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<mjg>
heat afair there was penalty for stores which overlap with an area you rep to
<mjg>
heat that said my code to do aligning is pretty crap but i could not be fucked to do better
<mjg>
patchen welcome
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<Brain___>
its really quiet in here compared to how i remember it ~12 years ago
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* FireFly
shrugs
<GeDaMo>
It'll depend who's awake
<kazinsal>
there's fewer "how do i print bios!!!???" questions and that cuts down on the overall noise
<mjg>
:)
<mjg>
it's not the same "here" tho is it
<mjg>
with introduction of discord
<kazinsal>
yeah, true. "here" primarily consists of those of us who have spent the past 15+ years on IRC and know this is where the no frills debate and discussion happens
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<kazinsal>
the osdev discord is not something I look at often but when I do it feels a lot like a multi-channel version of what this channel was in 2008
<Mutabah>
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
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<mjg>
the real q is how many people still bother to do osdev
<mjg>
and how old they are
<kazinsal>
probably mostly good -- it means the youngins (I say, haven't not quite cracked 30) -- are still interested in this field, enough so that there's a discord for it
<mjg>
there is a rather worrisome pheonomena were everyone doing actual OS work is people past 30
<mjg>
everyone else is doing "backend" at best, where "backend" is not going below DOCKER
<mjg>
or whatever other container do jour
<mjg>
du
<mjg>
afair even LINUKKZ people complained about it
<kazinsal>
I joined up in the hobby systems research space early on in my programming career and chose to instead make datacenter engineering my work so that I a) would still have fun doing systems as a hobby and b) wouldn't be trying to compete for the X number of jobs in the systems sphere that appear per year
<kazinsal>
zero of which happen to appear north of the 49th...
<kazinsal>
and as much as I would love an employer-sponsored visa and green card track I quite like what I do
<mjg>
how many are south of 30
<kazinsal>
honestly probably very very few
<mjg>
my point
<kazinsal>
I'm one of the youngest regulars here at 28
<kazinsal>
but I've also been here for uh
<kazinsal>
more than half my life
<mjg>
there is this funny chess quote
<gog>
mew
<mjg>
"The ability to play chess is the sign of a gentleman. The ability to play chess well is the sign of a wasted life."
* kazinsal
headpats gog
* gog
prr
* kazinsal
scritchies
<mjg>
s/play chess/do OS/
* gog
prr prr
* mjg
barks at gog
<kazinsal>
osdev: chess, but less deterministic
<mjg>
osdev: where basic sanity comes to die
<gog>
i never had basic sanity
<mjg>
kind of a shit sandwhich, is inot it
<mjg>
you deal with FRONTEND and are appaled at all the shit
<kazinsal>
the comp-sci field where all your expectations go to die
<mjg>
so you go way lower and then you find out about reliaites of hardware
<mjg>
the only escape is to abadnon being a practitioner
<mjg>
do LISP instead
<mjg>
you would think therew ould be this great abstraction over crap hw, which would be a joy to code in
<Brain___>
i dont know if this oversells it, because people might get the impression its some 3D GUI, it isnt
<Brain___>
in reality, such things are often impractical to use in the real world
<kazinsal>
I recently re-read through andy hertzfeld's folklore blog about the macintosh development with a freshly jaded set of eyes and it was quite eye-opening as to how the microcomputer revolution turned in that 16-32 bit transitionary era
<Brain___>
i had all kinds of 3D stuff enabled in X11 years ago
<mjg>
> freshly jaded
<mjg>
lmao
<kazinsal>
it helps to understand steve jobs once your eyes have spent untold years dealing with c-levels
<Brain___>
lol that phrase didnt escape me either
<kazinsal>
also dealing with mildly psychotic sales guys who know just enough tech to be dangerous
<mjg>
sales people are the worst
<Brain___>
wait, they know *any* tech?
