klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<mrvn> Einstein tiles are cool.
<mcrod> h
<mcrod> hi*
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<mjg> heat google bard takes the fucking cake, chatgpt got nothin' on it
<mjg> >
<mjg> Overall, OpenBSD's microkernel and its support for SMP and NUMA make it a good choice for systems with multiple CPUs
<mjg> :]
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<Ermine> Nice microkernel
<Ermine> gog: may I pet you
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<gog> yes
* gog prr
<mjg> need help
* Ermine pets gog
<mjg> should i order pizza or something else
<Ermine> race condition happened
<sakasama> A new host body would be preferable. Please order an extra for me.
<bslsk05> ​www.thelayoff.com: Don't trust your boss - post regarding Red Hat layoffs
<Ermine> Fuck geoblocks
<GeDaMo> Is that site geoblocked? Or was that just a random "fuck geoblocks"? :P
<Ermine> that site is blocked
<mjg> Ermine: where aer you
<mjg> anyhow
<mjg> > About a month ago, my boss along with my colleagues was singing praises about how crucial I was for the upcoming projects. My boss even said that my contributions were going to be so important for the success of the team. And then, out of nowhere, I was told that my position was no longer needed. Don't trust your managers, people. They'll lie in a heartbeat.
<mjg> :D
<mjg> this is corporate 101
<mjg> fucking people thinking it is not need to wake up
<mjg> cc heat sham1
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<gog> unions
<gog> heat: unions
<heat> onions
<gog> those too
<heat> mjg, does read_mostly make a large difference?
<heat> in pErF
<mjg> yes and no
<mjg> it would make real diff if everything was fully annotated
<mjg> since it is not and vars fly around everywhere you get wins or losses depending on shit which is not annotated yet
<mjg> e.g., something false shares by accident or does not
<mjg> real wins come from separating vars which get slapped with atomics
<heat> hmm, I was thinking read_mostly would put you in a separate page?
<mjg> it does
<heat> anyway, I want __ro_after_init or whatever the linux people do
<mjg> but the thing you read_mostly'ed disappeaerd from the original location
<mjg> which shifted other things around
<heat> my vm layout constants became extern unsigned longs :/
<mjg> so in particular it could make them false share *or* no longer flase share
<mjg> as in 2 vars updated with atomics suddently are in the same cacheline
<mjg> or are not
<heat> yeah i understand
<mjg> the real fix imo is to stop the fukcing linker from shitting on vars across .o files
<mjg> this would auto-eliminate most of the problem and increase real locality
<mjg> but it would not achiev ro_after_init, if you are after security
<heat> yes, i know
<heat> ro_after_init gives me securiteh and performance
<heat> poggers!
<mjg> it is a half perf-loss, just like read_mostly
<mjg> because it fucks with locality of adjacent vars which *are* used together
<heat> environment variables are a half perf-loss
<mjg> mentioning perf loss reminded me of RUST
<heat> i think kees (or at least the hardening people) have played around with variables that are mostly-read and when you need to perform a rare write you disable CR0.WP, (or use an alias mapping, etc, depending on the arch)
<heat> so they effectively get RO'd except when you do need to write
<mjg> that would work but i don't know if its worth the cmlpexity
<mjg> if you want to fix something which matters, here is something
<mjg> ebpf pages get temp mapped writable
<mjg> and then remapped rx
<mjg> or just x
<mjg> this results in IPIs to tlb shootdown
<mjg> who gives a fuck you ask
<mjg> answer: if you log in over ssh on linux, you end up invoking this shit
<mjg> and someone one channel over complained it on a router -- they get a latency spike for loggin in :O
<mjg> the idea to fix would be to use DMAP for writes
<mjg> there is moer to it of course but that's the gist
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<gog> is programming even worth it
<Ermine> It's not
<gog> i knew it
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<zid> just become the other kind of programmer
<zid> someone very good at using instagram
<gog> i'd rather program computer
<gog> maybe it is worth it
<Ermine> better compute program
<zid> how do I get a sponsorship to play factorio all day
<Ermine> Please share if you find one
<zid> Maybe I should just send random emails to corporations, claiming I am an influencer
<zid> billions of people know who I am
<zid> ooh good idae: "henlo I am maek youtube video, I will be needing 144 cans of dr pepper can I hab pls?"
<jimbzy> Haha
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<innegatives> In here https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/cwd:cdq:cqo it says "DX := SignExtend(AX);" at "Operation". It should be "DX:AX := SignExtend(AX);" instead, right? is it a mistake?
<bslsk05> ​www.felixcloutier.com: CWD/CDQ/CQO — Convert Word to Doubleword/Convert Doubleword to Quadword
<GeDaMo> innegatives: well, AX doesn't change but DX gets set to the sign value of AX
<innegatives> ok thanks
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<heat> mjg, hmm, is that when jitting?
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<mjg> heat: probably
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<innegatives> Hey, would you implement LOCK instruction if you are making 8086 emu to run ms/dos, or is it unnecessary?
<mjg> heat: you can ebpf to find out :X
<innegatives> if you have a LOOP instruction and CX == 0, does it still decrement CX?
<bslsk05> ​www.intel.com: Intel® 64 and IA-32 Architectures Software Developer Manuals
<heat> mjg, lol
<heat> mjg, do you freebsd pervs have any sort of -pg/mcount handling for profiling?
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<mjg> lo${f-word}l
<mjg> yes and no, in short pmcstat is currently mostly b0rked but there is wip patchset to fix it
<mjg> with that in place you can mostly profile userspace
<heat> yeah but i mean kernal
<innegatives> Do you happen to know which version of IBM MS/DOS was the first to include 55 AA bootsector magic?
