ArmbianHelper changed the topic of #armbian to: armbian - Linux for ARM development boards | www.armbian.com | Github: github.com/armbian | Commits: #armbian-commits | Developer talk: #armbian-devel | Forum/Twitter feed: #armbian-rss | Logs: -> irc.armbian.com
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<Macer>
IgorPec: alrighty. i managed to get armbian to boot from a SD on the pbp so i guess it was just user error. so that's pretty awesome. too bad suspend still doesn't work. that's the only fatal flaw with this thing
<Macer>
oddly enough though it took ike 3 reboots before it would boot properly. not really sure what that was about
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<IgorPec>
macer dunno. this will need to be clarified with users / maitainers. rather use forum for this question. we are also in a process to upgrade boot loader on rockchips, so this will have some affects. Hopefully positive
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<norwich>
Hi armbian folks. I am using a helios64 system which faces some kernel panics every now and then on the latest kernel. Most of the time it happens during reset, but I do see issues during runtime as well (system hangs every now and then with no obvious reason)
<norwich>
It was quite stable with the previous kernel (I have set the governor to a fixed frequency on both kernels)
<norwich>
Here is a log from the last crash, maybe someone has experience with this kind of exceptions: https://pastebin.com/nML3s4hH
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> What is wrong with current support? How much of our time are you paying now? I know. But do you?
<norwich>
IgorPec: Don't get me wrong, all your effort is highly appreciated. I just wanted to know, since the HW is officially not supported, if there is something I could help with, e.g. like testing
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<IgorPec>
talking with "customers" can easily cost me more then 1000 EUR per day. There is no income from you. Please don't get me wrong, but i can afford to deal with you
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<IgorPec>
i don't need that haedware you bought from 3rd party works well. you do
<norwich>
IgorPec: Didn't mean to cause any friction here, was just asking around. Sorry for the noise.
<Armbian-Discord>
<bret> Off topic, but does your name come from the city you're from/live in or just random, norwich? 😄
<norwich>
bret: It was my first x86 board I have dealt with back then, based on an LX800
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> Norwich, if you test down to when the kernel reversion happened, that would be a step toward solving it
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<norwich>
ManoftheSea: old good working Kernel was 5.10.63, the one failing currently is 5.15.25. I guess I need to take a closer look to find the real one
<yang>
norwich: you can "bisect" kernel builds
<norwich>
I am still not fully sure if this is an issue due to some power instability on the hw
<ArmbianHelper>
^ DebianKernel/GitBisect - Debian Wiki
<norwich>
as the old kernel had the same issues with governor active
<yang>
not sure if this procedure applies also for SBCs
<norwich>
yang: thanks, will have a look
<yang>
norwich: I have similar problem on a non-ARM board....old kernel works, with new one it crashes
<norwich>
yang: oh, good to know. Thanks for the info
<yang>
you are welcome
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<yang>
norwich: like IgorPec you can explain the issue on the forum, and maybe file a bug report later?
<yang>
like IgorPec mentioned
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> i am sure it is already on forum
<IgorPec>
but nobody will work on resolving the bug
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> But also I'm not going to update my helios64 either
<IgorPec>
https://armbian.atlassian.net/jira/dashboards/10000 shows that around 320 days is average issue close time. And norwich users don't even have any rights to add a bug there. If we would allow that, it would extend from one to 10 years
<ArmbianHelper>
^ Dashboard - Jira
<norwich>
IgorPec: Again, just wanted to ask if I can be helpful somehow and give something back to the great community. Seems like this question is not so easy to answer
<IgorPec>
norwich: you have a lot of options what you can do first, before asking for more. random person from the internet is years away from having a position to ask a question you have asked
<norwich>
IgorPec: OK, understood
<IgorPec>
if we say there is not support, its no support. We are contributing almost everything
<IgorPec>
and that everything are numbers. I lost x hours every day. Not being with my family. In exchange for ?
<IgorPec>
humiliating atitude is pretty normal here - everyone wants everything for free
<IgorPec>
software support brought from utter garbage, where most of hw starts, to something usable costs thausands of hours
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<IgorPec>
there is n different hw ... and we have to be competivive with distributions that invest nothing at all and sell their distro ...
<yang>
norwich: Are you able to find/use another board?
<yang>
norwich: we have several at home
<IgorPec>
this is NAS like board, very unique
<IgorPec>
but anyway, a lot of them are unique. this is the case with ARM hardware
<IgorPec>
which is why support is so expensive
<[TheBug]>
My 2 cents on the Helios board is that since the vendor them selves gave up on supporting it and basically and they were the ones primarily supporting it at first, this should give you insight on what your expectations should be for support going forward -- that team wrestled with non-stop issues and had a horible time getting anything consistently stable so I suggest if you are going to use
<[TheBug]>
that board and you find a stable kernel that works, you stay with it.