<Brain___>
"buy this one, its got biggerer rams"
<kazinsal>
in my field the problem is the sales people listen to the pre-sales engineers blindly
<kazinsal>
and the pre-sales people are the ones who know enough to be dangerous
<kazinsal>
because they can understand tech numbers etc but haven't actually implemented anything in 5+ years
<kazinsal>
I am currently dealing with a statement of work that makes zero sense if you have any sort of hands on experience with the hardware and environment but seems like a piece of cake if you don't
<kazinsal>
it *sucks*
<gog>
omg i had the desktop cube thing when xcompmgr was new
<gog>
it was neat but also totally unusable for everyday stuff
<mjg>
kazinsal: the biggest problem is that even people who know something is bad don't care
<mjg>
they say what they can to sell the product and blameshift any problems
<kazinsal>
ah yes. the ol "I got my commission, fuck you figure it out"
<mjg>
if you point something out you land on a shitlist
<kazinsal>
I'm glad my company is small enough that there's only one pre-sales engineer who deals in the shit that I do so even if I'm on his shitlist there's nothing he can do about it
<mjg>
at red hat there was a high level manager who used a skill-les intern "opinion" to justify tech claims
<kazinsal>
he can be mad as hell at me and I just go "yeah what do you want? I could just stop doing your shit projects"
<mjg>
intern was probably scared shitless and nodded to anything
<kazinsal>
pros of being in a 130 person company
<mjg>
this was converted into "engineering team says X"
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<nikolar>
For what it's worth I'm well under 30 and interested in os work
<gog>
i'm halfway to 40 :|
<gog>
halfway between 30 and 40 i mean
<kazinsal>
yeah but you unlocked the magic secret to shave ten years off
<GeDaMo>
Lustrum: a five-year period
<Ermine>
gog: may I pet you
<nikolar>
I guess that few young people being interested in os work means job security for the rest of us kek
<mjg>
good thing chatgpt is interested!
<gog>
Ermine: yes
<nikolar>
It can only handle about 15000 tokens
* Ermine
pets gog
<gog>
kazinsal: true
<nikolar>
I think we're safe for now
<GeDaMo>
I think it's more than 30000 now
<nikolar>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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<Brain___>
gog> yeah desktop cube thats what it reminds me of
<Brain___>
was showy and impractical like most of the compiz desktop effects
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<gog>
yeah, back in the year of the linux desktop
<kazinsal>
yeah, I also miss the dear old year of 2173
* mjg
burps
<mjg>
aight
<gog>
nearly 15 years later and i still have issues with rendering and compositing sometimes, only now caused by prime rendering
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<zid>
I miss compiz fusion
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<heat>
mjg, re: stores before rep movsb, I wonder if that's a caching thing?
<heat>
i know rep movsb post-erms has a rather weak memory ordering or something like that
<heat>
so I can imagine it needing to do something like sfence on stores to that region before starting to copy
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<heat>
erm, not caching, but just memory ordering. you get what i mean
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<moon-child>
hmmm, I was thinking that avx512 masked stores wouldn't have a problem here, but
<moon-child>
1) you could do the masking manually (like you have to do for misaligned memcpy on shitty arches)
<moon-child>
2) rather than branching, what if you covere the first partial cacheline and first full cacheline with overlapping stores, then erms starting from the following cache line?
<moon-child>
oh hmmm
<moon-child>
heat: assuming that's the case, what if you write the head with movnti?
<moon-child>
then maybe movnti and rep movsb go into the same wc cache and there's no problem
<moon-child>
alternately, what if you write the head/tail _after_ the main rep movsb?
<heat>
i don't know, I haven't tested any of this
<heat>
cc mjg
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<gog>
hi
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<geist>
reminds me i'm so excite about commander x16
<geist>
should be for sale relatively soonish
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<heat>
damn hes so lucky
<heat>
i wish i went to clown college
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<bnchs>
hi devs
<heat>
hello devs
<bnchs>
i'm not a dev
<zid>
That's hyping us up a fair amount I feel
<bnchs>
i'm just a person who bangs code together in a dumb way
<heat>
hello not a dev
<bnchs>
zid: hyping you all up for a huge disappointment! :D
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<zid>
I keep disabling various bits of windows update but it's still managing to nag me
<bnchs>
zid: micro$oft has the advantage over you
<bnchs>
they can hardcodde windows update
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<gog>
hi
<gog>
bnchs: banging code together in a dumb way is the essence of development
<gog>
because eventually you'll think of a less dumb way
<zid>
essence of learning, at least
<zid>
not necesssarily of actual development.. we wish
<gog>
there are more rigorous approaches
<gog>
but sometimes you just gotta get things done
<bnchs>
gog: thank you gog, can i pm you?