<innegatives> Cuz 1.10 doesn't
<innegatives> I guess 2.00 does
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<mjg> heat: that got whacked for being dogshit
<mjg> heat: what you can do is sample on specific cpu events tho
<innegatives> MS/DOS 2.00 has "arpl" instruction in its bootsector. 8086 doesn't have that instruction afaik, wtf is this?
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<bnchs> innegatives: did you know that OSes can emulate certain instructions that a CPU doesn't have?
<bnchs> with a custom illegal instruction trap handler
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<mjg> dafaq is arpl anyway?
<bslsk05> ​www.felixcloutier.com: ARPL — Adjust RPL Field of Segment Selector
<mjg> aight
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<heat> mjg, why's it dogshit?
<mjg> heat: if you mean recompiling the binary to have a fuckton of added code to support "profiling" (and that's what it used to be), then it should be self-explanatory
<heat> but they're nop'ed out
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<mjg> their existence fucks with actual profiling
<heat> there's no overhead until that shit gets patched though?
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<heat> where would that fuck you over?
<mjg> for example various loop targets will shift from 8 -> 16 alignment by accident
<mjg> or back to 8
<mjg> and if you -falign-loops=16 to nullify this problem you just increased icache footprint
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<heat> how?
<mjg> how what
<zid> how what
<mjg> nops take space i how
<heat> how will those shift m8
<mjg> :]
<mjg> is
<heat> then your codegen is brittle
<mjg> did i mention yet how volatile this is?
<heat> what is?
<mjg> have you read that paper which benched -O2 vs -O3 and so on
<heat> yes m8
<heat> well, not O2 vs O3 but I know the effect
<mjg> then you should know that whatever perf you benched got disfigured
<heat> that preso where environment variables changed the speed of the prog
<bslsk05> ​'"Performance Matters" by Emery Berger' by Strange Loop Conference (00:42:15)
<heat> yes, that one
<mjg> it's not only that, but ye
<bslsk05> ​'Legolas forgets Aragorn's father's name' by sirN4NCEalot (00:00:31)
<mjg> :S
<mjg> i don't know if you are to young to be expected to have this movie under your belt
<heat> i have never watched that shit, no
<heat> cuz that's for NERDS
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<mjg> mate, given your age, it is plausible you relaly did not
<mjg> so don't fuck with me here
<heat> did not what
<mjg> did not see LOTR
<heat> it's not an age thing
<heat> i just... don't care about LOTR
<mjg> did you watch dragon ball z?
<heat> yes when I was a kid
<heat> remember jack shit about it though, except idk, vegeta or something
<mjg> :S
<mjg> youth today!
<heat> ANYWAY, if your loop speeds matter a lot, add more attributes to them? (I think hot applies to loops too?)
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<heat> or -falign-loops=16
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<heat> like, hoping the loops get automagically 16-aligned sounds brittle enough to me
<mjg> it is a tradeoff between icache footprint and loop speed
<mjg> and you are fucking with it with your nops
<mjg> and i'm not really convinced it is worth it given the current support for profiling
<mjg> where is my ebpf fix
<heat> up yer arse :p
<heat> i know very little about the ebpf code so i'll maybe maybe maybe look into it later
<heat> fwiw most linux kernels get CONFIG_FUNCTION_TRACER=y'd
<heat> "If it's runtime disabled (the bootup default), then the overhead of the instructions is very small and not measurable even in micro-benchmarks (at least on x86, but may have impact on other architectures)."
<heat> per kconfig
<mjg> is that just nops on entry point?
<mjg> if so that's cheap af
<mjg> also note linux skips the usual func prologie/epilogu
<mjg> e
<heat> yes dude
<heat> that's what I've been talking about
<heat> it's just a 5 byte nop
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<mjg> maybe i confused it with the old tracing facility
<mjg> it "instruments" the shit out of everything bloating the code into oblivion
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<mjg> so ye, nops on entry are a-ok
<mjg> check out kgmon :X
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<heat> mjg, what old tracing facility?
<heat> freebsd-specific or a compiler thing?
<mjg> old unix shit afair
<mjg> or vax bsd specific
<bslsk05> ​osr507doc.sco.com: ctrace(CP)
<gog> hi
<bslsk05> ​'Home Alone with My Cat (OwlKitty Parody)' by OwlKitty (00:00:48)
<mjg> gog: you may enjoy this channel
<bslsk05> ​'Pulp Fiction with a Cat' by OwlKitty (00:00:26)
<gog> good kitty
<heat> immense felis catus
<bnchs> mew
<mjg> ey genz, have you even seen pulp fiction tho?
<mjg> bonus question, have you seen fight club?
<heat> yes
<heat> i have not seen fight club but it's in my to-watch list
<zid> imagine not having seen fight club
<mjg> not a generation-defining movie but glengarry glenn ross is great
<zid> "What's the matrix?" "Who's titanic?"
<mjg> zid: i'm not gonna rip on it
<mjg> just make sure you catch up :X
<zid> "Terminator 2? Is that about programming?"
<mjg> is that a BNC horror story?
<heat> i've seen terminator and all other garbage 80s movies
<heat> if i have to watch fuckin die hard for the 30th time i'll lose it
<zid> terminator is meh
<zid> terminator 2 is one of the best movies ever made
<Ermine> I didn't watch fight club too
<heat> "die hard" but no one dies while being erect
<zid> die hard 2 is also the good die hard
<mjg> Ermine: how old are you
<mjg> terminator 2 is the only great movie in the franchise, the rest is skippable at bst
<Ermine> younger than fight club
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<zid> Fight club was what, 8 years ago?
<heat> MY MAN
<heat> .. wait hold on let me watch this US presidents tiktok first
<mjg> "genz humor compilation" is "try to laugh challenge"
<mjg> heat: ey mofer, what about "godfather"?
