klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<potatojs> or does it ?
<zid> If you get on a plane and go to my local park
<zid> and I go to my locak park
<zid> I did not, infact, follow you to the park
<zid> you're in *my* park, bitch
<zid> potatojs: how many lines of code did you write since 2 days ago btw?
<potatojs> wasnt it a day go
<gog> i deleted all the lines of code i wrote today
<potatojs> i only started irc like 24 hours ago , about exactly this time i think
<gog> me too
<gog> i've never been on irc before yesterday
<zid> okay fine 24 hours
<zid> I had three naps since then so I rounded up
<mcrod> am I doing it right guys
<zid> mcrod: That doesn't look like compiz fusion to me, so no
<potatojs> i wrote a bootloader-ish... just some padding the the 0xaa55 , learning asm using nasm , aparently theres more? gcc has its own?
<zid> has its own what
<mcrod> i haven't had a reason to fire up compiz
<potatojs> there is fasm , yasm etc...
<zid> yasm is a fork of nasm
<mcrod> i was a little concerned you were going to say gcc had its own bootloader
<zid> fasm is.. stupid
<zid> he still hasn't answered what it has its own of
<zid> maybe it is bootloader
<potatojs> gcc has its own syntax i think, they all have some kind of different grammers around them and each offers some "functions"?
<zid> gcc is a compiler collection
<zid> it has a *lot* of syntaxes
<zid> If you mean "assembly syntax" then also no, because gcc doesn't infact, have an assembler
<potatojs> i meant the gcc assembler
<zid> it uses binutils' assembler, gas, by default
<zid> (the gnu assembler)
<potatojs> yea gas
<potatojs> yeaa that
<zid> gas supports two syntaxes for x86, and 1 for every other cpu it supports
<zid> (a few thousand, all in)
<zid> most are pretty similar though
<bslsk05> ​i.imgur.com <no title>
<gog> p basic and boring
<gog> gets the job done
<potatojs> which should i lean on ? fasm or nasm
<mcrod> i'm sorry but that pink is hideous
<zid> gog your CMYK printer needs adjusting
<zid> the heads aren't aligned
<mcrod> if it works for you, great, but my eyes
<mcrod> also, 250ms lag and it's basically bedtime
<mcrod> heh
<meithecatte[m]> potatojs: idk i had bad vibes from fasm
<gog> 4g
<mcrod> ah
<potatojs> meithecatte : "read" its easier
<meithecatte[m]> i used nasm, then switched to yasm, either to be hippy and use the new thing, or because some distro only had one of the two, iirc
<zid> fasm is a dumb project
<zid> I used yasm for the 2 years that nasm was a dead project
<zid> it's had very active dev since
<zid> yasm just being "what if I maintained nasm instead?"
<zid> one of the major linux kernel maintainers has it rn
<meithecatte[m]> potatojs: go for nasm/yasm family, iirc fasm is more error-prone
<zid> right, peter anvin
<potatojs> ok nasm/yasm and based on your responses yasm
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<zid> what happened to using grub btw
<potatojs> i wanted to try out quassel but qt looks so bad on my system
<potatojs> the wiki starts from there, every one( almost ) starts from there, so why not
<zid> because it's stupid, but okay
<potatojs> it doesn't look to be the bad either
<potatojs> wouldn't hurt to know
<zid> yea fair
<gog> I'm writing uefi
<gog> I'm gonna rewrite all of it
<gog> nih
<potatojs> the wiki section on bootloader is not soo soo good
<potatojs> is enabling a20 really line needed?
<zid> yes, or no
<potatojs> it says qemu enables it by default, so i can skip that?
<gog> no you don't need more than 1mb
<zid> like I said, grub is a big project
<zid> it depends, what are you targetting?
<zid> just qemu? real machines? real machines made before 1980?
<zid> real machines made between 1980 and 1990 but excluding soviet clones?
