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<nakilon>
"Politics should have nothing to do with Ruby. That's the point." -- that's why you shouldn't care about one's personal twitter
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<nakilon>
"maybe you should shut up about it as a rich white dude " -- you shouldn't care about his skin color
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<ripsum>
I pointed out the fragility of their comments the other day but they just ignored it ofcourse. Which is generally what people who can't think for themselves, and therefore can't really argue about anything do
<ripsum>
Slowly I'm reaching the conclusion that there is definitely a not insignificant chunk of the population, that doesn't really think about anything and just holds whichever view is socially expedient at the time
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<nakilon>
speaking of IRC bots, I use own gem nakiircbot -- I don't fully like the API, it does not support IRC v3 tags, but it handles the network loop and provides methods to write tests for it and to parse own logs
<nakilon>
runs a twitch for almost 2 years, it's been more stable than a Nightbot, heh
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<o0x1eef>
Like it or not, DHH represents the Ruby community and his Twitter has a wide reach (over 500k+ followers). When he defends burning The Quran as 'free speech' and other tweets that incite hatred against a group of people - usually refugees, it's going to give Ruby a bad reputation and potentially alienate people from Ruby. With that position you have to be a bit more responsible. He's not a random
<o0x1eef>
nobody and he knows it.
<o0x1eef>
I have nothing more to add on that topic. Let's go back to Ruby.
<henk>
heh, interesting example :D because the opposite might also alienate other people … in the end, everything is political and nobody can hide from it or really be "apolitical"
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<o0x1eef>
In my experience that's not entirely true. The OpenBSD community is generally neutral and expects you to leave politics at the door. Same with Matz and his tweets. Same with tenderlove. I could go on.
<o0x1eef>
#OpenBSD topic: 'Political discussions and other incendiary topics are unwelcome.'
<henk>
sure, you can make a certain space like an irc channel be apolitical. but I guess certain topics will still reach into that room and make it necessary to discuss politics regarding these topics. but spaces are not people.
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<o0x1eef>
Like I said, if you're going to be a leader in the Ruby community, and DHH is, you have to be a bit more responsible that the average joe.
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<o0x1eef>
I have nothing more to add on this. I think it proves my point. His actions only divide the community, and alienate people. That's the problem.
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<henk>
what do you mean with "more responsible"? that’s not objectively defined … IMHO it’s every person’s responsibility to uphold values that serve everybody. but that’s just my opinion I’m convinced of is the best. other people are convinced that "white" people are better than "people of color" and they are convinced it’s every person’s responsibility to make sure that "the white man
<henk>
prevails" or something.
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<o0x1eef>
I'm not going to discuss this anymore. I've said everything I can and if you disagree then we can agree to disagree.
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<henk>
yeah, this is really the wrong place for this discussion. sorry for engaging. it’s a very interesting topic and hard for me to resist …
<o0x1eef>
No worries
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<ripsum>
Nobody judges a programming language by what some random dude says on a social media site that no one normal actually cares about anyway. He's not harming the reputation of anything because no one normal actually knows who this DHH person is, and I'd bet a lot if not most people who write Ruby never even heard of the guy. If he wants to write insane shit on Twitter/X that is his lookout really, but it
<ripsum>
doesn't seem to have anything to do with Ruby imo. You are just mistakenly assuming he is representative for some reason. In summary the problem is in your head because you mistakenly believe that anything that happens on Twitter/X actually matters
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<o0x1eef>
Yeah fair enough. On a more upbeat note I have had good results w/ building a GraphQL application with Rack / Warden / ActiveRecord / ruby-graphql so far. That all lives within server/, and client/ is managed by Deno (a NodeJS alternative).
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<o0x1eef>
Fair amount of work to get it off the ground though. If it turns into something I like hopefully it can serve as the base for future projects.
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* tweaks
was excited for a big scrollog in ruby discussions! disappointed-face.png
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<tweaks>
havenwood: heh-heh-lizard.gif \o/
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<llua>
weird that people seem to think opensource software isn't a political and how varies projects is governed within the ecosystem isn't politics. down to the licenses and how they may or may not interact with each other.
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<havenwood>
llua: I'd consider license interactions legal rather than political. The choices of which licenses to adopt and related things may have a political element.
<llua>
laws are codied political policies tho
<llua>
codified*
<havenwood>
ripsum: To some extent leaders represent communities to an extent they often have the largest public mouthpiece. For example, MINISWAN. Matz is nice, so the community is nice.
<havenwood>
llua: I'd quibble with that as a philosopher and attorney. Many laws are not codified. _Just_ implies no more than and there are many non-political influences on laws.
