<stolen>
can segmentation lead to internal fragmentation?
<geist>
well, possibly, depends.
<geist>
depends on exactly what you mean
<stolen>
internal frag is when i give it more memory than it needs and then that memory is blocked
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<\Test_User>
under what kind of usage? if you allocate multiple things per segment then free something in the middle, yeah, the segment can't be resized to fit via segmentation alone. if you allocate one object per segment, you can still count your ldt/whatnot having unused freed entries in the middle as fragmentation, which is also not fixable via segmentation alone
<\Test_User>
I say "via segmentation alone" because you can use it in combination with paging (x86 lets you do this even, iirc) or such; though page tables can also exhibit similar (though less distinct) properties regarding the latter case (pick some addresses to map that use the whole chain all to themselves, can't merge them without changing the address), and all the same for the former case if you just
<\Test_User>
replace that with "per page"
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* cloudowind
turns left
<cloudowind>
wow geist you do use ais too , well , why wouldnt you
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<nikolar>
because they suck?
<cloudowind>
if i had these tools back 20 years ago i was using my own os already
<cloudowind>
we were begging people to learn something
<cloudowind>
but i am afraid now , for those younger generation that they will have a lazy brain or a section of their brain quite lazy and wont function maybe withoth these i dont know , you guys have a beautiful day i going for sleep
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<kof673>
the same thing was said when writing came out....but that is after they already didn't learn hieroglyphs :D
<kof673>
its already a few thousand years into this laziness :D
<the_oz>
"we execute a switch operation on an object(the domain)."
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<the_oz>
>should have stayed in mathematics, professor
<stolen>
wow the domain is also an object, that is kind of a rivalling thought
<kof673>
it seems inverse of unix in a way...there, a file has user/group/other r/w/x and owner:group ........this has a domain/process/"user" which then can either r/w/x/whatever a file or other resource
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<kof673>
not saying that is good or bad, but ... i have 10,000 files. am i going to make permissions for each domain? only needs "positive" (access) rather than "negative" (deny) perhaps, but the crippled beleagured ghetto budget unix thing is compact in a way, but not as powerful :D
<kof673>
you could do filename patterns or something i suppose. or ....access propagates down a directory to subdirectories or whatever....... the link just says "file" which....is that a filename/path?
<the_oz>
I assume that transforms(switches) get performed by a transformer(switcher (user)) that has a default transformation
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<the_oz>
the domain has an access control list table
<the_oz>
*drones on and on and on*
<the_oz>
abstraction is a mistake
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<stolen>
for linked list allocation if we need N blocks then for the same file do we need N+1 blocks?
<heat>
what
<stolen>
allocation methods for storing files
<kof673>
yes, the link uses "user"/"process" so would seem to be a process starts in one domain, then there is a list of other domains it can switch to, and that new domain has a list of what it can switch to, etc. i am not sure how unix handles a user in multiple groups, at the process level....and then throw in setuid/setgid for completeness
<kof673>
it is more fine-grained than unix anyways
<kof673>
and you could setup a "chain" i guess of allowed switches, like a ...state machine :D
<the_oz>
then the "processor" can "iterate"
<the_oz>
the "algorithm" is the best, in theory
<the_oz>
*waggles hands*
<kof673>
and still have to decide how to handle: process opens a file in the default domain the process started in, switches to another domain where access to that file is not granted......what happens to the "file descriptor" or equivalent? can they switch back to another domain and then access is still allowed to that file, or do they need to re-open it?
<kof673>
*can they later switch to a 3rd domain, where access to that file is allowed again
<kof673>
that is my understanding of that link anyways...
<Ermine>
is today the day when everyone posts using chatgpt?
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<kof673>
not saying that is bad, but "show me the code!"
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<immibis>
I made a website using chatgpt yesterday. It's quite impressive. https://where.cellsinter.link/chatgpt.html and I just modified the pages to link them together (or not). The objectively best page is number 11.
<bslsk05>
where.cellsinter.link: Where Cells Interlink
<kof673>
i am not criticizing the idea, just "operating systems do this" [TBD: link to actual OS that works this way, left as an exercise for the reader]
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<the_oz>
yup
<kof673>
posix has some acl stuff i think...but it is atop whatever layer of unix cruft :D there is a layer of sludge beneath whatever the modern stuff does :D
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<heat>
Ermine, yes
<zid`>
today is don't take your meds day
<heat>
sorry
<heat>
It seems like everyone is hopping on the ChatGPT bandwagon today! 🚀 Let me know if there’s something fun or unique I can help you craft.
<the_oz>
Strange, every time this dumb monkey encounters unusual language especially ignorance thereof they start babel-ing about medicine
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<the_oz>
Lacking accreditation even in their own professed religion!
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<nikolar>
zid`: shall we get our own llm bots to participate in these conversations
<nikolar>
seems like everyone else is doing that
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<zid`>
nikolar: I'm sorry, I couldn't understand that query. This service may be down, try again later.
<nikolar>
kek
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<heat>
chatgpt says the ZIL is only used for synchronous writes. fun.
<zid`>
how much pee does it think zil should drink?
