<wael_>
ehawkvu: you and testuser are total opposites ngl
<sad_plan>
wym?
<niceguy5000[m]>
is that a flatpaki?
<ehawkvu>
niceguy5000[m]: nope, fully native
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<wael_>
what's your package count now ehawkvu ?
<sad_plan>
whats yours wael_ ? :P
<wael_>
I'm not at home
<sad_plan>
I see
<testuser[m]>
wael: what
vbt is now known as varsh
<sad_plan>
does mk have any benefits over regular make? I couldve sworn Ive read its faster, but I cant seem to find the source for it for some reason
<sad_plan>
im refering to plan9's mk, if it wasnt clear
<testuser[m]>
bruh there's not even a speed bottleneck in build system itself
<testuser[m]>
Unless youre measuring nanoseconds
<travankor>
i don't think its faster compared to modern make implementations
<sad_plan>
well, nanoseconds would be neglectable. I was looking for more noticable difference :p
<sad_plan>
I was messing with creating mkfiles for some softwares, but I dont thing I would bother much with it, if it doesnt make any differences at all
<testuser[m]>
make's work is literally to spawn a bunch of subprocesses
<testuser[m]>
parallely
<testuser[m]>
i don't get what you even mean by speed
<sad_plan>
Im not making the claim about speed, cat-v is. I was merly asking about it. but as you said, it just spawns subprocesses, so unless mk magically makes the compiler faster, it wouldnt really make any difference
<sad_plan>
so the speed difference would if any, be neglectable
<testuser[m]>
Ye
<illiliti>
mk isn't worth it
<illiliti>
it has minor advantages over make
<illiliti>
most of them are for quality of life
<illiliti>
not a big deal, not worth it
<illiliti>
portability is more important
<sad_plan>
sure, portability is important. I was mostly interested in looking into mk, for fun, and for the learning experience. isnt mk ported to bsd's aswell? I know rc is anyway iirc
<sad_plan>
netbsd has rc atleast
<wael_>
rc is so obscure I don't know why I should learn it
<wael_>
unless I'm making a distribution
<sad_plan>
its lighter anyway, (and faster?) I havent checked it for speed, as I dont know rc
<wael_>
I find rc's syntax very weird but quite elegant
<sad_plan>
Oasis uses rc for most of its stuff. mcf claims its more sane anyway. I dunno
<sad_plan>
sure
<niceguy5000[m]>
is init not good enough?
<sad_plan>
what?
<wael_>
what?
<niceguy5000[m]>
What's wrong with .service?
<sad_plan>
thats not what we're talking about. rc is plan9's shell
<sad_plan>
isnt .service sysd? in that case, I dont want it
<wael_>
niceguy5000[m]: yeah idk what you meant by this
<wael_>
oasislinux's init is written in rc in only 5 or 7 lines
<sad_plan>
correct
<sad_plan>
Oasis' whole /etc is supposed to be super simple
<wael_>
I don't know why mcf chose it to be so small unlike baseinit
<wael_>
like seeding swap etc etc
<wael_>
maybe the service manager does it or some other thing
<sad_plan>
nope, init script only does the init stuff. service manager handles gettys i.e.
<sad_plan>
I suspect that mcf just stated that its just not needed.
<wael_>
I need to look into oasislinux the design of the system is so intricate
<wael_>
maybe hell I'll break the rules and make a glibc fork with the worst software choices lol
<sad_plan>
I have my own init script, based off of mcf's, and it works just fine
<wael_>
wael_: no nvm that's a dumb idea, the build system of oasislinux doesn't make it possible
<wael_>
sad_plan: can I see?
