<mcrod>
on windows now, when hiding the taskbar you no longer see a little sliver of it
<mcrod>
this is... perfect now
<mcrod>
almost perfect
<gog>
nice
<gog>
i always want to see the taskbar i have so many tasks
<heat>
tasc
<heat>
tascc
<mcrod>
no you don't always want to see the taskbar
<mcrod>
i hate taskbars, hate them
<mcrod>
same with desktop icons
<heat>
do you like GNOME
<mcrod>
yes
<mcrod>
modern GNOME
<mcrod>
with the proper extensions
<mcrod>
without them it is cancerous
<gog>
ok
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<heat>
vincent van gog
<mcrod>
that's amazing.
<heat>
kind of an overreaction it's not that funny
<gog>
hahahahahahahahaha
* gog
cuts off her ear
<heat>
hahahaha now that's funny
<gog>
hahahaha
<heat>
send me a pic of your ear cut off
<gog>
i'm too tired tonight
<gog>
i'll do it tomorrow
<heat>
this is WEAK energy
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<gorgonical>
In the context of my baremetal forth interpreter I have a problem that I want access to parts of the underlying ISA. What's the right way to do this: 1) write assembly words that use those and expose those as regular words, 2) write the words in forth and do some definition hacking to directly compile the machine code bytes into the defintion, thus eliding the need to reassemble the underlying interpreter, or 3) som
<gorgonical>
ething else that I haven't thought through
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<moon-child>
gorgonical: I believe 1 and 2 have both been done
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<sham1>
IIRC 1 is more traditional for FORTH
<Ermine>
FOOOOOORTH
<GeDaMo>
Forth! :P
<GeDaMo>
Damnit, did I miss a convo about Forth? :P
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<Ermine>
I guess it is not ok to compare pointers in C?
<Mutabah>
depends on what you use that comparison for
<mjg>
it is UB for arbitrary pointers
<mjg>
but it works in practice bcause everyone is doing it
<Ermine>
Ah, my case is 'from the same allocation', so should work'
<mjg>
or you can cast to uintptr_t
<mjg>
that is indeed safe
<Ermine>
thank you
<sham1>
Yeah, so for example with linker symbols like `extern int start_of_something[]` and `extern int end_of_something[]` it is indeed undefined behaviour to compare the pointers to those, but in practice it's fine
<sham1>
Replace with arrays to unsigned char if using ints there makes you nervous, as it should
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<kof123>
the explanation i have seen is segmented pointers (as an example), did noone think to write a normalize_pointer() ?
<sham1>
That's expensive
<kof123>
lwayer: is it heavy? kid who smells: yes jurassic park lawyer: then put it down, it's probably expensive
<kof123>
*lawyer
<sham1>
Also how would you compare pointers in something like a Harvard architecture where a pointer could either be to data memory or program memory
<sham1>
That's also the reason for why function pointers are incompatible with data pointers
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<kof123>
yes, but that is a separate issue :D
<sham1>
Not really
<kof123>
you are either comparing 2 data pointers, or 2 function pointers, or one of each
<kof123>
so 3 cases there
<sham1>
Well you still have situations where you might for example store constant data into progmem
<sham1>
Kind of like how one uses .rodata
<sham1>
That's a data pointer but to program memory
<kof123>
sure, but then would it be a data pointer or function pointer?
<kof123>
"for C"
<sham1>
It's a data pointer to C, but it really cannot be compared to "data memory" pointers which in turn makes the comparison UB
<kof123>
anyway i do not dispute the value of knowing such things, rather, how many people worried actually tested where it would matter?
<gog>
hi
<sham1>
Well it matters if one gets problems with doing this stuff, it might be the compiler being over-eager in optimising around the fact that it's UB
<kof123>
that makes sense
<sham1>
Like yeah, in practice the compiler will do the sensible thing, it doesn't literally summon demons from one's nostrils but it might just make assumptions that don't actually hold when executing
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<mrvn>
Arduinos have pointers to ram and flash.
<kof123>
again -- what is that at the C level?