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<heat>
all of it is the only correct answer
<heat>
The ZIL (ZFS Intent Log) doesn’t "drink pee"—it’s a computer storage construct, not a living thing. 😅 If you’re asking about how much data a ZIL should handle, the answer depends on your system's synchronous write workload.
<heat>
chatgpt is wrong
<zid`>
So it depends on your system's synchrous write workload as to how much pee to feed it
<the_oz>
omg it's using emoticons
<heat>
If the ZIL were somehow a pee-drinking entity (a truly creative reimagining of storage systems!), I’d argue it should only drink as much as it can handle without causing latency or performance degradation—say, a carefully optimized stream of "pee" aligned with the write throughput of the system. 😂
<heat>
ah there we go
<the_oz>
ai was a mistake, go back
<the_oz>
it has trained itself on the most retarded prevalent ;_;
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<heat>
ai was not a mistake, i've now become more pro-ai than ever before
<heat>
it shitposts way better than i can ever dream of
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<heat>
or better, peeposts
<the_oz>
*eyes the suspicious block for acting suspiciously synchronized*
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<heat>
i think it's great how zfs people reinvented journals but called it a fancy name
<heat>
it's very on-brand
<heat>
ZIL SLOG, or as its known in ext4 circles: journal on a separate device
<heat>
fuckin rocket science
<the_oz>
separate vdev
<the_oz>
:)
<the_oz>
cult speak, yes
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<nikolar>
heat that's literally what it's called
<nikolar>
Secondary log
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<heat>
separate
<zid`>
slick
<heat>
also the ARC: also known as the page cache
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<the_oz>
slick lick of glick
<heat>
zfs people are stealing a living by obfuscating their shit
<the_oz>
cries the purple belly, angry at the yellow toeds
<nikolar>
heat you've woken up the LLM
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<kof673>
i propose unicode glyph for conway's law: Willie slugs the other lady in the jaw and grabs for the elusive diamond just as the ice buckets showers ice across the floor -- which camouflages the diamond!
<the_oz>
your idea has been granted a universal identification number, please join the queue to discover what it is as your recipient request number U+3772AEF6FF87991843003
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<cloudowind>
kof673: what do you mean by when writing came out ? like when human animal started to express their inside to the stones and etc via art first then writing? uhm "ramps are expensive" right , each interaction with those ai tools comes with aq cost of a carbon footprint
<cloudowind>
you guys have a goodays i hope
<the_oz>
I assume he's talking about the ramp of technological progress with regards especially to communication like a million years or whatever to etch a sketch on the wall current year and what you see then hundreds of years to have runic alkphabets then 10's of years of script then 2's of digital then months of what ... ai comms?
<the_oz>
but who knows, head of exploding lemons
<cloudowind>
ok , they are asking geofrey on a show to the person know as "god father of ai" , they ask him what is his advice to those young programmers and he goes : i suggest them work on the ways to stop this thing if this thing gets out of control"
<cloudowind>
*known
<cloudowind>
and i am like what?
<the_oz>
why on earth would you ask a stupid human what to do about a killer AI
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<the_oz>
ask a competing killer ai
<cloudowind>
withoth the questions he seems a bit worried and in many occasions expressing this fear for some reason
<cloudowind>
and i know as i said each of our interaction with those tools come with cost of carbon foot print , each execution is energy
<cloudowind>
anyway before geist kicks us , i do go , you have a good one oz buddy hey by the way i am in merbein victoria
<the_oz>
Ah, Canadia. No wonder you still think CO2 is bad.
<the_oz>
>*looks it up and realizes I am stupid*
<kof673>
cloudowind, there were people circa middle ages worried that writing would make people "lazy". but didn't save the link, and there is a similar older plato / phaedrus / socrates story that blamed thoth for wanting to spread cadmean letters, when in fact, the egyptians told the greeks not to translate from hieroglyphs :D
<kof673>
greek stuff were not all liars, but .........they didn't expect the masses to know anything :D
<the_oz>
I heard just recently that plato didn't want people to read because they didn't internalize or some shit
<kof673>
i think all "history" if you go back far enough, just turns into myths.......noone knows, or they ain't talking :D
<kof673>
yes
<kof673>
and plato is not all bad, but thoth was double-sided wisdom.........the story makes it sounds like he was an idiot lol
<kof673>
if there was anyone who understood "two-edged sword" it would be thoth the moon god that waxes and wanes lol
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<kof673>
thoth was literally black and white, two-sided....there was no singular version lol it may just be a horrible translation :D
<the_oz>
I also didn't know they commented on thoth
<the_oz>
I thought thoth was myth of some kind, whether 16 century or ruored to be 16th century but really crowleyan or etc
<heat>
someone woke up and said "i'm going to use a GNU extension today, for no reason"
<nikolar>
where did you find that
<childlikempress>
come on
<childlikempress>
c syntax for function pointer types is literally impossible
<childlikempress>
you cant fault them for that
<nikolar>
they aren't impossible
<nikolar>
they are not that hard actually
<zid`>
They're.. really easy lol
<nikolar>
yea
<zid`>
you just put the identifier in brackets
<nikolar>
and a *
<sortie>
int (*func)(const char*) = childlikempress;
<childlikempress>
> brackets
<zid`>
is pointer, nikolar
<zid`>
ofc it has a *
<childlikempress>
brit detected, opinion invalid
<zid`>
cunt detected
<nikolar>
kek
<childlikempress>
🥰
<sortie>
But it gets real funky if it accepts a function pointer as a parameter or returns one
<sortie>
void (*signal(int, void (*)(int)))(int);
<nikolar>
accepting is easy
<zid`>
yea it just gets really.. grammar dense, if yuou need to return one etc
<nikolar>
returning is annoying
<zid`>
the parse is easy as hell
<heat>
nikolar, linix
<zid`>
it's just a LOT of symbols very tightly packed
<nikolar>
heat: lol really
<heat>
yes
<nikolar>
kekkers
<zid`>
but how are you going to avoid that? even if the syntax was different, you still need (DWORD, LPCSTR, LPCSTR, DWORD, int, int, int, int, HWND, HMENU, HISTANCE, LPVOID) somewhere
<zid`>
bonus points: Name that function ^
<heat>
WinMain?
