<dbotton>
if someone is honest they will give back their work to the community
<dbotton>
if not no license going to make a difference
<dbotton>
and why now I only write MIT/BSD despite 30 years for GPL programming
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<dbotton>
or whatever number it works out to be
<dbotton>
since my first libs
<aeth>
more like, the GPL and even the AGPL aren't going to stop Amazon or Google from turning it into SaaS in their clouds.
<aeth>
you can't really force them to give back
<hayley>
The best strategy is to write software that they can't benefit from. Though that sucks if you want something they would benefit from, too.
<jeosol>
aeth: you say it's better to use DECLARE over DECLAIM FTYPE except if we need to specify the return type. Are there gains/optimizations if we specify the return type? I would image there is.
<aeth>
I think the main advantage is that you'd check your own assumptions (via the compiler) about what you actually return
<jeosol>
aeth: I see. Thanks for that. Much appreciated.
<jeosol>
you have been of great help in my benchmarking and optimization tests. I like where the metrics are so far. Latest metrics using SBCL v2.2.8
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<aeth>
but the optimization potential is less than you think because Common Lisp can only portably optimize within the file (e.g. C-c C-k in SLIME or ASDF/quicklisp loading a file)
<jeosol>
I have a bottle neck right now, I rely on an old commercial fortran legacy exe that I run with "wine ...", haha. Eventually, I want to rewrite part of the code in CL
<aeth>
there is a Fortran->CL compiler (I think Maxima uses it?) but it is very old and the generated code isn't very friendly to SBCL's optimizations so it leaves a lot of performance on the table
<jeosol>
aeth: I remember seeing that block compilation thing. It was in the context of a bazelisp post by a google engineer, where they updated code to take advantage or use block compilation
<jeosol>
aeth: I don't have the source codes, only the exe.
<jeosol>
I just have the equations, the finite difference equations that I have to code up and check my solutions. It's a commercial executable that has a license restriction
<jeosol>
There is an older, hacked version on the web which is what I use so far. Ideally, I will recode parts of that in CL if I am able to proof concept. But it's a huge effort to do as I can't dream of replicating the commercial application. It takes many man years.
<jeosol>
I am convinced that SBCL's performance number crunching applications, less surprises and very stable
<aeth>
hayley: right, can't blame people for not writing SBCL optimizations when it predates it. But it doesn't generate good code to take advantage of SBCL (which is the current go-to numerical CL)
<jeosol>
hayley: nice find. Thanks for sharing
<aeth>
just like something written for SBCL in 2022 might not be ideal in 2040 on whatever we use then
<hayley>
SBCL 4.0.0
<jeosol>
aeth: it' will be interesting to see ...
<jeosol>
18 years
<aeth>
hayley: oh, cool, maybe Fedora will finally update their version of `sbcl` if the version bumps to 4.0
<dbotton>
SBCL 4.0 I be will still run CL code from today :) I doubt most compilers can say that they will be able to
<dbotton>
can not
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<jeosol>
dbotton: good point.
<jeosol>
I think people don't appreciate enough the stability of going from one compiler version to next, with little or no issues (speaking of SBCL, I can't speak to the others)
<aeth>
dbotton: yeah, the real question is if it will run well (although some code will break... if you use sb-ext or whatever... even on future SBCLs... but that's on you)
<jeosol>
aeth: I currently use some sb-ext, but I think it's minimal
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<mathrick>
is this an SBCL bug?
<mathrick>
(destructuring-bind (foo (bar) baz) '(1 2 3)) => Error while parsing arguments to DESTRUCTURING-BIND: invalid number of elements in 2 to satisfy lambda list (BAR)
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<White_Flame>
mathrick: I don't see a problem
<White_Flame>
(a &rest r) × (1 . 2) => r = 2
<White_Flame>
taking the cdr of both, (&rest r) × 2 => r = 2
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<aeth>
White_Flame: and in fact in many (most?) Schemes, '( . 2) => 2 so this behavior is mainly surprising in CL because '( . 2) isn't valid CL (as well as similar things like (nthcdr 0 2))
<aeth>
especially since d-b tends to be the strict one
<White_Flame>
and of course destructuring (&rest foo) is an identity operation
<aeth>
I usually use DESTRUCTURING-BIND inside of LOOP instead of using LOOP's own destructuring because I can (usually!) rely on D-B to handle invalid forms (or, rather, to not handle them)
<White_Flame>
while it seems to require a list check, that dotted case means it really can be any type
<White_Flame>
right, same here
<aeth>
Anyway, my point is that it's the *inconsistency* with '( . 2) and (nthcdr 0 2) which both could be accepted (and most Scheme accept the first) but are both errors in CL that's bothersome. All things are arbitrary.
