<bslsk05>
github.com: rpi-tools/keyboard-proxy/main.c at master · librerpi/rpi-tools · GitHub
<heat>
yeah returning is more accurate
<clever>
you pass read() the pointer to an array of `struct input_event`
<clever>
and the kernel will then populate one or more entries in the array, and return the number of bytes filled
<clever>
the events then have a type like EV_KEY, and a code like KEY_LEFTCTRL
<zid>
The problem with a braindead interface like this will be multiple programs at once trying to read input, and the concept of a 'focus' etc
<ripsquid>
I don't think this OS will get more use than running one user-land software if even that. It is made as a school project and the most important part of the school work is just writing about how we decided to implement stuff
<zid>
to determine who gets to read that event
<zid>
so you can add that to your writeup :P
<clever>
zid: yeah, thats where X comes in, it reads one stream, and then relays it on over another protocol, based on focus
<zid>
"cons: .."
<heat>
time for one of Heat's Fun Facts: evdev does not properly handle readv()
<zid>
even the kernel has to do it though clever, because of ttys
<clever>
and this libinput scheme doesnt play nicely with virtual tty's
<zid>
does it go to /dev/tty1 or /dev/tty2?
<zid>
I don't want my root login to end up inside someone's bash session :P
<ripsquid>
That is about as complicated we would go probably
<clever>
if nothing grabs the input device, then it goes to the current virtual tty
<clever>
`evtest --grab` can eat events, so it doesnt go to bash
<clever>
ioctl(fd, EVIOCGRAB, (void*)1);
<clever>
or this from C
<zid>
That's why all input should be done over ssh
<zid>
so that I don't have to care about focus
<netbsduser>
EVDev
<zid>
the software can figure it out for itself via fork :P
<zid>
It's a kind of weird concept in general tbh, that a linux machine supports multiple users being logged in at once via a single keyboard
<zid>
on /dev/tty1, /dev/tty2 etc
<zid>
and thus has to figure out which one is in focus, which is honestly more a userland thing
<ripsquid>
Thanks for the help
<clever>
zid: fbcon has started to take over that job
<clever>
i think that was a userland program
<zid>
my agetty script definitely still runs and opens a bunch of /dev/ttys
<zid>
even with fbcon
<clever>
i heard something about linux removing some text console support
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<zid>
yea it does seem cleaner to have a single 'stdin, stdout' for the kernel though
<zid>
and you just let fbcon or X or whatever manage what application actually gets the keystrkes
<heat>
they removed vt scrolling IIRC
<netbsduser>
clever: there was a proposal by the systemd project to ditch the linux kernel console subsystem in its entirety
<netbsduser>
in its place, a systemd-consoled terminal emulator would replace it
<heat>
fuck
<clever>
netbsduser: but i would want text mode to still work, without having to install systemd
<zid>
ofc there was, it's senssible, but I have 0 trust in them doing it in a sensible way :p
<zid>
you would just have a single /dev/tty
<zid>
that repreesnts the *one* consule that you're supposed to *softare* multiplex
<netbsduser>
clever: they suggested that a single bare-minimal console would be retained, a particularly dumb and basic one
<zid>
aka if I press alt-f2 it should just do screen -x behind the scenes or whatever
<heat>
virtual terminals work well enough though?
<zid>
rather than relying on linux to effectively implement 'screen'
<zid>
internally
<zid>
just let screen/whatever do it externally
<clever>
yeah
<geist>
years ago when i did newos i did something kinda like that. i had no interest in building a whole tty layer so i just moved it out to consoled
<zid>
yea that makes the most sense
<zid>
what linux does is frankly as weird as windows rendering fonts in the kernel at the time it did that
<Matt|home>
o\
<heat>
*sad unix noises*
<geist>
idea being taht console traffic isn't fast enough for it to be in the kernel, and then its at least basically the same path for a user space gui
<zid>
There's no real reason the kernel should be treading on those toes, from a "who should handle what?" perspective
<immibis>
it's fine for a new design; putting it in systemd is the problem
<geist>
where it gets complicated is the whole connection of terminals and job control and whatnot
<immibis>
that's yet another "use systemd or go fuck yourself" moment
<geist>
so you may at least still need ptys to do it
<Matt|home>
so this is new to me.. and another reason why i kind of detest linux now.. i was gifted a new computer and apparently the intel graphics chip is so new that even the most modern up to date drivers for it are somewhat broken and im getting graphics artifacts and other junk like tearing etc.