<[TheBug]>
It and the EspressoBin while not the exact same hardware both have generally the same fate
<[TheBug]>
and with 0 support from the vendors Armbian pretty much has no motivation to support it either
<IgorPec>
it took years to get here and we suffer with this Ebin. Now after many years its almost usable , but its EOL
<[TheBug]>
thats very vaugue even though
<[TheBug]>
I would suggest the v7 probably works reasonably
<[TheBug]>
but I would have my doubts on v4 and v5 since almost no one have them
<IgorPec>
users expecations on the other side - they have absolutely no idea how much work is needed to keep this junk usable
<[TheBug]>
well the problem is we let vendors get away with not supporting their hardware (and by we in this case I mean the users, not Armbian)
<IgorPec>
yes, "we" in general
<[TheBug]>
GlobalScape is a total bunch of assholes who never did any of the work at all imo
<[TheBug]>
they provided an SDK built image and said good luck from day one
<[TheBug]>
they concentrated more on OpenWRT
<[TheBug]>
cause they wanted it to be some network router
<[TheBug]>
Helios64 guys put in a lot of hours
<[TheBug]>
they just couldn't get over the hump
<[TheBug]>
ever
<[TheBug]>
so they quit
<IgorPec>
its a simple math. You need some dedicated people to keep complex devices up. Or a strong community
<[TheBug]>
actually more you need people who understand arm hardware than anything
<IgorPec>
but market is just to small. rpi takes 80%
<[TheBug]>
there are a lot of people who want to dedicate their time to helping with stuff
<[TheBug]>
but there is a large gap in skill sets
<[TheBug]>
its not something you can pick up over night like x86 stuff
<IgorPec>
well, you need to coordinate all this and have many other skills
<IgorPec>
non technical
<[TheBug]>
yes my point is your usuall person starting in SBC is the opposite of the person who will understand how to fix any of this stuff
<[TheBug]>
your largest audience isn't the one that understands or cares about this stuff
<[TheBug]>
they just want a working OS for their device
<[TheBug]>
they don't care whats under the hood
<IgorPec>
yes, but someone has to pay for this
<[TheBug]>
and those who are the right person end up not having enough time to spend because their work life is already too busy to handle it
<IgorPec>
yep.
<[TheBug]>
there is a large discrepency in skill sets, I am sure this is what most people feel when entering into ARM / SBC realm outside RPi
<[TheBug]>
most who ask for support here are those that feel that discrepency and realize for first time that they bought an piece of hardware that probably will have very little support and they go, fuck me... what did I get my self into
<[TheBug]>
and thus why people tend to slowly go back to x86 platforms and abadon their SBC dreams
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> I've not minded this five I've been testing on
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> It is.
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> A network router, if it doesn't see replies
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<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> Thebug, but if a vendor is supporting the arm system, aren't they doing so by getting redhat or Debian working with mainline? Armbian wouldn't need to support the solidrun cn9130 if it boots Debian proper. Or the honeycomb workstation, etc
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> we take mainline and debian as a raw material
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> we also use ubuntu as a raw material which uses debian as a raw material
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> it doesn't boot debian proper. they make you think it does
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> this is the sales strategy, while support is pretty messy also with SolidRun.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> all of them implicate "yes, it boots Debian" ... "it supports Ubuntu" ... but in facts its pretty terrible, require nonstandard approaches, its barely usable ... from there to production can be as long way and no, "Debian" don't do anything to improve that. Nor Canonical ...
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> Ebin was reborn as at least one commercial product / in some other form which is IMO the reason there are fixes landing to the mainline kernel. Its not an random act.
<stipa>
yeah, my arm board is off
<stipa>
everything runs on x86 rn
<stipa>
too bad
<stipa>
but what can you do, life goes on
<stipa>
honestly i would rather buy something like intel NUC then an ARM board
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> Yeah, I thought the Netgate sg 1100 and 2100 (but it might be 2100 and 3100) were using nearly the same setup as the ebin.
<stipa>
set some scripts and call it done and stable
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> core of the problem here is that users will continue to buy "garbage from aliexpress" that is cheaper then something usable ... but hey, they promise Debian and Ubuntu works. It can't be bad, right? 🙂 It is already sold under assumption that software support will be stolen. Now since it doesn't work ... people feel we are crooks because we don't provide support and fix problems
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> and again you expect top software support. not consumer class Android shit
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> in exchange for absolutely nothing. That's the problem. Is Intel better? Yes. but you pay more. And also low cost intel stuff doesn't just work. Its also problematic to some degree
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> you buy too recent x86 hardware - again problems
<stipa>
more devs for sure
<stipa>
and as i see it intel invests some time in linux drivers
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> haha
<stipa>
idk, i run some more than 10 years x86 stuff and it's fine
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> intel invest in business segment, servers, serious eqipment
<[TheBug]>
Again, is a vendor problem, they should be the one informing / providing the end user with the information needed to make an educated decision -- this should include the truth about software support and what it costs, and they should then include an 'option' to purchase software support and if they can't afford to do that internally they should find a way to donate / pass on that money to
<[TheBug]>
those whom are able to support those users, be that Armbian or any other project that has t he goal to actually facilitate that ability to build a consistent platform for their product
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> embedded purpose driven solutions are not for end users.
