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<gendl>
so quiet in here this morning already afternoon in europe and evening in asia..
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<beach>
I am sure we could find something to discuss if you like.
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<dbotton>
Is there a comparison chart of the advantages (of course support) of the commercial compilers over others available? (I assume there are many)
<pjb>
dbotton: there's a table in cliki about implementations, but I don't remember if it qualifies features as pro/cons. This would depend on your needs.
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<beach>
I am unaware of a chart. But Allegro has the best debugging support. And perhaps LispWorks has the best IDE?
<dbotton>
pjb no needs, I want to encourage people to search out and fulfill their needs
<dbotton>
A "feature" of CL is both free and commercial products
<dbotton>
both extremely stable
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<dbotton>
As I build up my marketing arsenal when ready to go after python and various other langs in IT
<dbotton>
I want to demonstrate the availability of the commercial support available
<_death>
there's a link to a survey there, though it may need updating
<dbotton>
majorlu
<dbotton>
cliki as a whole does also
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<dbotton>
nothing has to look good but has to be cleaned up
<dbotton>
I'll try to start on at some point of find some to do
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<dbotton>
the greatest power of CL and its greatest weakness is time
<jcowan>
weakness, how is that?
<pjb>
dbotton: Lispworks has compilers for iOS and Android too! (perhaps Franz too now, I didn't check).
<pjb>
dbotton: there are not a lot of active commercial implementations, so it should be easy to look at them and build feature lists.
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<dbotton>
jcowan - the long term stability vs the amount of abandoned web pages and projects
<dbotton>
ecl works great for ios and android
<jcowan>
Are there really more abandoned CL projects pro rata than, say, Python or Ruby or JS projects?
<edgar-rft>
CL is clearly more stable than the web :-)
<dbotton>
exactly :)
<dbotton>
jcowan yes because the pages and products were good ones for CL that others linked to :)
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<pjb>
jcowan: they abandonned a whole python ecosystem (python 2), and even I assume python 1 too!
<jcowan>
I don't question stability, I question whether there are more abandoned CL projects, relative to the size of the CL ecosystem, than projects in other languages.
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<dbotton>
the number of way-back machine pages we actively hand to people jcowan is a good sign of the issue
<pjb>
jcowan: well, this implies a lot of libraries have been abandonned for lack of maintainer to upgrade them. The proof is that there are still programs running in python 2.7, that are not upgraded.
<dbotton>
the pages contain very very good content, but ancient
<dbotton>
Python the contest was never good so fades
<dbotton>
that is point
<dbotton>
I am not complaining btw
<dbotton>
I think all these are signs of success
<dbotton>
longevity, stability, validity of ancient words
<dbotton>
but as a resent reddit post - there are only 8 contributors so must not be popular.......
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<dbotton>
little do they know CL if more than one working on a project is ultra modern project as most 0 as no need once written
<beach>
dbotton: I can't parse that last utterance of yours.
<dbotton>
meaning that # of contributors, frequency of updates, are poor barometers for CL
<dbotton>
CL's strength in allowing rapid development of a one man team tends to reduce the need for larger teams
<dbotton>
the quality of using a REPL to test ones code during development reduces errors
<dbotton>
and so the need for frequent bug fixes by many individuals
<dbotton>
the stability of the tools reducing need for updates to old projects
<beach>
Got it.
<AadVersteden[m]>
There is a risk for companies in that it is costly if employees leave a one-man team.
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<beach>
A company should do a risk analysis, which would avoid such a situation.
* jcowan
chuckles
<jcowan>
If companies really did a risk analysis, they would never open their doors.
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<dbotton>
<AadVersteden[m]> we are talking open source projects that generally have little to no support at least at start
<dbotton>
granted things have changed over the years
<beach>
jcowan: Yeah, I know, but they really should.
<dbotton>
but that is one area that needs to improve over all
<dbotton>
most companies consider the number of individuals with knowledge to pass an exam on a programming language as a risk reduction
<dbotton>
that is a bad metric
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<dbotton>
a developer with the real skills needed may not even know the language
<dbotton>
I personally have chosen over the years who to work for based on how they try to hire me
<dbotton>
my last venture in full time employ asked for me to lay out a design of a system
<dbotton>
they understood the language skill was not the issue and it was how I solved the issue that mattered
<dbotton>
so my point is AadVersteden[m] the real risk to companies is they don't know how to look for talent
<dbotton>
and they confuse creative problem solving with having "technician" skills
<dbotton>
a company that knows how to find talent, one person teams or fifty is the same
<dbotton>
I am convinced that CL is a simple enough language that any one with "creative problem solving" skills, already has skills in any programming language, and google (cause CL is just huge) can succeed with CL.