<aeth>
probably a few other alternative ways to express it, but they're probably all errors in CL
<aeth>
It is, however, not very useful (unless generated? but it's not like (+) is very useful, either)
<aeth>
most people are just going to say a instead of (&rest a)
<aeth>
(And it looks like '( . 2) => 2 is far from mandatory in Scheme. Guile seems to be the main one that supports it. Most follow CL and error, including the Scheme reader I wrote in CL (which chose to do that for obvious reasons))
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<dre>
gosh darn it
<dre>
do i just need to get onto emacs and sly already
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<beach>
dre: For Common Lisp programming? What are you using at the moment?
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<dre>
neovim and conjure, I'm working on improving the neovim -> sly interactions
<dre>
but it's just bigger and bigger yaks. and I want to move on to some CL projects I guess.
<dre>
I dunno I'm just complaining cause I like the sound of my own voice
<dre>
sorry to bother
<beach>
I don't think you are bothering anyone.
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<contrapunctus>
dre: that's some important work, since a significant number of people do not like Emacs.
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<dre>
:P
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<Shinmera>
Was just talking about this on the Lisp discord yesterday, but I would *very* much appreciate if anyone was willing to work on an alternate key scheme for Portacle, which provides the default keys for copy/paste/undo/redo/etc, and moves the impeded keys to sensible other regions. I think the non-standard keys are 90% of the trouble for new people.
<Shinmera>
Could make that scheme selectable similar to how we let the user choose between Slime and Sly right now.
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<dre>
what's the lisp discord? can I get an invite?
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<paule32>
hello
<paule32>
i have a 7408 Quad 2 input AND gate
<paule32>
8 inputs
<paule32>
4 outputs
<paule32>
how can i return these 4 outputs as pair ?
<paule32>
also, in the circuit are 4 components
<paule32>
each of them have 2 inputs, and one output
<paule32>
can lisp handle two results at the same time ?
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<flip214>
paule32: you can easily return a list of 4 CONSes (each CONS being a PAIR); better use structures or classes, though. For your second question, see VALUES
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<paule32>
thx
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<paule32>
hello
<paule32>
how can i (defun a function, that stands for Input(1, x), Input(2, x), Input(3, x), ....
<paule32>
where x is a component
<paule32>
Input 1,2,3 stands for the input
<paule32>
ports
<paule32>
or better asked:
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<paule32>
how can i use a (defun XORg(X1)) where X1 stands for a XORgate with 2 inputs
<paule32>
is that the same as: (defun Xorg(X1) (lambda(x) (setf x XORgate 1 1))
<paule32>
?
<paule32>
ah okay, self answerd
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<nij->
Is there a package manager in CL that assigns a uuid (like in julia) to each project for reproducible builds?
<nij->
In that case, we don't have to check that things build every month (or every 5 minutes).
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<paule32>
i would point to lines: 252, ...
<jcowan>
aeth: My local docker installation is borked today, or I'd check for you, but I'm willing to bet that few Schemes other than Guile will accept '( . 2) => 2
<paule32>
is (first F1) okay ?
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<jcowan>
What is F1?
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<paule32>
the part of the adder
<paule32>
maybe i should be name it Result
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<Shinmera>
nij-: You can use the hash that quicklisp delivers for the package contents.
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<contrapunctus>
Shinmera: sounds like you want `cua-mode`
<contrapunctus>
(which is part of Emacs)
<Shinmera>
I know about cua-mode, it is not what I want.
<Shinmera>
Or rather, not enough.
