a lot of testing to ensure upgrades like that
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell euouae when he/she/it next speaks.
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<phoe>
minion: memo for euouae: download a new asdf version or clone the git repo (without submodules), put it in your local projects, (asdf:load-system :asdf) at the start of your image, and you are no longer dependent on what SBCL ships
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell euouae when he/she/it next speaks.
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<pjb>
for large projects, one can define several systems to be able to load them separately, and an umbrella system to load them all at once.
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<splittist>
I think that's where I'm going: docxplora, docxplora/utils, docxplora/opc, docxplora/wml, docxplora/sml ...
<splittist>
(I forgot docxplora/ooxml)
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<jackdaniel>
phoe: did I mention that I really really appreciate your library lorem-ipsum? it's one of these small things that make my life easier on occasion
<phoe>
jackdaniel: you haven't, but glad to hear this :D
<phoe>
oh goodness, I forgot that I used an explicit TAGBODY for the state machine in there
<jackdaniel>
what's wrong with tagbody?
<phoe>
nothing, I just remembered some discussions about it recently
<jackdaniel>
would a macro (defmacro nicer-tagbody (&rest args) `(tagbody ,@args)) make it less bad?
<ixelp>
Is it just me, or is tagbody freaking awesome. : lisp
<jackdaniel>
prog is an ultimate common lisp programmer secret weapon; it must be secret because when you mention it people tend to bash your programming style
<phoe>
if anything, I could save a line by folding LET + TAGBODY into a PROG
<phoe>
oh yes
<phoe>
right
<jackdaniel>
(but they don't have issue with format strings "!#$%FAD~/asdf/~a", no, these are completely fine)
<hayley>
Dijkstra wrote about structured programming or something. Years after,, I put on some prog for a friend who doesn't program, and in the solo he complained there was no structure and it was just noise.
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<hayley>
Think there is some correlation here.
<jackdaniel>
let's call it a formless style, like in kung fu panda ,)
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<splittist>
If anyone needs to replace all the text in a word document with lorem ipsum https://github.com/splittist/loremizer (I am perhaps the only person for whom this is useful)
<ixelp>
GitHub - splittist/loremizer: Replace the text of Microsoft Word documents with lorem ipsum text
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<Josh_2>
yitzi: Thanks. I have no idea why it wont build then :(
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<phoe>
splittist: nice
<phoe>
Josh_2: have you posted the repl output and error somewhere?
<ixelp>
In teensy_loader_cli.c, adding libusb0.1 install instructions for var… by neonsoftware · Pull Request #31 · PaulStoffreg [...]
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<Josh_2>
How annoying.. I googled usb.h missing but not for my distro specifically
<phoe>
when having linux questions, adding your distro name in front of every google query is very beneficial
<phoe>
(especially if you aren't using debian or its derivatives)
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<Josh_2>
I guess I can now spend the day messing with libusb rather than doing what I should be :joy:
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<AadVersteden[m]>
*no-defun-allowed*: does one-more-re-nightmare have a lisply syntax also? I'd like to convert a bunch of regular expressions for a benchmark and the string syntax is challenging me a bit.
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<hayley>
I never got around to making one, sorry.
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<AadVersteden[m]>
*no-defun-allowed*: I would also "need" to be able to scan from a particular starting point. You provided me with a hack to only check strings from the start. Is such a thing feasible or super hard?
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<AadVersteden[m]>
Thanks for sharing the code either case. I know there's a path towards better perforrmance now.
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<jcowan>
design question: For an application I am writing I require four packages to resolve ambiguities (i.e. not just for separation of concerns). The various code files will be IN-PACKAGED to one of these packages, depending on its contents. So I figure to have a single file with four DEFPACKAGE forms and then various LOAD forms for each code file. What I don't know is what IN-PACKAGE to use for this single file.
<jcowan>
Should I just let it fall into CL-USER by default?
<beach>
I always use COMMON-LISP-USER
<beach>
Explicitly.
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<White_Flame>
either that, or ignore it and do (cl:defpackage ..) (cl:load ...)
<White_Flame>
*ignore the current package
<beach>
I guess that would work too.
<phoe>
jcowan: I assume you are not using ASDF if you try to explicitly LOAD your code, is this correct?
<White_Flame>
I would do CL-USER as well, if it was a separate file. At the top of a file that needs to do something before its in-package, I use CL:
<jcowan>
Would it be better to have a single file that does all the LOADs and then another file with all the DEFPACKAGEs?
<jcowan>
Obvs either will work, but which is more conventional?
<jcowan>
phoe: yes
<White_Flame>
personally, I would think they'd fit in the same file
<White_Flame>
since it's a very explicit ordering dependency and they're all related to setting up the project
<jcowan>
Okay, I'll do that. There will be at most 30 files, probably less.
