klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<heat> just random mobile games
<potatojs> where do i put sign a compliant
<heat> half the screen is a mobile game, the other half is a south park scene
<zid> you're supposed to ask an interesting technical question that gets the attention of someone who might know the answer
<Mutabah> /dev/null
<zid> while we talk to our friends
<bnchs> heat: south park or family guy
<bnchs> choose your pik
<bnchs> pick*
<zid> if you hang around for a few years, you also become friends
<potatojs> i am also very new to ask any interesting question
<zid> lurk then
<heat> yeah, the gta v splitscreen is usually on AI presidents shorts
<potatojs> i can withstand not touching grass for a few years so i guess am good
<zid> if you have to 'withstand' that I have bad news
<zid> You should be yearning to be inside again if anybody takes you near grass
<gog> hi
<gog> i'm touching grass rn
<zid> gog even moved to a country without grass
<zid> moss*
<potatojs> i think am already mastering it with you masters here
<gog> i'm not a master i am a very bad programmer
<bnchs> heat: PR to add subway surfers and minecraft gameplay to the corner of the window to keep zoomer's attention
<zid> I'm too lazy to be a master, I drink and I know things
<zid> but that's it
<zid> potatojs: if you want something useful to do while you apprentice yourself, go learn C
<potatojs> PR denied, closed
<heat> yes, you're already rubbing sholders with the pros
<heat> congrats!
<potatojs> i have already learn't ( aleast good amount ? , not anything pro ) C,
<bnchs> learn't?
<zid> go actually learn it then, report back with submissions and I will grade them
<bnchs> like not learn?
<potatojs> learnt
<potatojs> **
<gog> c is too hard
<zid> I learn't rust
<gog> ruuuuuuusst
<zid> I got to trying to implement mov eax, 42; ret
<gog> pokemon cargo to the polls
<zid> and couldn't do it
<heat> guys is there rost module for linux
<potatojs> rust is really hard i think
<potatojs> i picked c++ over rust
<zid> Rust isn't hard it's awkward
<zid> C++ is hard
<bnchs> heat: fine take half the fucking screen
<heat> i want rost module for linux operating system programmer
<zid> by which I mean, the mathematical sense
<potatojs> i find c++ to be more home
<zid> NP hard, etc
<gog> i like c#
<gog> it's c++++
<heat> zid is hard
<heat> in every sense
<zid> That's an insult to C# gog
<potatojs> zid how did you @ me ?
<zid> C# actually seems like a good language
<zid> I didn't?
<gog> ehhh
<zid> more C++ would be.. C++
<zid> C++ is like, fractally bullshit
<potatojs> when you said my username, the chat changed to green and stuff
<gog> the most recent revision actually makes nullable types sensible
<meithecatte[m]> oh this reminds me https://compilercrim.es/rust-np/
<bslsk05> ​compilercrim.es: Compiling Rust is NP-hard
<zid> good for you, that's your client, it's probably because I used your name
<gog> before all reference types were nullable no matter what
<potatojs> true.. i guess
<gog> now all reference types must be initialized unless they're explicitly marked nullable
<potatojs> at this rate am gonna be a pro in no time
<zid> uh-huh, except for all the 20 billion cpp files where that isn't true
<zid> so you have to sort of guess if you can use that as an invariant or not
<heat> you're already rubbing shoulder with em!
<zid> oops
<zid> C++ has no like... useful pillars of behavior you can lean on, any construct can mean anything because of overloads, spec revisions, future spec revisions, etc
<potatojs> yes C++ is f'ed up
<zid> as well as the actual behaviors themselves mostly being absolutely insane ofc
<gog> c++ is the zombo.com of languages
<gog> you can do anything
<gog> the only limit is yourself
<heat> zombo.com is the zombo.com of websites
<potatojs> exactly why i pick it
<zid> C++ is a language for writing adhoc domain language parsers in, with n! compile time complexity :P
<heat> gog is the zombo.com of fullstack developers
<heat> she can do anything
<potatojs> so i can have the feeling of power over others, its a coping mechanism
* bnchs pets gog and offers fishie
* gog prr and chomp fishie
<gog> :<<<<
<gog> i'm learning microcode right npow i swear!
<heat> you need AT LEAST 10 YoE
<gog> i'm fast-forwardiong time
<gog> i have 10 yoe now
<heat> what projects do you have, show me projects
<heat> did you write your own cpu?? i dont think so, rejected, denied
<gog> i wrote all of hte microcode for the zen 10 ma
<gog> gib money pls
<heat> ma, ma i wrote the microcode for the zen 10, are you happy ma
<zid> oh right, speaking od your own cpu
<zid> I came up with a crappy ISA in 5 mins that I intended to put into logisim at some point
<gog> i know how to design my own cpu in theory
<zid> I just remembered about it, need to know if I lost the .txt in my ssd crash or not though
<gog> logisim is fun
<meithecatte[m]> oh, right. of course gog would be using she/her pronouns. at this point I should probably just admit that my mental image of an IRC user I don't know much about should do a 180 the moment I see them meow
<gog> XD
<zid> I figured meow is more likely to be femboy
<gog> i don't have pronouns i'm not a librul
<zid> gog only has nouns, like moss
<zid> good strong nouns
<zid> build houses on those nouns
<heat> the duality of the irc user: FOSS basement dweller, and FOSS basement dweller, femboy version
<gog> technically my apartment is a garage
<heat> how shitty is your thinkpad?
<bnchs> heat: third one is richard stallman
<gog> heat: getting shittier every day
<heat> are you running libreboot or merely coreboot?
<heat> i hope you're using AT LEAST debian!