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<contrapunctus>
Shinmera: do explain, because you mentioned «copy/paste/undo/redo», and it does bind at least copy, paste, cut, and undo (among other changes of behaviour)
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<Shinmera>
The bindings have to be always active, not only when there's a mark. The lisp relevant stuff from C-c has to be moved elsewhere. Undo behaviour has to be switched to the more common variant, rather than Emacs' default. All of this has to be toggleable in one go.
<contrapunctus>
Okay...I can try this.
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<Shinmera>
Sweet
<contrapunctus>
Shinmera: what's the utility of having the cut/copy bindings enabled without an active region?
<Shinmera>
contrapunctus: consistency and not surprising the user with behaviour they didn't expect.
<Shinmera>
also C-v has to be always active without a mark anyway
<contrapunctus>
Right, C-v behaves that way already, but C-c/C-x don't.
<_death>
so when someone tells the newbie to C-c C-c or C-c C-k or whatever, the newbie can try and fail :)
<Shinmera>
Ime the newbies that would like this mode wouldn't be in a place where people would tell them to do that, and they'd instead look at the help buffer first anyway.
<Shinmera>
But sure if you want to put up strawmen to prevent people from potentially making entry into lisp easier, by all means.
<_death>
sure, may be worth a shot
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<_death>
probably my biggest impact on newbie barriers to entry is me helping them or not
<_death>
so I doubt my opinion about portacle keybindings matters
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<aeth>
It would actually really be nice to bind familiar key bindings in an Emacs under Ctrl+Z, which is obviously unavailable in normal use from a terminal because it's that thing that causes nothing but pain and misery when you accidentally suspend a program and scramble to `fg` (if you do that often enough to remember that it's `fg`). You know, Unix being Unix, putting a foot-shotgun at one of the easiest
<aeth>
key combos to accidentally press.
<aeth>
But in graphical Emacs Ctrl+Z just minimizes, which is even more useless, but fortunately, that gives a "free" prefix while still introducing people to the concept of chording.
<aeth>
Undo would be C-z C-z, copy would be C-z C-c, Paste C-c C-v, etc., etc.
<aeth>
sorry, Paste C-z C-v
<_death>
I have C-z as stumpwm prefix ;)
<aeth>
I use Super-z for that
<aeth>
We had similar thought processes, though.
<aeth>
It's actually a really nice prefix to chording, assuming z is in the bottom left corner (or you use something like SDL's "scancodes" rather than keycodes so combinations are always based on location rather than depending on the layout)
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<mathrick>
the whole "can't suspend so let's do something really stupid instead and hide the window" binding is amazingly useless
<aeth>
mathrick: but it's actually great because now if you wanted to customize Emacs or write your own Emacs, you now have a prime real estate key that you can reuse. There are also some other easy keys that do rare actions that you could repurpose, but C-z must be the best on all counts.
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<aeth>
And I think C-z even used to play the role of C-c or something like that in pre-Unix Emacs.
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<jcowan>
Can you get access to the Windows/Command key and bind that?
<jcowan>
(presumably as `super`)
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<aeth>
jcowan: Emacs seems to recognize 'super' (e.g. shows up as an unknown s-a for Super+A/Win+A) when graphical, and I think some people use it in Emacs, but that seems to be asking for trouble because super is also pretty much the only thing that a DE or WM can safely use for key combinations without conflicting with something that an application uses.
<aeth>
(so the more elaborate ones probably use all of the easy combinations, or at least could)
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* jcowan
nods
<mathrick>
aeth: speaking of Emacs keybindings, it really gets me that browsers decided to use C-g of all things to mean "next occurrence" when they ripped off incremental search. WTF.
<pjb>
aeth: no trouble at all: WM use actually Mod2-, not super-
<mathrick>
<jcowan> Can you get access to the Windows/Command key and bind that? <-- yes, but it can be a bit involved sometimes
<jcowan>
Oh, much worse that ^W closes the current window/tab! I had to totes break myself of typing it as "word erase" even in a terminal
<mathrick>
I seem to remember that it was either difficult on Win9x and got easier in NT line, or maybe the other way around, was easier on 9x and got difficult in NT windowses
<mathrick>
on Linux, whether that key is a modifier and whether it has bindings and whether it can function as a solitary key and how it's implemented is all highly variable between WMs / DEs
<mathrick>
so it might be trivial or not
<mathrick>
*most of the time*, it should be accessible as <super>, shortand notation s- (that's lowercase s-, not uppercase S- which is shift)
<jcowan>
what are DEs?
