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<jcowan>
kagevf: Ah, thanks.
<jcowan>
So only distantly related to McCarthy's Elephant.
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<gendl>
Hi does anyone know how, in a typical CL, we could implement a file watch watch capability, Whereby some function will be triggered when it's detected that a file has changed on disk.
<gendl>
I could imagine a background thread which sleeps and wakes every 10 seconds and checks the file but that sounds kind of inefficient - node has a --watch flag where the command reacts instantaneously to file changes — But I can't believe they are doing busy waiting or even sleep & wake loop... are they?
<gendl>
My only issue with Shinmera's libraries are they are written with a case convention that breaks modern-mode allegro and the author has stated that on principle he would refuse fixes for same (He doesn't see them as fixes of course) And so if I want to use the libraries I have to fork them and maintain my own fork
<Shinmera>
or you could just, you know, not load libraries with modern mode active. as it should be done, anyway.
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<gendl>
Modern mode isn't something you can activate and deactivate in the same image.
<Shinmera>
oh? Sounds like an extra-bad feature then
<gendl>
once you're in modern mode all CL symbols are lowercase.
<gendl>
All that's required is for a library to be consistent in its use of case
<gendl>
e.g. using t not T
<Shinmera>
It is consistent. All constants are all uppercase.
<gendl>
when the rest of your sources are lowercase
<semz>
wouldn't any kind of symbol generation like (intern (concatenate 'string "FOO-" name)) also break it?
<Shinmera>
anything that assumes uppercase for any reason would be broken, yes.
<Shinmera>
which, in general, is why changing default values is a bad idea.
<gendl>
The intern example above would not per se break it, But you would end up with a symbol exactly as you created maybe upper case maybe lower case maybe mixed case
<jackdaniel>
shouldn't intern take the string as it is? (i.e disregarding modern or normal mode)
<jackdaniel>
read is another story (read-case et al)
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<smlckz>
is there a system of common lisp standard library reference in the manner of man pages?
<gendl>
Which I think is the same behavior in ansi mode depending on how you construct the symbol
<Shinmera>
what does that mean?
<pjb>
smlckz: gcl distributed a copy in info format.
<pjb>
smlckz: there's the hyperspec.
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<gendl>
Anyway most of what I'm doing these days is not modern mode stuff so I can try shinmera's libraries there. Then try porting to modern mode if and when that seems to make sense.
<smlckz>
pjb: hmm
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<pjb>
smlckz: you can use M-x slime-hyperspec-lookup RET car RET
<pjb>
smlckz: note: you can download the hyperspec and configure slime for a local lookup.
<pjb>
jackdaniel: it does.
<jackdaniel>
OK, thanks for confirmation
<pjb>
jackdaniel: the question is (intern (concatenate 'string "FOO-" name)) vs (intern (concatenate 'string "foo-" name))
<jackdaniel>
then the question is lost on me, one will give a symbol with a name "FOO-/something" and another with a name "foo-/something/"
<pjb>
jackdaniel: but in modern mode, I guess (intern (concatenate 'string "FOO-" name)) would or should give |foo-/something/|
<smlckz>
pjb: how can i do that?
<pjb>
smlckz: some distributions have a hyperspec package, or you can download the tarball from lispworks site.
<jackdaniel>
pjb: that doesn't make sense though? because you deliberely supplly the symbol name?
<jackdaniel>
well, either way, I'm not that much interested; pjb: thanks for indulging me
<pjb>
smlckz: and you can configure the common-lisp-hyperspec-root variable.
<pjb>
jackdaniel: modern mode is not interesting.
<gendl>
Modern mode has a case sensitive readable (which by itself doesn't violate ansi) but then all CL symbols are interned in lowercase. And that last part violates ansi just a tiny bit.
<gendl>
And that's why T instead of t will fail.
<gendl>
It reads T case-sensitively and that does not match the Lisp's idea of t which is lowercase.
<gendl>
case sensitive readtable*
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<Josh_2>
How do I leave a message for someone when they rejoin?
