klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<SophiaNya> mjg: gjm
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<kof123> the notorius mjg
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<gorenbk> i have joined ring 0
<gorenbk> there is nothing you can do to stop me
<zid> surely one has to *leave* ring0
<zid> It's like a cult, you have to fight for your right to leave
<gorenbk> zid: i will send you back down to ring 3 if you doubt the ring 0 gods again
<zid> I'm already there, left the cult a while back
<gorenbk> zid, dont call it a cult
<gorenbk> the wrong people might here
<gorenbk> impressionable young minds ready to be shaped
<gorenbk> you dont want them to leave, do you?
<heat> escape the matrix
<heat> join the redpilled ring -1
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<gorenbk> heat_, ring -1? you really think that you'll be to join them? some people have been doing paperwork for decades...
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<geist> ah figured out what was crashing the vt320: it's the sequence to set the terminal title
<geist> turned that off and it works fine. not great, because 9600 baud is too slow
<zid> 9600 baud is advanced slow
<geist> takes 2 or 3 seconds to draw the screen
<zid> I can type 9600 baud
<geist> good question. looks like the fastest typers are in the 200 WPM range, but what is that characters per second
<zid> which end is being too slow btw
<zid> the vt broke, or whatever you're talking to it with?
<geist> seemd to really piss off the VT
<geist> though maybe crashed the tty in the kernel, dunno
<zid> 9600 is afaik the 'default' designed to work with anything speed, and you're supposed to go into the menu and change it to.. something useful
<zid> and set the parity etc
<geist> it makes sense, the nyancat program was sending the term title escape sequence, even if the terminal didn't grok it
<geist> so it probably put it in a bad place according to vt320
<zid> oh this is the old bsd thing as the talker?
<geist> yes, a vt320 plugged into a PDP11 running nyancat. gimme a sec, will have pic
<zid> Can't say I know how to make sure the term type is set correctly etc on a 'old bsd thingy' sadly :D
<bslsk05> ​redirect -> photos.google.com: Shared album - Travis Geiselbrecht - Google Photos
<GeDaMo> Looks like nyancat sends ANSI escapes directly without looking at termcap or whatever
<kazinsal> 10/10, no notes
<zid> ah right
<zid> that'd absolutely do it yea
<zid> needs porting to vt320 specifically then
<kazinsal> love that the whole thing is sitting on top of a VAXserver and there's a SUN box there as wel
<geist> well, no it has an ability to select a vt220 mode, etc, it's just the 'do i send the window escape sequence' is a separate switch
<geist> that i also needed to turn off
<geist> kazinsal: and the altair just off to the side
<kazinsal> truly I need to get a job in the seattle area solely for the vintage computer access
<geist> it's nothing like it was in the bay area, but then that was also bay area 10 years ago or so. the getting is generally not as good
<geist> because the market has heated up so lots of folks are capitalizing on it
<kazinsal> the getting north of the 49th is basically zilch
<kazinsal> gotta buy stuff off ebay from across the continent
<kazinsal> which is pretty much a gamble if what you're buying has a CRT
<geist> yah honestly i dont want to get anyone to ship a CRT. it's almost doing everyone a disservice, since there's a good chance it'll be broken
<geist> and then taken out of circulation permanently
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<zid> They're fairly hard to *break* but it's easy to end up with a dead solder joint or whatever
<zid> from all the shaking
<zid> they gots a lot of inertia
<geist> you'd be surprised. lots of them get terribly smashed up
<kazinsal> I've gotten one intact safely but it was a Mac Classic and the seller shaped a bunch of foam around it perfectly to fit the box
<geist> yoke falls off, bounces around in the box
<geist> basically what i've been told is box whatever you have such that you should be able to kick it down a flight of stairs and survive
<kazinsal> but at some point I'd like to grab a 5160 + display and that will be a "drive down to seattle and back" acquisition
<zid> I've seen CRTs survive that without a box :D
<zid> plastic was absolutely demolished
* geist watches videos of iceland
<zid> but the tube was fine
<GeDaMo> Is gog affected by the current volcano?
<geist> stuff bouncing around is another problem that happens a lot. someone ships an apple 2 or an IBM PC and the ISA cards or whatnot just bounce around inside it
<geist> and destroys the motherboard
<zid> yea I'd defo unplug, or fill the entire case with peanuts
<zid> if shipping something with cards
<geist> GeDaMo: I dunno! I just learned about the iceland situation a few hours ago
<zid> thousands of earthquakes, small village in the sw evacuated in case the volcano there goes, from what I can see
<bslsk05> ​www.theguardian.com: Iceland: experts predict feared volcanic eruption could destroy town near Reykjavik | Iceland | The Guardian
<geist> yeah it's only like 50km from reykjavik
<zid> that's like, almost the entire country away
<GeDaMo> I feel like gog's on the other side of Reykjavik
<zid> I also, have a deep political schism with the views of reykjavik
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<geist> did a gog arrive?
