<AeroNotix>
hashfuncd0d: seems to work with fun-code-header fwiw
<AeroNotix>
all the code there^
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<hashfuncd0d>
AeroNotix: "proof presupposes truth, something that is false cannot be proven." interesting thought
<hashfuncd0d>
alright i'm gonna check it out in a bit
<AeroNotix>
sir, it was a joke
<hashfuncd0d>
lol i know, brought out a philosophical thought
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<kathe>
good morning everyone. :)
<kathe>
anyone here uses "stumpwm"?
<Guest74>
They have their own irc channel. Might get more response there.
<kathe>
Guest74: is it "stumpwm" on libera?
<kathe>
googled, but didn't find anything.
<Guest74>
i think they're still on freenode
<kathe>
okay. thanks.
<Guest74>
np
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<kathe>
it's strange that the commonlisp-clx is still copyrighted by texas instruments.
<moon-child>
why? Copyright takes quite a long time to expire in most jurisdictions
<kathe>
most of the time i've seen 'oss' people re-write free versions of copyrighted software.
<Guest74>
The parts they wrote is copyright by them. There's more than one copyright.
<Guest74>
It's MIT, I'm not sure how much more 'free' you want it.
<Guest74>
my parts are copyright me.
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<Guest74>
also, I think you can just say clx since the cl stands for common lisp :)
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<kathe>
Guest74: try googling for just "clx". :p
<kathe>
even wikipedia fails. ;)
<Guest74>
i'd suggest using cliki instead of google.
<kathe>
okay. thanks.
<Guest74>
cl is a pretty small community with lots of old packages, so I don't see search engines giving it much love.
<kathe>
yes. agree with that.
<kathe>
have you seen beach's second-climacs?
<kathe>
he's done an impressive job.
<kathe>
though, it's not all that ready for primetime. might need dog-fooding.
<kathe>
i think it's quite an amazing effort.
<Guest74>
I haven't checked it out as he keeps saying it's not finished.
<Guest74>
That and too busy writing stuff. :)
<kathe>
:)
<kathe>
yes. it's "far" from being anywhere near being fully ready.
<Guest74>
so it's just like my software!
<Guest74>
:)
<kathe>
:)
<kathe>
can i get the 'url' for your repository?
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<kathe>
hmnn, i just noticed that i'm around 8 years away from being a productive common-lisp developer.
<kathe>
the realisation though scary initially has strengthened my resolve to work through the whole portion thoroughly.
<kathe>
this time i'll be a better developer than the last time.
<Guest74>
most of my unfinished stuff isn't published as it's still in flux. lots more than one repository as well. Desktop software isn't small.
<kathe>
Guest74: you
<kathe>
working on desktop software written in common-lisp?
<Guest74>
yeah, I kind of like to have control over everything.
<kathe>
what's the license going to be?
<kathe>
yeah, and i like the you're a control freak. even i was the last time i developed software.
<Guest74>
all my stuff is lgpl. I'd like to encourage growth.
<kathe>
mostly a one-man army.
<kathe>
any reason why 'lgpl' and not 'bsdl'? or maybe even 'cddl'?
<Guest74>
I don't care about non free software.
<kathe>
umnn, isn't 'bsd' software free?
<Guest74>
it can be used by non free.
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<kathe>
true. but isn't the 'cddl' stronger than 'gpl'/'lgpl' in that sense?
<Guest74>
that can be used with non free as well.
<kathe>
yeah right, that's why zfs isn't built into linux! and 'gnu' folks keep grumbling!
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<Guest74>
the downside to writing desktop stuff is making stupid changes to your running system. Just made a new bug in my workspace handling and stuff disappeared.
<kathe>
your data!
<kathe>
btw, what "kind" of applications are you developing in common-lisp?
<kathe>
yes, i understood that they are desktop related, but for which type of work?
<kathe>
or are they for leisure activities like games or music/video?
<Guest74>
window manager to start.
<kathe>
i just realised that if i don't go the scheme way (sicp, eopl, lisp) i can shave-off 2 years from my study schedule.
<Guest74>
changing that right now to work with the same UI stuff as the rest of the system, and make it work on console as well.
<kathe>
i'm not all that strong on parsers, interpreters, compilers.
<kathe>
Guest74: you're developing a window manager in common-lisp! awesome.
<kathe>
will it be like stump-wm? i.e. keyboard oriented? or more with mouse?
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<Guest74>
It's one of the reasons I added some of th emissing extensions to CLX.
<kathe>
what can "structure and implementation of computer programs", "essentials of programming languages" and "lisp in small pieces" teach me that would be useful while working on beach's "second-climacs" code-editor?
<kathe>
i do intend to meticulously work through 'paip' though.
<kathe>
i just don't want to deviate into "scheme" land unnecessarily.
<Guest74>
It's more repl controlled right now. my goal is to not have to interact with it and it just do what I want.
<kathe>
also would like to save 2+ years of study time.