<dbotton>
CL really is a "killer" tool for startups
<dbotton>
what is missing is a better module interfacing a key factor for team dev and "team" tools
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<dbotton>
CL is not going to change (and I don't thing should) so I think any team project just has to work out first how they are going to do the modules (using protocols, plugins as in CLOG, abstract objects, etc) and keep to it and maybe have tools to enforce it
<dbotton>
and "team" tools is something (at least to me) needs to be "discovered"
<dbotton>
<gendl> hope my noise answered your concerns :)
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<NotThatRPG>
Any sly users out there? I'm having an odd issue: I have a file open in tramp (*not* a CL source file), and for some reason sly insists on trying to open a lisp interpreter on the remote host instead of locally
<NotThatRPG>
Anyone seen that? Any suggestions for dealing with it?
<mathrick>
NotThatRPG: I've never tried doing remote work with SLY active, but João tends to be pretty responsive if you file an issue against SLY
<pjb>
NotThatRPG: that's the default working of tramp: when you start a new process, it tries to start it in the same host as the current buffer.
<NotThatRPG>
mathrick: Thanks!
<pjb>
NotThatRPG: switch to a buffer in the local host.
<morganw>
I don't think it is exclusive to tramp, you get the same issue starting a program in EXWM when looking at a remote file. I think everything uses the current directory by default, and for a remote file that is the remote directory.
<ober>
which startups have lead the way with CL?
<pjb>
Ober: starting with ViaWeb, thru ITA Software, and many others.
* ober
rolls pjbs clock forward to today :P
<pjb>
Grammarly, this startup that sorts trash in Sweden, that other that pilots agriculture robots in Strasburg, etc.
<ober>
just asked as having worked at a lot of clojure startups, pushing CL never got much traction. although I did get them to purchase acl and lw
<pjb>
Ober: in any case you don't want to lead the way, you just want to be able to IPO your startup and get a few hundred million. Enough to start a Tesla+SpaceX. (say a startup to manufacture mars-suits and asteroid mining robots).
<ober>
heh
<pjb>
Imagine, so far space suits have been made in series of ten at most. But with 1 million martians, your market will multiply 100,000 fold! And Mars surface will wear them fast. You'll be quadrillionaire!
<mathrick>
I also have a million bridges to sell to those martians
<pjb>
Same for asteroid mining. If you can get 1Mkg of iron or aluminium from an asteroid, it's worth $1,400/kg (Falcon Heavy), so that's $1.4 billion worth!
<Mrtn[m]>
(print t "Hellow Orld")
<NotThatRPG>
morganw: I actually tried changing to a buffer that was *not* on the remote host, and I still got sly trying to start lisp on the wrong host.
<mathrick>
Mrtn[m]: PRINT takes object, then stream, and is generally almost never what you want when you want to get something printed out
<mathrick>
I also don't think it accepts T as the stream designator, the way FORMAT does
<Mrtn[m]>
mathrick: "Hellow Orld" certainly doesn't look like an ordinary stream.
<NotThatRPG>
Also `(format t "Hellow Orld~%")` to get the new line!
<mathrick>
ah, no, it does in fact take a designator and not strictly a stream
<mathrick>
so T should be fine
<Mrtn[m]>
Good point, NotThatRPG
<Mrtn[m]>
mathrick: Still, format would more likely be what I was looking for. Print is like a Basic Python thing, I guess. (Or Algol etc).
<Mrtn[m]>
No wait, Algol uses *write* doesn't it?
<pjb>
The pittfall here is that format also accepts a string as first argument (as long as it's mutable, with a fill-pointer): (let ((out (make-array 80 :fill-pointer 0 :element-type 'character))) (format out "Hello ~A" 'world) out) #| --> "Hello world" |#
<mathrick>
pjb: oh, does it? I had no idea!
<mathrick>
I doubt anyone ever uses that intentionally though
<gendl>
dbotton: yes thank you
<Mrtn[m]>
Is out true in CL?
<morganw>
NotThatRPG: I guess the standard advice would be to re-test with `emacs -Q`, load the sly packages manually, and see if you get the same problem.
<NotThatRPG>
Yes, probably. I can also look up the function that happens when I try to start the repl, and see what variables it might be looking at that would throw it off.
<mathrick>
Mrtn[m]: I don't understand your question
<NotThatRPG>
Kind of smells like a dynamic variable issue to me...
<Mrtn[m]>
math: I refer to pjb's program.
<Mrtn[m]>
He lets out be a local variable.