<sad_plan>
glibc also doesnt work well with static linking
<wael_>
I mean sure its reasonable but runit is a bit better than this
<wael_>
svc itself is pretty interesting
<wael_>
it works if all you want is management and launched services
<wael_>
but at that point I'd like to use ::respawn:/bin/mdevd in inittab
<sad_plan>
runit has smaller scripts, I know, but its some of the shortcommings of svc. Im not sure how else to do it
<sad_plan>
the mdevd script just uses the stuff from the runit service script we have, basically
<sad_plan>
then svc might not be for you. all I wanted was to start/stop services. if a service suddenly stops, which is unlikely, I can start it myself
<wael_>
but why not just use a respawn script and use it for the services?
<sad_plan>
that would also require svc to monitor if the scripts are infact running aswell
<wael_>
pgrep(1)
<sad_plan>
s/ubase doesnt have pgrep. pgrep isnt posix is it?
<sad_plan>
still, youd have to have it running in a loop, constantly checking wether something is running, which I find unneeded
<sad_plan>
I do plan on making some more changes to it, but mostly just polishing it
<wael_>
plz lmk this stuff is cool
<wael_>
although I use more bloated garbage
<sad_plan>
sure. theres nothing stopping you from using it now though. just make sure runit dosnt start the service you want svc to run, and start svc's services yourself, or via a init hook
<wael_>
I still want to try toybox, but I'm gonna miss the completeness of busybox, coming with an init and everything
<sad_plan>
if one can rid toybox of its bashism, Im interested, even though gnu is not my goal here.
<sad_plan>
I like it separated. I find it easier to manage that way
<wael_>
I forgot its using bash
<wael_>
fuck
<wael_>
I will still need bash in my system anyway, its required for steam
<sad_plan>
then using bash is not really an issue for you. I dont need bash, nor do I use it, hence my gripe with it needing bash :p
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<sad_plan>
wael_: I pushed some changes to svc, if youre interested :p
<sad_plan>
hm, it seems something broke. oops
<sad_plan>
ah. stupid
<cem>
Eh, I never understood the point of svc. It's a poorly written shell script that does nothing in terms of service management
<sad_plan>
it starts and stops them. but nothing else
<sad_plan>
which is by design. atleast for me anyway
<sad_plan>
I didnt need logging, or anything else, I just wanted to start/stop servies
<sad_plan>
I also find it amusing to work with. good practice for writing shellscrips
<cem>
I don't care much about logging but I think a service manager should have state awareness
<sad_plan>
perhaps, but I dont really require it. Im capable of running top to check if its running, or ps, pgrep or w/e command one see fit to figure out if something is running or not
<wael_>
<sad_plan> "then using bash is not really an..." <- didnt i make a posix sh patch for toybox though?
<wael_>
i remember i made one, but unsure if i gave up or made it work
<sad_plan>
wael_: you started it, but ran into some issues
<sad_plan>
I belive you gave up, because you couldnt find a solution to some issue
<wael_>
ok thx
<wael_>
i find toybox's implementations of programs so much better than busybox's or {s,u}base
<sad_plan>
sure. but its way less finished than busybox. I wanted to like toybox, but alot of stuff didnt really work. though, thats the same case for s/ubase aswell :')
<sad_plan>
so I dont really think it would matter all that much tbh :p
<cem>
Didn't E5ten have a patch?