<gendl>
So.. either port the Shinmeraware to work on modern mode.. or port the few modern mode apps I'm supporting off modern mode. That latter is sounding like it might make sense.
<gendl>
I remember how mad Erik Naggum got at Franz when they released modern-mode. After he'd loved them so much.
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<gendl>
Readable-case :invert gives most of the benefits of modern mode w/o running afoul of ansi.
<gendl>
And Dropping modern mode from our builds would cut allegro-based build times in half.
<gendl>
I think I was talked into modern mode back in the day without real good reason (it was not someone at franz). I think modern mode made some internal stuff Franz was doing more convenient for them, so since thay had it they said what the hey let's release it people might like it. Bit I don't think they've ever heavily promoted it.
<Bike>
::notify Josh_2 this should work
<Colleen>
Bike: Got it. I'll let Josh_2 know as soon as possible.
* jcowan
thinks "modern mode" should be called "Scheme mode" :-)
<jcowan>
(not all Schemes are case-sensitive, but most are)
<jackdaniel>
is there a scheme implementation called schism? files would have an extension .ism
<jackdaniel>
indeed there is! :) sorry for the offtopic
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<mathrick>
<gendl> Readable-case :invert gives most of the benefits of modern mode w/o running afoul of ansi. <-- Shinmera's code will break with :invert too
<mathrick>
because of T
<gendl>
Yes but at least one can arrange to change readtable case back to default when compiling/loading shinmeraware. Modern mode is a whole separate image.
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<mathrick>
Bike: argh, this is really not fun to debug, but I don't think I can stop, cause it breaks in more ways than I thought originally. Current status: seems that threads are involved, but not all threads. Just loading Verbose or cl-async is enough to break it, but creating a thread pool with 48 threads is fine. I'm now thinking that the weird persistent behaviour is not actually related to anything being saved in FASLs, but to whether the compiler is
<mathrick>
invoked
<mathrick>
if I have two consecutive calls to the function that explodes after a change to its code is made, the first one works, but the second one sees the corruption
<mathrick>
gendl: oh, I didn't realise they made it so complicated
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<Bike>
in situations like this i usually assume i've angered a witch, or possibly a congregation of gremlins
<Bike>
i think aeth mentioned a while back that you could be modifying a literal by accident- that is the kind of thing that could result in weird crap like that, so i'd be on the lookout
<mathrick>
gendl: also, if you come up with an automated way to compile shinmeraware / other stuff that doesn't play well with atypical readtable-case, I want a copy. I've given up on :invert in the past because of that
<mathrick>
Bike: yeah, I'm gonna scan the code for anything that could be running afoul that
<mathrick>
although I thought modern SBCL allocated literals in the read-only segments, so it shouldn't even be possible to modify them
<gendl>
mathrick: ok I will keep that in mind.
<gendl>
Yes modern mode needs to be a separate image because built in CL official symbols are all literally in lowercase. That's the ansi violation.
<mathrick>
that would also fix all the libraries out there that do (intern "FOO")
<mathrick>
gendl: oh yeah, that's stupid
<mathrick>
they could get the exact same result with :invert and much less hassle
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<gendl>
mathrick: cause :invert still reads mixed-case symbols in a case-preserving way, right?
<mathrick>
correct
<Bike>
it could also be load-time-value or something, i guess. but that's a lot less common
<mathrick>
gendl: :invert will invert if it's single case, or preserve if mixed
<mathrick>
Bike: oh, because LOAD-TIME-VALUE will be evaluated if the compiler is active, but loaded from saved value otherwise?
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<Bike>
it can maintain state in somewhat surprising ways
<mathrick>
yeah, I was looking at the spec the other day, but it's one of the corners of the language I really don't understand well
<mathrick>
I'm not 100% when LOAD-TIME-VALUE is useful TBH
<Bike>
like, you can do (defun inc () (incf (car (load-time-value (list 0))))) to make a counter - each call will increment
<mathrick>
ah
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<Bike>
but if you're not using load-time-value maybe that's not relevant
<Bike>
it is, indeed, a pretty obscure operator
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<mathrick>
are there any other literals than '(...) that are easy to modify in a spec-violating way? I don't use any array literals that I'm aware of, and no string modification that I know of either
<mathrick>
I reviewed all the instances of '(...) I could find, and as I thought, they were all in a read-only context because I've learnt my lesson about only using literals when I know what will happen to them back when I started using CL
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<mathrick>
and just in case, I converted them to LIST calls, but no dice
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<Bike>
could be funky #. stuff
<mathrick>
not in my code if so
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<aeth>
could be a '(...) or #(...) or a "..." in your dependencies.