<zid> godfather movies too old to be enjoyable without the nostalgia ngl
<Ermine> fight club was released in 1999, no?
<zid> Ermine: yea 1999
<mjg> zid: i tried watching them back to back and they SUCK in that setting for sure
<zid> Which was ~8 years ago according to my internal clock
<heat> i've actually never watched the godfather movies
<zid> you can skip em
<heat> i have watched goodfellas
<mjg> heat: don't watch them but don't admit to it
<zid> watch casino instead :P
<zid> and goodfellas
<mjg> zid: OH get your fucking shinebox
<heat> also watched the irishman
<zid> the irishman was so bad lol
<heat> i liked it but it was slightly confusing
<heat> and looooooooong
<mjg> watch THE SOPRANOS
<zid> 3 hours of "We get deniro before he's too old to do anything else"
<heat> could've watched 3000 tiktoks
<zid> they're trying to be casino, basically
<zid> watch casino instead
<bslsk05> ​'The Sopranos - Patsy and Burt failed extortion attempt at "Starbucks"' by amigomac (00:01:38)
<heat> have you watched the da vinci code
<heat> it's the best bad movie ever
<mjg> no
<heat> watch it, it's worth it
<zid> no
<heat> yes
<zid> I don't subscribe to "it's so bad it's good", at all
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<zid> It's bad and it's bad.
<Ermine> never used tiktok. I feel myself at intersection of genz and millenials
<heat> it's so bad it's good is definitely a thing
<mjg> huh
<mjg> can't find the english title
<zid> I do not subscribe to that newsletter.
<mjg> but the absolute best bad movie was by peter jackson
<zid> The Pianist is a good bad movie
<heat> for example: any of the old ass 007s
<mjg> that's tohe one
<bslsk05> ​www.imdb.com: Dead Alive (1992) - IMDb
<zid> By which I mean you feel worse for having watched it, but is cinematically excellent.
<mjg> > A young man's mother is bitten by a Sumatran rat-monkey. She gets sick and dies, at which time she comes back to life, killing and eating dogs, nurses, friends, and neighbors.
<heat> >roman pol
<zid> mjg, have you seen arachnaphobia
<mjg> fucking not even B-rated synopsis should be enough of an apetizer
<zid> I used to watch that every time it was on T
<zid> TV
<mjg> zid: no
<zid> aww shame, it was good
<zid> not like, amazing, but it's a good random 80s movie
<zid> like the goonies or whatever
<mjg> meh
<mjg> have you seen edge of tomorrow?
<zid> what's that tom hanks one about the weird neighbours.. the burbs!
<mjg> that's a great "fuck it and have fun" movie
<zid> that's the 2001 disaster movie?
<GeDaMo> Is Arachnophobia from the 80s? :|
<zid> 2014
<zid> fuck that
<zid> GeDaMo: 1990, so it was made in the 80s
<mjg> glengarry glen ross then mofer
<GeDaMo> Yeah, still older than I thought
<zid> I am also like this
<gog> i've been watching boardwalk empire
<zid> I was born in the 80s but grew up in the 90s
<heat> quentin tarentino could make a 3h movie of him shitting in a bucket and I'd eat that shit up
<zid> I am arachnophobia
<mjg> gog: nice
<heat> literally? yes. Metaphorically? yes
<zid> Can we clone jeff daniels from the 80s and have him make movies again
<mjg> ey mofer do you like miami vice :X
<mjg> i tried atching it and holy shit how is it so bad
<zid> Can someone reboot my PC for me and plug my usb card in
<zid> I cbf to restart all my programz
<gog> mjg: it's pretty damn good
<gog> steve buscemi in a serial drama of cinema quality is what the world didn't know it needed
<mjg> dude stars in THE SOPRANOS
<mjg> which yous hould have watched first
<mjg> just sayin'
<gog> i have watched it
<mjg> aight
<heat> have you watched "the death of stalin"?
<gog> oh that's right!
<mjg> heat is a FANUK
<gog> cousin tony
<mjg> tried it straight
<heat> steve buscemi as khrushchev was brilliant
<mjg> gog: that animal blundetto, yes
<gog> haha
<gog> tony b
<mjg> sacred and the propane
<zid> death of stalin is a riot
<gog> steve buscemi's brother played a schizophrenic guy who calls himself 'god' and shouts obscenities at people on the street in nurse jackie
<gog> who is also a gifted artist
<zid> jason isaacs doing a yorkshire accent for the part is an A+ take
<kof123> death of stalin is great <skates by> "play better!" ... need to see the recent john wick
<mjg> oooh
<heat> the movie is like 5x better with that than if they had made up some really shitty russian accents
<mjg> one flew over cuckoos nest
<mjg> motherfucker
<mjg> 's the movie to wach
<zid> why
<zid> it's boring and old
<zid> like, amazingly boring
<mjg> OH
<zid> It's like the deer hunter but only the first part
<zid> and then it ends
<mjg> not enough explosionsfor you
<zid> no, not enough *anything*
<zid> He literally just sits in a chair in a medical facility for a week
<zid> and has silted conversations with ill people
<zid> It's got less plot than an episode of Arthur
<heat> i both really liked and really disliked homeland
<heat> great show but soooo boring sometimes
<heat> also, really, 8 seasons? m8
<mjg> wait
<mjg> heat
<mjg> have you seen LOST?