<gog> i'm not _that_ trans
<heat> if you're having fun using your computer, you're holding it wrong
<gog> you should see the position i'm sitting in rn
<zid> if you're having fun using a portugese computer, you brought your own keyboard
<heat> çÇÇÇççççççÇÇÇÇçççççççÇÇÇçççç
<heat> ur uk keyboard can do that? no?? checkmate stupids
* meithecatte[m] tries to think of a way of measuring how much trans someone is
<gog> dBG
<gog> decibels of gender
<potatojs> the real equation to everything
<gog> i figure dB makes sense since it's a relative scale
<zid> so every 3 genders is one double gender? I hate db.
<gog> yes
<zid> murdering tonberries for what feels like daaays :(
<gog> are those the dudes with the lanterns and cloaks
<klange> çÇ
<zid> aand I fucked it up, gotta restart, woot
<zid> yes
<gog> i rememer them being v scary
<zid> oh wait, no, they don't give xp, nevermind
<gog> dang i forgot how many summonable beings there were in ff8
<gog> makes sense considering the junction system tho
<zid> odin just offered me his august powers, are you going to be famous enough one day to offer me your gogust powers?
<gog> yes+
<gog> i still llike the classics
<gog> shiva, ifrit, bahamut
<gog> shiva being my fav ofc
<zid> a tonberry is my github profile pic btw gog
<gog> the ffx version of diamond dust gets me every time
<gog> ha nice
<zid> shows how much you look at my github
<gog> i don't look at anybody's github tbf
<gog> except tianocore
<gog> ok bedtime
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<potatojs> goodnight
<potatojs> i have a ton of "homework" to do so no sleep for me
<meithecatte[m]> "homework"?
<bnchs> good luck potatojs
<bnchs> meithecatte[m]: you know, taking your work from the office to home
<bnchs> and then from home to office, and then back and forth over and over
<potatojs> actual homework
<potatojs> from school
<gog> I put away big screen and am now on little screen
<potatojs> gog its bedtime
<potatojs> go to bed
<gog> i don't work tomorrow
<bnchs> wtf
<meithecatte[m]> hm, are you in the Netherlands by any chance?
<bnchs> how are you all not working in friday
<gog> iceland
<meithecatte[m]> oh
<meithecatte[m]> in the NL tomorrow is a national holiday
<bnchs> i find 3 days weekend to be dumb because i get 1 day lol
<gog> it's ascension
<potatojs> lol
<meithecatte[m]> oh i suppose more countries are gonna observe that then
<bnchs> gog: wtf is ascension
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<gog> Christian holiday
<bnchs> ohhh
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<potatojs> really?
<bnchs> oh my fucking god
<bnchs> i thought tomorrow was friday
<bnchs> i'm fucking dumb
<gog> it's the day Jesus rose to heaven
<bnchs> i wish he could come and end us all
<potatojs> easter ?
<meithecatte[m]> no, that was a month ago
<potatojs> ok
<gog> no Easter is when he rose from the dead
<gog> then walked around Judaea for a month
<potatojs> what do we do in ascension
<nortti> also not to be confused with pentecost, coming up in 10 more days, which is when the holy ghost was poured upon the people jesus had been with
<gog> idk I'm not a Christian
<gog> I'm gonna hang around at home and maybe get intoxicated
<meithecatte[m]> aaaaah why is lib/gcc/i686-elf/13.1.0/include not in my cross-compiler's default include path
<zid> you fucked it up?
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<potatojs> my osdev journey starts today
<moon-child> my condolences
* sakasama weeps.
<Mutabah> potatojs: Enjoy
<zid> as long as you do an osdev journey and not a bootloader journey, which seems very typical :p
<potatojs> i weep with you guys too
<potatojs> so much from the osdev wiki, not newbie friendly to me
<zid> I mean, it helps to have a vague sense of how a computer works
<Mutabah> Finding a tutorial to tie things togther is a good idea
<zid> before you try to instruct it to do things
<potatojs> it says i can use "grub" for bootloader and skip it
<zid> yea grub works nicely
<moon-child> are there any actually good tutorials?
<zid> no good tutorials exist, period
<zid> on any topic
<potatojs> technically....
<zid> The best you can hope for is "good, for a tutorial"
<bslsk05> ​os.phil-opp.com: Writing an OS in Rust
<potatojs> if a topic has huge community around it, it should have a good tutorial , cus many people covering the same thing
<zid> that's actually the last thing you want
<Mutabah> It's in rust, but it's also the most recent "good" tutorial covering x86
<zid> go look at say, C
<potatojs> your bound to find a "good one" for you
<zid> Lots of people try to learn it, all tutorials are *awful*
<zid> not even like, meh, actually *awful*
<potatojs> C has awesome tur-- no
<potatojs> i have never stumbled upon one
<zid> C even has mostly awful *books*
<potatojs> even the K&R C book is awesome,
<zid> at least they're carbon negative
<zid> K&R2 is the *only* good C book
<zid> there are literally hundreds
<potatojs> bjeets one too is good
<potatojs> it depends on the complexity , if you said C++ id say Ys
<potatojs> yes*
<zid> google doesn't know what you're talking about
<potatojs> C++ has god awful turtorials
<zid> if you been beej? then his tutorial is shit.
<potatojs> "bjeet's guide to the C programming language"
<mcrod> another good book: c: a modern approach 2nd edition by kn king
<zid> 0 results on google, do you mean beej?
<mcrod> didn't find out until later that #c also endorses this
<potatojs> yes
<zid> Beej's is bad.
<potatojs> i dont really know the spelling
<zid> It's not even up on his site anymore by the looks of it
<potatojs> Wha--
<mcrod> yeah beej's is actually pretty bad.