<aeth>
mathrick: I think (almost) nobody uses it because it's mostly redundant with with-output-to-string... technically format nil is, too, but that's much shorter
<mathrick>
yeah
<mathrick>
interestingly, in a regular stream designator, NIL means *STANDARD-OUTPUT*, so I guess FORMAT does not technically take a stream designator
<pjb>
mathrick: why? It's a very nice feature of format, to build strings.
<mathrick>
indeed, it's not documented as such
<AadVersteden[m]>
<dbotton> "<Aad Versteden> we are talking..." <- I made my own company around my lisp code 😂
<pjb>
mathrick: (let ((out (make-array 80 :fill-pointer 0 :element-type 'character))) (format out "Hello ~A" 'world) (format out " Bye!") out) #| --> "Hello world Bye!" |#
<mathrick>
pjb: it seems like it'd be equally easy to use WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRINGS, and mutable strings as FORMAT destination are sufficiently obscure to make reading the code interesting
<mathrick>
*WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRINGS even
<pjb>
mathrick: but with-output-to-string cannot know in advance the size of the output! It is only asymptotically O(n).
<pjb>
and it is probably way more costly and produces more garbage.
<dbotton>
<AadVersteden[m]> then no risk
<dbotton>
you go, who cares :)
<mathrick>
pjb: maybe, but I feel that the cases in which *I* know the size of the output in advance are not really numerous enough to matter in any practical sense
<aeth>
pjb: I think people would more normally do it like this if they needed to give the macro an array (they normally don't): (let ((a (make-array 80 :fill-pointer 0 :element-type 'character))) (with-output-to-string (out a) (format out "Hello ~A" 'world) (format out " Bye!") (terpri out)) a)
<aeth>
Notice the advantage of being able to use not just as many FORMATs as you want but as many anythings as you want
<pjb>
aeth: yes, for that you need with-output-to-string.
<aeth>
unfortunately, you have to bind A because with-output-to-string apparently returns NIL if you give it a string (and otherwise just returns the string it builds) or else that would be even shorter
<aeth>
The space where you would want multiple FORMATs but also not want the flexibility to include other things (like TERPRI) is small.
<pjb>
also different historic strates.
<aeth>
And, yes, sometimes TERPRI is better than ~% in fancy elaborate output because in practice it would be for things like ~%~% or ~2% (or more!)
<aeth>
and at that point, it might be clearer to have the blank line be its own call rather than part of the FORMAT
<aeth>
i.e. (format out "foo~%") (terpri out) ; if it was just this, it's unnecessary, but in practice, you'd be doing this if you're generating someone's text format so imagine dozens/hundreds of these and suddenly using TERPRI to break things up a bit makes a lot of sense
<aeth>
(because you're inevitably going to forget one)
<aeth>
(because 1 in 10 lines will be ~%~% or ~2% instead of ~% if you only use FORMATs unless you're willing to FORMAT with just a "~%")
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<AadVersteden[m]>
<dbotton> "you go, who cares :)" <- my partners? contingency exists =D
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<aeth>
dbotton: The hiring process of a lot of companies use that cargo culted Google's hiring process ignores the fact that people were willing to jump through hoops to work for *Google*. Most companies aren't special. Really, even today's Google (vs 10+ years ago) isn't.
<dbotton>
aeth agreed
<aeth>
dbotton: But on your other point, even if the language doesn't change, the world does. e.g. old IRC libraries will break when the major networks start requiring encryption. Or when they add new required extensions. And this is IRC. Everything else is probably worse.
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<ober>
after sbcl, is ccl still considered the next most popular?
<tychoish>
I'd figure ecl would be next, but I don't know
<tychoish>
this isn't based on anything
<jackdaniel>
for some miniscule community being next-to-something is basically equal to niche of the niche ;)
<jackdaniel>
s/some/such/
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<aeth>
it is probably sbcl then ccl then ecl
<aeth>
but the only one that's large enough to really notice is sbcl
<aeth>
(as in, it's clearly larger than the others)
<aeth>
if you can convince the mainters to add telemetry then we can figure out exact numbers though :-p
<aeth>
*maintainers
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<Nilby>
in a 2020 survey, 89% percent of people used sbcl, 29% of people use ccl, and ecl and clisp tied at 12%
<jackdaniel>
with upcoming wasm support in the next release hopefully ecl will raise a bit!
<Nilby>
i would bet ecl use is actually higher now
<jackdaniel>
(there are other important improvements in the oven, but wasm is certainly flashy)
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<Nilby>
yes, if we compile to wasm then maybe we can be bought out for $billions
<jackdaniel>
since I'm mentioning upcoming changes - the other two are fast gf dispatch and type inferencer - the first needs some rebasing and testing, but seems to work, the latter is wip)
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<jackdaniel>
I'm not fond of the idea of selling out myself - even willful slavery is illegal in my country ,] but maybe we'll be showered in praise an other free software money substitutes!