<mathrick>
desktop environments. Ie. KDE, MATE, GNOME, LXDE, etc.
<jcowan>
ah
<jackdaniel>
window manager - move windows around, start applications; desktop environment - window manager + various integrations
<pjb>
mathrick: I've never seen a mapping of super- in standard or provided xmodmaps! If you want it, you have to map it. Then why would you map it to a modifier used by the WM?
<jcowan>
That one I knew, though the only WM I use is, umm, Windows.
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<mathrick>
note also that all I said applies to Linux + X. I have absolutely no clue about Wayland, and I also don't care because Wayland is a flaming trainwreck
<mathrick>
pjb: many DEs have global shortcuts on Win key
<mathrick>
some of them also can use Win key alone as a shortcut for their action menu, the way Windows does with Start menu
<pjb>
mathrick: Why the fuck would you map super- on the Win key!???? Map it to the super key!
<jcowan>
I run a few portable apps in Windows, do all my terminal work in Cygwin, and occasionally fire up Cygwin/X in rootless mode
* jcowan
looks for super key, fails to find one
<mathrick>
pjb: because last time I looked, no PC 101 keyboards had a super, but they all have Win key
<mathrick>
but sure, let's map it to a key we don't have
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<pjb>
mathrick: they all have a lot of unused keys.
<mathrick>
and exactly zero of them are a super
<mathrick>
and one that is pretty darn close in function to a super is, wouldn't you know it, the little key usually sporting a windows logo between Ctrl and Alt on most keyboards
<_death>
my cheap microsoft keyboard has the key labels fading out, some went totally black.. so who's to say one of those is not the super key? ;)
<pjb>
mathrick: my keyboard don't sport any marking.
<jackdaniel>
is this really related to common lisp?
<pjb>
Or if they does, they do have a super, along with Hyper, Meta, etc.
<pjb>
jackdaniel: yes, to lisp.
<mathrick>
pjb: then why are you complaining?
<pjb>
I'm not.
<mathrick>
_death: my horrifically expensive standalone old style thinkpad keyboard keys fading too, so I guess I could get a sharpie and make it whatever I want too
<pjb>
Just don't make the mistake to map your super to win.
<mathrick>
but I don't really look so who cares
<jackdaniel>
that was a rethorical question hinting, that it is not (at least at this point of the discussion ;)
<mathrick>
pjb: I'm not mapping anything. My Ubuntu MATE came preconfigured that way. The super key is assigned on this keyboard to the key between Ctrl and Alt
<mathrick>
that's just where the super key is
<aeth>
jackdaniel: I always thought that the difference between a WM and a DE is that a DE provides applications (although it usually also provides a richer/larger WM experience, too)
<aeth>
jackdaniel: e.g. if you use a random WM you're probably using the file manager from lxqt or xfce or something because it's not coming with one
<aeth>
but lxqt, xfce, kde, gnome, etc., all have their own set of more-or-less-complete applications for graphical use
<mathrick>
applications and some kind of unified approach towards how your UX/UI is. A WM is a component of a DE for sure, but for it to be a DE, it generally has to integrate with stuff elsewhere
<mathrick>
such as in MATE, there's the global mate-settings-manager which sets a lot of things, including the shortcut keys used by the WM and the panel and other stuff
<aeth>
so stumpwm is a WM because it provides you nothing (sadly) but a WM
<aeth>
but if someone were to actually write a terminal, a file manager, a text editor, etc., and maybe even a web browser in Common Lisp, that would be a DE
<mathrick>
whereas if you run a WM, the idea is usually it will be i3 or dwm or openbox and the rest of your config is up to you and will likely look nothing like the next i3 user's
<aeth>
WMs may or may not have a panel, though.