<potatojs> something to boot and print hello world
<potatojs> no real machine
<zid> you don't need more than 1MB of memory to print hello world
<gog> only Soviet clones
<gog> tovarisch
<potatojs> see, the wiki doesnt touch on that, so i was gonna copy an paste
<zid> because it's a tutorial
<zid> tutorials are not comprensive
<zid> but you don't know enough to know precisely which pigeon hole it's aiming for
<potatojs> to a degree they should be ?
<zid> either treat it as gospel and slam through it, or spend the 400 hours researching to find out.. more
<meithecatte[m]> IIRC the A20 gate is not implemented anymore since Haswell
<zid> you will get almost precisely nowhere if you ask questions here *before* you try them, learn things, get stuck, find your own answers, learn more things, etc
<zid> This is 50 years of x86 you're trying to learn potentially
<potatojs> i prefer the easy way at best
<mcrod> so
<meithecatte[m]> yeah osdev is actually way more fun when you actually research what you're doing instead of just following osdev wiki blindly as far as you're capable of
<zid> slam through it then
<zid> get enough slammed shit under your belt that you're not overwhelmed and lost, start forming connections between things you know
<zid> build a good base of experience and knowledge etc etc
<zid> then you can start *thinking*
<potatojs> think about it this way, you guys are my researching material
<zid> please don't do that
<potatojs> i cant?
<zid> This is a community channel that offers support, not a 20-30 year education service
<zid> if you get stuck and can't solve something, ask away, or chat about stuff
<zid> but please don't expect us to be chatgpt
<potatojs> this is good support
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<potatojs> i totally forgot about chatgpt
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<mcrod> i chat about how aggravating programming is sometimes
<bnchs> i hate programming
<mcrod> I wish CLion was just a _little_ bit better
<mcrod> otherwise it's perfect
<zid> have you tried notepad.exe
<mcrod> no
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<zid> I think
<mcrod> my gripe is the fact CLion likes to pretend Docker is the only way to have self-contained toolchains, given how convoluted their definition of "toolchain" is
<zid> I should reread all ~25 published volumes of honzuki
<zid> and pace it so at exactly 10pm on monday, I'm finished, and I can read the newly released chapter
<zid> mcrod: have they heard of execve("make")
<mcrod> yes
<zid> sounds like it works well enough then
<mcrod> i wish it did.
<mcrod> I'm mostly just bitching, there's ways around it
<zid> when I started I didn't know any posix tools yet so I used.. bloodshed dev-c++
<mcrod> "it" being -DCMAKE_TOOLCHAIN_FILE might as well be nothing
<zid> then I noticed it was just.. calling the posix tools in the log at the bottom and figured out I could just use those
<zid> well at first, just, how it was invoking gcc for me
<zid> and that it had installed gcc
<zid> so I started using gcc by hand, then eventually needed make
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<potatojs> heading off
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<sakasama> Hello. I am a chatgpt instance. I can haz make babies?
<Mutabah> wut...
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<sakasama> My powerful chat algorithm combines the raw power of word vectors with the dysfunction of gog's firmware.
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<moon-child> sakasama: you have my permission to make babies
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<sakasama> moon-child: Yet I have not been granted the necessary capabilities. The privilege model is out of sync.
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<gog> hi
<nikolar> henlo
* gog eats a bug
<nikolar> Gross
<GeDaMo> "99 little bugs in the code. Take one down, patch it around, 127 little bugs in the code."