<kof123>
if you go outside C data pointers and function pointers, then you have already gone outside C "guarantees"
<mrvn>
kof123: and uint16 but you need different opcodes to access flash and ram.
<kof123>
i actually agree though -- if you are on a platform with various pointer types, C won't save you, you better know what is actually going on
<sham1>
That's the slight downside of C being a high level language
<sham1>
Also upside in many cases tbf
<mrvn>
The problem is that all (data) pointer types can be converted to void* or char* and then the compiler has no way to say the comparison is sensless because the type differs
<mrvn>
If you have different pointer types then there should be different void* types.
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<kof123>
http://chameleon.synth.net/english/developers/ now you can test your 24/48-bit C code using the simulator included in the SDK, along with stdin and stdout. you're welcome! </nick burns>
<bslsk05>
chameleon.synth.net: Home of the Chameleon
<kof123>
it works with wine as well :D
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<gog>
is there any way to make firefox yell at me if i'm trying to do a comparison on a function object because i keep forgetting ()
<gog>
in javascript
<heat>
yeah use typescript, more yelling in general
<sham1>
Yeah, normal JS won't help you out
<Ermine>
gog: may I pet you to compensate browser yelling at you
<sham1>
I think that in this case gog wants the yelling
<heat>
>browser yelling at someone because of borken js
<heat>
haha very funny never going to happen
<heat>
it'd be likelier for the browser to start autofixing your code and adding ()
<FireFly>
y'know it'd be nice if they'd made that part of strict-mode but I guess not
<Ermine>
mostly firefox yells about content security policy or something like this
<FireFly>
but yeah your best bet is static analysis like typescript or whatever ig
<heat>
browsers do be smoking that JS pack but you dare misconfigure CORS and they send a SWAT team to your house
<gog>
it's not an option in this case, i'll just have to remember to call the function
<gog>
i'm using react, not something that makes sense
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<heat>
react doesn't support ts?
<gog>
maybe it does idk
<heat>
i know angular does
<gog>
but i don't have time to learn yet another thing to make this easier i need to get it done soon
<gog>
i have bug reports stacking up on me
<FireFly>
yeah fair
<sham1>
React supports typescript
<FireFly>
valid
<gog>
dang
<gog>
wish i knew that before starting lol
<Ermine>
Is it work or personal
<gog>
work
<sham1>
I get to work with years old jQuery and plain JS at work. !!FUN!!
<gog>
same
<Ermine>
How fun is it to support old IEs
<gog>
and bit by bit trying to replace it all with more modern js
<gog>
still glued to jquery for two applications. we use jquery-ui pervasively
<gog>
but we're trying to replace the stuff that really doesn't need to be client-side with server-side
<gog>
we should port the whole thing to Blazor with MVC
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<heat>
you really need java
<heat>
java is great
<heat>
server-side java, client-side java, java as an applet
<sham1>
Server-side Java is unironically nice
<heat>
noooooooooo
* Ermine
drinks java
<FireFly>
I dunno, keeping your servers on an island across the world seems inconvenient
<heat>
the only thing i would ever use java for is an iceland volcano sacrifice
<sham1>
Although I actually work at a project using the Vaadin framework, so the java is somewhere between being client-side and server-side. Client-side stuff directed from the backend. Fun!
<heat>
JDK goes first, JRE does second
<sham1>
And not only is it that framework, but an ancient version!
<Ermine>
Hopefully it will trigger minecraft rewrite on something more suitable
<FireFly>
heat: for hexing the interview? :p
<sham1>
I love those posts
<sham1>
It's so cursed yet so interesting and neat
* FireFly
nods
<sham1>
But yeah, professional Java development is interesting. And if I was working in another institution, I'd probably get paid nicely, but lol public sector wages
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<mjg>
hey, at least in the public sector you have immense job security
<bslsk05>
twitter: <pr1ntf> FreeBSD:  "Check out my horse power."   OpenBSD:  *seatbelt reminder warning constantly ringing*   NetBSD:  "We put a Chevy small block in a 2/3 scale P-51 WWII fighter. Let's see if it flies."   DragonFlyBSD:  "Matt's been in the garage for weeks but his flying car is awesome."