<zid> LOST is what made me stop watching american TV, and I didn't even see lost
<mjg> it was the biggest shit around 2005-2010
<zid> I just heard people raving about it constantly, while knowing it looked shitty, and then watching it get shitty enough that the people who liked it started hating it
<heat> i have not seen lost
<mjg> and suddenly everyone stopped talking about it
<zid> They wrote it into the ground
<zid> like all american TV shows
<mjg> zid: ye they really trolled the audience
<zid> They get recomissioned per series
<mjg> albeit that's nothing compared to s8 of got
<zid> so they have to write up more and more exceptional bullshit because this is either the *last* series or the 2nd series, at random
<heat> hot take: a show with more than 3 seasons usually means it's starting to suck
<mjg> well
<mjg> lost summed up in one term: MYSTERY BOX
<mjg> authors neglected to mention the box is empty
<zid> hotter take: Anything that made it to 3 seasons was usually already bad, you just cared less because it was novel
<mjg> fuck that show for continuing
<zid> fallout 4
<mjg> fucking bold and beautiful of non-soap opear
<zid> The entire video game is about a mysterious institute with unknown motives constantly fucking with you
<zid> The reveal is that
<zid> The end.
<zid> *watches taskmaster*
<mjg> as far as i'm concdred the fallout series died with the second game
<mjg> s/died/ended/
<zid> fonv was decent
<zid> brother of steel / fo3 are bad
<zid> fo4 is like.. an interesting *game*, as in, clicking the mouse is sorta fun
<zid> the actual product they sold is bad
<heat> i never liked fallout nor skyrim
<zid> skyrim also bad
<zid> morrowind good
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<geist> zelda is good
<bnchs> osdev
<heat> i've never played zelda
<heat> bnchs, shut up nerd!
<bnchs> heat: no i thought i was in the wrong channel
<bnchs> but it is indeed #osdev
<geist> yeah botw 2 dropped yesterday, it's good so far
<gog> my wife has a copy of botw and hasn't used her switch in quite a while
<gog> i haven't played a zelda game in many years
<gog> i should playit
<heat> dark soul
<gog> dark soul did not keep my attention
<heat> fuck off seriously gog wtf bad take
<gog> ok
<heat> dark soul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<gog> i didn't say it was a bad game, i said it did not keep my attention
<gog> my tastes are not objective truth
<geist> yeah same. dark souls is not my thing
<heat> counter strike > darketh souleth > paradox video games > older total wars > anything valve > everything else
<geist> yeah that explains a lot
<heat> and this is FAX!
<heat> why
<geist> just the type of games you like are exactly the kind i dont like
<geist> which is of course okay, just i'm not a huge fan of high stress and PVP games
<heat> :)
<heat> map games are not high stress
<geist> more of an explore, story, puzzle, build, or simulation for me
<geist> whta is a map game?
<zid> dark soul has an entry fee before it's great, same with sekiro imo
<bslsk05> ​'Europa Universalis IV' - ''
<geist> yeah that's probably fun
<zid> I put 2k hours into EU4 but now I'm missing half the dlc
<zid> and don't know what I am doing
<zid> so I've not played it in forever
<geist> i just dont particularly like high stress PVP things like counterstrike, or destiny in pvp mode, etc
<zid> Only pvp game I seriously played was starcraft 2
<geist> they're fun, but high stress, and i like to use gaming as a way to *reduce* stress in my life
<heat> i haven't played actual video games that are not football manager since like august 2022
<zid> I've played a few otehrs casually
<kof123> "citizens are upset, they are hoarding the tp" -- simcity 2040 (not meant to imply anything except a revision would have some new crisises)
<heat> oh and dark souls, had a bunch of weeks where I played a lot of it
<geist> also like building things for a while. like Astroneer
<geist> also explore and sandbox stuff like No Man's Sky
<zid> factorio + terraria are the two true games
<geist> yeah
<heat> space engineers?
<geist> Oxygen Not Included
<zid> I also like the 'small studio puzzle game' phenomena
<geist> kinda bounced off space engineers. maybe should jst put more time into it
<geist> also a fun one i randomly discovered last year: Ship Breakers
<zid> stephen's susage roll, baba is you, monster's expedition, toki tori, etc
<geist> totes
<geist> also i will mostly drop whatever i'm doing if a new metroidvania comes out
<heat> unravel is gr8, i totally need to finally get into it
<geist> especially if it's retro
<geist> especially if it's more exploration than hard boss fights
<heat> i remember the unravel guy pouring his heart out on stage in E3 like 2014 or something
<zid> I'd like to play more bloodstained ritual of the night
<geist> yeah i remember playing unravel one. it was amazing
<zid> but my controller's right stick is broken
<geist> yep, i finished ritual of the night. was pretty good
<heat> there's a sequel too!
<zid> It broke while I was 2 hours into the hardest mode
<zid> I think heat should buy me a new one so we can play fifa
<heat> i haven't played fifa since like fifa 2011
<zid> (and I can play trackmania and bloodstained)
<zid> yea but I need a hook
<zid> to get you invested in buying me a new controller
<geist> get you a zid kickstarter going
<geist> just show some sad pictures of your old xeon machine
<zid> ikr
<geist> add some fake cobwebs and plastic spiders on it
<zid> fake?
<zid> why would I need to add fake ones
<geist> even better!
<zid> It's 12 years old!
<zid> It's got a hearty collection of real ones
<geist> though actually didn't you say you recently got something new one?
<zid> yea I'm on a 5800x now
<heat> zid super PAC when?
<zid> anyone wanna trade a xeon for a controller?