<zid> his networking resources are handy at least :D
<mcrod> the reality is, properly learning C/C++ programming is actually quite hard
<potatojs> no
<mcrod> in part because the resources available right away are mostly awful
<potatojs> please dont do C / C++
<mcrod> huh?
<zid> I archive.org'd beej's C tutorial, clicked a random entry
<zid> it was total garbage :D
<Mutabah> They're differnet languages
<potatojs> C is no where as close as awful as C++
<potatojs> Mutabah : yes
<zid> They're about as similar as javascript and java at this point
<mcrod> I wasn't disputing the awfulness of any language
<Mutabah> You might be able to compile C with a C++ compiler, but they are different specs
<potatojs> zid: ok in hindsight as newbie, yea maybe its bad
<mcrod> I was saying that if you want to learn C, or C++, it is difficult for someone to properly learn it as it isn't clear what is a good resource to do so
<potatojs> apart from awfulness, yes they are two very different languages
<moon-child> zid: what was wrong with it?
<zid> wrong with what?
<mcrod> first 3 results if you type "learn C++" on google: codeacademy.com, learncpp.com, w3schools.com
<potatojs> mcrod : id pass C, c has good resources
<potatojs> and C is very very easy to pick up
<mcrod> yes, but if you were starting out, how do you *know* which book is good?
<moon-child> beej's c tutorial
<potatojs> if you ask around or google
<zid> ah, I randomly clicked 'fopen' and he said "binary files are files with characters other than alphanumerics" in
<potatojs> when i googled C best book, the first pop up as K&R c book, and other sources said same, and they were'nt wrong
<mcrod> the first few google results are similar to my learn C++ results
<mcrod> yes, K&R is the standard, even today
<zid> Like, a lot of it is.. 80% correct?
<zid> but gives you that false sense of "I know what I am doing"
<mcrod> however, it _is_ a bit dated
<potatojs> i mean ,
<zid> You couldn't actually read this beej's guide and make a C program of more than a few lines without invoking piles of UB
* moon-child nods
<potatojs> UB is my gig
<zid> "A void pointer is a pointer to any type. It is automatically cast to whatever type you assign into it, or copy from it."
<mcrod> K&R doesn't talk about inline functions, fixed-width integer types, designated initializers, snprintf, stuff like that, simply because it didn't exist back then
<potatojs> if you do, int * ptr = 12 ; with UB it works, so it not UB ? cus it works???
<zid> That's IDB.
<potatojs> doesn't K&R have refined versions?
<zid> K&R2
<mcrod> K&R2 doesn't take into account C99
<zid> K&R is actually the pre-standards C from the early 80s
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<mcrod> again, C99 didn't exist when K&R books were written
<potatojs> even so k&R are more of beginning with the language , after that its all other sources and refernces for advanced stuff i guess
<zid> you don't need K&R3 tbh, you can read the c99/c11 differences off a random wiki in 5 mins
<zid> So yea, that void quote, the C spec says *slightly* different things about what a pointer to void is.
<zid> and it wouldn't even be hard to explain it, but once you do that, what you've got is a "book"
<zid> C tutorials are *categorically* bad
<potatojs> make one then, lets start cashing out
<zid> because the only way to 'tutorialize' something instead of 'write a book about a thing' is to ignore important details
<zid> There are *thousands* of C books
<zid> and we have K&R2 already which does a good enough job
<potatojs> in a newbie sense, i think they are good
<zid> imo they are actively harmful.
<zid> Like learning french from a phrase book that's riddled with typos and says totally incorrect things about grammar
<zid> you ain't learning french, you're learning some weird dialect that you *might* be able to fix
<zid> or you might stay confused forever
<potatojs> if you have out grown your C newbie days and are going for advanced stuff like an OS, and you stumble upon an irc where you are told void isnt what void is, and it easily sticks...
<potatojs> id say the turtorials worked
<zid> Like people who confuse left and right, now imagine you confuse every third word :P
<potatojs> beginning doesnt need too much details
<zid> note you absolutely can learn natural languages like this, completely adhoc from other bad speakers of french, but for something as technical and demanding as C
<zid> It's a bad idea
<potatojs> its more of a oversimplification leads to misinformation issue to me
<zid> That's precisely what I am accusing the guides of
<zid> oversimplification leading to misinformation
<potatojs> but for a newbie
<zid> You *need* to know that information to do real OSdev
<potatojs> oversimplification is good
<potatojs> not tooooo much though
<zid> There's no such thing as a newbie nuclear reactor designer though
<zid> There's qualified and unqualified
<zid> you design *other* things first
<potatojs> thats why am here, so i can find out the truth
<zid> until your skill set is good enough
<zid> But yea, absolutely nothing wrong with just diving in
<zid> get some more hours under your belt, find out what you don't know
<potatojs> if a newbie was blown out with high technical details, its more likey they'd lose interest or think its too hard
<zid> It's actually a major stumbling block for a lot of people, they refuse to just.. get stuck
<potatojs> sometimes those deatails arent needed
<potatojs> "get some more hours under your belt, find out what you don't know", i have , its everything
<zid> Then you didn't do the former
<potatojs> now i have to go and learn assembly
<potatojs> how about assembly guides
<potatojs> are they good?
<zid> if it helps you get over some issue you're having
<zid> otherwise you know what's better? getting stuck in
<potatojs> id take the better one obviously
<zid> Get 4 hours deep into something not working, finally give in and look it up, or don't, have an epiphany, or do and figure out how not to fall into the same trap etc
<zid> You just need to grind
<potatojs> and not touch grass, go it
<potatojs> so i can skip the bootloader right ? recommended ?
<zid> Yes
<potatojs> ok
<zid> bootloaders are a project unto themselves, a lot of people try to write their own, then that's their big project for the rest of their life.