<phoe>
truth be told I'd define a fifth package whose role is to set up the other four ones, and then explicitly IN-PACKAGE into it
<phoe>
if I'm setting up code, I prefer to leave CL-USER to actual users of my code
<jcowan>
In that case I have to explicitly say CL:IN-PACKAGE, right?
<White_Flame>
the 5th package would use CL, presumably
<phoe>
^
<jcowan>
Ah, right
<jcowan>
Only one of the four packages can actually use CL
<pjb>
jcowan: I'd argue that it should be better not to depend on any package there. Use (cl:defpackage …); notably, the cl-user package is implementation dependent (even if you can assume that it uses the CL package, the user may have changed that in the REPL).
<phoe>
also if you want to just load files with the package being modified, you should be able to (let ((*package* ...)) (load ...)) instead of IN-PACKAGE
<jcowan>
pjb: good point; all I'll need then is cl:defpackage and cl:load explicitly
<jcowan>
phoe: I don't want to have to write (cl:let ((cl:*package* ...)) (cl:load ...)); it's too easy to get wrong
<phoe>
and either cl:in-package or cl:*package* for changing the current package for cl:load
<phoe>
jcowan: understandable, yes
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<Josh_2>
Well I'm having no luck with libusb :shrug:
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<thuna`>
Is BAR in (- FOO BAR) supposed to be triple-indented? My Slime started to do that for + and -
<gilberth>
No, BAR is supposed to line up with FOO, my Slime does.
<thuna`>
Odd
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<gilberth>
What do you get for (somethinglonger foo bar). I mean is it always three spaces? Maybe Slime is confused a little.
<thuna`>
No, this only happens with + and -
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<gilberth>
Odd, indeed.
<thuna`>
Not even * or / do it
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<gilberth>
Peek at Emacs' (symbol-plist '+), perhaps some lisp-indent-function or common-lisp-indent-function property is present for some strange reason.
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<thuna`>
It doesn't seem to have any *-indent-function properties
<gilberth>
More odd. Then perhaps it's a new feature that I am not aware of :)
<Josh_2>
Shinmera: Have you written the docs for Trial manually?
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<thuna`>
Hmm, nothing in NEWS
<thuna`>
Wait, no, slime wasn't built-in, was it
<gilberth>
I was not serious.
<thuna`>
You never know
<thuna`>
Slime's on github? Sigh
<gilberth>
Indeed. Anyhow, I am afraid I cannot help you any further. I'd try with a fresh Emacs and otherwise debug Slime.
<thuna`>
That's all right, although a fresh Emacs won't solve this, since this has been a thing for a while
<Josh_2>
Try sly :sunglasses:
<thuna`>
Might do. I was considering switching over for a while
<gilberth>
thuna`: That leaves the latter option: Debug.
<thuna`>
...You know, what's an extra space anyways
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<gilberth>
Or upgrade to slime-2013-04-05 which is the version I use :-)
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<thuna`>
zyni-moe: Ah. Do you know which implementations it doesn't work in?
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<aeth>
WITH-ACCESSORS is what you want, anyway. Technically, I don't think it's guaranteed, either, but they'd have to go out of the way to not make it a simple SYMBOL-MACROLET
<zyni-moe>
thuna`: no idea, sory
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<Josh_2>
I am trying to write some docs, my default would be to go straight to spinneret + lass but I would like to have something that someone who doesn't know lisp could write
<Josh_2>
any suggestions?
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<Josh_2>
There is markless
<Josh_2>
perhaps thats the .mess files :O
<Josh_2>
:sob:
<Josh_2>
I'll just write raw html. Idc :angry:
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<White_Flame>
gilberth: huh, good to see you here finally
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<gilberth>
White_Flame: Yes, I finally taught my IRC client how to cope with more than one channel. Let's see how long I will survive on #commonlisp before people complain.
* aeth
complains
* aeth
hopes that /ME support wasn't implemented correctly so these are secret messages
<hayley>
@[Aad Versteden] The hack should also work if you provide your own :start. But yes, I may as well make a proper way to try to scan once.
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<thuna`>
hayley: What is that mention format
<hayley>
A format, I should hope.
<thuna`>
... I mean, can any client use it?
<hayley>
Probably not a good idea.
<White_Flame>
normally it's just the nick, not any other adornment that clients highlight
<phoe>
gilberth: nice
<phoe>
thuna`: WITH-SLOTS works with structs across all contemporary implementations
<thuna`>
phoe: Perfect
<thuna`>
What's everyone's opinions on the structure of this code? Disregard how it's going to be implemented, I just want to know if it looks like something you would be ok working with. https://0x0.st/ogki.txt
<phoe>
thuna`: this looks kinda like LISP-BINARY or BINARY-TYPES
<thuna`>
My biggest issue with my binary recipes is figuring out what's normal lisp code and what's a recipe
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<thuna`>
The :integer type's lambda-list is (LENGTH &KEY (BYTE-ORDER :BIG-ENDIAN) (TYPE :UNSIGNED)) and the only recipe in there is LENGTH, while the rest are evaluated normally.