<gog>
sure
<moon-child>
goddammit
<moon-child>
chrome did that thing again where it makes a duplicate window with all thousand of my tabs
<zid>
sounds fun
<moon-child>
I'm trying to reduce the number of tabs, not increase it :<
<zid>
have you considered
<zid>
not having more than like, 4 tabs
<zid>
what you seem to want is 'bookmarks' :P
<nortti>
not really, as bookmarks lose the place you're at
<nortti>
which, for a thing called "bookmark", is kinda ironic
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<nortti>
(plus also for me personally, a bookmark is out of sight, and therefore might as well not exist. I will most likely get back to the wikipedia list of film and television accidents I have open in a tab even if I forget, but I only really use my bookmarks through tag search to find a specific thing I already know I want)
<zid>
why, if it was a *thousand* tabs ago
<zid>
The only way you get to a thousand is if you're adding faster than you're removing
<nortti>
I've gotten up to 300+ tabs personally, but atm down to 79
<moon-child>
zid, commitment is hard
<zid>
You're like a hoarder, but for URLs, but instead of putting them in a filing cabinet, you get them tattoo'd
<nortti>
closing a tab is possible, quite easy even, once you're done
<zid>
top tip, you can be done before you even think you're done
<zid>
and reopen it just as easily as you found it
<zid>
(it = the tab)
<nortti>
most of my tabs are serendipitous finds. if I discarded them (or bookmarked, see above) I'd probably not find them again
<zid>
That isn't true in practice either though?
<zid>
even after a few tabs, browsers will de-load the actual page and just re-request it if you tab back
<zid>
so all the 'tab' is doing is making your tab bar useless
<nortti>
hm?
<nortti>
I do not see how autodeloading is relevant here? it still exists as a tab-object that it visible if I'm at that part of my tab bar, and remembers my position in the page
<zid>
the position on the page thing is a thing yea, but.. isn't how the web works in my experience, either it's a URL and it works as a URL
<nortti>
(also, I use firefox which instead of shrinking tabs down to uselessness makes the tab bar scroll)
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<zid>
or you have a 'position' and that position is fragile as hell
<bslsk05>
scp-wiki.wikidot.com: Log Of Anomalous Items, Vol III - SCP Foundation
<zid>
but 'Anomalous Items 661 - 670' is not a link to that url
<nortti>
also I have a couple books open, like MacKenzie's Coded Character Sets
<zid>
so you can't just click it where you are to update your url for bookmarking
<zid>
my pdf reader does actually do this automatically which I do find useful
<zid>
if I close a pdf, the next time I re-open it it opens at the same position
<nortti>
so does mine
<nortti>
ah, you meant specifically that
<zid>
so I just dump my pdfs out with ctrl-w once i'm done reading the bit I was reading
<zid>
then open the pdf file again rather than trying to navigate any tabs
<zid>
(exactly how I use a browser)
<nortti>
< zid> so you can't just click it where you are to update your url for bookmarking ← there's also how there's no easy way to update a bookmark once you've navigated off of the specific URL in current browser UIs that I know of. you'd have to hunt it down again or add new bookmark and then remember to delete the old
<zid>
Sounds like what we need are bookmark extensions, rather than tab extensions that make them act like better bookmarks :P
<nortti>
I mean, yeah, if there was a bookmark object that tracks my location within the page and is automatically updated as I navigate, and can be made easily visible in an always-present bar, I think I would use that
<nortti>
for the time being, tabs are almost that
<heat>
300 tabs is nuts
<heat>
how do you even keep track of life at that point
<zid>
It's a symptom heat
<zid>
of a disordered mind and life
<heat>
do browsers even do manual "swapping" of tabs to disk or are you relying on kernel swapping and not getting OOM'd in the meanwhile?