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<jackdaniel>
s/an other/-/
<Nilby>
yes, now i only have to finish the software the threatens big corpos, and then i can tell ethically reject thier slavery
* jackdaniel
gets back to the friday chill, laters \o
<aeth>
jackdaniel: how did you do conditions and GC in the WASM ECL? Didn't people have issues with those?
<jackdaniel>
aeth: by means of using an utility asyncify in binaryen. it basically allows to build a pseudo stack in the asynchronous environment
<jackdaniel>
s/utility/functionality/
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<random-nick>
what's the usage like on the commercial ones? are those maybe between sbcl and ccl?
<Nilby>
lispworks 8.5% allegro 5.1%, but keep in mind this was an uncientific reddit survey
<Nilby>
allegro at least has much higher usage as a percent of end user applications
<Nilby>
probably lw too
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<gendl>
Hi, thanks again to _death for the swank help. And now, another swank question: Does anyone know how I can load all of swank into my image during my build process such that the image can be saved & restarted and I can straight away do a `(swank:create-server ...)` ?
<gendl>
in my build process, I have tried `(load ".../swank-loader.lisp")` followed by
<gendl>
`(swank-loader:init :load-contribs t :quiet t)`
<gendl>
then I save image
<gendl>
when I restart said image, `(swank:create-server ...)` appears at first to work just dandy, but...
<gendl>
a subsequent `M-x slime-connect` from emacs results in swank requiring a bunch of more stuff, to wit:
<gendl>
well, i won't paste them all but `swank-io-package::swank-indentation` `swank-io-package::swank-trace-dialog` and a bunch of others in `swank-io` package
<gendl>
So I went ahad and added a `swank:swank-require` of all those in my build process, after the `swank-loader:init`
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<gendl>
Again, trying the `M-x slime-connect` from emacs, this time no errors or complaints, the slime-repl buffer just silently loses the connection.
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<gendl>
ah, so at least one can track down what they are instead of things failing behind the scenes mysteriously
<gendl>
do you plan on requesting a merge of your fork into the slime which goes into quicklisp?
<_death>
gendl: nope
<gendl>
too much trouble? Changes to specialized to your use cases?
<gendl>
ok i see what you're referring to is just one small change
<gendl>
i can try that, thank you.
<gendl>
i should say may I try that -- is your fork still under public domain license?
<_death>
gendl: some years ago I made a pull request (or two?) and it never got an answer, so I don't bother.. I once mentioned that the maintainers can merge any patch there if they wish
<_death>
gendl: yes, public domain
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<_death>
eh, had some trouble with a lock on a clog page.. a refresh could make things work ;)
<gendl>
_death: ok i'll give your continue restarts a whirl and see whether it sheds any light on the silent failing. Otherwise at this juncture I'm punting and I'll just continue shipping slime/swank sources with the image. That probably won't ever go away actually, because i'd like to be providing a compatible slime for folks to use with images we ship anyway, and that's literally the same codebase.
<_death>
gendl: cool.. I needed it because I have some contribs on my development machine that aren't on the server machine..
<_death>
since they are not critical, I can just skip them when connecting to the server
<dbotton>
_death coolio
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<dbotton>
_death is that part of a project or the like>
<_death>
nah, just hacked it today because of your question.. it does use some code that's not public
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<_death>
to get clog running with nginx proxy_pass and a url rewrite I had to change boot.js (incl. the hardcoded version in the lisp file)/boot.html ... maybe there's a better way
<gendl>
_death: I don't know how adding the simple-restart could have fixed it, but it's working now! Going to replicate a few more times to be sure...
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<gendl>
the restart never fired. I redefined swank-require as per your fork and swank-require all the known needed modules, and now the repl seems to be working normally in a CCL image started without knowing of any swank sources.
<dbotton>
_death: can you send me the modified boot.js
<dbotton>
Easiest probably on GitHub but however you like
<gendl>
still I fear that some action down the road would end up requiring something which needs a source file. So after all this I think i'm still gonna distribute slime/swank source with the images and re-initialize swank with the path to same..
<_death>
dbotton: it's the same as the original, only I had to use "/clog/clog" in the websocket path, as the url is rewritten from /clog/clog to /clog
<gendl>
Is it possible to run a CLOG ui inside a certain div of a web page? maybe within an iframe ?
<dbotton>
Yes
<dbotton>
Has to be same domain
<dbotton>
For websockets to work
<gendl>
I was thinking same domain. Served from the same CL image.