<geist> oh rad. welcome to team red
<zid> Intel is dead
<zid> Xeon was great, so was coal
<geist> god i have too many old computers already. i need to start donating locall
<zid> that board might be relatively fixable
<zid> but I don't have parts or microsoldering gear or whatever it needs
<heat> tfw your local homeless shelter figures out what to do with a SPARC machine
<zid> think I'd need an spi flasher module and a new flash chip as a minimum
<geist> well, there is a local facebook group that's like 'free stuff on the island' that folks will just show up and take it away
<geist> but in that case theres kinda an obligation to clean it up, make sure it's stable, etc
<geist> because you're not just donating it to some recycling thing, someone is presumably going to want to actually use it
<zid> **UNTESTED** A+++++
<zid> you need those keywords
<zid> and you can do anything
<geist> sure, but the point is to actually give a working thing to a person that needs it
<geist> otherwise yeah if it's just going to be parted, dont care
<geist> being the engineer i am that means take each computer out, find a disk for it, get it cleaned up, load up windows on it, run memtester and prime95 on it for a day. then declare it stable and donatable
<heat> why would you load up MICRO$HIT WINBLOW$
<geist> because that's what everyone wants
<heat> no, force feed them a linux distro
<geist> i could
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<geist> that's usually the default thing i toss on things
<zid> oh ps4 controllers are way cheaper than they used to be, last time I locked was COVIDGANZA so maybe there was a spike
<heat> Haaaaaaaaave you tried fedora?
<zid> £30 now rather than £60
<innegatives> I just found out that IBM PC had 8088 till AT, which had 286. Does that mean I can't run IBM MS/DOS on 8086 emulator?
<geist> side note, i finally upgraded my main windows gaming machine to windows 11 from 10
<zid> oh I read that backwards
<geist> verdict: no real advantage, but mostly as stable as 10, but a little quirky
<heat> geist, fwiw depending on the age of the computer you probably should just load up gnew slash linux
<zid> That you'd upgraded to windows 10 from 11, and was impressed as your acumen
<zid> at your*
<zid> I'd still be running xp64 if it were viable, w7 is.. tolerable, after *much* fiddling
<geist> heat: <sbhrug> i understandwehat you’re sayiong and you’re probably saying it in jest, but i’ve literally thought about this for like 500 msec
<zid> disabling about 80 services, uninstalling a bunch of 'windows shop' and cortana bullshit, changing 20-30 policies, etc
<heat> yeah
<zid> w10 is*
<heat> i like windows 11 and the centered start menu
<zid> w7 I know how to pare down to something I actually like, w10 still annoys me massively
<geist> probably will justdo that. but honestly 100% of regular people that would be like ‘oh yay i need a computer my last one died and i need topay the bills’ will not know what to do with linux
<heat> yes totally, computerz are hard
<zid> like, did nobody actually ever try to *use* w10
<geist> and 100% of people that would want to use linux would just immediately repave it with whatever distro they like
<zid> so, I start typing a path into the bar I am supposed to type paths into, it autocompletes for me:
<Ermine> There's always LTSC with much of bullshit off
<zid> If anybody can tell me what button to press to actually get it to *use* the autocomplete result, lmk
<zid> because nobody I have asked thinks it's possible
<geist> i found windows 10/11 with the microsoft terminal app + powertoys is a fairly nice experience
<heat> geist, otoh most people do not /really/ require windows. like chromebooks show
<geist> even started just using builtin ssh, etc with the terminal app
<zid> like telephones show
<heat> give em a google chrome and it Just Works
<zid> they want a page they can press their APPS from
<geist> heat: sure, but it's also not *my* job to change their opinion
<zid> no filessytem
<zid> and a working web browser
<geist> indeed, my parents are 100% chromebook. have been for years. honestly i dont mind using chromebooks
<zid> Like, most people under 30 *cannot use a filesystem*
<zid> they're just too used to appz and it just shows you all your 'stuff' in a fuzzy search / gallery format
<geist> of course i have a lot of random free hardware from work, so i can basically just leave a chromebook in every room and just pick it up
<puck> i think we tried getting one of my grandparents onto a chromebook (or well, older laptop with pre-chromeos flex) and failed miserably lol
<Ermine> I wonder what sound server do they use
<geist> but that's actually what chromebooks are perfect for: pick one up, do some browsing, put it down
<zid> (Also see, nobody can answer my trivial w10 question)
<puck> Ermine: custom
<heat> haha
<zid> You can even make guesses if you want
<Ermine> puck: is it open source?
<puck> zid: ..tab? :p
<geist> zid: eh?
<puck> Ermine: nearly all of chromeos is
<zid> That's tab.
<GeDaMo> Press enter?
<puck> wait am i being bamboozled by the focus on the first screenshot
<zid> enter opens explorer
<GeDaMo> In that folder?
<zid> yes
<GeDaMo> Is that not what you want?
<zid> which *sorta works* but isn't actually what I wanted to do
<zid> I wanted to accept the suggestion
<puck> right arrow key?
<geist> side note, one of the nice tings i've seen with w11 is explorer does tabs more nicelier. i dont remember that in w10
<bslsk05> ​chromium.googlesource.com: chromiumos/third_party/adhd - Git at Google
<zid> (right arrow key then left arrow key does work, and is what I use currently)
<Ermine> puck: thank you
<puck> zid: ah, yeah, i think this is a Power User Feature they don't do. i'm tempted to suggest win+r for your path navigation, i think that has the behavior you want
<heat> geist, have you uncentered the start menu yet?
<geist> 100%
<heat> :(
<zid> puck: unfortunately, my keyboard doesn't have a win key
<heat> i think it's a good idea
<geist> honestly the biggest gripe is the taskbar. i hate that it insists on collapsing windows from the same app into one icon
<heat> kinda like macOS's dock
<zid> I'd have to do ctrl-esc, run, enter, F:\of [down arrow]
<zid> (and win-r is actually really hard to type)
<geist> zid: on windows? should be able to win-r, f:\of
<geist> oh.
<kof123> yes, collapse into one icon...then next scrollbar arrows, then ...