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> But of course the vendor's not gonna say "we don't have a supportable os"
<[TheBug]>
Vendors see the finish line as delivering a product instead of actually delivering and supporting their product until it has fulfilled it's useful lifetime
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> sure they won't. they will lie until possible
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> and here its anyway a promise
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> they sell hardware "with something"
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> software support is magnitude more expensive then generating a pcb and moving to anothert
<stipa>
[TheBug]: you won't get far in business being moral
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> stipa: yes, you have to cheat and vendors are cheating by default.
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> Maybe if there were a glut of chips, and people could be choosy about well-supported stuff...
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> its calculated to fool you
<stipa>
yeah
<stipa>
it's hard to solve that problem
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> commercial linux distros do exectly the same. they take from community, repack and sell as their own product
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> we are not in such position. we would need to kill 80% of the project to get there
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> or more
<stipa>
yeah, i'm seeing that distros fight against each other for users
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> for us, users are expense
<stipa>
it's hard to see how money moves
<stipa>
in something that's free
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> and since your questions are expensive to solve, we can't satisfy you. Dietpi on the other hand - can you support "x". "is there armbian" "Yes, not a problem. Give me 5 minutes"
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> free is licence
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> my time is not free
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> if you have a problem - why don't you solve it yourself?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> you don't know? Well, google, forums, hire someone
<Armbian-Discord>
<c0rnelius> Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning 🙂
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> didn't sleep at all.
<stipa>
hehe
<stipa>
go get some sleep, i'll take over
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> "What should I buy" well, what does armbian support. Ooh, there's a bunch of orangepi stuff here, I guess I'll get the best one of those. later... "what do you mean the GPU doesn't work?"
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> you can't take over. i already tried, but nobody is willing to deal with the dirt 😉
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> Yes. Software support is never ending story end end user, who never paid for a single second of our time, wants to have fully working software.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> and doesn't asks if there are resources to get there
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> or if that is doable
<stipa>
IgorPec: i have hopes in Armbian
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> hopes for ?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> in
<stipa>
i guess the project has a potential to outlive you
<stipa>
nothing is perfect, not even computers
<IgorPec>
and how will this pay the bills?
<stipa>
idk, i always try to do the best in everything i do but that never comes
<IgorPec>
doing the best / price to pay fot that
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> Did RMS know how it would pay the bills when he wrote his first rant against a printer?
<stipa>
IgorPec: well, like all others pay the bills, cheat, pretend everything is perfect
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> nothing is perfect when our clients doesn't pay not even 1%
<stipa>
well
<stipa>
i have an idea
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> but the problem is they even try to complain and requests
<stipa>
stop the support and pretend you don't see the moans
<stipa>
ppl will respect you more
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> i stopped support long time ago. maintaining - if stopped, things will start to collaps
<stipa>
when money starts to flow do nothing, go on a vacation, buy a yacht
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> i have money, how do you thing this project is financed?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> you don't finance it
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> vendors very little
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> but i don't need that every pcs of shit on this planet have rock solid linux
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> i don't feel connected with yachts 😉
<stipa>
well, it looks like it's all the SBCs
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> SBCs are by definition cheap as possible
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> at least manufacturing them
<stipa>
well, that's what all others in the chain do
<stipa>
they sell crap on wich code can't work
<stipa>
and they don't do support
<stipa>
you do the same
<stipa>
and you'll get the money
<stipa>
it'll be users to blame then
<stipa>
that it doesn't work
<IgorPec>
ah, not having any intention to join this crooked business
<stipa>
just be a piece of shit like averyone else
<stipa>
everyone*
<IgorPec>
selling crap is something totally different than R&D
<IgorPec>
you do one or another
<stipa>
R&D is the whole chain in one place
<stipa>
from materials to the user giving his money for the product
<stipa>
even the user mentality
<stipa>
i would say that "cheating" is the mentality part
<stipa>
and a part of mostly every R&D nowadays
<stipa>
from the POV of R&D you would choose sales team that fits the plan of the R&D
<stipa>
and if shit hits the fan you would choose a not so moral sales team just to recoup the investment
<stipa>
for some reason, in the ARM SBC business it always hits
<stipa>
hardware is not for free
<stipa>
it seems like it's what the SBC vendor provides regarding linux image is what you get
<stipa>
if something doesn't work that's it, of course after you buy it and try it out
<stipa>
if it doesn't work the first time there's no point in mainlining it since the vendor couldn't make it work
<stipa>
and the stuff that works rarely brakes with kernel upgrade
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> so... igor, would you make your own sbc?