<sad_plan>
he did, but its way outdated now it seems
<wael_>
yeah but it doesnt work
<sad_plan>
dev seems to change alot of what e5sten did, so the patch broke long time ago
<wael_>
i'm pretty sure im gonna use toybox, and then do alternatives for stuff like tar and whatever, and then have so many things for service and respawn and other things, and then go back to busybox like before
<cem>
I did maintain the patch locally for a while but it's been a while
<sad_plan>
feel free to getting it to work on latest upstream release cem :p not sure how many would benefit from it though. except wael_ here and maybe me
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<wael_>
nah bro i dont wanna go through pain
<wael_>
im gonna have bash on my system either way
<sad_plan>
I left my laptop, so have to check it when Im back
<wael_>
i wonder if theres a coreutils thats as good as toybox
<Ellowee[m]>
This feels like a slow transition to bsd
<midfavila>
that reminds me
<midfavila>
the next revision of apport is just about ready
<midfavila>
need to test it on bsd tho
<wael_>
whats an apport again i forgot
<midfavila>
my TCP/IP library and associated client
<midfavila>
little brother of curl i guess
<midfavila>
still very suboptimal, but the design is much cleaner now
<midfavila>
all of the actual protocol busywork has been removed from the core of the library and into separate shared objects that are lazy-linked if and when needed
<midfavila>
'cause of that and a few modifications i made to dial() i've eliminated >100 lines of code whilst making the program much easier to understand overall
<midfavila>
down by 142 lines and counting
<wael_>
so cool
<midfavila>
yes, give me more praise
<midfavila>
i thirst for it
<midfavila>
i am the coolest there ever was, ever has been and ever will be
<midfavila>
facts
<wael_>
mcf is cooler than you
<midfavila>
can i get a snopes fact-check for that
<wael_>
whats a snopes
<sad_plan>
Isnt snopes a magasine or something?
<midfavila>
snopes has a fact-checker that's really stupid
<midfavila>
it's kind of a meme to demand a snopes fact-check for things, at least in the circles i frequent
<sad_plan>
Lol, right. I remember now
<midfavila>
huighrnchgioe why is life so expensive
<midfavila>
need to start tracking my groceries using a spreadsheet or some shit jfc
<sad_plan>
Move into a van and you should have more money left midfavila
<midfavila>
no license
<midfavila>
and car plus parking plus gas plus etc would add up fast anyway
<midfavila>
with the new job things will get a lot easier
<midfavila>
going from 173 take-home every month to 983
<midfavila>
just short-term expenses that i'm stressing out over
<midfavila>
man
<midfavila>
i'm like
<midfavila>
a real adult now
<midfavila>
wild
<midfavila>
the problem is that inflation has outstripped minimum wage by like
<midfavila>
100%+
<sad_plan>
Would it be more expencive than an appartment though? The current one
<midfavila>
if it was less it wouldn't be by much
<midfavila>
monthly rent for a parking spot is 250-300$
<midfavila>
which is hilarious
<midfavila>
but also depressing
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<wael_>
hi midfavils
<midfavila>
then add on insurance, which'd be pricey because i'd be newly licensed and probably driving an older model
<wael_>
Midgdivl
<wael_>
Midfsvi
<sad_plan>
Thats expensive..
<wael_>
Midfavila
<midfavila>
then gas, which is like 1.40-1.50 per litre and 2+ for diesel
<midfavila>
then parts and repairs
<midfavila>
then all the shit i'd have to buy to make /fastman/ life actually viable
<midfavila>
and it pretty quickly becomes evident that the only benefit is being able to carry my home on my back, metaphorically speaking
<sad_plan>
But mid, do you really have to rent a parkingspot though?
<midfavila>
which isn't even that big of an advantage considering that if i had to i could pack and be out of this city in less than an hour
<midfavila>
yes
<midfavila>
my city is going through a major housing crisis
<midfavila>
so lots of people already live out of vehicles
<midfavila>
and because it's a uni town, and a lot of new immigrants get dumped here, and there's a lot of westerners moving here to take advantage of comparatively low costs of living,
<midfavila>
and you very quickly start to see an explosion in rent and uh, everything else
<midfavila>
also, there's no jobs :D
<sad_plan>
I see
<midfavila>
yeah it's great
<midfavila>
living in poverty is a heck of a time
<midfavila>
oh
<sad_plan>
Be homeless. Sell all your shit and live out of a backpack
<midfavila>
if i lived in a vehicle i'd need to get rid of my workstation too
<midfavila>
sad_plan illegal! :D
<midfavila>
also it's like -20 and dropping right now
<sad_plan>
Not neccessarly. Depending on how much other studf you wanna bring
<midfavila>
no, it would be necessary
<sad_plan>
Lol, thats cold
<midfavila>
my PC on its own is the size of a small child
<midfavila>
if i invested in SDF more it'd be viable but, meh
<midfavila>
anyway, i'm not terribly worried about things long-term
<sad_plan>
Why is it so massive?