<geist> i have win-r so built into my brain now i just do it without typing. and then powertoys has it's own set of popups you can enable
<geist> for things like sleep and shutdown and whatnot
<kof123> tear-off/sticky menus...just a matter of time
<zid> I spent like 80 hours looking for a keyboard and this is the best I could find
<zid> and it's crap
<puck> actually, i wonder if powertoys run does the thing
<geist> i'll get used to the w11 collapsed windows, but i dont like it. have all this taskbar real estate to use and can't use it because it smashes things into basically like 1/10 of the width of the screen
<geist> i'm used to having lots of chrome windows by topic, naming the window, and then having an easy to read list of windows with the name on it
<zid> oh yea, w11 doesn't have a don't group taskbar entries mode right?
<kof123> i actually hate it to, just find it
<zid> unusable.
<geist> like 'main' or 'programming' or 'game' or whatnot
<zid> imagine using a PC and not having two copies of explorer open
<zid> ever in your life ever
<kof123> *too just find it ... nostalgic
<geist> zid: yeah honestly given that there's no real advantage for w11 yet that's enough of a deal breaker where i wouldn't upgrade to it if you dont have to
<zid> It took me what, 5 years past eol to upgrade from w7
<puck> zid: i don't have a windows instance here, but i wonder if https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/run will have the behavior you want
<bslsk05> ​learn.microsoft.com: PowerToys Run utility for Windows | Microsoft Learn
<zid> and only because I wasn't sure this hw would work on w7
<zid> so it was a decent excuse
<geist> yeah try out powertoys, it's a lot of fun hacks and pretty officially supported
<geist> it might have what you want
<zid> curious: How are you *expected* to type alt-space?
<zid> I have one thumb
<zid> oh, left + right
<geist> depends on your keyboard layout
<zid> Hadn't even *considered* using both hands for it :D
<geist> on us keyboards at least alt and space are right next to each other
<zid> so natural to try use one hand
<zid> oh you just fat finger it?
<geist> OTOH i think that's configurable. almost everything is configurable in powertoys
<geist> basically
<zid> my keyboard isn't good enough for that it seems
<geist> but also am use to that shortcut since macs have used basically that forever
<zid> the sway bar thing doesn't extend far enough under the space key
<geist> mostly just do like index finger + thumb to get both keys
<puck> anyways choose a better shortcut :p
<geist> what your space bar sucks enough that you have to hit the center of it?
<zid> this is a lovely page, where do I.. get it
<heat> meanwhile on linux desktop: audio servers!!!!!!!!!
<zid> geist: no, just >20% <80%
<geist> you can use like ring finger + thumb an inch or two ofver
<geist> you get used to it pretty fast
<zid> I'll just have to use both hands
<puck> heat: pipewire is Good ime
<geist> powertoys you can do with the msft store, otherwise i think you can .msi install it
<geist> it's open sauce, probably has a github page for it
<zid> I've yet to run the store app, I'm scared it will install purble palace again if I reopen it
<zid> after I deleted half the preinstalled apps
<zid> from cmd
<heat> puck, i've had shit experiences with pulse, i've had shit experiences with pipewire
<geist> it wont. honestl if it's a utility and it's installable from the store app, it works reasonably well, and will be updated
<geist> but i only have like 5 things from the store app, so YMMV
<Ermine> don't worry, it didn't so last time i've checked
<heat> pipewire is better at least
<puck> heat: i had pipewire glitch a bunch but it's been pretty stable for me - and might actually beat that standards xkcd
<zid> okay then so the next question is how do I start the store
<geist> but in all seriousness if you go to the powertoys link there's literally a button 'install powertoys'
<geist> which takes you to a page that tells you how to download it
<geist> so..
<bslsk05> ​learn.microsoft.com: Install PowerToys | Microsoft Learn
<zid> this is the link I needed
<heat> puck, and then otoh wayland still kind of sucks, and so does X11, and so does anything else
<geist> anyway, fiddle with that. there's a bazillion options in it. unforunately one of the options is not 'fix the fucking taskbar'
<heat> becausssssssssssssssssse linux desktop fucking suckkkkkkkkkkkks
<zid> did w11 ever fix the window tearing
<puck> heat: idk, X isn't great, wayland isn't great but is getting there
<zid> that's been here since dwm
<geist> apparently MSFT is really doubling down on w11 taskbar. used to have a registry setting to restore the separate windows behavior in beta, but apparently is hard removed now
<heat> also discord screensharing in linux wayland is busted
<Ermine> Plasma is nice actually
<geist> now the only fix for it is literally a binary patch for it
<heat> my best bet is to use discord on chrome to screenshare
<nikolar> It's really easy to fix tearing on Linux though, you need to set an option in some file can't remember where exactly
<puck> heat: the kde people have a fix! also discord should update their electron
<nikolar> Arch wiki for the rescue
<zid> nikolar: shame I need to fix it on windows then
<geist> zid: i have never seen windows tearing, ever
<bslsk05> ​invent.kde.org: David Edmundson / xwaylandvideobridge · GitLab
<Ermine> discord is borked and devs do not want to do anything about this
<geist> well, within the last 10-15 years
<bslsk05> ​invent.kde.org: System / XWayland Video Bridge · GitLab
<zid> windows has torn since dwm was invoked and w10 still tears
<nikolar> Shame indeed
<puck> Ermine: hey at least they don't do the Zoom thing
<zid> put a youtube video behind a pdf viewer
<heat> puck, i think the AUR has discords with newer electrons?
<zid> scroll the pdf viewer
<geist> zid: that sounds like a broken install, bad hardware, bad drivers, something
<zid> the exact bounding box of the youtube video will update a frame late
<zid> for the past 15 years
<geist> oh, that's not windows tearing, that's just the app being slow
<puck> Ermine: of saying "hi i am Gnome Screenshots and i would like to do 30 screenshots per second"
<geist> wwindows tearing is like you drag the window and it tears
<zid> It tears, it is tearing
<geist> within the app, sure. if it's slow to update, etc
<nikolar> Lol unpacking default discord and stuffing it into newer electron
<geist> pdf tearing is just need a bigger computer or a better pdf viewer
<zid> their dirty rectangle alg gets out of sync with itself
* geist shrugs
<zid> the *pdf* isn't tearing, the *rendering* is tearing
<geist> hell i see that everywhere, except maybe mac
<Ermine> puck: what did zoom devs smoke?