<dbotton>
Doesn’t have to be but can be
<dbotton>
You can add boot.js to any html file and it phones home to clog
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<dbotton>
There are examples in the tutorials
<_death>
anyway, that CL-Implementation model (and UI) could use a bit more work.. it's not a permanent link but I'll keep it around for a bit
<dbotton>
How was your experience with clog?
<_death>
I don't consider to have any ;).. but it definitely solves one of the most annoying things about "web development", the frontend/backend split.. would probably be interesting to also use cells with it to solve the data flow problem
<dbotton>
I’ll look at carefully tomorrow night as heading out soon
<_death>
shabbat shalom, I guess ;)
<AadVersteden[m]>
dbutton: you have to find someone that wants to do lisp to solve that. I search for talent that matches the vibe of the company. They probably don't follow my own thoughtpatterns at all times. I don't expect anyone to use Lisp or Emacs but I will promote the choices I made I will share we have learned and warn for wjat went bad.
<AadVersteden[m]>
hiring talent is easier said than done. I don't think I can really spot talent during an interview. There is signal but also a lot of noise. I think I can spot motivation to some extent.
<dbotton>
Yes Shabbat Shalom :)
<dbotton>
AadVersteden[m]: finding talent is not so hard. You look for passion and you look for accomplishment
<dbotton>
I use to hire and the trick was finding their Art
<dbotton>
See what they did outside of programming
<AadVersteden[m]>
how do you detect talent? accomplishments is a false premise, it depends too much on opportunities and pushing other people down.
<dbotton>
That is why I see where else the accomplished
<AadVersteden[m]>
I look for a shared dream and just nice people.
<AadVersteden[m]>
same holds. much is luck imho
<dbotton>
I know many brilliant people. The ones that have talent find ways to express. Music. Art. Even in software.
<dbotton>
Accomplishment doesn’t mean finances
<dbotton>
In fact rarely does
<AadVersteden[m]>
we have a programming exercise but not enough data to really know if it is a good correlation.
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<dbotton>
No test works perfect.
<dbotton>
But seeing drive to create works well
<AadVersteden[m]>
yeah I know it is not financial. at least for me it is. but still. people often gon't know they are accomplishments.
<_death>
my recent experience with a bit of "job seeking" suggests to me that companies must be drowning in noise.. since out of the few I tried only one bothered to set up a face-to-face interview, and with the "wrong" team... ;)
<dbotton>
Companies are notoriously bad at hiring. That is how we got into this.
<dbotton>
It is a good thing for the world though.
<dbotton>
A sharp small team can still compete even against a large company
<AadVersteden[m]>
feel free to ping. we have much js in pactice, sorry. but we do make a dent in empowering people with data.
<AadVersteden[m]>
dbutton: that!
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<_death>
AadVersteden[m]: I did look at your code recently (weeks ago), since I spent a few days mulling use of rdf
<AadVersteden[m]>
oh, please come and do some tryout impovements on mu-cl-resources. pretty please
<AadVersteden[m]>
we do a lot with rdf so always interested to connect to lispers doing related things. there aren't many
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<jeosol>
Good morning all!
<_death>
my conclusion was that I don't need rdf for now.. but I may look into it again in the future, if I continue forging my own path (high chance of that.. seems I'm basically unemployable as an outsider with a swiss cheese "resume-HR-..." process and a very low prior of initiating) .. oh well, time to take a break ;)
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<AadVersteden[m]>
_death: choose your own path. but if this may interest you and you know lisp, I'd love to have a chat on the offchance I can share something with this community about linked data.
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<mathrick>
why does CFFI:WITH-FOREIGN-ARRAY crash if I give it a vector of length 21344 containing :UINT8, but works fine for 2134 (ie. 10x shorter)?
<mathrick>
this is on SBCL and Linux
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<mathrick>
note that it crashes even if the body of WITH-FOREIGN-ARRAY is empty; me merely attempting to do that seems to throw me into LDB immediately
<jcowan>
AadVersteden[m]: I am a Lisper, don't push people down, have done things with RDF, etc. etc. and I am looking for work
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<kakuhen>
I would definitely be interested in working for companies hiring CL devs. But something tells me they'd all want senior devs with professional experience, which instantly disqualifies me.
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<NotThatRPG>
_death: The Garnet UI toolkit, in CL, had a constraint language in it that is more fully-featured than cells ever managed. But it is prototype-based instead of class based which requires substantial rethink to get yourself to work with it.
<NotThatRPG>
AadVersteden[m]: Your mu-cl-resources is really interesting. Hope to have time to read it carefully...
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