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<discocaml>
<contificate> I'd pay it no mind, @raiinyzen. More OCaml here please, less casting aspersions about the abilities of people you do not know.
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<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> It is true, I have erred, I apologise
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<discocaml>
<andrew.0115> I’ll help 20 people on how to earn $70k or more within 72hours from the Crypto Market, but you’ll pay me a 10% of your profit when you receive it. Ask me how!!
<discocaml>
<andrew.0115> If interested, send me a direct message. For more information…contact via.. TG or WhatsApp
<discocaml>
<jalsol> holy I guess I am one of the few people who knew both Jane Street and OCaml for a while without realizing Jane Street's involvement in OCaml
<discocaml>
<jalsol> Jane Street has been sponsoring a lot of programming competitions, and I knew OCaml because I didn't like Haskell
<discocaml>
<jalsol> I had to see who made Core and mind was blown when connection was made
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<discocaml>
<contificate> I only became familiar with Jane Street after getting into OCaml (several months later)
<discocaml>
<contificate> As it happens, I got into OCaml because, by the end of a Haskell course at university, I thought "damn, most of this is great, but this other stuff is just tedium"
<discocaml>
<contificate> so I asked lecturer "how come all of your github repos are in OCaml"
<discocaml>
<contificate> but, yeah, there's no doubt Jane Street have done (and continue to do) lots for the language
<discocaml>
<contificate> but there's some light controversy about how RWO uses a lot of Jane Street libraries - but I guess it serves a kind of introduction for people JS hire
<discocaml>
<contificate> and personally I don't care for people solely motivated by working for JS
<discocaml>
<contificate> I much prefer the crowd that's coming from "I'm interested in writing compilers but value my time"
<olle>
I recently moved away from FP for language design.
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<olle>
Not convinced it's better than OOP anymore.
<olle>
At least for smaller projects.
<discocaml>
<contificate> it also depends on which part(s) of compilers you're focusing on
<discocaml>
<contificate> I think OOP is suffering in its tendency to use a lot of visitors instead of structural recursion
<olle>
Perhaps, I never got to that size :)
<discocaml>
<contificate> and effectively you find that much of LLVM's representations for instructions are effectively discriminated sums implemented as a class hierarchy
<discocaml>
<contificate> don't get me wrong, I used Java for compilers for a long time - I don't mind it, it's a lot better now than it was years ago
<discocaml>
<contificate> anyway, for compiler beginners, OCaml is perfection
<discocaml>
<contificate> what you find in the amateur compiler writing space is that people get severely gatekept by their language of choice
<discocaml>
<contificate> flailing around for hours in C with tagged unions? the burden of implementation diminishes any learnings there
<discocaml>
<contificate> I can only do that stuff in C because I learned the mental model from OCaml
<olle>
Who would use C as their first choice for learning compilers...?
<discocaml>
<contificate> lots of people on r/ProgrammingLanguages
<olle>
In this age.
<olle>
Pah.
<discocaml>
<contificate> there used to be a story on Twitter about a company that advertised OCaml positions but then got the new hires to write C
<olle>
lol
<discocaml>
<contificate> it sounds silly to us, but seriously..
<olle>
Well C is nice if you wanna run your language absolutely everywhere
<discocaml>
<contificate> the amount of people who write C all day every day for their career
<discocaml>
<contificate> but would be stumped at things like structural recursion of ADTs encoded as tagged unions
<discocaml>
<contificate> is remarkable
<discocaml>
<contificate> there's domains of programming where you simply don't work with much inductive data at all
<discocaml>
<contificate> you put stuff into hash maps, iterate over them, and acquire and release mutexes
<discocaml>
<contificate> this isn't me having a dig, it's just noting that anyone who has any kind of elitism complex around C etc. needs to understand that they're often limiting themselves by avoiding becoming eclectic
<discocaml>
<contificate> as a teenager, I was very into C++ - to the point of reading standards and language lawyering for hours each day online, but it was basically mental illness, frankly
<discocaml>
<contificate> I wasn't getting better at programming at all, I was learning lore about C++ garbage
<discocaml>
<contificate> now I consider it an esolang and my life is much simpler
<olle>
It's OK, I tend to monologize too ^^
<olle>
Is that a word?
<discocaml>
<contificate> yes
<discocaml>
<contificate> anyways, apologies for the walls of text for those using IRC
<olle>
That's fine, code listing and editing is the real enemy...
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<discocaml>
<contificate> my monologues forever archived in whitequark's logs
<olle>
Blast from the past
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<discocaml>
<alyxshang> I think honestly anyone who says "I'm so great I wanna work at X has skill issues". It shows inexperience in our industry and the ignorance about the fact that interest in the field and pushing the field forward is what gets you places, that + a ton of experience in a diverse set of technologies. I'm not being mean, just realistic.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Meanwhile me: OCaml is a good entry into FP and FP is the highest art form of programming.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> I think honestly anyone who says "I'm so great I wanna work at X" has skill issues. It shows inexperience in our industry and the ignorance about the fact that interest in the field and pushing the field forward is what gets you places, that + a ton of experience in a diverse set of technologies. I'm not being mean, just realistic.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> I think honestly anyone who says "I'm so great I wanna work at X" has skill issues. It shows inexperience in our industry and the ignorance about the fact that interest in the field and pushing the field forward is what gets you places, that + a ton of experience in a diverse set of technologies. I'm not being mean, just realistic. And you honestly only have a chance of getting better, if you are modest about your set of skills.