<havenwood>
llua: Reading the backlog, consider "political" as a shorthand for "exclusionary political speech" rather than the broadest sense of having some political element. Most human endeavors have a political element but aren't just some refinement of politics.
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<havenwood>
"Matz is nice and so Ruby is nice" because it's niceness that Matz brings to the community. Matz happens to be a Mormon, but he's not closely associating Mormonism with Ruby and pushing a Mormon agenda in Ruby. They're separate. It matters. Separation of church and language is analogous.
<havenwood>
Ruby is 和. DHH is... not.
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<weaksauc_>
nakilon only mentioned it because he brings race into things all too often
<tweaks>
uh, wat
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<tweaks>
weaksauc_: i thought they were responding to you bringing race into it
<henk>
some linter says: »require 'thread' ■ Remove unnecessary `require` statement.« why is it unnecessary?
<o0x1eef>
ruby -e "p require 'thread'"
<tweaks>
unless this began before o0x1eef began the dhh twitter stuff
<henk>
same for 'pp'. I assume they are builtin now but where can I check that other than just trying?
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<o0x1eef>
require 'thread' returns false, that tells you it has already been required. You can check $LOADED_FEATURES as well.
<o0x1eef>
Yes, exactly, they're loaded for you so need to require them manually
<henk>
ok, but how do I know which ones are loaded for me? i.e. the reason why this linter says I should remove it …
<henk>
I don’t like just being told "do this". I like to understand the why ):
<o0x1eef>
$LOADED_FEATURES tell you what files have been required
<o0x1eef>
=>
<o0x1eef>
["enumerator.so",
<o0x1eef>
"thread.rb",
<o0x1eef>
... etc
<henk>
hm, yes. ok, so `p $LOADED_FEATURES` in irb includes thread. but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is always loaded, might just be irb loading it …
<o0x1eef>
It might not be documented (yet) :) Generally there's a concept of "core classes", and anything that's available without it being required is considered to be part of "core Ruby". Thread is now included in that.
<henk>
o0x1eef: yeah, sure, but is that really how this is supposed to be? o_O it seems weird that the linter only tells me "do X" and I have to either believe it and blindly follow this instruction without understanding or I have to guess or assume something and then test that assumption.
<o0x1eef>
PP is not a core class AFAIK. But irb depends on it. Maybe why?
<o0x1eef>
If you want a clean environment then go with 'ruby yourtest.rb'
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<henk>
hrm, is there any pastebin that _runs_ ruby code?
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<o0x1eef>
Yep we have a bot
<o0x1eef>
I'm not sure how it works though :D
<henk>
ruby[bot]: help
<o0x1eef>
>> p $LOADED_FEATURES
<ruby[bot]>
o0x1eef: # => ["enumerator.so", "thread.rb", "rational.so", "complex.so", "ruby2_keywords.rb", "/usr/lib/ruby/3.0. ...check link for more (https://carc.in/#/r/hp6x)
<henk>
>> p require 'pp' ; PP.singleline_pp Object.new
<henk>
and through but I don’t see anything about it
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<henk>
neither for 2.4.0
<o0x1eef>
I think the next step would be to clone the repo and grep through the source / git log
<henk>
already trying that
<henk>
just have only very vague ideas how to get there … grepped for LOADED_FEATURES but not sure that is the best approch
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<henk>
god, this seems stupid … shouldn’t be so hard to find when such a major change was made, should it?
<o0x1eef>
git log --grep thread.rb
<o0x1eef>
thread_sync.c looks like it might be relevant
<o0x1eef>
Nothing obvious stands out but understanding how 'core' classes are made available to Ruby would be a cool experiment
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<o0x1eef>
Ah - so in thread_sync.c, you have rb_provide_feature("thread.rb") towards the end of the file, and then in load.c you have the implementation for rb_provide_feature: https://github.com/ruby/ruby/blob/master/load.c#L693-L711
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<henk>
hm, so 0de5e1cb87 is the commit?
<henk>
ok, enough time wasted on this … I’ll leave the line in. FTS
<o0x1eef>
I'd go with 2.1 based on the NEWS entry, unless there's something more convincing. 'rb_provide' just appears to handle $LOADED_FEATURES in one way or the other.
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<henk>
yeah. it just makes me sad that we have to SWAG this and/or sourcedive and that there is no simpler way to figure this out /-:
<o0x1eef>
Yeah that's gotten a lot better, in the same way Ruby documentation has. It use to be much more bleak. So I think we're headed in the right direction.
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