<potatojs> really
<potatojs> i dont get it
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<zid> grub has 9570 commits on their github mirror
<potatojs> i mean ....
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<potatojs> grub is meant to boot everything and have fancy stuff soo....
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<mjg> heat: windows doing something is not an argument for anything :X
<mjg> heat: as in i doubt they even considered perf there, rather it takes more work to assure rx .text
<mjg> and i expect there was no "business case" to do it
<mjg> also have some reverence for one of the biggest operating systems in the world
<mjg> :[
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<gog> mewe
<andydude> hi
<gog> 😺
<andydude> what's new
<gog> a keyword for instantiating classes in several programming languages
<Ermine> gog: may I pet you
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<gog`> hi
<Ermine> hi gog`
<zid> I h aven't slebt in days, halp
<Ermine> Go sleep
<zid> it no work, I have an AWAKE
<zid> in caps
<gog`> no cap
<gog`> hi Ermine you may pet me
<GeDaMo> Uh oh, zid is woke :|
<gog`> he's gonna go broke
<gog`> he's gonna drink a bud light watch out
<zid> I had a busweiser once, it wasn't bad
<zid> like, bubbly water
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<gog`> i like bubbly water
<zid> man, I really want pizza
<gog`> i want pasta
<heat> mjg, btw is the great venerable freebsd kernel mapped with large pages?
<zid> pasta is like pizza, but you don't dry the flour + water out, and then you add the cheese before you cook it not after
<zid> so yo may as well get pizza
<heat> i was thinking here that you could align the segments and then reuse the physical pages you used as padding for something else
<gog`> when you dry the wets
<gog`> and then wet those dries
<heat> yes, they're mapped as "part of the kernel image", but it's not something you need to keep reserved
<zid> when do you soak the logs in wood
* Ermine pets gog`
* gog` prr
<mjg> heat: honestly i don't know
<mjg> heat: i suspect regular .text is, but kernel modules are not
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* kof123 pets both gogs
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* gog` prr prr
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<meithecatte[m]> meow!!
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<gog`> ok i thought that some of the isr's in uefi x64 were using the IST mechanism but i decoded the whole IDT and none of them do
<gog`> unless i decoded it wrong
<gog`> but i guess this is only ovmf running in qemu with the settings i have
<gog`> maybe what i'm doing is a bad idea
<gog`> heat tell me it's a bad idea so i can regain my resolve to defy you
<gog`> yep 5th byte in all of them is 0
<gog`> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<gog`> maybe this will work
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<gog`> heat you pinged out and didn't see me asking you to tell me that i'm wasting my time so that i regain my will to do a thing if only to annoy you
<meithecatte[m]> what are you doing, exactly?
<gog`> so in the UEFI spec it says you can run a UEFI application with an altered IDT, GDT and page tables with interrupts enabled as long as you catch all the interrupts and call the relevant handler in firmware after restoring its context
<gog`> and i'm doing somethign weird so that i can have what amounts to a user-mode program that sticks around after boot services exits and the kernel takes over
<gog`> and i need syscalls
<meithecatte[m]> ok that's more "cursed" and "whyyyy" than my "hey what if i wrote a kernel in javascript for the lulz"
<gog`> yes
<gog`> but it will work
<klys> it's cool just what is the IST mechanism?
<gog`> interrupt stack table
<klys> and that's something in intel?
<meithecatte[m]> is that an IA-32e thing?
<gog`> it's amd64 thing
<gog`> there are three bits in the IDT entry that are an offset into a table of stack pointers
<gog`> and the cpu will automatically change rsp to one of those if the ist != 0
<meithecatte[m]> ah yes sorry, IA-32e has gotta be the weirdest name one can use to refer to this
<meithecatte[m]> i blame the SDM
<gog`> i use the amd manual anyway
<gog`> less wordy
<meithecatte[m]> ooh, interesting
<klys> so you're not using the IST? is it any trouble?
<meithecatte[m]> does the amd manual have sections like "this is an AMD-only feature, Intel's processors don't support it"?
<gog`> if any of the firmware interrupt handlers are using the IST it complicates calling the firmware itnerrupt handler
<meithecatte[m]> because Intel doesn't
<gog`> no, amd doesn't
<meithecatte[m]> lovely
<gog`> but since none of the handlers in ovmf use the IST mechanism i can literally just jmp to the isr
<gog`> as long as the stack is right
<klys> and this works?
<gog`> idk yet
<gog`> i haven't wrote the code to do this i'm just trying to see how feasible it is
<gog`> the other option i have is to keep interrupts disabled unless i'm in the UEFI portion of the thing
<meithecatte[m]> update on my compiler woes: I should've used -ffreestanding in addition to building a cross-compiler
<gog`> yes
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<meithecatte[m]> I added a sentence to the wiki but I probably would've missed it myself if it *was* there when I was troubleshooting -> https://wiki.osdev.org/index.php?title=GCC_Cross-Compiler&diff=27769&oldid=27675
<bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: GCC Cross-Compiler - OSDev Wiki
<meithecatte[m]> any ideas on how to make this more prominent?