<nortti>
Ermine: they removed it some years back, on the grounds that it is complexity where security issues might arise
<Ermine>
Heck, MS-DOS feels more advanced and sophisticated
<bslsk05>
'EFO Empty Force FAIL' by Marc Mula (00:06:03)
<nortti>
I think so, though it's been a while since I watched it
<mjg>
it wants me to sign in to confirm age, which i' not doing
<heat>
30 min is too long for my genz brain
* mjg
is secretly younger than heat
<nortti>
drop it into mpv, and it should play just fine
<mjg>
watch the 6 minute
<heat>
can you sum it up into a 10 second tiktok
<mjg>
ye
<mjg>
people pretend dragon ball is real
<mjg>
except beams are invisible
<heat>
actually go to joe rogan's podcast and give him some clips, i'll watch those clips piece by piece over 2 months in youtube shorts
<nortti>
and have for a good while
<mjg>
falls apart when a "non-believer" volunteers to be attacked
<heat>
"jamie bring up that dragon ball guy getting slammed by khabib on the octagon"
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<mjg>
burp
<mjg>
you want some real shit, google for lightworkers
<heat>
i'm a lightworker for the BSD community
<mjg>
you clearly have not done it
<mjg>
's all i'm going to say
<heat>
have not done what
<mjg>
gogoled for what this shit is
<heat>
i have
<heat>
"The simplest way to describe lightworkers would be as beings who feel an enormous pull towards helping others. Also referred to as crystal babies, indigos, Earth angels and star seeds, these spiritual beings volunteer to act as a beacon for the Earth, and commit to serving humanity. " <-- me in the BSD community
<mjg>
keep reading mofo
<mjg>
you are missing the point
<heat>
yup i'm all that baby
<heat>
im one with the universe
<heat>
the universe says "openbsd sucks" so that's my opinion
* mjg
suspects heat is a lizard person
<heat>
im a cloud person
<heat>
CEASE YOUR INVESTIGATION
<heat>
ok but actually real talk these people are fucking nuts haha
<mjg>
you don't know fuck mat,e keep reading
<heat>
i have read it all, even the comments
<mjg>
bitch plz
<heat>
"how do i find this innate power" and shit
<mjg>
this is a part of a bigger ecosystem
<mjg>
there is aliens around the planet
<heat>
im gud person how do i find psychic
<mjg>
testing if we are advanced enough
<mjg>
'n shit
<mjg>
google for lightworker + roswell
<heat>
hmm that reminds me of scientology
<mjg>
you will find the alien who crashed
<heat>
also a south park episode haha
<mjg>
and is inow inhabiting a human body
<mjg>
and o on
<mjg>
php, node.js and other crap were totally trojan horses planted by aliens who wis h ill on humanity
<heat>
jordan hubbard is a bad alien
<heat>
linux torvald good alien, al viro bestest alian
<mjg>
theo is a conflicnted alien
<heat>
i like how even aliens recognize american exceptionalism
<heat>
you won't find em visting bucovina, romania i'll tell you that
<mjg>
ye they told me they wanted to do it, but then they watched "indepdence day" and they are going to go after the white house
<mjg>
when the time comes
<mjg>
for shits 'n giggles
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<Ermine>
How did discussion come to american exceptionalism
<heat>
because aliens are only ever spotted there
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<mjg>
the rest of the world has cameras too good to spot aliens
<mjg>
s/spot/record/
<Ermine>
Haha
<Ermine>
Well, only US has area 51
<gog>
hi
<heat>
gog, alien in iceland where?
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<gog>
heat: probably the highlands
<Ermine>
beneath the ground
<gog>
it's a desert and it looks like the surface of the moon
<bslsk05>
github.com: Use old release version of gmp again · BtbN/FFmpeg-Builds@d754663 · GitHub
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<nortti>
ah, I see
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<gog>
zid: i'm writing your compiler rn
<heat>
nortti, this torbjorn is a bit of an idiot isn't he?