<mathrick>
they might, but except for odd ones like windowmaker, it's usually nothing more than "a lot of people tend to use that one with this WM"
<aeth>
mathrick: eh... not really. Gnome DE is all about removing user choice, but KDE is probably more customizable than most WMs.
<aeth>
You can really, really, really customize KDE
<mathrick>
aeth: how much you can customise it has nothing to do with the level of integration though!
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<mathrick>
it's customisable, but it's also integrated. KDE apps will be expected to respect your KDE customisations
<aeth>
yes, the integration means that you could customize things like keybindings for all of the applications built on KDE libraries (and some Qt ones in general) and see it everywhere.
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<aeth>
which arguably is a more powerful sort of customization than a WM like stumpwm gives you
<mathrick>
sure
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<mathrick>
I use a DE and have not used a plain WM in close to 20 years
<mathrick>
I think I was on WindowMaker before I switched to GNOME 2
<mathrick>
and I'm still more or less on GNOME 2, it's just called MATE nowadays
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<mathrick>
aeth: FWIW, I think GNOME 2 had the exact right balance between "I don't want to think about it, just make it work out of the box" and "I have opinions and want to set things to my liking". Then unfortunately someone got the idea that they had to rewrite it all from scratch and make extra sure users didn't get to decide how they use their computers, and we got the GNOME 3 idiocy
<aeth>
mathrick: KDE Plasma is an acceptable GNOME 2 now, but it doesn't fix Gtk/Gnome apps looking really out of place (Qt-in-Gnome and Gtk-in-KDE used to get along much better) because of the extreme redesign Gtk and Gnome took.
<aeth>
(It did take them like 5 years to become an acceptable GNOME 2, though)
<mathrick>
last time I tried using Plasma, it was a massive pain and broke basically immediately. I did it a couple times since Plasma release, most recently some 1-2 years ago?
<aeth>
(And KDE still has the you-can-customize-it-way-too-much aspect of it, too, I guess)
<aeth>
weird, maybe you had some old dotfiles that had some bad configurations
<mathrick>
I also think they still haven't fixed "can't use Win key alone to bring up the menu" thing, which is just silly
<aeth>
yes, when I use KDE I rebind stuff to use the super key.
<aeth>
just like stumpwm and everything else. Really, it's not hard.
<aeth>
Use something that's not super? Some application somewhere is going to use it too and you'll run into a conflict.
<aeth>
Maaaaybe Alt+Tab, F11, and Alt+F4 are safe. But not really anything beyond that.
<aeth>
(And print screen for screenshots, too?)
<mathrick>
aeth: I don't think I had any old dotfiles, I started with what came up by default, and about 5 minutes in it got into some weird state before I was done setting it up in a way that's not confusing to me
<mathrick>
aeth: but I don't want "win key for shortcuts", that works in KDE AFAIK. I want "if I press and release Win key and nothing else, it should bring up the global menu"
<mathrick>
that has never worked right in KDE, going all the way back to KDE 3
<aeth>
the start menu thing? weird.
<mathrick>
yeah
<aeth>
I didn't notice anything unusual about that, but maybe it doesn't do it on Win/super *release* which is what you kind of have to do if you want it to be used for keyboard shortcuts, too
<aeth>
In stumpwm, I hold super down before pressing 'z' because it's just easier to type that way instead of trying to make it closer to simultaneous
<aeth>
just like ctrl, etc.
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<aeth>
I guess I'll have to pay closer attention to the little details like that when I get around to writing a "flaming trainwreck" (your name for wayland) compositor.
<mathrick>
wayland is, in a word, fucking stupid
<mfiano>
off by one error?
<aeth>
Right now I use stumpwm on my desktop (each monitor is a tile, very useful) and KDE elsewhere (battery-powered devices, so I can check the battery, suspend, etc.), but stumpwm is just a light layer on top of clx so its days are numbered
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<mathrick>
not that I disagree with the general idea of taking another look at what X does and maybe rethinking it a lot give what we've learnt over the past 30 years, but wayland is all "you see, X is such a mess, we'll do it right" except their idea of "doing it right" is making a core protocol that's utterly useless for anything actually useful, and then declaring everything else to be outside of the scope of wayland so it's technically not their mess
<aeth>
there was an interesting discussion in #lispcafe (where this is on-topic, unlike here) the other day about mixing freely floating windows and tiling windows, and I definitely think that on modern large-screen displays, floating windows within tiles would definitely be a concept that could work well
<aeth>
So I'll probably do a tiling window manager where tiles are 'virtual desktops' of freely floating windows that exist within the confines of the tiles.