<discocaml>
<contificate> The issue with the first part is the "I'm so great", as being humble is a virtue. However, the "I wanna work at X" is alright to me, there's lots of kids who are currently motivated to get into programming to work at some well known game company, for example. The difference is when it's OCaml and the reasons are kind of murky: do people know what Jane Street do, or do they just know it's wildly successful at it?
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> But that's my point, learning anything to get into some company or get stupidly rich is silly for the simple reason that that goal is not going to motivate you to explore by yourself and be curious about your field. That curious attitude is what will drive you to come up with new things, hold yourself to high standards, and then a pleasant side effect will be tons of experience, a lot of knowledge, and being very skilled in whatever you expl
<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> OCaml is more enjoyable than other FP langs
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> I had a look at Haskell. I ran away screaming.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> "How does this work? How far can I go?"
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Every single skilled dev has or has had this attitude at some point.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> That's my point about saying "I'm so great.". If you're so great, you have nothing more to learn. You stagnate and eventually atrophy.
<discocaml>
<contificate> Dunning Kruger is always problematic, but many get over it.
<discocaml>
<contificate> On the other side, a mass trepidation affects our industry.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> It is what it is.
<discocaml>
<contificate> Maybe you can relate: you ever heard someone go on and on about whether they should learn X
<discocaml>
<contificate> to such a point that, actually, they've spent more time debating it
<discocaml>
<contificate> than they'd spend just getting to grips with the thing
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Trepidation about?
<discocaml>
<contificate> about learning new things
<discocaml>
<contificate> people be like "hehe I'll learn Haskell one day!!"
<discocaml>
<contificate> unaware that, for many, getting a good grasp can be a weekend project
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> That's just weakness of character. If you want it so badly, you woulda quit talking and just got on with it.
<discocaml>
<contificate> yes, I have this problem where I'm less likely to complete things if I share my unfinished products
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Same omg
<discocaml>
<contificate> gotta work in private, to some extent
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> I'm trying really hard to shut the hell up about something I'm working on and then only yap about it when it's done.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Because it gives one unneccessary pressure.
<discocaml>
<contificate> there's a quote I like, "discipline is for those who lack obsession"
<discocaml>
<contificate> life takes a lot out of you, though
<discocaml>
<contificate> hard to manage obsessions around work, life, relationships
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Because then you think other people expect something of you when in reality nobody cares.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> No discipline is what makes talent and obsession into something truly great.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Being a creative person isn't easy, agreed.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> But then you have to evaluate how much different things mean to you and be wise about them.
<discocaml>
<contificate> sometimes I've shelved things because I run into difficulties, like, say, reading some paper
<discocaml>
<contificate> then return months later and manage it in one take
<discocaml>
<contificate> and I think.. what the heck
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Maybe you were eepy.
<discocaml>
<contificate> I'm always eepy, on that 5 hours a night grind
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Shelve it and then come back to it later.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Maybe your mind was restless when you shelved it?
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Same, girl omg
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> But you cope and try to make the best of it
<discocaml>
<contificate> what really helps here is to realise that offhand sentences by random academics were probably done without thought at 2am
<discocaml>
<contificate> so I try to do a kind of parser recovery
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<discocaml>
<alyxshang> And that it's not that earth-shattering in the grand scheme of things. Regaining some perspective, helps too.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Anecdote: I was stuck on a 🦀 problem the other day, went on an Abyss speedrun, came back to the problem and solved it instantly. Because I just put the problem aside. I mean also taking a walk or doing some chores can help. Because you're "emptying your brain cache".
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> It do be like that, though.
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Anyway, imma poof. ❤️
<discocaml>
<alyxshang> Interesting convo. ❤️
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<discocaml>
<yawaramin> i don't care who wants to learn OCaml for what reason, just that they do want to. because there are many people out there who won't even look at it. just, realistically speaking, i hope they realize that chances are high that they will never work at Jane Street. just, statistically speaking. as long as expectations are grounded in reality, it's fine
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<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> I just wish for all of us to remain humble and loving
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> my hope is that people learn it and then write stuff in it at their existing jobs, and then over time we see more and more OCaml codebases out there
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<discocaml>
<contificate> the neat part of that is you can basically claim to have written "X professionally" if you shoehorn it into something at work
<discocaml>
<contificate> I used GNU Guile and Scryer Prolog for something at work, so now I can claim to have written em both in a professional capacity 😎
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<discocaml>
<cod1r> 😎
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<discocaml>
<barconstruction> Speaking of prolog anybody try the Mercury language? Looks fascinating and I am hype to experiment with it.
<discocaml>
<contificate> one of the contributors is a moderator in r/PL Discord and used to talk about it, haven't personally used it myself
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<discocaml>
<barconstruction> I need to set up a VM or get an older machine because it's not packaged for the Ubuntu version I'm using.