<sad_plan>
Good to hear
<midfavila>
because the motherboard is SSI-EEB
<midfavila>
the largest standardized IBM PC motherboard form factor
<midfavila>
12x13 iirc
<midfavila>
and no eATX isn't an actual standard
<sad_plan>
I see
<midfavila>
i also have like eight disks in the thing
<midfavila>
and a bunch of expansion cards
<midfavila>
anyway yeah, long term things will be fine
<sad_plan>
Build mini itx instead. A cute <10l case
<midfavila>
uh, no
<sad_plan>
Lol
<midfavila>
i'm not paying a premium on miniaturized components that do a bunch of shit i don't want and don't do a bunch of shit that i do want
<midfavila>
i don't want wifi on a desktop, i want RS-232
<midfavila>
i don't want integrated audio, i want additional expansion card slots
<midfavila>
etc
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<midfavila>
pidgin died
<midfavila>
again
<midfavila>
le sigh. i need to work on XIrc more
<midfavila>
anyway if I was going to downsize my setup i'd just go back to doing what i was doing before
<midfavila>
i.e slap a SIM in my laptop and use it as a thin client to connect to SDF
<midfavila>
then i'd just send metaARPA dues in the mail and call it a day
<midfavila>
that gets me like 8TB of personal remote storage, access to the metaArray compute system, and basically everything i need in terms of tools
<midfavila>
including stuff like firefox
<midfavila>
so, meh
<midfavila>
but point is, i don't wanna do that
<midfavila>
honestly if money wasn't so tight right now i'd be pretty content with my life
<midfavila>
need to work out more i guess but that's the only problem i have that isn't a result of money problems
<midfavila>
and once i'm done with probation at work i'll be getting a raise to like 15 an hour or something, which will be pretty awesome too
<wael_>
did you suddenly become an adult
<midfavila>
ostensibly i've been an adult for like three years now
<midfavila>
but not much has really changed so maybe the real adulthood was the friends we made along the way
<wael_>
what age is considered an adult
<midfavila>
18 culturally, 19 legally
<midfavila>
my 21st was last month
* midfavila
shrugs
<wael_>
oh fuck
<midfavila>
yeah turns out i'm ancient
<midfavila>
shocker
<wael_>
nooo I don't wanna be an adult nooo
<midfavila>
literally nothing changes
<midfavila>
unless you're an american in which case have fun with the draft lol
<midfavila>
lmao even
<midfavila>
or from a country with mandatory service
<wael_>
but I have to deal with money
<midfavila>
you already should be dealing with money if you're not literally twelve
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<aelspire>
Hi
<wael_>
Hi
<midfavila>
Hi
<aelspire>
I was sceptic about hare language
<aelspire>
but tried this, aaannnnnd…
<aelspire>
I like it more than zig or rust
<aelspire>
qbe is mindblowing
<midfavila>
qbe is v v cool
<wael_>
how's hare
<midfavila>
if i knew anything about compiler design i'd be working on it
<aelspire>
I decided to try to build qbe and rest of toolchain and was expecting something like hour of compilation of backend
<aelspire>
but hit enter…
<midfavila>
it has a risc-v backend right?
<midfavila>
oh yeah
<aelspire>
aaanddł
<midfavila>
it takes like a second
<aelspire>
its done
<aelspire>
holly fuck
<aelspire>
I'm in love
<midfavila>
indeed
<midfavila>
only problem preventing me from using it instead of tcc is the reliance on the gnu devutils
<midfavila>
binutils
<midfavila>
whatever
<midfavila>
"reliance"
<aelspire>
devutils?