<aeth>
A tile, then, is just a 'maximized' window (fullscreen would probably have to override the tiling and truly take up the full screen, though)
<mathrick>
aeth: I'm pretty interested in Arcan, though I haven't done anything with it other than just looking in its direction with interest
<aeth>
(there are several million tiling window managers so I doubt it's a new concept, though)
<mathrick>
most of them have a floating mode it seems, yeah
<aeth>
maybe not quite the way this is done, though
<aeth>
this is effectively like turning every tile into its own virtual desktop that can rescale to fit within a tile
<mathrick>
how do you make things float on top of other tiles then?
<aeth>
you don't
<aeth>
I'm talking about something like this: [A] + [B] => [A | B] => [A] + [B]
<aeth>
That | is a hard boundary that only F11 can break.
<mathrick>
isn't that the point of mixing floating and tiled windows though?
<mathrick>
having some that can float outside of the regular tiles?
<mathrick>
otherwise, it just sounds like tiles to me
<aeth>
maybe on a 1024x768 screen
<aeth>
This would keep things floating inside of the tiles.
<mathrick>
oh, so you mean like how people buy those ultra-wide panoramic screens and just split them into multiple virtual monitors?
<aeth>
right
<mathrick>
well then, I think that's how it's usually approached :)
<aeth>
if you have a 1440p screen and you do a -|- tile, you'd effectively have four 720p (minus the 1-or-2-pixel-borders) desktops.
<mathrick>
I don't rightly know what WMs are used for that, since I never had one of the ultra-wide monitors to solve that problem on
<aeth>
it's more about using a high-res screen with 1x scaling
<aeth>
I have no interest in ultrawides, either
<mathrick>
same difference\
<mathrick>
any time your screen becomes so big that it doesn't make much sense to use it as a single, contiguous screen
<mathrick>
s/screen/monitor/ for one of those
<aeth>
so anything larger than 7" 800p? :-)
<mathrick>
I dunno, I use my two 1080p monitors with stuff maximised about 95% of the time
<mathrick>
the 5% is almost exclusively the file manager
<mathrick>
the terminal isn't included because I use Guake, so it's its own beast with a dedicated global shortcut key
<aeth>
I often use things fullscreen, but 1080p vs 1440p doesn't really matter... it's usually too big no matter what. I tile within my terminal (tmux), I tile within my Emacs, websites in my web browser usually waste a ton of space with padding, etc.
<aeth>
(a tiling web browser would be so fun)
<mathrick>
yeah, I tile within stuff. I use vertical split in Emacs by default
<mathrick>
I still have to solve the WM-for-windows-in-emacs problem, the default policy is pretty insane
<mathrick>
but all the alternatives I've tried are even worse
<aeth>
As far as Wayland leaving everything interesting up to the DE, that's what I'm hoping for, but I haven't looked into it yet.
<mathrick>
actually, I think it became significantly less predictable in Emacs 24. Up to 23, I generally felt like I understood where things were likely to end up
<aeth>
Ideally, I can just take my 3D engine and use all of the UI stuff I have to eventually do anyway and turn that into a Wayland compositor.
<mathrick>
or maybe 22 and 23 broke it
<mathrick>
one of the "modern but way outdated" versions
<aeth>
Any sufficiently complicated 3D program has its own limited window manager with its own concept of the WIMP GUI built into it.
<aeth>
(Or, worse, it just embeds a web browser. That's increasingly common these days.)
<mathrick>
aeth: the issue with "leaving it up to the compositor" is that you now have 50 different window systems with absolutely no way of doing things portably
<mathrick>
there still isn't a portable way of capturing the screen
<aeth>
The only difference between my game engine's UI and my Wayland compositor should be that the Wayland compositor would be able to open other applications inside of a "window" rectangle (so now they become real windows, I guess).