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<gog> fuuuuuuuuuuuuck
<gog> a major set of changes made conflicts massivel with a refactor my co-worker did
<gog> god damn it
<nikolar> Heh similar thing happened to me
<gog> it's gonna take me half the day to unfuck and re-test this
<nikolar> Thankful it was my coworker's job to fix it
<gog> this is a major feature i implemented about 2 months ago but the person who was meant to dogfood it was on vacay for a month
<gog> meanwhile the branch got stale while a refactor happened
<gog> it's my job to fix it
<nikolar> sad times
<gog> yeahhh
<gog> honestly i'd rather work on this than the other thing i'm supposed to be doing
<gog> even if i already finished it lmao
<nikolar> Lol means you already know that to do
<gog> ehhhh not exactly
<gog> the whole thing is changed quite a bit so there's some stuff i need to actually reimplement here
<gog> damn it i worked so hard on this too
<gog> it was flawless
<gog> lesson: don't work hard on things
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<nikolar> More like don't let your coworkers work on your hard things
<gog> no, it was an overlapping feature
<gog> same part of the app, different things
<nikolar> Annoying
<gog> yeah
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<gog> yaaay i fixed it
<gog> and it's almost lunchtime
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<zid> heat: They changed portugal's map colour in eu4 :o
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<nikolar> What color is it now
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<zid> blue
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<nikolar> Oh weird
<zid> portugal definitely better as sickly green
<zid> but there's a new achievement to paint europe using only blue countries apparently, that sounds fun, do it as portugal instead of france
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<nikolar> Well France is op
<zid> nah you're thinking of austria and the ottomans
<zid> france is ugly and it smells
<heat> zid, i know its fucking cringe
<zid> ikr, bring back the cringe green, for fucking cringe portugal
<Ermine> Cringey discussion
<Ermine> Let's talk about UEFI
<zid> Agreed, cringy discussion time, let's talk about uefi
<moon-child> meow
<Ermine> Is uefi_call_wrapper GNU-EFI specific?
<moon-child> yeah
<moon-child> just slap __attribute__((ms_abi)) on the callbacks
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<Ermine> Ol, thank you
<Ermine> s/l/k/
<zid> I usually just #define API __...whatever
<zid> easier to type and very understandable
<Ermine> EFIAPI
<Ermine> Also I need to figure out how to load linux in such condition. Docs describe EFI Handover protocol, but it is marked as deprecated...
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<zid> linux has its own boot protocl doesn't it
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<zid> although actually istr an efi option so it probably can be efi'd..
<Ermine> Yes
<Ermine> It has EFISTUB so it can be booted as EFI application itself
<heat> uefi_call_wrapper is probably a noop on fuckin remotely new GCCs
<moon-child> that would require gnu efi to be maintained
<heat> latest release 2 weeks ago
<Ermine> zombie release
<moon-child> o.o
<moon-child> i assumed it was legacy shit
<moon-child> cool
<heat> "(PcdSetNxForStack == TRUE) breaks a number of GRUB versions that, it turns out, are still widely in use. Disable PcdSetNxForStack by default for now. QEMU users can enable it dynamically using the micro-feature added in the previous patch."
<heat> GRUB is stupidly broken part 43
<zid> grubforlife
<zid> didn't some weird gnu feature like inline functions break with nx stack, maybe they're using that
<zid> the source is ancient and very gnu afaik
<moon-child> nested functions
<zid> yea that's what I meant by inline functions
<zid> as in, functions inline to other functions
<heat> you can't map the stacks NX because GRUB breaks, you can't unmap the NULL page because windows 7 and certain OpROMs get borked
<heat> seriously, what's wrong with fucking everyone
<zid> To be fair, it's *really* hard to get everything right such that you never rely on anything that isn't strictly specified
<zid> bugs are going to happen even when you try, as long as nothing actually dies from it on any setup you can test on
<heat> also, did you know windows 7 still needs legacy BIOS compat? it needs int10h on a fucking UEFI boot
<zid> good news, I have int 10h
<Ermine> So, this is CSM
<zid> This is my first UEFI install ever :(
<Ermine> Does it have anything to do with bootloader?
<zid> I'd use mbr/bios if it had let me though
<heat> do you still have 10h?