* gog hops up on the table
<gog> mrrrrp
<geist> that's how you escape the lava flow through the kitchen?
<gog> yes
<kazinsal> we have a confirmed gog sighting
<geist> i'm literally staring at like 4 separate cameras of iceland
<kazinsal> I'm doing saturday night intoxicated movie night myself
<kazinsal> first was Raiders of the Lost Ark, then Death Wish, now just starting Stargate
<klange> The film?
<klange> Skip it and just watch SG-1.
<klange> That'll fill your intoxicated viewing nights for weeks to come.
<kazinsal> I am a big fan of the original film
<klange> shol'va
<kazinsal> RDA is the O'Neill of my heart but the original film is just so good
<kazinsal> I've watched all of SG-1 through the Farscapegate era but I will forever love the Emmerich film
<klange> Despite being a massive fan of the franchise, I really have to say my preferred Emmerich film is Independence Day.
<kazinsal> It's been a while since I've watched that so on account of this weekend being a long weekend, I should make that a Special Edition Sunday of intoxicated movie night
<kazinsal> welcome to earf
<geist> klange: in case you missed it from before https://photos.app.goo.gl/BZ1YTPMqF2mPkAKG8
<bslsk05> ​redirect -> photos.google.com: Shared album - Travis Geiselbrecht - Google Photos
<klange> nice
<geist> alas 9600 baud is not too great for that
<kazinsal> geist has been doing the levels of unironic vintage machine hackery we all aspire to accomplish
<klange> I can imagine
<gog> nyan cat
<klange> The 220 did 19200
* kazinsal hugs gog
* gog hug
<kazinsal> nyan~
<gog> nyan~
<geist> yeah i will try to bump it to 19200 at so0mepoint
<gog> i've only been to grindavík once
<gog> there's a nice cafe there
<kazinsal> once either a) work calms down or b) I get laid off and can spend a few months doing fun things I'll go back to my XT-class unix system project
<kazinsal> considering about ten days ago my director and the PMO director got laid off in one fell swoop I'm expecting the latter
<gog> oof
<kazinsal> I bought a lottery ticket to try to accelerate the happening but it didn't work :(
<netbsduser> i hope you'll at least get a nice redundancy payout
<kazinsal> I'm poking my resume around locally to see what happens at least
<kazinsal> shame I don't have a proper degree or any sort of CS diploma
<geist> ah this explains it: the KDJ11-D manual says the baud rate cannot be configured by software, must be set by jumpers
<geist> i had tried to set the baud with `stty` and whatnot before but it never worked
<kazinsal> interesting, so you need to hardcode a higher speed and "burn it in" with jumpers
<klange> I finally bothered to implement support for setting baud rates through termios a couple weeks ago.
<klange> I haven't actually tested it on real hardware as I don't have any.
<klange> Maybe possibly one of my old motherboards downstairs has a header...
<klange> (And I do have a USB adapter available for the other end...)
<klange> > a couple weeks ago
<klange> shit that was over a month ago now
<klange> my sense of time is screwed
<kazinsal> I think my AM4 board that I'm chatting through has a serial header but I haven't done anything with it
<klange> The most disappointing thing has been my thinkpad not having serial.
<mjg> :p
<klange> Old enough to still be pre-UEFI, new enough to not have serial... :(
<mjg> you larping early 00s?
<mjg> my old-ass laptop does not even have a dvd reader
<klange> My ThinkPad has a bluray drive :)
<kazinsal> I've got a few machines around that have serial but somehow my most recent machine that "does serial" is actually a modern M1 macbook air with a USB-C to serial adapter
<klange> (I swapped it from a USB3 unit that uses the same bay format)
<kazinsal> I've rescued a few cutovers at 4am with it
<mjg> what are the realities of usinb usb to serial adapters here?
<mjg> do they work?
<kazinsal> sometimes yeah they Just Work
<kazinsal> early generations of them were absolute garbage
<kazinsal> but usually now you can just grab one off amazon and it doesn't suck
<gog> meow
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* kazinsal pets gog
* gog prr
<zid> igneous or sedimentary?
<kazinsal> good girl
<zid> Oh god, metamorphic?