<aeth>
if it works on CLISP in 2006 or whatever, they might not have noticed
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<_death>
modifying a rest list is another
<mathrick>
that's conceivable, but what makes me suspicious is that the thing that reliably makes it break for me is cl-openal + cffi:with-foreign-ptr + Verbose, but Shinmera's code also uses that AFAIK
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<mathrick>
_death: as in (defun foo (&rest args))?
<_death>
yes.. the list then must not be modified
<mathrick>
hmmm, I do have a custom Trivia pattern that works around the fact that '(foo 42) matches (name (&rest args)), but I don't think it could result in anything being modified
<_death>
(the cons cells)
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<mathrick>
at this point, I just want to find a reasonably small repro case I could submit for smarter people than me to look at, and also a workaround so I can move forward and work on what I'm actually trying to do
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<Shinmera>
mathrick: I don't use openal.
<Shinmera>
but I do use Verbose, obviously.
<mathrick>
Shinmera: ah. Has Trial ever used openal, either directly or through Harmony?
<Shinmera>
no
<Shinmera>
an openal backend for cl-mixed is on the todo, but I don't need it, because I already interface directly with the operating system APIs, which the other wrappers like openal ultimately do, too, anyway
<Shinmera>
so there's no benefit to using them, really.
<mathrick>
aight. I guess I'll just port my code to Harmony and see if that unblocks me
<mathrick>
cause ultimately I don't care about openal either
<Shinmera>
if you just want the output, you can just use the output parts of cl-mixed.
<mathrick>
yeah
<Shinmera>
the output drains are all written in Lisp.
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<mathrick>
Shinmera: I've used OpenAL enough now to be able to say that it's an extremely poorly-designed API and if you have wrappers already, using it would be a step back, at least for plain output
<Shinmera>
I guess. Can't hurt to have more options imo :)
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<Shinmera>
I won't invest any time unless I'm tremendously bored
<mathrick>
there's *some* merit to using OpenAL for 3D spatialised audio, but it's just a really bad design
<Josh_2>
::notify lips123mob BKNR doesn't properly handle :initform when modifying class definitions
<Colleen>
Josh_2: Got it. I'll let lips123mob know as soon as possible.
<Shinmera>
libmixed has its own spatial audio system, though I think it's bugged at the moment.
<Shinmera>
Will get to fixing and polishing that whenever I get to preprod for Next Game Project(tm)
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<jcowan>
I suppose you could emulate modern mode with a package modern-cl whose contents are symbols named "car", "cdr", etc and have their definitions copied over.
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<aeth>
too many "FOO"s in code
<aeth>
no library does (symbol-name '#:foo) because it's longer even though it's more correct
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<Colleen>
Josh_2: Bike said 3 hours, 28 minutes ago: this should work
<Josh_2>
hmm to join my libraries into 1 or not
<Josh_2>
ty Bike :sunglasses:
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<Josh_2>
Mergin' libraries into one :sunglasses:
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<Josh_2>
Is a method combination part of a package?
<pjb>
Josh_2: nope. Packages only have symbols. That said, method combinations are named with symbols.
<Josh_2>
If I define a method combination in X and :use X in Y will my method combination be found?
<pjb>
Josh_2: only if you export the name of the method combination from X.
<Josh_2>
Right
<Josh_2>
Nice
<pjb>
But you can also refer the method combination with a qualified symbol: x::my-method-combin
<Josh_2>
Okay no problem
<Josh_2>
Thanks for the help
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<Josh_2>
Where is Xach?
<pjb>
Portland, IIRC.
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