* kof123 stares at <blink>
<GeDaMo> I was thinking bigger font :P
<meithecatte[m]> (note that it's only red in the diff, I wouldn't dare to do such stylistic crimes)
<gog`> mewo
* meithecatte[m] ptes gog
<gog`> haha pte
<gog`> that's a data structure
<gog`> funy
<gog`> why not use clang instead meithecatte[m]
<meithecatte[m]> clang doesn't bat an eye if i try to #include <stdio.h>
<meithecatte[m]> and with -nostdinc I don't get <stdint.h>
<meithecatte[m]> like, maybe the cross-compiler comes for free, but the support files you still have to obtain somehow
<gog`> hmm
<gog`> i don't use -nostdinc tho
<gog`> i just use -ffreestanding+
<gog`> i understand the desire to idiot-proof everything but that gets complicated quickly
<meithecatte[m]> -target i686-pc-none-elf -ffreestanding -nostdlib isn't enough
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<gog`> i use -nostdlib for linking
<gog`> so if you accidentially include a hosted header it usually just will refuse to link
<meithecatte[m]> idk clang cross compilation doesn't seem to solve all the issues that gcc cross compilation does
<gog`> maybe it's because i'm not cross-arch
<bnchs> meeeow
<gog`> my target and host are both x86_64
<meithecatte[m]> I mean, if you provide your own impl of malloc and accidentally include system's <stdlib.h> instead of your own, it won't fail to link
<gog`> true
<gog`> but fwiw that's why i don't use standard header names for my kernel libs
* meithecatte[m] considers whether it should do the shitpost on i686 or x86_64
<gog`> yes
<meithecatte[m]> "yes" as in "it's a good question" or "yes" as in "should do i686 || should do x86_64"?
<meithecatte[m]> if the latter, fuck you >:(
<gog`> :o
<gog`> >:)
<gog`> do x64
<meithecatte[m]> ye probably
<meithecatte[m]> i messed around with a small 32-bit almost-kernel like 8 years ago, it's time for something new
<meithecatte[m]> lmao
<meithecatte[m]> anyway, i have a job interview in 45 minutes, should i arrange for a blahaj in the background?
<meithecatte[m]> you seem like the kind of person to have experience on the matter
<gog`> i approve blåhaj
<bnchs> can i have blahaj to cuddle?
<gog`> yes
<gog`> blåhaj for all the gals and pals
<meithecatte[m]> there are two shorks in this household, you can have one if you come over
<meithecatte[m]> wait no, there's two full-sized ones, there's also a few keychain-sized we hung up where the previous owners had their christian cross
<gog`> i have a confession to make
<gog`> i don't actually own a blåhaj
<meithecatte[m]> oh, that's easy, go on fedi, flirt with other girls who do have one, and then move in
<gog`> flawless plan
<gog`> i do need to go to ikea soon and i'll probably grab a blåhaj while i'm there :P
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<mjg> https://imgur.com/a/tCLuNAO chatgpt in a nutshell
<gog`> hhhh
<gog`> nice
<mjg> the border with .de being the longest is the common misconception
<mjg> as such i expected it would fuck up this way
<GeDaMo> Are the numbers accurate?
<gog`> the border with .cz is much more complicated
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<gog`> windier
<mjg> GeDaMo: ye
<bslsk05> ​twitter: <dsmerdon> Why does chatGPT make up fake academic papers? ␤ ␤ By now, we know that the chatbot notoriously invents fake academic references. E.g. its answer to the most cited economics paper is completely made-up (see image). ␤ ␤ But why? And how does it make them? A THREAD (1/n) 🧵 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FncxH8DaQAAKj27.jpg
<gog`> lmao
<mjg> :d
<gog`> i keep finding myself getting into arguments about llm's vs ai
<gog`> and i should probably stop
<gog`> but when people call chatgpt or dall-e or stable diffusion ai i just cringe
<gog`> it's not intelligent
<gog`> it cannot reason
<gog`> i don't even believe it's a step forward in the process of developing ai
<gog`> i'm certainly not an expert on the subject so maybe i'm wrong
<GeDaMo> I saw someone describe it as a calculator for text
<nortti> I think that would be better fit for something word2vec based
<nortti> since those allow you to do actual math on stuff
<bslsk05> ​blog.acolyer.org: The amazing power of word vectors | the morning paper
<heat> mjg, btw did you see the guy openly consulting chatgpt on THE FUCKING LKML
<heat> how is linux not supposed to call you words that give you booboos
<heat> gog`, are you defying my authoriteh
<gog`> yes
<gog`> i'm busy
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<heat> i hope you're busy defying my authoriteh
<gog`> i am
<heat> good
<gog`> i'm also having more coffee
<bslsk05> ​'South Park - Cartman Receives Authority (Authoritah)' by MX-1 (00:00:29)
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<kof123> "a calculator for text" <hooks up equipment to babbage's grave for perpetual motion from rolling> pray tell mr ai, if I put the wrong figures into the chatgpt, will the right answer come out?
<gog`> i'm also trying to get a table tomorrow evening at a new restaurant but they're not on any booking app
<gog`> so i emailed them like an hour ago
<mjg> heat: what
<heat> gog`, do you go to the gym before or after werk
<gog`> during
<mjg> heat: believe it or not i;m not a nerd reading lkml :X
<mjg> heat: unless i contribute something, which is rare
<gog`> we have a group and we go on tuesdays and thursdays
<gog`> company pays for the trainer
<heat> <bslsk05> ​lore.kernel.org: Re: Excessive TLB flush ranges - Nadav Amit
<heat> <heat> this mofo is using chatgpt as a source in the LKML
<bslsk05> ​lore.kernel.org: Re: Excessive TLB flush ranges - Nadav Amit
<heat> mjg, i give you LITERAL GOLD
<mjg> > Right. I had a discussion about it with ChatGPT but it started to say BS,
<mjg> so here is my understanding of the matter.
<mjg> what the actual fuck
<mjg> if i was a dystopian dictator this guy would have been shot by now
<heat> >>> Indeed, but ChatGPT says (yes, I see you making fun of me already):
<heat> >>> can cause a pipeline stall because the TLB entry invalidation must be
<heat> >>> “however, this doesn't mean INVLPG has no impact on the pipeline. INVLPG
<heat> >>> be executed correctly.”