<stipa>
there is an orange pi made in partnership with Armbian
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> how is it that the vendor (rockchip? orangepi? heck, ARM selling IP blocks?) finds it cheaper to have an internal team mess things up royally than to get good mainline support?
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> which?
<stipa>
idk, try to search the channel logs
<Armbian-Discord>
<Werner> Plus 2E IIRC
<stipa>
irc channel
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> why making own sbc? to prove that i don't know nothing in fooling people to buy hw? 🙂
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> Well, you know more than I do about, and therefore you look like an expert to me, on which chips could be better linux supported, on what an sbc needs to be able to be supported, and so on. Plus, it would give you something to sell, and therefore make money. Of course there are many problems with that.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> selling hardware and creating software support are two different things
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> didn't i mention already that i am not looking for a job.
<stipa>
well, eventually Armbian would hit the same problems like the other SBCs manufacturers do
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> yes - vendors can only generate profit if they don't invest into sw support
<stipa>
bad support with some cheap chip or chips
<stipa>
to make the SBCs cheaper
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> its not rocket science. this is how they make money
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> The conclusion I'm reaching is "never buy an ARM board"
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> if you are ok with pirated software support, why not?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> if you are making a product, buy chip , make a software support and sell the product
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> this amateur playing with sbc is a bit different
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> you are not willing to pay anything and expect that it works perfectly
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> okay, "never buy an ARM board with the expectation that it works"?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> "arm board" is way too generic term
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<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> don't expect vendors will cover your software suppor needs
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<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> I mean, I have a carrier board for an EOMA68 card around here somewhere...
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> OH WOW, there are EOMA68 Allwinner A20 boards?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> yes
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> if you want it working, don't ask armbian or vendor .... there are sources, there is technical documentations. start
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> this is how things go
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<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> most likely board will work to high degree, but some things will need somoene to adjust
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> and the same for thausands of different / custom "arm boards" electronic devices that can run linux
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> I was going to say I bought the carrier board without ever expecting it to work. (and the sata is on backward, lol.) But apparently, hardware exists for it now. But I won't ask you, igor, if I do something with it, I'll try to contribute through PRs, not requests.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> you are different kind, you understand, most don't
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> lets say general user perpective
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> ... crowdsupply confuses me sometimes. "preorders today will ship May 31, 2021"
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> this was crowdsupply thing?
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> that's what the cnx-software article linked to. Which had last update Dec 2020, and "pre-orders" for may 2021.
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<Devrim>
I'm gonna upgrade my odroid N2+ this weekend (focal -> jammy). Win32DiskImager should be able to do a proper backup and restore right in case something goes wrong?
<Devrim>
Also can I stick with kernel 5.10.x for jammy or should I upgrade to 5.15(17?) first?
<Devrim>
If I understood correctly 5.10 is optimized for odroid but 5.15 seems to be default for jammy
<IgorPec>
this is Armbian, which means relationship with Ubuntu is random.
<IgorPec>
kernel 5.10.y stays with amlogic since there are to many problems with 5.15.y
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<Devrim>
I will be using the Armbian version of Jammy ofc
<Devrim>
I will keep with 5.10 then :)
<IgorPec>
yes, exactly
<Devrim>
Backup image should work right? I wanna try multple methods of "manual" upgrade fails
<Devrim>
of=if
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> it shouldđ
<Devrim>
Thanks, I will report my results when I'm done :3
<Armbian-Discord>
image-helpers.sh:112 -> general.sh:0 ] [ error ] Device node /dev/loop0p1 does not exist [ o.k. ] Process terminated [ error ] unmount_on_exit() called! [ main.sh:1 -> image-helpers.sh:0 ] [ o.k. ] Unmounting [ /root/armbian/.tmp/rootfs-ee2821f1-559c-4dcb-92d0-c33a12a3be80/ ] [ error ] ERROR in function unmount_on_exit [ main.sh:1 -> image-helpers.sh:94 -> general.sh:0 ]
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> i had this error for a few days and I am not able to compile no matter what i do
<Macer>
well. just checked on the pbp to see how much it lost being in s2idle and it was down to 3% after i don't know.. .maybe 16-18 hours of being in s2idle mode which i suppose is a little better but not nearly as decent as actual deep sleep
<Macer>
my soul for a functional sleep mode on it :)
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> is tow boot on armbian? if so then i think the pinebook pro might have real sleep
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