<zid> Gneiss.
<gog> huehue
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<bslsk05> ​mail-index.netbsd.org: re: benchmark results on ryzen 3950x with netbsd-9, -current, and -current (no DIAGNOSTIC)
<heat_> performan
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<heat_> oh my god they even benched the vax build
<mjg> i know
<mjg> i was "there" when this work was happening
<mjg> the part the guy is missing is that while they got a massive improvement
<mjg> things still suck
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<heat_> mjg, how much suck?
<heat_> 3950x is 32-threads, not bad
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<heat_> >Switched the kernel's file path lookup cache to use faster per-directory red-black trees.
<heat_> i swear to god
<heat_> the crapper is pessimal
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<mcrod> pessimal
<mjg> heat: i don't remember exactly, apart from basically bad
<mjg> heat: probably onyx-esque
<mjg> here is something
<bslsk05> ​addons.mozilla.org: Hide Youtube-Shorts – Get this Extension for 🦊 Firefox (en-US)
<heat> onyx isn't bad :(
<heat> screw you bud
<mcrod> oh my god
<mcrod> i love you mjg
<mcrod> they're gone
<mcrod> i could cry
<heat> i don't use moshitta firecrap
<mcrod> they have a chrome extension
<GeDaMo> You might not need a whole extension, a rule in your ad blocker might work
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<heat> ok im ideally positioned to decrapify the crapper that is my IO writeback system
<mjg> aight mofos
<mjg> i declare a win
<mjg> > Our largest filesystem (551 million objects) was taking 12+ hours to scan every night, and last night it took only 128 minutes.
<mjg> after my FIXEN
<mjg> funny thing about it is that things *still* suck
<heat> for what system of filen
<mjg> Z F S
<heat> cringen
<mjg> oh i remember
<mjg> netbsd vfs is doing exclusive vnode locking all over
<mjg> that hackery added above dodges vnode locks for intemediate path components so lookup does not outright suckkk
<mjg> but you are still getting shafted for terminal vnodes
<mjg> and of course all of this does not scale anyway
<mjg> cause massive ping pongs on root vnode et al
<mcrod> hm
<mcrod> i might actually release something by the end of the week for the first time in my life
<geist> ooooh vax
<geist> i wonder what he actually ran on
<heat> i think it's just a VAX build, not a build on the VAX
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<geist> probably
<geist> 18m is too fast :)
<gog> hi
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<geist> lo!
<heat_> gog
<gog> heat
<gog> geist
<zid> hark!
<geist> you are not in lava yet
<Ermine> hi gog, may I pet you
<gog> Ermine: yes
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* Ermine pets gog
<gog> no there's no volcano currently
<zid> so where is your pickaxe
<zid> why are you not helping
<geist> watching a live stream of the lava not happening right now
<zid> iceland won't grow to consume the entire north sea with you lazing around like this
<gog> but i'm le tired
<Ermine> mjg: what fixen
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* gog prr
<mjg> Ermine: freebsd so presumably of no interest ;)
<mjg> >
<mjg> Please, stop this madness. Just accept that sparse is a stupid tool and
<mjg> the code is actually fine.
<mjg> hehe
<heat_> fwiw
<heat_> that guy is on a linux foundation mentorship thing
<heat_> and that explains the low effort crappy patches after running automated tooling
<mjg> lol
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<mjg> cross building amd64 on a vax would be something
<mjg> now that i think about it
<Ermine> Do you have one?
* mjg makes puppy eyes at geist
<heat_> geist: i trust you are on it
<geist> not with the vaxen i have. there were much higher end ones but they need a kW of power
<geist> and i need a higher end one. i am not compiling anything remotely modern with 32MB ram
<mjg> :)
<geist> a reasonably modern gcc or clang will instantly swamp all of memory and push it into swap
<mjg> bummer, so this can't be expected to finish even in the manner of days
<geist> yah think of these vaxen as like mid to late 80s 386s
<mjg> statically linked clang binary is > 32MB btw
<mjg> :p
<mjg> (fucking insane if you ask me, but i digress)
<heat_> how is it insane?
<mjg> well 32M on a 386 would be ouf of this worls luxury
<mjg> heat_: ey genz, i get it, you think 1M is small
<mjg> i grew up on a computer which had 64K
<heat_> boss
<heat_> 32M /data/toolchains/x86_64-onyx/libexec/gcc/x86_64-onyx/12.2.0/cc1
<geist> mjg: well indeed. the vaxserver would cost like $50k in 1987
<mjg> heat_: i did not say gcc is necessarily much better
<mjg> geist: how much memory can it take?