<heat> >>> completed before subsequent instructions that might rely on the TLB can
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<nikolar> hilarious
<gog`> lmfao
<gog`> why would you consult chatgpt about a very specific problem with a cpu that might be microarch-dependent
<gog`> how the fuck is it supposed to know
<heat> why would you reveal to the LKML that you're consulting chatgpt on this
<heat> you're just fuckign asking for a roast at that point
<nikolar> why would you chatgpt
<gog`> i consulted chatgpt about whether i'm a superstar
<gog`> it said yes
<mjg> heat: do you know who nick krause is
<mjg> gog`: noice
<nikolar> gog`: we all know you are
<mjg> gog`: can i get an autograph
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<nikolar> too obvious
<heat> yes
<mjg> were you liek 5 years old at the time?
<mjg> i think that's decade old loller by now
<mjg> anyhow
<mjg> Sorry, but chatgpt has no place in serious discussions. You don't know
<mjg> where its getting its information from or how reliable it is, and you'll
<mjg> only make yourself look silly by quoting it.
<mjg> that's very mildly put for lkml
<heat> yes
* gog` autographs for mjg
<heat> al viro would've called him the R word
<mjg> gog`: on my ass cheek please
<nikolar> someone excersied a lot of self control that day
<nikolar> heat: retartd?
<heat> ... what do you think
<nikolar> lol
<mjg> revolutiony programmer
<mjg> revolutionary
<heat> all of these linux oldies are getting old, they're not what they used to. except al, al doesn't stop
<nikolar> well torvalds was bullied into stopping
<mjg> heat: back when i was at rh the dude would rant on #fs a lot
<heat> make me a linux maintainer and I will bully everyone like the good old days
<nikolar> yes please
<mjg> publish Code Of Conflict for Onyx
<mjg> 1. every sentence has an implied "you fucking retard" after it
<mjg> 2. .. excluding cases where it was already stated
<mjg> ... you fucking retard
<nikolar> i think it goes double for cases where it was already statec
<heat> if it was already stated, t still applies
<heat> absolutely
<mjg> (you fucking retard)^2
<nikolar> exactly
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<mjg> heat,
<heat> seriously, what's wrong with returning a struct. that looks good to me
<mjg> that fd?
<heat> yep
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<mjg> it's a hack mofer, but tolerable
<heat> i'm pretty sure the calling convention makes it return the struct on RDX:RAX
<nikolar> it packs some flags into a pointer
<heat> so it's all good
<nikolar> nothing too crazy
<nikolar> heat: true
<mjg> heat: they are *not* returning a struct
<mjg> heat: they have a hack specifically to not do it
<heat> struct fd is a struct m8
<mjg> mofer have you read the code
<heat> i read what you posted
<mjg> they have an inline which decomposes a pointer into the pointer and flags encoded in lower bits
<nikolar> yeah
<mjg> and that's how you get struct fd populated
<mjg> and that's what i called a ahck
<heat> why is that a hack?
<heat> it looks great to me?
* gog` hacks
<nikolar> tricks like that are used all the time in interpreters
<heat> hell, its all inline, it's just an abstraction you'll never really pay for probably
<mjg> let's see what chatgpt thinks about it
<nikolar> kek
<mjg> return (struct fd){(struct file *)(v & ~3),v & 3};
<mjg> 's the fucking line aight
<nikolar> it sure is a line
<mjg> > No, the code you provided does not appear to be a hack.
<mjg> you win heat
<nikolar> lmfao
<nikolar> i wonder if chatgpt realised what you meant by a hack
<mjg> i asked it for a sample hack in c
<mjg> int main() { // Hack to print "Hello, World!" without using a printf statement char str[] = {72, 101, 108, 108, 111, 44, 32, 87, 111, 114, 108, 100, 33, 0}; printf("%s\n", str); return 0;
<mjg> }
<nikolar> lol
<gog`> lmao
<heat> Why did the Linux kernel go to therapy?
<heat> Because it had too many unresolved dependencies!
<gog`> dang me too
<gog`> maybe i'm a linux kernel
<Ermine> wat
<Ermine> For whatever reason, this stuct stores last two bits of fd separatedly from the rest
<bnchs> mjg: you just used a printf statement there
<bnchs> like c'mon
<Ermine> bnchs: it was chatgpt
<bnchs> oh
<bnchs> nevermind i'm blind
<Ermine> heat: what's right about that piece of code
<mjg> Ermine: there is a good reason -- they try to skip taking a ref on file obj
<mjg> Ermine: and need to remember whether it happened
<mjg> now here is a tough one ladies
<mjg> > is there a performance difference between printf("foo\n"); and puts("foo");
<mjg> for unaware, -O2 will roll up both into a puts
<mjg> not according to chatgpt tho
<heat> what did chatgpt say?
<mjg> > In terms of performance, puts("foo"); generally has a slight advantage over printf("foo\n");. This is because puts is a simpler function that is specifically designed for printing strings followed by a newline character.
<heat> Ermine, what's wrong about it?
<heat> mjg, very handwavy statement
<heat> ask it for measurements /s
<mjg> so i wonder who is using chatgpt or similar to triage bug reports
<mjg> or better yet, look for solution in "knowledge base"
<mjg> ;x
<Ermine> how do they fix bugs in neural network? Do they edit coefficients by hand?
<mjg> no idea
<bnchs> Ermine: they don't
<bnchs> they lobotimize it
<bnchs> by crippling the things it can do
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<mjg> lol i had another look at that lkml thread
<mjg> > Take it easy Russel, I am not throwing unfiltered stuff.