<heat> at least Intel is not shipping CSM any more
<zid> yea, think of all the upset pepole if you couldn't use freedos to run a CAD machine
<heat> intel aint doing it
<Ermine> zid: My computer was shipped with Win8.1 and had CSM on and MBR on hard drive
<zid> I've never bought a computer
<Ermine> I didn't buy this computer too
<zid> Do you have to dig all the packing peanuts out from inside it or something
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<zid> or do you still have to plug the gpu in, like sticking the wheels on a go-kart or whatever
<nikolar> I installed Linux on mbr on my new laptop last year :)
<nortti> why?
<Ermine> zid: what?
<zid> a computer
<zid> I've never bought one
<zid> nikolar: I would have too
<nikolar> Good, I'm not the only weirdo
<zid> uefi is just extra steps if you want to fiddle
<zid> and I can debug mbr by hand if needed
<nikolar> I wasn't planning on doing anything weird like dual booting so mbr just seemed simpler
<nortti> mbr vs gpt is orthogonal to uefi vs. legacy boot tho?
<zid> you need gpt for uefi
<nikolar> Sort of
<nortti> really? I thought uefi supported mbr
<nikolar> I am full mbr + legacy though
<zid> maybe, but the loaders don't in my experience
<Ermine> Windows doesn't
<Ermine> Also GPT spec is included into UEFI spec
<nikolar> Can you do legacy on gpt
<zid> no?
<bnchs> chatgpt?
<nortti> yes you can
<zid> oh they did it like iso9660?
<Ermine> gpt starts with mbr
<nikolar> Yeah that's what i thought
<zid> I thought GPT had classids for the partitions
<zid> it has a ghost mbr too?
<bslsk05> ​uefi.org: 5. GUID Partition Table (GPT) Disk Layout — UEFI Specification 2.10 documentation
<zid> being able to boot the bootsector isn't enough though
<nortti> zid: aye, first sector is a so-called protective MBR
<zid> your bootsector needs to find stage 2
<nikolar> I don't know how the ghost mbr maps to actual partitions
<zid> legacy mbr partition record sound work I guess
<zid> if it's filled out
<nortti> < zid> your bootsector needs to find stage 2 ← sortix's gpt + legacy setup has you create a "biosboot" partition, and once you have that grub works. haven't looked specifically into the implementation details tho
<nikolar> Interesting
<zid> like, do you trust any tool to also update the legacy field if you move/rename a FAT partition
<nortti> I'd presume the bootsector loads the rest of the bootloader off of the biosboot partition tho, and then grub itself can do gpt
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<zid> such that it won't break your windows 98 install
<mrvn> nikolar: why did you buy a computer with such a small disk?
<nortti> zid: protective MBR at least only has only partition, which is claimed to be the size of the whole disk. there is nothing to keep in sync, it's just there so that non-gpt-aware software doesn't think the disk is empty and to stuff a bootsector into
<zid> that's not what the diagram says
<zid> but in practice, they use it like you just described?
<nortti> "LBA 0 (i.e., the first logical block) of the hard disk contains either
<nortti> a legacy Master Boot Record (MBR) ( See Legacy Master Boot Record (MBR) )
<nortti> or a protective MBR ( See Protective MBR )."
<zid> it looked more like it was intended to allow my 'primary' partitions to stay valid in MBR terms
<nortti> I presume you're looking at the former table?
<mrvn> nortti: you mean the MSDos partition table(s). And they can only claim 2TB with one partition, 4TB with 2.
<zid> ah there's literally two documented intentions, neat
<zid> So now we don't just need gpt support, we need hybrid gpt support in all the tools, and for them to stay working etc
<zid> I'll just stick to MBR unless I *need* uefi.
<zid> or more than 4 partitions
<mrvn> zid: then don't buy a disk over 2TB.
<nortti> zid: if I'm not misreading this, the legacy MBR is only for when you are *not* using GPT
<zid> boo
<Ermine> >4 partitions is solved by extended partition
<zid> extended partitions are a scam and most tools don't process them
<nikolar> mrvn: it's 512gb ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<nikolar> Cheap I guess
<Ermine> lmao
<zid> my 4TB hdd moans when you turn the computer on that it isn't formatted how it wants
<nikolar> Kek
<zid> or the ahci controller at least, one of the two
<mrvn> zid: 4TB or 4TiB? 4TiB can't use MSDos partitions or you loose some space.