<gog>
also i'm doing cleanup for my project now and so far i've deleted over 1600 lines of code
<gog>
and i've only added 800-ish
<gog>
it still has async quirks
<FireFly>
heat: eh I can see the point sorta?
<FireFly>
but he's definitely... opinionated
<heat>
>guy abuses the shitty GMP server from github CI
<heat>
hurr durr microsoft big tech bad
<heat>
m$ moment
<Ermine>
Isn't gmp part of gnu?
<nortti>
yeah
<nortti>
GNU Multiple Precision Arithmetic Library
<Ermine>
Aren't they supposed to use gnu infrastructure (which is less shitty I guess?)
<gog>
microsoft is bad
<Ermine>
heat: maybe gmp people cannot afford github-scale infrastructure. Hence microsoft bad
<gog>
let's not let a dude misconstruing ffmpeg abusing their git detract from this realty
<gog>
it's not microsoft abusing the infra, it's ffmpeg
<heat>
microsoft bad gnu poggers free as in freedom free as in beer
<zid>
gog: oh great, what was the bugfix for line 4?
<gog>
zid: delete it
<heat>
(lets skip the huge contributions microsoft has made for open source)
<gog>
yeah and i made a huge contribution to the toilet bowl this morning but it's the same thing
<Ermine>
And almost closed source for some .net 6 features
<heat>
Ermine, there's no need for github-scale infra, dude, a single guy fucking DDoSed their thing
<heat>
"beefy" my ass
<nortti>
< gog> let's not let a dude misconstruing ffmpeg abusing their git detract from this realty ← not git, mercurial. dunno how well the mercurial server side handles full clones vs. git
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<Ermine>
My infra is a single 1G double core VPS
<puck>
idk, not a lot of projects need to deal with 100-ish full clones in a short period, i'd say
<puck>
(on mercurial)
<heat>
GMP is a dependency for a whole lot of important projects
<gog>
nortti: oh fuck
<gog>
why are they using hg
<FireFly>
good question
<nortti>
I have no idea. at least they're not using bazar
<gog>
i used bzr for awhile
<gog>
then i got git and got gud
<nortti>
but yeah, was fun figuring out how to contribute to it
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<FireFly>
I wonder what he does these days
<FireFly>
I mean outside of maintaining GMP
<gog>
blames microsoft for various problems in his life
<FireFly>
apparently yeah
<gog>
"whoops, i missed the bus. goddamnf ucking microsoft"
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<FireFly>
but he used to work at uni, but there was some drama and he quit in protest or so
<gog>
"ah shit my food is burning, microsoft why didn't you turn off the oven when i asked you?"
<FireFly>
hmm
<FireFly>
wonder if KTH still has a compiler construction class, he used to run it
<bslsk05>
www.mail-archive.com: Will GCC eventually learn to use BSR or even TZCNT on AMD/Intel processors?
<Ermine>
heat_: microsoft could rate limit requests to gmplib site as a fast remedy
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<heat>
just to be clear, microsoft is not github and they're separate entities
<heat>
2) the load is not all that damn much for a freaking cornerstone in GCC. you need this to build GCC!!!
<heat>
yes, 40-clone-burst is weird and kind of abusey. it should not however screw your whole infra
<heat>
make them rate limit clones if they care
<heat>
if a rando can take down their thing in github actions, so can I with a simple bash for loop
<Ermine>
Better infra would be cool to have, but what if project doesn't have enough money for it?
<gog>
what if we stopped having projects
<gog>
no more code
<Ermine>
MS/GH/whatever has loads of $$$. Open source projects don't necessarily have $$$. Gues who has to accomodate who?
<gog>
fix the code we have
<heat>
this does not necessarily need more infra
<heat>
just incredibly basic iptables rules work
<Ermine>
so those rules are in place rn
<heat>
no they're not
<heat>
they're blocking whole ranges of IPs, but you can throttle with iptables
<heat>
is this going to be manual? what's stopping me from being a dick and doing the same?