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<mjg> take it easy russel. if something sounds plausible, i''m stating it as fact
<heat> if he said that to viro he'd be swimming with the sharks rn
<gog`> the only way to do this is to make a fake interrupt stack frame
<gog`> it keeps getting weirder
<gog`> but i have to preserve the error code
<gog`> and pass it along
<heat> if you get exceptions you don't really need to pass those through
<heat> you crashed, oopsie
<gog`> yeah i did think about that, if i crash i crash
<gog`> maybe i should revisit just using that timer dxe thing
<mrvn> mjg: The very reason that puts() is faster is why the compiler calls it. It's not quite a standard conform optimization though as it assumes knowledge about puts and printf being equivalent for the given format string.
<mrvn> Do compilers other than gcc/clang optimize printf to puts?
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<Ermine> Are there compilers others than gcc/clang? (joke)
<Ermine> heat: re viro: is Viro Chuck Norris
<nikolar> tcc
<bslsk05> ​uefi.org: 12. DXE Architectural Protocols — UEFI Platform Initialization Specification 1.8 documentation
<gog`> but it says only a DXE driver that produces another arch protocol can consume it sooo probably illegal
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<meithecatte[m]> mrvn: the standard specifies that this is what printf and puts do
<meithecatte[m]> if you have your own special ones then you need to set up gcc with the compiler flags that tell it about this fact
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* kof123 points at synthesis os
<heat> Ermine, no.
<heat> gog`, you're not supposed to fuck around with DXE mate
<heat> you're not part of the firmware
<heat> you don't even know if its there!
<gog`> yes i am
<gog`> i'm writing microcodes
<heat> why the fuck are you not just using the IDT entries
<gog`> i am the firmware
<gog`> i am
<gog`> but i have to swtich into context that the firmware will like
<gog`> i have to context switch
<heat> that protocol has not relation to what you want to do
<gog`> i know
<gog`> i'm not doing it
<gog`> i'm doing something else leave me alone
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<gog`> let me cook
<heat> sidt, take their IDT. in an interrupt, setup a fake frame (or even go back and use the frame you were given, theoretically it may be possible to work out), call the idt
<heat> idt entry, that is
<gog`> yes
<gog`> that's what i'm doing rn
<heat> good
<gog`> but i'm writing the code
<heat> so what do you want EFI_TIMER_ARCH_PROTOCOL for
<gog`> i don't
<gog`> i just wanted to show you what i found before
<heat> found for what?
<gog`> idk
<gog`> i'm sorry i'm very high rn
<heat> don't do drugs kids
<heat> al viro is VERY upset at you right now
<gog`> yes
<gog`> good fuck him
<heat> YO
<heat> wayyyyy out of line
<gog`> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<bslsk05> ​'Drugs are Bad, Mkay? - SOUTH PARK' by South Park Studios (00:02:36)
<meithecatte[m]> society: drugs are bad. also society: hey your main options for treating this are amphetamines and cannabis
<heat> surely you mean US
<meithecatte[m]> not really?
<bslsk05> ​'the cat from ipanema' by j1gggs (00:01:39)
<heat> medicinal marijuana is not really a thing here
<heat> gog`, are you high enough for south park highlights
<gog`> ugh no
<heat> :(
<gog`> sorry bruh
<heat> no problem bruh
<gog`> love you brah
<heat> maybe get more high next time bruh
<heat> it's not just about ueeeeeeefiiiiiiiiiiiiii maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan
<gog`> everything is about uefi
<bslsk05> ​i.imgur.com <no title>
<gog`> the code i need to use to go between the fake user space and being able to call firmware is the same
<gog`> and interrupts
<heat> Ermine, are you also high or do you have no excuse
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<Ermine> I'm always high
<Ermine> At least I now know how to ban on irc
<gog`> why are you banning
<heat> <gog`> everything is about uefi
<gog`> true
<Ermine> right now I'm not banning anyone
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<Bitweasil> Hm. Has anyone seen more on the weird microcode update from Intel last week that's Definitely Not Security Related but please apply immediately?
<innegatives> there was an article on it, its security related
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<Bitweasil> I saw Intel claim very specifically it *wasn't.*
<bslsk05> ​www.theregister.com: Intel says its mystery microcode update isn't security fix • The Register
<Bitweasil> In an email Monday, an Intel spokesperson told The Register that microcode-20230512, which popped up on the manufacturer's GitHub page “does not contain any security updates and the note, [INTEL-SA-NA], is meant to convey that there are no applicable (Not Applicable) security updates in the package.”
<Bitweasil> I'm... not quite sure I believe them, really. :/
<GeDaMo> If it's not a security fix then which features are they removing? :|
<nortti> transactional memory
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<Bitweasil> They already removed that, didn't they?
<Bitweasil> This is the 5th time they've removed transactional memory and they're getting exceedingly efficient at it?
<nortti> by 14th generation transactional memory will be removed before it's added
<Bitweasil> Then they'll have to add it to remove the space-time bugs caused by removing it first?
<GeDaMo> Screw causality! :P
<nortti> ah yes, atemporal stores
<Bitweasil> It's the store-before-load forwarding.
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<gog`> knowing the value before you need to load it is the fastest way
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<Bitweasil> Run-time constant optimization? :D
<gog> yes
<GeDaMo> All values are constant, it's just a question of how long they're constant for :|
<zid> That's how haskell works
<zid> you just only write programs for a specific universe and do it all at compile time, until the final program is just mov eax, 12; ret
<zid> if you need a different outcome, try a different universe with different constants
<bslsk05> ​twitter: <bos31337> So glad you asked! The best ghc bug ever involved a dev version of the compiler deleting your source file if it contained a type error.
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<nikolar> wonder how they managed that
<zid> I'm going to say "poor engineering"
<zid> what's ghc written in?