<Matt|home>
usually it was the _opposite_ . usually it was my hardware was so old that the driver support for it died
<netbsduser>
i don't particularly like the tty, process group, session, etc code and i do want to segregate it and eventually expel it from my kernel
<zid>
intel graphics broken!?
<zid>
I am *shocked*
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<geist>
netbsduser: yeah trouble there is you now have to have a poitentially complicated scheme for tracking what of a pile of processes is currently the head, etc
<geist>
and at least if it's in the kernel it's pretty straightforward
<zid>
They're usually very good at drivers, but they just have this massive blind-spot when it comes to graphics, they've hired and fired multiple teams for it
<zid>
sometimes having multiple teams at once
<Matt|home>
friend of mine gifted me one of those small form factor computers.. it came from china so i was kinda quick to slab on debian on it since im 99.999% positive the windows version on it was cracked
<zid>
NUC?
<netbsduser>
i'd rather simplify my kernel in line with the unix philosophy: you have processes and you refer to them by file descriptors
<Matt|home>
but yeah now i have to get a windows license key and either dual boot or just virtualize it if i wanna play games
<Matt|home>
zid : something called a ...
<Matt|home>
..
<Matt|home>
one sec
<immibis>
or don't tell the cops you have it
<geist>
yah if/when i ever get arund to building more of a posix userspace on top of LK i'll definitely go in that direction since i dont really want more crap in the kernel than necessary
<netbsduser>
geist: yeah, it is troubling, especially considering how thoroughly integrated the tty code is with the process/signals code
<zid>
netbsduser: Meh, I have one process, and I refer to it by stdin/stdout, and everything else is a software illusion :P
<netbsduser>
and i like being able to run unix software easily so i can't just cast it away in favour of my own clean and new scheme
<Matt|home>
CPU is an intel N100, GPU is llvmpipe or whatever
<zid>
I want to open stdin/stdout for 'init' and run that, and have *it* run 6 copies of 'screen' that I'm wholely unaware of
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<Matt|home>
onboard graphics
<heat>
llvmpipe is software rendering
<Matt|home>
i was only half paying attention yesterday but my sister went on an hour long rant about how system daemon needs to die in a fire and all the linux fanboys are delusional.. normally i don't agree with her, but after seeing that apparently the drivers for my graphics chip were being worked on for _three years_ and im still experiencing issues
<Matt|home>
yeeeah..
<geist>
netbsduser: yeah that was probably the most educational part of doing a posixy design, discovering that
<heat>
what does systemd have to do with graphics I wonder
<netbsduser>
i can understand why it's structured as it is as well
<netbsduser>
it *works*, however inelegant it may be
<heat>
netbsduser, when are you implementing bill joy's request()
<immibis>
graphics cards don't have much to do with systemd
<Matt|home>
nothing, im just saying that there are many reasons to villify certain aspects of OS design, especially for the aging open source stuff
<Matt|home>
and not being able to play steam games makes me hate it ;_;
<netbsduser>
heat: i think you might have found something so esoteric in the history of bsd that i am not aware of it
<immibis>
run lspci and see which line looks like a graphics chip. probably labeled VGA Controller
<Matt|home>
immibis : my sister took a crack at it yesterday and basically said im sol
<netbsduser>
as to systemd they call themselves "building blocks for linux systems" so their scope is basically "everything between kernel and Google Chrome"
<Matt|home>
nbd
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<immibis>
that is absolutely the scope of systemd
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<immibis>
or what poettering wants it to be
<netbsduser>
despite this they don't even take advantage of being an integrated project
<netbsduser>
Sun had a PSARC for integrating the network configuration daemon as an SMF delegated restarter so that e.g. network interfaces would be entered into the SMF service graph and you could sequence other services against them