<heat> crack
<puck> Ermine: workarounds
<geist> but then mayb ei see it less since i run on a 144hz screen
<zid> okay this alt-space thing works, I just need to.. undo 20 years of ctrl-esc
<puck> zid: or map it over >:3
<geist> so tearing there of any type is less pronounced
<zid> I want ctrl-esc still though I think
<puck> Ermine: the one that takes the least amount of mental effort because do you think Zoom can afford Linux devs
<zid> maybe
<Ermine> They can say "we do not support Linux" as well and do not spend money on linux devs at all
<puck> Ermine: also the gnome devs did fuck up by not properly restricting the screenshot interface, to some degree
<puck> tho it's hard to protect against internal API abuse
<heat> Ermine, yes and then linux people complain that MICRO$HIT WINBLOW$ (or ZoomShitWinBlows) doesn't care about linux!
<heat> at least it works
<puck> i kinda wonder how well the xwayland video bridge works
<geist> oh yeah never thought that zoom might not work on linux, i assumed it had a linux port because.
<Ermine> heat: those people will always complain at something?
<Ermine> s/?//
<geist> can you zoom from a browser though?
<puck> sometimes
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<Ermine> You have zoom on linux? Wayland when? pipewire when? flatpak when? $newshinytech when?
<Ermine> RIIR when?
<puck> zoom does wayland/pipewire nowadays (but also checks if it runs on GNOME because fuck you), and there's a flatpak for it
<Ermine> flatpak is unofficial afaik
<puck> yes
<puck> but it exists :p
<puck> just run wayland and pipewire on freebsd
<Ermine> But anyway, if some other technology will be released, people would start demanding supporting it. Wayland and PW are examples here
<heat> i demand a sane desktop experience
<heat> i'll never get it on linux
<puck> tbf i think a lot of projects still use pulseaudio even on pipewire
<heat> KDE is garbo, GNOME is garbo
<Ermine> puck: moreover, pipewire devs advice using pulseaudio api
<Ermine> KDE is not so garbo
<puck> heat: when my desktop fell over (due to what i thought was a gpu failure but was actually a psu failure, which i figured out *after* buying a new gpu) i ended up running fedora+gnome for the lols and it sure was an experience
<heat> in all honesty if my desktop was just a chrome instance i'd be happy-ish
<puck> i kinda wonder what the kde ux is like these days
<heat> Ermine, my KDE sometimes starts randomly flickering
<puck> at least it's not tearing,
<heat> I truly appreciate the "do you have epilepsy" tests
<heat> also firefox on wayland is broken
<puck> ..how?
<Ermine> Idk, I changed my gpu to amd and my experience became smooth
<puck> Ermine: both were amd cards! my experience with nvidia cards is .. weird
<heat> puck, weird flickering, sometimes the text cursor decides to disa-fucking-pear in the middle of writing in a text box
<heat> so I switched to chrome and it Just Works fine!
<puck> tbf this feels like the experience a coworker has when hotplugging two external monitors on a laptop with nvidia graphics (and eDP-1 routed to intel gpu)
<puck> heat: hrm, are both running on EGL?
<Ermine> firefox can't get its sharing indicator right on wayland
<puck> oh yeah that one is fun in sway
<heat> puck, idunno
<puck> heat: modern firefox uses EGL for both X and wayland, so it really shouldn't change behavior
<heat> all I know is that hurr durr evil chrome bad gogle!!!!1!1 works so much better than firefox
<heat> a good bit faster too
<Ameisen> Turns out that MSVC cannot take an array of unions and return just a value, it will always dereference. Or take an array (that is constexpr/constinit) and just cast the address to something else. Always emits a memory read.
<Ermine> I use sway for a month on fedora 38, and it works quite smoothly
<Ameisen> Clang and GCC handle that case fine
<heat> everything in FOSS desktop is at least slightly broken
<bslsk05> ​godbolt.org: Compiler Explorer
<puck> heat: is everything on macOS / Windows perfectly working?
<heat> i don't know
<puck> (the answer is no)
<Ermine> Nowadays I get artifacts when doing WiDi
<heat> my windows and macOS experiences were a lot more polished
<bnchs> Ameisen: do not use MSVC
<heat> and i'm telling you this as a person that cannot use macOS to save his life
<Ameisen> bnchs: easier said that done.
<Ameisen> this is just a rather critical part of things here.
<bnchs> lol, if you wanna port a program to windows, use mingw with GCC
<Ameisen> I would usually just use clang-cl
<Ermine> my windows experience was super polished in the times of winXP and win7, nowadays my linux experience == my windows experience more or less
<Ameisen> the resulting object code with LTO isn't compatible with MSVC though
<heat> puck, it turns out when the tiny FOSS desktop community fragments itself into stupid little opinionated bits, you get dog crap wrapped in cat shit
<Ameisen> thus it causes compatibility issues
<puck> heat: eh, KDE and Gnome are both pretty big groups
<puck> my issue is i'm pretty sure i've gotten very used to all the quirks of all the big OSes
<puck> so i can't really go "oh [experience] is smoother"
<Ermine> but actually every os sucks
<bnchs> Ameisen: well i think Clang has a MSVC compatibility mode
<puck> Ermine: except haiku,,
<heat> yes, use Onyx
<Ameisen> It does, but that doesn't change the bitcode output :)
<Ameisen> that's always going to be LLVM bitcode for clang
<heat> i wholeheartedly admit that it sucks. period.