<zid`>
bzzt
<nikolar>
zid`: __auto_type apparently
<zid`>
WinMain is HINSTANCE, HINSTANCE, LPSTR, int
<the_oz>
typedef
<nikolar>
the_oz: you still have to have the type in the typedef definition
<zid`>
which is just main + 2 hinstances
<heat>
CreateWindowExW
<nikolar>
you aren't avoiding writin it
<heat>
i did not cheat
<nikolar>
kek
<heat>
i swear boss
<zid`>
heat: A
<heat>
DAMN
<zid`>
sorry you lose
<heat>
sorry i only use the win32 utf-8 mode
<zid`>
same, A :P
<zid`>
"use A and pretend everything is utf-8"
<heat>
sorry i exclusively use the win32 utf-16 mode
<heat>
i am famously a big utf-16 supporter
<the_oz>
you do write it, but you easily separate the parts
<nikolar>
zid`: wasn't there a utf-8 code page or something
<heat>
i yearn for the surrogate pairs
<nikolar>
that was half broken
<zid`>
surrogate my pairs daddy
<Ermine>
> WinMain --- only CrtMain, only hardcore!
<zid`>
char (*(*x())[5])()
<zid`>
my favourite
<zid`>
function returning pointer to array 5 of pointer to function returning char
<nikolar>
an array of 5 functions returning char *
<nikolar>
taht
<heat>
>A handle to the previous instance of the application. This parameter is always NULL
<zid`>
LEGACY
<heat>
windows is tha best
<nikolar>
da
<heat>
niet
<zid`>
That's the special 'for workgroups' HINSTANCE
<nikolar>
*windows is da best
<heat>
windows is niet best
<zid`>
before that handle got added it was just windows
<Ermine>
if you do /nostdlib your entry point is CrtMain somewhy
<heat>
winmain is actually the stupidest shit ever
<heat>
as is half of win32 but dont tell the windows fans that (m'overlapped IO)
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<zid`>
I always have to fight SDL to get it linked right because of winmain to be fair
<zid`>
Yu need to -lSDLmain
<zid`>
in the right place
<heat>
use a proper linker like lld
<nikolar>
heat: noooo, don't shittalk windows
* Ermine
puts windows fan hat on
<Ermine>
win32 is da best
<heat>
overlapped IO has zero runtime cost
<heat>
as in it has executed 0 times for 0ns over the last 10 years
<nikolar>
kek
<heat>
overlapped IO is async IO for people that never did nor do async IO
<heat>
IOCP is overlapped IO for non-poll users
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<heat>
also win32 mutexes suck, handles suck, sockets suck
<heat>
and they had to implement some parts of UNIX like 2 or 3 times across the whole subsystem because of course
<heat>
here's select but it only works on winsocks
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<zid`>
select has MAX_FDS set to 32 :D
<zid`>
I found that out the hard way
<heat>
they patented WaitOnAddress after 30 years of futexes existing in linux
<heat>
also what if on every small IO read it actually ran a whole AV scanner in the background, usually impossible to turn off
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<Ermine>
and yet nobody waits for the year of the windows desktop
<nikolar>
kek
<zid`>
yea but what if CreateProcessEx made a security bitmap using O(N^2) alg
<Ermine>
win32 mutexes can be global. Though unix has lock files
<zid`>
I used a mutex on windows once
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<zid`>
by which I mean I hex edited a program to stop checking a mutex because it was stopping me running multiple copies of the program
<nikolar>
lol
<Ermine>
i used that mutex *exactly* to prevent user from running multiple copies of the program
<zid`>
tough shit, I want to run SIX theme parks
<zid`>
not ONE
<nikolar>
lol
<nikolar>
verbotten
<Ermine>
and i want to NtSetTimerResolution only once
<zid`>
It doesn't explode if you call it twice
<the_oz>
run SIX six flags
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<Ermine>
okay, but it also leaves an icon in the system tray
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<zid`>
heat: DO YOU WISH TO TURN CARET BROWSING ON?