<netbsduser>
but systemd and systemd-networkd have no such integration, just a "network-online.target" or words to that effect - which is not very informative except in the simple case of a desktop where you care about having internet access in general
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<immibis>
you can enter network interfaces in the service graph
<immibis>
they just aren't by default
<immibis>
there are many complaints about systemd but this is a bad one
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<netbsduser>
i had no idea of this
<netbsduser>
it must be a recent feature if that's really the case now
<immibis>
what? services and dependencies were the first feature systemd did
<netbsduser>
heat: cheers for this, i will be curious to see it
<heat>
netbsduser, it's a really great pdf that documents the first ideas behind mmap and sockets
<immibis>
how can you not know systemd is a service manager with dependencies
<netbsduser>
immibis: unless it has been radically reworked systemd-networkd does not integrate with the systemd-the-service-manager's unit graph
<immibis>
oh systemd-networkd. don't have a clue
<heat>
but control(request, in, inlen, out, outlen) is like an ioctl but in text
<heat>
obviously never happened
<netbsduser>
heat: this touches on another systemd proposal
<netbsduser>
they call it "Standard FD 3"
<netbsduser>
and it's a JSON port for communicating process-to-process, kernel-to-process, and process-to-kernel, in which capacity it would replace ioctl going forward
<bslsk05>
harald.hoyer.xyz: Harald Hoyer – Varlink
<heat>
immibis, that does tend to be how systemd ideas go
<immibis>
i'm trying dbus as an RPC broker, it's surprisingly okay... interface definitions are annoying, but that seems to be an unsolved problem in RPC
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<immibis>
an RPC broker for my own thing, not a desktop
<immibis>
i'm sure lennart poettering could figure out a way to start systemd early
<immibis>
make a systemd-dbusd
<immibis>
"BUS1 was written, but turned out overly complex and was just a transport without a protocol." *describes an NIH transport but not a protocol*
<heat>
systemd-kernel
<heat>
GNU/systemd!
<immibis>
xorg used to be an extension of the kernel, with its own drivers that needed to access mmio and io ports
<immibis>
wouldn't be surprised if systemd ended up in that place
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<immibis>
Linux is normally used in combination with the systemd operating system: the whole system is basically systemd with Linux added, or systemd/Linux
<immibis>
evdev/libinput quietly took over input handling the way systemd loudly took over your whole computer, and nobody noticed
<immibis>
unpopular opinion: the best wayland compositor is xorg
<bslsk05>
redirect -> photos.google.com: Shared album - Travis Geiselbrecht - Google Photos
<kazinsal>
very nice
<immibis>
here's a silly little thought: what if you didn't need a socket to send UDP packets. wouldn't that be so weird?
<geist>
you could make a botnet with that so much easier!
<immibis>
because creating a socket is such a big hurdle
<heat>
its just so herd
<geist>
it's a herdle?
<geist>
or how bout a GNU/HURDle
<heat>
GNU Hard
<heat>
geist, anyway that's interesting. system components do use the funky IPC protobuf-like stuff right?
<geist>
yeah FIDL
<geist>
i honestly dont know what the on wire format looks like though
<heat>
i would not be surprised if the overhead from using such a thing is really negligible
<heat>
at least if you don't push it with the fancy stuff you use. i imagine things like strings may be more expensive and even trigger malloc() from the implementation
<geist>
right, precisely
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<immibis>
am i missing some messages?
<geist>
no, notingin in te last 10 minutes
<immibis>
which system's components use which funky IPC protobuf-like stuff?
<immibis>
google says FIDL is a fuschia thing
<immibis>
and you work on fuschia, at google, so that makes sense
<klange>
This weekend in random spurts of development on ToaruOS, I have finally implemented support for `syscall`.
<Mutabah>
Neat
<Mutabah>
Have fun with the required GDT layout?
