<dh`>
I was wondering if you meant my complaint, because I wouldn't expect that to be something that's either easily fixed or likely to interest upstream
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> i did mean your complaint
<discocaml>
<leviroth> I can't reproduce this.
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<discocaml>
<purringhutao> @drupyog
<discocaml>
<purringhutao>
<discocaml>
<purringhutao> I'm actively working on a new release, see discussion at https://github.com/ocaml/opam-source-archives/pull/42. However, I'm a little confused by some aspects of how OCaml interacts with foreign code, which is why I've been asking some questions in this server for the past few days. (However, I feel that nobody here has given me good answers to my questions.)
<discocaml>
<Alan> I have this mostly working on Linux, but I'm not sure about some stuff, and Homebrew doesn't seem to work
<discocaml>
<Alan> I'm planning to split two versions, LLVM.18-static and LLVM.18-shared.
<discocaml>
<Alan> If you know anyone who is an expert on how OCaml interacts with foreign libraries, who has the time for me to ask some questions, I would appreciate it
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<dh`>
here's how to reproduce my complaint:
<dh`>
module A = struct type t = int end
<dh`>
module B = struct type t = A.t end
<dh`>
module C = struct open A open B let x: t = 3 end
<dh`>
and use ocamlopt -W +44 test.ml
<dh`>
er, -w not -W
<discocaml>
<Alan> Hmm, adding a -L flag completely changed how the stublibs was compiled...
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> dh`: seems worth filing an issue to me. if it's closed as not doable at least it should be documented
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<discocaml>
<Kali> please avoid pasting code blocks in #general , the irc bridge has to send each newline separately
<discocaml>
<Alan> Sorry
<discocaml>
<Alan> I wonder if I should move this out of general?
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> seems like #advanced-help would be better
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<dh`>
yawaramin: ok, I'll look into it tomorrow
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<discocaml>
<drupyog> @purringhutao I'm not very good at this part of OCaml, sorry
<discocaml>
<drupyog> I can do more tests on linux, if need be
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<discocaml>
<ilias1911> Hey there! I've been trying to add float16 support for ctypes here https://github.com/yallop/ocaml-ctypes/pull/788 but I'm not too satisfied with my solution, which involves generating some OCaml file at build time depending on the OCaml version. The key issue is with a match on a value describing the bigarray kinds: the `Float16` tag is only present post 5.2. I'm wondering if anyone here would have good suggestions on how to approach the pr
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<discocaml>
<amancuso7868> Dear community, would it be alright to post the link to a website I launched yesterday? There are no adverts, no tracking, nothing of the kind. Just highly specialized jobs: so far OCaml, Haskell, Ada. It's a personal project, not-for-profit.
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<discocaml>
<lukstafi> It's alright by me to share it in `#general` where it will have a bigger reach; I presume it should be alright by everyone to share it in `#share`, which is meant to share such links regardless of whether the poster and the author are same/related; it might even be alright for `#working-on` if you'd like to get feedback.
<discocaml>
<wayneyam> So my understanding now is that, a monad of type `'a t` is something that *should* give me a `'a` to work with, unlike something with type `'a` which is definitely a `'a`, and because of the possibility of uncertainty we can now incorporate side effects into the program
<discocaml>
<froyo> damn, latest job posting is from last year
<discocaml>
<froyo> `'a t -> 'a` is not a monadic operation. what you can do is supply a function to either `bind` or `map`
<discocaml>
<wayneyam> at least it fits into Option/Either (it could fail) and IO monad and your monad
<discocaml>
<froyo> once you've put `'a` in the `t`, those should be the only way to interact with it within this interface.
<discocaml>
<wayneyam> I know, because you can't make something certain out of something uncertain
<discocaml>
<wayneyam> at least that's my own way of seeing it
<discocaml>
<froyo> you could of course do more than encode uncertainty in a general interface like this (look at the reader monad for a fun example (also a bit unintuitive to implement in ocaml)), but i think it's fair to approach it from that pov.
<discocaml>
<froyo> you could say once a value is wrapped in this added context (being optional, nondeterministic, carrying more info around, ...), it's not possible to bring it back to the pure world.
<discocaml>
<froyo> if you're familiar with js and such, this is their "coloring" problem
<discocaml>
<wayneyam> yeah it seems like the main thing with monads are they add *something* that can't be removed?
<discocaml>
<wayneyam> bind is the way you uncover what's inside but the context has to be re-added
<discocaml>
<froyo> "add context" is one third of what makes a monad a monad, the other two are "define the operations" (so bind & unit) and "ensure their laws hold" (left & right identity, and associativity)
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<discocaml>
<amancuso7868> I can certainly draw inspiration from it!
<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> One intuitive way to see monads is as encoding effects as well
<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> Then `'a m` is a value of type `'a` with effect `m`
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<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> And the unescapability represents the fact you can't arbitrarily remove an effect
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<discocaml>
<froyo> emphasising Monad isn't synonym of IO (what's commonly thought of when you say "effects") is worth it though
<discocaml>
<froyo> it's one way to understand a utility of monads, and Octachron's example uses it to go from concrete example to an abstract understanding. I get that. It's just one example
<discocaml>
<froyo> i get you're talking about the general notion of "effect" but if your statement is understood the same way as, say, "mappable encodes lists", you kinda do the understanding a disservice
<dh`>
M t means "a sequence of operations that produces an t"
<dh`>
if the operations involve uncertainty, then there's uncertainty in the result, like with the probability monad or with the interpretation of option/Maybe as a monad
<dh`>
monads are also not a great model for effects, because while some effects require sequencing for coherence (e.g. updates to a single mutable variable), others don't (e.g. nontermination)
<dh`>
and the general case of updates to mutable variables is a partial order, not a total order
<dh`>
(and while you can stuff threads into IO and haskell does, it's not natural and ultimately boils down to telling lies about the sequential behavior of the IO world state)
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<discocaml>
<Alan> Monads basically give a "denotational semantics" of a computation that produces a value. When monads are exposed in the programming language, they're basically computations represented as values.
<discocaml>
<Alan>
<discocaml>
<Alan> You can think of a monad as the *computational interpretation* of some parametric data type. `'a option` means a computation that can produce `'a` or fail. `'r -> 'a` means a computation that reads from an environment `'r` and produces `'a`. `'s -> 's * 'a` means a stateful computation that produces `'a`.
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<discocaml>
<Alan> You can basically give monadic data types a dual interpretation: a value interpretation or a computational interpretation.
<discocaml>
<Alan>
<discocaml>
<Alan> Option: Value interpretation is a possibly absent value, computational interpretation is a failing computation.
<discocaml>
<Alan> Either/Result: Value interpretation is a sum type, computational interpretation is an exception-throwing computation.
<discocaml>
<Alan> Function: Value interpretation is a function, computational interpretation is a computation that "read" from some external environment.
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<dh`>
the computation model is often the best way to think about it
<dh`>
but it has the same caveat as effects: monads are sequential, computations aren't necessarily
<dh`>
(exhibit A: "pure" haskell code that can throw exceptions)
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