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<nortti>
I think the problem is less the amount of data transferred (which they can handle) and more the CPU power required to compress the entire repository for transfer
<mcrod>
wait did something happen at github
<nortti>
in which case any rate limiting has to happen at a higher level that knows whether you're, say, downloading release tarballs (cheap) or doing full clones (expensive)
<heat>
mcrod, some rando's CI script cloned GMP way too much, and GMP died because of it, then blamed le bad microsoft
<nortti>
if you limit any traffic to the level where full clones would not be a problem, you're making everyone downloading tarballs' day worse for no real benefit
<mcrod>
that's actually hilarious.
<puck>
tbf the response from BtbN is really bad
<puck>
> Their hg server is way too flakey to rely on, download a release tarball from GNU mirror instead.
<puck>
> I hope no important fixes are missed due to the loss of update automation this causes.
<heat>
nortti, considering clones are taking it to its knees, it may be a solid idea to throttle everyone in general
<heat>
in any case, cloning sounds highly cacheable
<mcrod>
god I wish clang-tidy would shut the fuck up sometimes
<heat>
same
<heat>
but you can just disable some checks
<gog>
but you have a style violation
<gog>
you can't commit a style violation that's cringe you're going to lose contributor
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<heat>
most of the modernize checks are really stupid and i hate them
<heat>
like it wants me to replace every define with an enum
<gog>
sometimes you can't
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<mcrod>
yeah I've begun to disable a few of them
<gog>
when is C getting constexpr
<mcrod>
mostly the "use a trailing return type" ones
<mcrod>
gog C2X
<gog>
it's in c2x??
<mcrod>
the keyword is, yes
<mcrod>
most of the people in #c are having strokes over the 'new blood'
<heat>
i have strokes over the C VLA syntax
<heat>
char buf[static 8] or some garbage like this
<mcrod>
doing that isn't even implemented in gcc
<mcrod>
it's basically a nop
<heat>
yeah they don't warn you on OOB
<nortti>
I though it would give you warnings for NULLs at least
<gog>
i used a VLA for one thing in the past and then realized that VLAs are really bad actually
<nortti>
also I don't think that's a VLA, I think it's just a normal pointer
<heat>
yes, it's a VLA-syntax-like thing
<heat>
but a pointer
<mcrod>
what the fuck kind of warning...
<mcrod>
"member has public visibility"
<heat>
you know what i also have strokes over? namespaced symbols
<mcrod>
maybe it's fucking _supposed to_
<heat>
stdc_ and posix_
<heat>
stdbit.h should burn in hell
<gog>
wow, my pharmacy has an app where i can order my refills
<gog>
i no longer need to call and speak my broken icelandic
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<heat>
i actually dont have all that many shit clang-tidy warnings because i have an extremely-opinionated .clang-tidy
<mjg>
did you know there are peeps who try to make darwin-xnu repo into a full os?
<heat>
yes
<mjg>
that is both better and worse than ractos
<nortti>
Ermine: ognуx, with cyrillic у
<heat>
also I don't associate with debian, sorry
<Ermine>
nortti: ah, lmao
<sham1>
heat: what do you use? Arch?
<heat>
yes btw
<sham1>
CALLED IT!
<mjg>
did you mean gnu arch?
<heat>
mjg uses gnu hurd
<mjg>
no, i use plan9
<mjg>
not gnu!
<sham1>
Oh yeah, forgot. Clearly has to be GNU Linux-Libre Parabola
<heat>
usually i ask for a cuba libre but i can try a gnu linux-libre next time i go for a drink
<mjg>
Download ReactOS 0.4.14 or Donate
<mjg>
between the two i chose Donate
<sham1>
I've actually unironically used Parabola Linux-Libre unironically because it has actually worked with some of my systems better than distros with proprietary packages (shock horror). It's been fixed IIRC but yeah
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<sham1>
> mfs say the same thing twice because you forget what you just wrote
<mjg>
you mean neither work now? :rimshot:
<sham1>
Hah!