<mathrick>
<aeth> Ideally, I can just take my 3D engine and use all of the UI stuff I have to eventually do anyway and turn that into a Wayland compositor. <-- https://arcan-fe.com/about/
<mathrick>
I'd really hope that there would be one other difference, namely "there's a standard way of talking about things and manipulating things within your game engine". Have you *tried* to get a shortcut key manager or input remapper that works in Wayland?
<aeth>
I'm not interested in using someone else's framework, especially if their community exists on Discord
<aeth>
I just subjectively don't like Discord, which means I now objectively hate everything to do with Discord because I basically gave up MP gaming because of its literal monopoly there.
<aeth>
I also don't like Lua, and am not sure how I'd interface with something that's designed to be scripted in Lua from Common Lisp
<mathrick>
the short answer is: can't be done, so people resort to injecting superuser components into the udev / ev and just change how the hardware appears to Wayland because it's the only thing that works
<mathrick>
Discord sucks, I agree
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<aeth>
As much as you dislike Wayland for providing nothing, that makes it sound even better to me as a Common Lisper.
<aeth>
Because I'd rather have dumb CFFI buffers that I can hopefully just use static-vectors with instead of something smart and high-level that I have to fight because it's high-level in someone else's paradigms
<mathrick>
vectors are just an implementation detail though. All the vectors in the world don't mean shit if you can't agree on what they mean
<mathrick>
and Wayland doesn't
<aeth>
no, I mean static-vectors is a library that lets you write bilingual arrays in some clever low-level hack that creates something that the implementation recognizes as native and that C recognizes as native, simultaneously.
<aeth>
So if you just give me a bunch of simple C buffers that work with the types static-buffers supports I can just pretend it's (really weird) CL from CL, while still getting a static-vectors:static-vector-pointer to give to the CFFI
<mathrick>
yes, I get that. But that's just bytes. If you think just having raw bytes is all you need to have a sensible system in which things you need can be achieved through reasonable means, I invite you to write a non-trivial application in Bash using Unix pipelines :)
<aeth>
(with the one caveat that the GC can't touch it because the pointer has to keep pointing at the same spot)
<aeth>
It's how the hardware works, though. Or at least the interface to the GPU hardware.
<aeth>
Not really bytes, though. Floats really are different from bytes, no matter what C thinks. One of the things that makes C not actually low level anymore.
<Bike>
kindly stick to the topic, please. if you want to talk about how to use different DEs from lisp, that's fine. but the merits and demerits of wayland itself are off topic.
<mathrick>
that's fair
<mathrick>
aeth: we can take it to #lispcafe if you're interested
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<aeth>
There's not really much else to say other than that I'd rather build CL abstractions on top of CL octet/single-float/etc. arrays (created via static-vectors to be bilingual with the C API) than have to deal with a high level library not written in CL, with high level abstractions that aren't CL's. If it really is that low level.
<mathrick>
aeth: and I still think you're talking about something entirely different than what I was talking about, because all the abstractions in the world won't get you anywhere if you're the only person in the world who uses them. I don't care *how* the protocol is implemented, I care that it's implemented somehow and shared with others so things work and I can do the things I'm interested in rather than making an omelette from scratch
<mathrick>
I already make way to many omelettes from scratch in CL
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<mathrick>
not to mention that the whole "a bunch of bytes in memory is all you ever need" approach is a large part of WHY it's so hard to interface with many things from CL, because a lot of C code assumes that is all you need and anyone can just spray their stuff all over the address space and it's fine
<mathrick>
but almost all languages other than C have more things you need to do than just raw memory addresses
<aeth>
I'm taking it to #lispcafe even though I'm basically just going to repeat what I already said there.
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<ashpool>
(or (values t 'first) (values t 'second)) ; t
<ashpool>
(or (values nil 'first) (values t 'second)) ; t 'second
<ashpool>
— why does or eat up 'first but not 'second?
<ashpool>
in which contexts is it safe to assume that my (values...) will "survive"?