<heat> you know what you're getting upfront!
<Ameisen> basically means you cannot make a static library that supports LTO/LTCG with clang-cl to be consumed by MSVC.
<Ermine> heat: so you are the most honest osdev out there
<heat> absolutely
<puck> just use clang with mimcrossoft codegen,
<puck> (Clang/C2 i think is very dead now)
<heat> should you use linux instead? yes. windows? yes macos? yes freebsd? absolutely not, what the fuck
<Ameisen> Clang with Microsoft Codegen is Clang/C2
<puck> yes
<Ameisen> but yeah, it's very dead though
<Ameisen> I'd rather MSVC just handle this annoying vase
<Ameisen> case*
<heat> bug report?
<Ameisen> there's basically _no_ way aside from doing a struct that has a member function that shift/ors to make this work
<Ameisen> it's not a bug per se - it's perfectly valid output
<Ameisen> just very sub-optimal
<heat> sounds like a bug to me
<nikolar> Pessimal
<Ameisen> if I were to report every case where MSVC generated suboptimal code, they'd be very rapidly overwhelmed.
<heat> haha is this a mjg moment
<heat> Ameisen, have you seen arm64 msvc division? :v
<Ameisen> I've not.
<heat> Ameisen, i like windows 11 and the centered
<heat> fuck
<bslsk05> ​godbolt.org: Compiler Explorer
<heat> there
<Ameisen> ... why
<heat> arm64 does not have a div by 0 exception
<heat> so probably a compat kludge?
<Ameisen> https://godbolt.org/z/Kd4nqKGTP compare GCC's output at least
<bslsk05> ​godbolt.org: Compiler Explorer
<heat> it even makes you jump over the trap in the likely case!
<Ameisen> using __assume doesn't help either :|
<Ameisen> if you were to just outright tell it that neither a nor b are 0
<heat> you may not like it but this is ideal codegen
<zid> https://preview.redd.it/49s67tz3n8451.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=350ce8d00ff1a2f8b7d91cbe05be9fd96a16c70d Just in case anybody hasn't seen this image in the past 6 months, I just stumbled across it again
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<Ameisen> I was able to get MSVC to do what I wanted... sometimes.
<bslsk05> ​godbolt.org: Compiler Explorer
<Ameisen> horrible things with `std::bit_cast`, or using a fancy struct.
<Ameisen> I don't like that it emits like 10 copies of the same array, though I'm guessing the linker would handle that.
<Ameisen> Though interestingly, one of them works even with optimization disabled.
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<gog> hi
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<gog> i'm having a better time with wayland than x
<gog> render offloading syncs correctly
<gog> couldn't get it working with x
<gog> always had tearing at about the top 10%
<gog> mostly with games
<bslsk05> ​i.imgur.com <no title>
<gog> oh no
<mcrod> hi
<mcrod> what is the osdev solution for a cold
<gog> i've been battling a cold and honestly i laid down and hoped i would die for a day
<gog> i'm fine now
<gog> just a cough
<heat> mcrod, __attribute__((hot))
<Ermine> gog: may I pet you
<heat> no
<Ermine> :'(
<gog> yes
<mcrod> for me, it’s “my nose is fine” and then 10 minutes later “i need every tissue on the planet”
* Ermine pets gog
* gog prr'
<gog> heat: you can pet me too you don't hav e to be jelly
* bnchs pets heat
<mcrod> i still hate writing shell scripts, but i’m getting used to it
<heat> then you're doing it wrong
<gog> heat: that's right you're in jelly school getting a j.h.d
<heat> you're supposed to hate it
<heat> gog, i'm not in jelly skewl mkay
<heat> i'm at the playa haters' ball
<heat> i'm not jelly, i just hate, for sport
<mcrod> i should spin up a VM so I don’t nuke my actual pc…
<gog> nah it'll be fiiine
<gog> just don't use sudo
<gog> and do something like alias rm='rm -i' if you need to test anything potentially risky
<heat> don't use sudo, use doas
<heat> this post was sponsored by OpenBSD gang
<gog> was it sponsored
<gog> did somebody pay you heat
<gog> are you an openbsd influencer now
<heat> no no no never
<heat> buy $OPNBSD its really good i promise
<Ermine> Alpine sponsored that too
<gog> open nft
<bslsk05> ​'Simulated floppy disk with real magnetic data transfer' by Janus Cycle (00:19:26)
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<zid> Can I have a professor gog nft
* Ermine mints one
<gog> what does a professor gog look like
<zid> That's the best part, it's an NFT, so I just get a link
<zid> and I can use whatever image I want
<gog> are you trying to say you found my onlyfans
<zid> what do you mean, found, you barely take a breath between repeatedly sending me the url
<zid> "I'm a bad progra" "btw I started an onlyfans" "mmer"
<zid> --gog
<gog> i've said the enclosing phraise to you but never the inner
<gog> fake news
<zid> Yea I suppose it would be fake news if you said you *started* an onlyfans, good catch
<zid> It'd be more along the lines of "my highly successful long-running onlyfans"
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<gog> i wish
<gog> easier to make money programming rn
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<bnchs> gog: you don't make money
<bnchs> you EARN money
<bnchs> making money would be like printing
<gog> no, i'm paid money
<gog> the value i produce is more than i'm paid
<bnchs> money does not appear out of thin air
<bnchs> it is EARNED
<gog> if i earned the money, i'd be getting more
<bnchs> oh
<gog> but there's a middle man and a bunch of old guys who take some of what i producec
<bnchs> awwww
<gog> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ that's capitalism
<bnchs> true
<bnchs> the value i produce is nothing
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