<geist> though it's also relataively unpopulated, could be expanded with a lot more memory, storage cards, etc
<mjg> also what about cpu caches
<mjg> are they on the chip?
<geist> there is no 'on chip'
<mjg> go on
<geist> no, and something like 1KB
<mjg> heh
<geist> note this is pretty low end. at the time they were still building much higher end ones, running at 100+mhz, up to 512MB ram, etc
<geist> but this is a microwax basically, a VAXserver 3800 == microvax 3800 but with a different purpose
<geist> and a microvax of this exact calibur (K655 cpu card) is *mostly* single chip, it's using a CVAX chipset
<mjg> 512?
<mjg> what year was it again
<mjg> fucking hard drivers were smaller than that
<bslsk05> ​simh.trailing-edge.com: CVAX
<geist> 1987 for the design, i think this particular machine was like 1989
<mjg> my first pc had a scsi drive, like 650MB or some other funny number
<geist> i dont know how much ram you can put in it, says there that the max physical aspace is 1GB
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<mjg> it would take 2 slots in the case
<mjg> and would run hot af
<geist> but it;s a bunch of slots with QBUS, so you can stick more memory cards in it
<geist> i just have a single card in mine
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<geist> https://photos.app.goo.gl/6BdTRBCHmiWL6Xa88 the rightmost doublewidth card is the cpu
<bslsk05> ​redirect -> photos.google.com: Shared album - Travis Geiselbrecht - Google Photos
<geist> and i think the slot just to the left of that is a 32MB memory card
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<geist> basically it's a double wide chassis on rollers: beind the card slots is a large QBUS backplane
<geist> the entire top part is a big pile of drive bays and tape drive
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<heat_> mjg, dumbazz you around?
<mjg> where is that op to scold you for bad behavior
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<gog> meow
<heat_> mjg, ok so i just found out that the folio is always locked when handling a file page fault
<heat_> in a scale of 0 to CRAPPER how bad is this?
<Mutabah> heat_: Seem to have a slight lack of chill, eh?
<mjg> what if i told you folios DON'T SCALE
<mjg> for real
<mjg> for example you bench some execs in a scale exceeding a laptop and folios are high up there
<mjg> in terms of lock contention
<heat_> hrm
<heat_> how much does it contend?
<mjg> anyhow, i think the guy has a patchset to improve stuff
<heat_> the guy has many patch sets but this is not a folio problem, it's at least a struct page problem
<mjg> i don't remember, ask mrvn
<mjg> things are bad despite what you are told in the commercial
<heat_> dang
<heat_> it's not that bad
<heat_> i think
<mjg> in master it very much is
<mjg> you run 16 page fault cases in one thread
<mjg> on a 16 core box
<heat_> define "that bad"
<mjg> and get IDLE TIME because some of the faults still take the rwsem
<mjg> there are read vs write acquiresa
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<heat_> how CRAPPER is the freebsd locking scheme though?
<heat_> 153 #definePA_LOCK_COUNT256
<heat_> looks somewhat small
<mjg> dafaq you grepping
<mjg> pmap has per-superpage locks
<mjg> that said, they SUCK
<mjg> not only this performs way worse than linux, but it is an incredibly nasty bottleneck
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<mjg> the problem is that *any* page mapping/unmapping has to take this
<mjg> for heavily shared objects like libc contention is massive
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<mjg> i suspect the right fix is to do what others are doing: store pmaps instead of pages
<mjg> this is a lot of work to facilitate a corner cases
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<mjg> which is very bsdesque
<heat_> i'm looking at your page locks I think?
<heat_> ((struct mtx *)(&pa_lock[pa_index(pa) % PA_LOCK_COUNT]))
<heat_> so effectively 256 page locks system wide
<heat_> >store pmaps instead of pages
<heat_> wdym?
<mjg> again dafak you reading
<mjg> freebsd 4.10?
<mjg> maybe you opened some lol pmap like riscv
<bslsk05> ​grok.dragonflybsd.org: vm_page.h (revision 95ee2897) - OpenGrok cross reference for /freebsd/sys/vm/vm_page.h
<mjg> that shit is unused
<mjg> stuff within a page is handled with atomics
<heat_> ah
<heat_> brilliant
<mjg> i'm gonna scold someone for not removing it
<mjg> so *that* thing indeed used to be a massive problem
<mjg> but it is fixed for yeras now
<mjg> apart from that there is hand-rolled per-page locking
<mjg> aka "page busy"
<mjg> it is beyond terrible with xlocking for page faults