<klange>
I did find that I was not as forward thinking as I should have been as I had two places with hardcoded offsets for TSS descriptors.
<klange>
But otherwise not much to write home about - ignored the possibility of compatbility mode and just duplicated my user CS into the right slot.
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<klange>
Whole thing was spurred by the passing thought that I should have all of my syscall stuff going through libc, so I had the opportunity to mess with the register ABI and stop using rcx (adopted the whole Linux layout, actually), and that opened the door to finally follow through on my commented claims that the interrupt interface was a legacy thing that would be removed :)
<klange>
Still supporting it for now, but will likely remove the code for it in a bit. Thinking of also doing the whole only-allow-libc-to-do-system-calls-at-all thing.
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<zzo38>
I read the log. Well, I don't like systemd, and I also dislike D-Bus. Fortunately, it seem enough people hate systemd to make distributions without systemd (but not enough to make one without Unicode, it seem). Someone said the best Wayland compositor is Xorg, but I think Xorg is not a Wayland compositor (but is there a way to allow it to be used as such?)
<zzo38>
My own operating system design is not POSIX though, it is difference. I intend the number of system calls is rather small; they don't need one hundred system calls.
<zzo38>
This is the documents of my ideas so far: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/osdesign.ui/dir?ci=trunk&name=draft Hopefully, if a group is made for the design then we can figure out how to improve it; and, anyone (whether or not you are involved with it) could also criticize it, as well as making suggestions.
<bslsk05>
zzo38computer.org: Unnamed Fossil Project: File List
<zzo38>
(Actually, many XDG stuff that I dislike and I think is no good)
<zzo38>
One thing in the specification I made, that I did not mention yet: The SI timestamp is actually equal to the UTC timestamp plus the number of leap seconds since the TRON epoch, although it is slightly more complicated to handle if it is during a leap second. (Well, in case of negative leap seconds you must subtract instead, but as far as I know there are no negative leap seconds.)
<zzo38>
It seem in the case of negative leap seconds, some numbers would not be valid as UTC timestamps, although they are valid SI timestamps.
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<Matt|home>
come the fuck on
<Matt|home>
can't install fucking virtualbox, can't install vmware, come the fuck on. give me a break
<Mutabah>
Oof... why can't you install?
<Matt|home>
i swear to god if i can't install qemu
<Mutabah>
Windows HyperV shenanigans?
<Matt|home>
Mutabah - because i made the mistake of updating to the newest debian version and APPARENTLY there's some _BULLSHIT_ back and forth between packages and the dev team im not aware of
<Matt|home>
does qemu have like, a graphical option or is it commandline only
<Mutabah>
Did you forget to update a source.list file?
<Mutabah>
Qemu is command-line only (on its own)
<Matt|home>
nope. i've got the sources.list file and im pretty sure it's correct
<Mutabah>
For osdev testing, it's usually just as simple as `qemu -drive diskimage.img`
<Mutabah>
Not "the", "A" - there's a bunch in source.list.d
<Matt|home>
im trying to run windows in a virtual machine for gaming, i was _hoping_ vbox could solve this for me..
<Matt|home>
Mutabah : do you know of any free/open source vm software?
<Mutabah>
well, vbox and qemu
<Mutabah>
Have you search the error you're getting intalling vbox on the internet?
<Matt|home>
yep. tl;dr the linux fanboys as usual are defending not being able to install it anymore because we're just too elite
<Mutabah>
Well, I'm trying to be helpful
<Matt|home>
im sorry, im not trying to take my anger out on you im just angry at myself and these things. this is like the fourth time today i've had a computer software failure on me
<Matt|home>
i'll come back to this later
<Mutabah>
I'm surprised it broke, as debian tends to be quite stable... but upgrades can break if you've manually installed packages
<Mutabah>
I know the feeling. Corporate IT once decided that force-reinstalling vbox was a good idea
<Mutabah>
at 10AM on a monday
<Matt|home>
i really.. really don't want to bother with the effort of doing an entirely fresh install and redownloading and installing ALL.. my software..