<midfavila>
meant binutils
<midfavila>
i'm stupid
<aelspire>
aaah
<aelspire>
objdump is too convenient, indeed
<midfavila>
i mean, my concern is whether i can build my entire rootfs using it
<midfavila>
afaik it doesn't have an assembler
<midfavila>
at the very least you gotta have an assembler man
<midfavila>
then again, i also haven't looked at it too in-depth
<aelspire>
somet linux which name starts with something like o uses cproc as main and only compiler
<midfavila>
so i very well could be wrong
<midfavila>
oasis
<midfavila>
it uses the binutils
<aelspire>
but, yeah
<aelspire>
oh that one
<midfavila>
the binutils on their own are huge
<midfavila>
bigger than the entirety of tcc
<midfavila>
qbe+cproc is 20k, but then you dump binutils on top and that's like 400k plus
<midfavila>
whereas tcc is ~100k
<midfavila>
and yes, I am measuring quality by lines of code, because I'm concerned with whether the codebases i use are easily audited or not
<aelspire>
I've only heard about tcc, never used it
<midfavila>
to quash any complaints in advance
<midfavila>
tcc is great
<midfavila>
significantly faster than either clang or gcc
<midfavila>
it uses the same design as LLVM or ACK
<aelspire>
almost
<midfavila>
frontend to transpile high level languages to an IL, then optimizes that IL, then translates the IL into assembler and passes it on... or somesuch
<aelspire>
yes
<aelspire>
thats the strength
<midfavila>
indeed, it's a good design
<aelspire>
You don't have CPUxLANG matrix to implement
<midfavila>
but the thing that gets me about QBE is its explicit goal of being hobby-scale
<midfavila>
enough for one person to fully understand
<aelspire>
thats bad?
<midfavila>
no, it's a killer feature
<aelspire>
yup, I like it too
<midfavila>
it's less "like it" and more "mandatory for me to consider it in my distro"
<midfavila>
if i had the knowledge i'd be writing my own media codecs and shit
<aelspire>
I've considered hare, zig and rust as my next hobby-main (in my job I'll be tied do C++ forever…)
<aelspire>
so I wanted something refreshing for hobby projects
<midfavila>
once i have more experience i would love to write a lisp for qbe
<aelspire>
and diclaimer: I'm not the biggest fan of C but it is not bad lang IMHO
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<midfavila>
C is a fine language in its original domain
<midfavila>
writing OSes and small utility programs
<aelspire>
I dislike some of pitfalls
<midfavila>
i don't know enough about C's quirks to comment much
<aelspire>
eg. when you have function which initializes something that needs to be deinitialized, allocates few things etc. with few places that it could fail
<aelspire>
so you want to run few frees and fews deinit but function can return in multiple places
<aelspire>
you need to use or nested ifs which makes code unreadable or goto which is not the best…
<aelspire>
or the fact that this lang has spec and everybody claims it is killer feature of it
<aelspire>
so
<aelspire>
go take your tcc and compile linux kernel
<aelspire>
it has spec but it is too vague sometimes and too limited so every compiler has incompatible extensions
<aelspire>
or little differences that make lot of code compiler specific
<midfavila>
yeah I'm aware
<aelspire>
same thing with shells
<midfavila>
should just use rc gosh
<aelspire>
but generally speaking C is not bad, it just could be better IMHO
<aelspire>
hare looks promising and I've checked some simple hello-word level examples
<aelspire>
but I'll test it some more before commiting to it
<aelspire>
I'm lazy - how updating packages with git version works in kiss?
<aelspire>
it will try to fetch new version ok kiss u/U or I need revbump?