<mjg>
why on earth is it so hard to find a short-sleeve shirt with a pocket
<heat>
why do you want a shirt with a pocket
<sham1>
No one wants to make nerd clothing
<mjg>
look genz it is too complicatd for you to understand
<heat>
it looks stupid and does nothing except maybe hold a pen
<mjg>
i use a 3 pocket system
<mjg>
so
<mjg>
FU
<sham1>
I'm sure he'd also go for pocket protectors
<mjg>
if they were not so mainstream, maybe
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<mcrod>
god. i forgot you can't use memcpy in a constexpr function.
<kof123>
" fix the code we have"
<kof123>
you just tanked the stock market gog
<kof123>
so...if you short i guess it would work
<kof123>
otherwise, not happening
<gorgonical>
re: my forth interpreter. I think both are permissible. The jonesforth uses option 2 and manually builds the machine code in the definition by writing it byte-by-byte. That gets you the "spirit of minimalism" that the interpreter doesn't do anything in asm other than what's needed to run the forth itself, and "fancy" things like being able to use the fence insn are left up to you
<gorgonical>
But whereas writing inline asm in C feels like a convenience, writing machine code in forth words feels like the opposite lol
<gorgonical>
Something about bypassing the assembler and utilizing raw machine code feels absurd when the .S file I wrote makes extensive use of it anyway. Not just labels and b 1000f or whatever but descriptive labels like end_of_loop
<heat>
noooooo
<heat>
you probably want .Lend_of_loop instead
<heat>
.L labels do not create a local symbol, end_of_loop: will
<gorgonical>
what's a local symbol in this context
<heat>
ELF symbols
<gorgonical>
good news: its one file
<heat>
doesn't matter, if you look at the readelf you'll probably have a boatload of extra symbols
<gorgonical>
No extra symbols in my readelf output
<heat>
hmm ok then
<heat>
that's odd
<gorgonical>
In fact it looks like the assembler got rid of all the labels internally. Only .globls are there
<gorgonical>
Oh no that's not true, the loop labels are there
<gorgonical>
I missed them at first
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<gorgonical>
what's this stray file symbol in my symtab? ccrkNIl0.o ? Its value is zero, is that some c runtime stuff?
<nikolar>
sounds like it
<kof123>
looks more like a temporary filename IMO
<heat>
i haven't seen .o but i have seen plenty of .c
<kof123>
^ i would expect a source filename, not a .o
<nikolar>
nothing shows up when you look it up so guess it's a temporary
<gorgonical>
I wonder how it got in there
<gorgonical>
indeed if I rebuild it changes to cclFeVPe.o so it's some kind of temporary
<gorgonical>
Some compiler temporary I'd guess
<kof123>
if you run -v i think gcc spits out that stuff...dunno about clang/etc.
<gorgonical>
I can see now it's a temp arg passed to collect2
<gorgonical>
-static /tmp/ccMrASSm.o blah blah
<zid>
image not -pipe
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<zid>
Do you think factorio is compiled with -pipe
<zid>
Or is it compiled with -belt
<gorgonical>
You beat me to the joke
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<zid>
2 hours for honzuki
<zid>
<matja> --no-relax for deathworld
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<heat>
strictly speaking the operating systems with the strongest UNIX roots are atm illumos, HPUX and AIX
<heat>
hence superior to the dirty separatist BSDs
<nortti>
what about SCO openserver?
<heat>
oh that's a good one too!
<heat>
i think there's also a unixware version these days, somewhere
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<kof123>
where is plan9 in this equation?
<kof123>
there's roots and then there's Roots
<heat>
plan9 is also a spinoff, but an even worse one than BSD
<heat>
probably THE worst spinoff
<heat>
and not really that spin off either
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<heat>
probably something like illumos (maintained, open source) > AIX > HPUX > SCO openserver (really not maintained much) > BSD (spun off, but has some good UNIX heritage) > macOS Darwin (wtf is going on here) > Linux (dirty nordic UNIX) > plan9 (microkernel)
<kof123>
i would wild guess digital unix/tru 64 is in bsd/darwin/machland there
<kof123>
*in between
<nortti>
how does 2.11BSD rank? still mostly based on unix v6 from what I understand, open source, and still technically getting patches about once a year