<Matt|home>
because even if it's not bad, even if it only takes half hour or an hour, that's STILL time spent at the keyboard
<Matt|home>
and it adds up :\
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<nortti>
< geist> though it's a 2BSD line, there are still a set of patches being developed < vaxuser> someone is writing them *now*? ← seems to be quite sporadic, but two patches have been released this year https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/UCB/2.11BSD/Patches/
<bslsk05>
www.tuhs.org: Index of /Archive/Distributions/UCB/2.11BSD/Patches
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<geist>
nortti: yep, and the install i have here only goes up to patch 451, so i need to apply some more and build
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<gog>
hi
<geist>
afternoon goggy
<gorgonical>
I've made a terrible mistake. I'm starting to look for work after my phd and revamped my website. Foolishly I put my email on it. Immediately getting spam :(
<gog>
oooooooof
<gorgonical>
I mean, at least it's vaguely related to the content on the website which is surprising
<gorgonical>
I got a supercomputing spam email
<gog>
that's why you set up a different email for that
<gog>
:D
<geist>
yeah i made that mistake long ago and there's sort of no clawing it back now
<gorgonical>
fuck
<gorgonical>
lol
<geist>
copies of resume floating around with email address on it
<geist>
but yeah i made the web page mistake back in the day when you could just do that and didn't get spammed
<gorgonical>
yeah. I mean what's to be done? It's expected to have a publicly-available cv
<geist>
well, at least cv/resume spam is usually halfway on topic
<gorgonical>
The most recent one was asking me to buy a departmental ada supercomputer
<geist>
oh did you?
<gorgonical>
I don't have that kind of authority
<gorgonical>
But I would have
<geist>
yeah it's practice for when you do
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<Ermine>
Apparently no asan on alpine :(
<gog>
my spammed email is my designated spam email now anyway
<gog>
i use it for websites i don't trust
<gog>
it's my deadname email too
<gog>
so for anything that needs that name for whatever reason
<gog>
just goes into that bucket
<geist>
yah i've tried to be a bit better about using the X+spam@gmail.com addresses
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<geist>
everything from + is ignored so you can put stuff there
<gog>
i use that trick at work when i need to register test emails
<geist>
seems like if it was more general knowledge the spammers would know to remove it
<geist>
but so far they generally dont
<nortti>
I do see some websites strip it in their e-mail form tho
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<heat_>
Ermine, musl does not support asan well
<heat_>
because raisins
<vaxuser>
have you seen sudo-rs
<vaxuser>
mofo
<heat_>
no
<heat_>
mon
<vaxuser>
ok
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<heat_>
geist, fwiw github does a good job at protecting your email
<heat_>
i don't get any spam and i keep my email in my github profile + in signed-off-by: on all my commits
<Ermine>
heat_: :'( . That means getting glibc distro on my work machine
<heat_>
finally!
<vaxuser>
glibc best libc
<Ermine>
no
<moon-child>
praise redhat
<heat_>
pessimal string opsen
<vaxuser>
glibc 2nd best libc
<heat_>
vs optimalen ifunc
<vaxuser>
minix best glibc
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<heat_>
haiku best glibc
<Ermine>
absolutely
<Ermine>
re minix glibc
<gog>
haiku
<gog>
best os
<heat_>
wait minix does glibc?
<vaxuser>
what is your opnion on other libcen
<heat_>
who are you asking that to, matthew?
<Ermine>
heat_: no, it's vaxuser teasing me I suppose
<vaxuser>
me?
<heat_>
yesen
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<vaxuser>
mofer
<moon-child>
what was that one math library called
<Ermine>
minix benchmarken when
<moon-child>
ceres?
<vaxuser>
you either stop adding -en to non-nouns
<vaxuser>
or fuck off from supposed misuse of PESSIMAL
<moon-child>
it implemented sin in terms of cexp
<moon-child>
or something
<Ermine>
benchmark is noun
<vaxuser>
i was talking to my buddy Pedro
<vaxuser>
22:42 < heat_> yesen
<vaxuser>
that said openbsd string ops are fucking PESSIMAL