<wael_>
rebuild
<aelspire>
ok, thanks
<wael_>
my family have been laughing for half an hour about 'kiss orphans' and the kiss package manager
<aelspire>
wait for them to discover killing childrens in linux
<aelspire>
generally speaking there are some cases when you might *want* sandbox offered by flatpak
<wael_>
like for example zoom or spotify
<aelspire>
yup
<wael_>
but i can do that with simple bwrap scripts tho
<aelspire>
yes, thats what I'm doing as my own crappy pipenv
<aelspire>
id poors man Debian container for project that need to work on ancient Debian
<aelspire>
I treat flatpak as binary repo for kiss and don't try to be idealist
<aelspire>
running things native is cool but I'm planning to find alternative for some of them or need to use them but don't have time to properly package them
<aelspire>
and if I gonna find alternatives packaging them now is waste of time
<niceguy5000[m]>
flatpak is great for proprietary software garbage.
<niceguy5000[m]>
Have you heard of Richard Stallman? He's the guy that invent software freedom.
<niceguy5000[m]>
proprietary causes harm to the environment.
<wael_>
ehawkvu: what are your thoughts on preferring native over flatpak? why did you choose to do everything natively within kiss and what are the advantages? as compared to one command in flatpak install that can get blender
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<midfavila>
i'm perhaps ignorant to the situation at large but would flatpak/snap/appimage not be redundant in the face of static linking?
<niceguy5000[m]>
Yeah static linking is better.
<niceguy5000[m]>
but not all software supports static linking.
<niceguy5000[m]>
it's what it is.
<midfavila>
okay but why
<midfavila>
i keep hearing that but there's never a reason for it
<niceguy5000[m]>
like games?
<midfavila>
like i know that the new revision of apport for example doesn't, because it uses a library call that explicitly depends on dynamic linking, but
<midfavila>
short of that, i really don't see why it would be a problem
<midfavila>
and yeah, games are a good example
<midfavila>
maybe glibc sucks for static linking, whatever. use musl
<midfavila>
or uclibc, or any other linux libc
<testuser[m]>
midfavila: anything that needs dlopen doesn't work with static
<testuser[m]>
but this is mostly for GUIs that need graphics drivers
<midfavila>
yeah ik about dlopen
<midfavila>
that's the syscall i've been fiddling with wrt: libapport
<midfavila>
or, routine, whatever
<midfavila>
but like, do modern GUI libraries really need that? you can statically link athena and motif and stuff
<phoebos>
well athena and motif don't do the drawing
<phoebos>
midfavila: why do you pay for sdf instead of a tilde?
<midfavila>
that's kinda what i figured 'cause modern toolkits are built atop other things than xlib
<midfavila>
but i'm not familiar enough with qt/gtk/whatever to really understand
<midfavila>
and because i already have an sdf account, and i like being part of sdf
<phoebos>
xorg-server presumably can't be static
<phoebos>
fair enough
<midfavila>
it's neutral and a fairly well-regarded community regardless of whatever circle you're in
<midfavila>
tilde, i've seen some people get harassed for being involved with that circle
<midfavila>
milquetoast reason on my part, but i don't need any extra shit because of the pubnix i use
<midfavila>
and i mean, maybe not xorg, but that's just one implementation of x
<midfavila>
if there were no drivers to load, i can't see why you can't have a static X server
<midfavila>
like, say, tinyx
<midfavila>
~~of course, the ideal would be to use mgr~~
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<phoebos>
mesa is really the problem
<midfavila>
so then yeah tinyx wouldn't be
<midfavila>
runs just fine without mesa and friends
<midfavila>
nice, winter finally decided to show up
<midfavila>
40cm with winds up to 40km/h over the next three or four days
<midfavila>
oh, and 20-40mm of rainfall on top of that. even better
<aelspire>
we had 10°C on average when the norm was 0°C
<niceguy5000[m]>
winter is the best weather.
<aelspire>
the winter lasted for 2 weeks here
<aelspire>
this is gigantic anomaly
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<aelspire>
usually temperatures on the new year can drop to -30°C here
<aelspire>
no we have 5°C or something like this
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<niceguy5000[m]>
You can recompile chromium for a space heater.