<_death>
note that you can write a multiple-value-or if you need it
<Bike>
for a macro like or, you kind of need to check the definition of the macro. and the definition of or says it only keeps the primary value, except for the last form.
<Bike>
broadly speaking, values are preserved by returns, multiple-value-prog1, multiple-value-call, and that's about it. everything else is only primary values. that or can expand to basically (let ((v1 (values t 'first))) (if v1 v1 (values t 'second))), and the let binding doesn't preserve values.
<ashpool>
oh man... gotta say, to me as a CL beginner the language feels like one giant pitfall
<ashpool>
thank you for the thorough explanation
<_death>
apparently before the current semantics (in the clhs) the rule was that AND and OR returned the last evaluated form's multiple values, but it was too confusing
<mathrick>
_death: huh, do you have more context? I don't see how that would be more confusing than "return multiple values only if the last evaluated form is also the last form given"
<mathrick>
_death: oh, I think that is saying the opposite of what you said though? I think it's saying the current rule (ie. the one that made it into ANSI CL) is confusing, and a different definition (that did not get adopted) would be less so
<_death>
ah, good call.. I misread
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<aeth>
ashpool: values are very, very useful and amazingly composable with SETFs that can take in multiple values... but (almost) nothing built-in uses them
<aeth>
they can be fun but you just have to accept building up your own "language" to work with them if you use them
<ashpool>
i've actually been exploring them to emulate Go's convention of returning errors from functions as a second value
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<ashpool>
i didn't want to get into exceptions and stack unwinding yet
<ashpool>
sadly it seems to be very cumbersome to do it consistently
<_death>
ignore-errors does that
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<ashpool>
aeth: it's a real shame that built-in let and let* don't support them
<ashpool>
there are implementations, sure, but i'm really trying to master and appreciate the core language before moving on to rolling my own and using other people's extensions
<mathrick>
multiple values are a big letdown :(
<mathrick>
they're super useful, but almost nothing in the language supports them
<mathrick>
so all you can really do is use them for is returning a bit of extra context from a function
<aeth>
but
<aeth>
they work with symbol-macrolet and that's all you really need
<_death>
multiple values are often overused, so after a while you learn that it's not a big deal, and could in fact be interpreted as sign from the CL designers to keep them in check
<aeth>
I can generate SYMBOL-MACROLETs on accessor pairs that get and set multiple values (disadvantage: the size needs to be known ahead of time for the SETF part)
<aeth>
so I can (setf foo bar) where foo is (array-of-4 a 3) and bar is (array-of-4 b) for the same effect as (replace a b :start1 3 :end1 (+ 3 4)) although I'm doing it live so I might've off-by-one'd something
<aeth>
in practice, if you wanted to use VALUES to work with subsequences larger than 4 you should probably turn that into a loop of 1, 2, 3, or 4 values rather than doing this trick.
<aeth>
You do need to know that this trick is happening, though.
<aeth>
You should notice that you could also do (setf foo bar) where foo is (array-of-4 a) and bar is (array-row-of-4 b 32) or even some custom VALUES decomposition of b that isn't sequential. So it's more powerful than REPLACE even though the built-ins make the most trivial examples seem pointlessly complicated.
<NotThatRPG>
multiple-value-bind ?
<NotThatRPG>
One way to think about them is as a way to avoid the problems that come from having no distinction between false and NIL....
<aeth>
well, no, you don't need m-v-b if you just symbol-macrolet on functions written for a multiple-value environment where you either SETF or call VALUES stuff
<aeth>
You can also m-v-b on a function that returns VALUES, but it's not as elegant as calling that function implicitly through a symbol macro
<aeth>
on something that accepts its API
<aeth>
in that sense, multiple-value-call is more useful
<aeth>
just kind of awkwardly long
<aeth>
(multiple-value-call #'foo a b c d)
<aeth>
and it's almost certainly on functions with names longer than foo and variables with names longer than a, b, c, and d
<aeth>
(and now that kind of shatters the illusion a bit because you need to know that e.g. b is 3 values and the rest are 1)
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<aeth>
You probably would need a reader macro if you m-v-c a lot.
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<jcowan>
m-v-c is the only really tricky one
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