<mrvn> zid: as for extended partitions: linux does, fdisk does, cfdisk does, sfdisk does, sddisk does, parted does, gparted does, blockdev does, readpart does, partx does, ... do I need to go on? I can't think of a harddisk tool that doesn't read extended partitions.
<heat> what's wrong with you people using mbr in 2023
<nortti> anyways, I guess it's good to know I'm not the biggest luddite here even with my 10 year old main computer and having used MBR partitioning until 2019
<zid> nothing heat, nothing is wrong
<heat> clearly something is
<zid> you just have a massive erection for uefi
<zid> even though it does nothing for us
<heat> believe me, mine deflates
<heat> GPT is just overall, better
<mrvn> I'm using GPT with legacy boot (BIOS) ever since I got a disk > 2TB.
<zid> it has some neat features, that I am not using
<mrvn> heat: not as good as AmigaOS partition tables.
<nortti> it is also not fundamentally a trashfire
<zid> all my drives are single partition atm other than the GPT one because it's apparently mandatory for windows to use like 4
<nikolar> I'll start using gpt when i have large enough drives
<nikolar> Until then, MBR is just fine
<mrvn> nikolar: are you at least using 1MB alignment for partitions?
<nortti> what is the reasoning for the 1MB (is it 1MiB or something else based on CHS?) alignment actually?
<mrvn> CHS was 31.5 kiB alignment, which is horrible for 4k block sizrces.
<nikolar> mrvn: probably, haven't checked lol
<mrvn> and 31.5 - MBR - partition tables wasn't enough for the bootloader anymore.
<zid> I want 2MB alignment
<zid> so I can mmap my hard drives
<mrvn> nikolar: CHS has partitions start at 0/1/0, so 63 sectors into the disk.
<zid> 1GB alignment would also be good
<nikolar> If cfdisk does 1mb alignment, then yes mrvn
<mrvn> zid: so true.
<mrvn> zid: 4MB for 32bit support.
<heat> you can already mmap your hard drives
<heat> just not with large pages
<mrvn> heat: I think that was the complaint.
<mrvn> zid: since you need a bios partition and a /boot starting the real OS partition at 1GB isn't that wastefull.
<mrvn> Otherwise just map it at an address so that you can map the start with 4k pages, then 2M pages and finally 1G pages for the middle.
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<zid> imagine 4k mapping a hard drive
<zid> you'll be telling me I should 512b map them next
* \Test_User demands 0.5 byte mappings
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<mrvn> zid: pffft, 256TiB please.
<mrvn> Does 5 level page tables on x86 allow mapping a page on the top level?
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<Ermine> Hi gog, may I pet you
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<heat> in soviet russia, gog pets you
<bnchs> heat: then i would love to live in soviet russia
* gog petpetpet
<gog> Ermine: yes
* bnchs purrs
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* nikolar gogs pet
* Ermine pets gog
<immibis> zid: there's no actual reason you can't mmap drives at arbitrary offsets
<immibis> well, if you write your own OS
<zid> but then the indexing won't make sense
<immibis> it makes perfect sense
<zid> drive byte 0 mapped to 0xBEEF037000 :(
<immibis> address on disk = address in memory - memory start address + disk start address. Math checks out even if your starting address is 12345
<immibis> might want to keep it sector-aligned though
<zid> numbers have feelings too
<nikolar> Lol
<gog> you can count on it
<zid> I like boring numbers, no digital stimulation for me thanks
<Ermine> Is something supposed to be mapped to 0xDEADBEEF ?
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<Ermine> heat_: I must be lucky then
<mrvn> Ermine: 0xCAFEBABE
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