<GeDaMo> GHC
<zid> If haskell then I know the answer
<zid> yea sounds fair then
<nortti> I'd presume it wrote out a temporary file and someone got file name vars mixed up
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<nikolar> huh
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<zid> (super high level language -> anything goes -> mistakes can be far reaching and naughty)
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<zid> i.e if free(p) is just a big overload to delete any possible resource, confusing a file handle and a memory reference is no longer a type error, or a runtime crash
<nikolar> yeah interesting
<zid> Tends to be the issue with loosey goosey languages, thinko bugs compile and turn into logic errors
<zid> which I feel is a thing people forget when they go "omg stop writing things in C, for security!1one", they discount the billions of potential bugs fancy things like 'types' can prevent
<nikolar> i mean c has types too lol
<zid> that's what I just said
<zid> C has types
* gog types
<zid> people discount that as a way to write quality software, focusing instead on the fact it also has UB
<gog> me too
<zid> meanwhile their PHP program is accepting SHA1 hashes that start with 0E as very large integers instead
<nikolar> yeah ub is a bit of a mess, but c is in no way an obsolete or a bad language
<zid> well, very large magnitude, 0 value
<zid> if(input == "0E...") -> if(input == 0) -> if(!input){ login_ok(); }
<zid> :D
<zid> who needs memory safety bugs when you can just write nonsense, and have it silently do the wrong thing
<nikolar> it's great
<zid> C# seems like it might be fairly decent for writing programs in, strikes a nice balance
<zid> shame you can't actually use C# anywhere other than w10
<nikolar> you kind of can though mono
<nortti> zid: haskell is kinda famous for the high emphasis based on types?
<nortti> *put on
<zid> (by types they mean classes)
<gog> nah you can write c# programs easy on linux
<gog> microsoft has dotnet runtime for linux
<zid> shame you can't run them afterwards :p
<gog> dotnet publish
* gog fingerguns
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<zid> fun gingers? I doubt it
<gog> >:(
<gog> i'm very fun
<nikolar> are you ginger
<gog> sorta
<nikolar> then you are sorta fun
<zid> 1-sorta
<nikolar> Yeah that
<gog> no i'm very fun
<zid> but not absolute fun
<zid> the amount of ginger you are is absolute-very
<zid> Oh, you know some rules we don't use. Okay, let's use Centra's rules, too.
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<mcrod> gog: may I pet you
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<bnchs> gog: may I pet you
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<gog> mcrod: yes
<gog> bnchs: yes
* bnchs patpatpatpatpatpatpat gog
* nikolar gogs pat
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* gog prr
<gog> i don't wanna work tomorrow i had such a nice day off
<nikolar> :(
<FireFly> that's why I cunningly decided to take tomorrow off
<gog> i have a PR with conflicts i need to fix anyway
<gog> what's weird is when i rebased it to the target branch it didn't conflict
<gog> but now with the PR it does
<gog> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
* mcrod pets gog
* gog prr
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<gog> hi
<bnchs> hi gog
<gog> hi bnchs
<bnchs> wanna pet?
<gog> yes
* bnchs waits for pet
* gog petpetpetpetpetp
* bnchs purrs
<Ermine> I'll have a day off only after a month
<gog> i need to take a week off soon
<gog> boss is taking first half of june, other programmer is taking second half of june
<gog> i wanna go visit my friend who moved away
<bnchs> gog: lucky
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<innegatives> Hey, what's your opinion on https://os.phil-opp.com/ ? It seems to be pretty standard till the async/await part where it introduces wack cooperative multitasking, would you leave the async/await part out if you were creating on OS based on this?
<bslsk05> ​os.phil-opp.com: Writing an OS in Rust
<gog> why or why not
<gog> this is a language featurte
<gog> it's basically a green thread
<innegatives> so this cooperative multitasking can be made internal to the kernel and for userspace you can have another preemptive multitasking going on?
<gog> yes
<Ermine> Meanwhile people already started porting python stuff to Onyx
<gog> cooperative multitasking makes sense on the language level because it gives you very fine granularity over what cooperates and what doesn't
<gog> if a method isn't async then it never yields the thread
<gog> and you can't await anything inside of it
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<zid> only place I've wanted anything like that was parsing acpi tables
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<gog> zid
<bnchs> gog
<gog> bnchs
<mcrod> hi
<bnchs> mcrod
<mcrod> bnchs
<mcrod> one sec
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<mcrod> test
<mcrod> christ, quassel totally shat on me
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<gog> hi mcrod
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<potatojs> greetings
<gog> hi potatojs
<mcrod> hi
<potatojs> hope you all good
<mcrod> depends on whether or not quassel decides to work
<mcrod> which, so far it looks like it is
<gog> i'm going to bed soon i think'
<gog> i'm going to a new restaurant tomorrow after work
<mcrod> unfortunately, quassel seems to be the only decent GUI IRC client on Linux
<gog> i like konversation
<mcrod> note that I'm not saying quassel _core_
<zid> gog: is that like a conversation, but for white nationalists
<gog> ugh now i hate it
<zid> haha
<mcrod> also
<mcrod> maybe I mentioned this before, but I did not know that amd_pstate was a thing for the governor on Linux
<potatojs> who are we following here
<zid> following?
<zid> I didn't follow anybody here, I walked by myself
<gog> i followed zid
<gog> he didn't see'
<mcrod> i was always here
<zid> We just built walls around mcrod
<zid> that's what england did to india, they stayed put, we built callcenters around them
<gog> we promised him a casak of amontillado
<gog> cask
<potatojs> technically if mcrod was there first , then you guys followed him
<gog> and he was foolish enough to follow us
<zid> that isn't what following means