<kathe>
Guest74: any way to track your progress? other than on here?
<Guest74>
You have to ask others about those books. Beach's projects seem to be laid out very logically.
<kathe>
yes. i'm in awe of beach's disciplined approach. also he's very meticulous.
<Guest74>
nope. I'm trying to tighten up some libraries so I can at least release an alpha of the basic window manager.
<Bike>
SICP and so on are good books that should improve your programming generally. they're not directly related to editors any more than PAIP is. course that doesn't mean you have to read them if you don't want to.
<Guest74>
I'm sure it'll still change after I get it running on the console.
<kathe>
which areas of computer science be used in producing syntax-colouring and other code-editing tasks?
<kathe>
not that it's all i'm going to work on, but that's what i want to beign with.
<kathe>
and if 'sicp' and associated books need not be worked through, i might as well not.
<White_Flame>
not really CS, but error-aware lexing/parsing and ASTs
<kathe>
White_Flame: so i guess compiler related stuff?
<White_Flame>
sure
<White_Flame>
and of course whatever it takes to interface with the editor of choice
<kathe>
White_Flame: any books/material you could suggest to understand lexers, parsers and 'ast' using common-lisp?
<White_Flame>
I'm not familiar with compiler-in-lisp books
<kathe>
i remember one of the lisp hackers at "cleartrip" talking about some great book on 'ast' using common-lisp, can't remember the title.
<White_Flame>
but I guess the reader would also need to change, unless you want to die on the first unreadable form and lose the ability to display any errors further into the buffer
<kathe>
hmnn, the best books on compiler-using-lisp are 'sicp', 'eopl' and 'lisp'. :(
<kathe>
darn, i think it's best that i work through them.
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<Bike>
yeah, eclector has a lot of hardening where you can make it keep reading through errors.
<kathe>
would be good to have a strong background.
<White_Flame>
or you just do it or read what goes on in slime
<White_Flame>
it's a generally bounded set of problems
<Bike>
i don't know if you need to learn lexing/parsing/AST production for beach's editor. those parts are already done in the main
<White_Flame>
though all kind of weird and subjective as to what it "should" do
<Bike>
i mean, might be good to know anyway.
<kathe>
i guess there's wisdom in being patient. will work through those scheme books.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<hashfuncd0d>
beach: howdy
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<kathe>
good morning everyone. :)
<kathe>
found a good book on interpreters at craftinginterpreters.com
<kathe>
beach: hey, hi. :)
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<SR-71>
Is there someone who uses an editor other than emacs?
<moon-child>
I'm sure there are plenty
<SR-71>
I wonder who uses Vim for cl developement.
<SR-71>
How is Lispworks compared to SBCL?
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<beach>
SR-71: It has technical support that you pay for. And people seem to like their proprietary GUI system "CAPI".
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<beach>
SR-71: With respect to who uses Vim for Common Lisp development, I am not sure what you want to know. There are several people here who do, but I don't think there is an official list of who they are.
<dre>
SR-71, I do; I use neovim + conjure; it's not as good as swank but it's getting there.
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<lisp123w>
SR-71: I use Emacs & LispWorks. Emacs editor is far superior (LW is a bit buggy at times)
<lisp123w>
LW's editor however is in the same image as your program, so that's pretty cool, plus they do have certain features that are better
<jackdaniel>
having an editor in the image is a double-edged sword - you may crash your whole ide while testing the application ;)
<jackdaniel>
(bar "assuming sufficiently safe implementation" which is essentially similar to "sufficiently smart compiler")
<lisp123w>
jackdaniel: 10)%
<lisp123w>
100%*
<lisp123w>
I am restarting LW every 15 minutes
<lisp123w>
People like to romaticise about the 80s and Lisp IDEs then, but the reality was a bit different
<lisp123w>
Granted, I'm restarting because I'm modifying the editor itself and I'm stuck and can no longer type keys, but the level of crashing in LW far exceeds that of Emacs because everythng is in the same image
<rotateq>
lisp123w: do you have a full version?
<lisp123w>
rotateq: yeah
<lisp123w>
its a useful intermediate environment until 2nd Climacs or whichever Free CL Editor is fully ready
<rotateq>
okay maybe in 2+ years when i can afford the money finally for something like that :)
<lisp123w>
And I'm writing my editor extensions (like VI mode and ParEdit) in hopefully a portable way so that it can be add some value to others in the future
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<lisp123w>
rotateq: You can ask for a free evaluation license now just get to get a feel
<rotateq>
i think i loaded one at some point, as with ACL
<lisp123w>
I would like a copy of ACL so bad
<lisp123w>
I think I'm in the sunk cost phase with LW, since I paid for it, now I have to justify it lol
<ecraven>
what's ACL?
<lisp123w>
Allegro Common Lisp
<lisp123w>
Famous for its AllegroCache, among other things
<lisp123w>
Infamous for run time fees ;)
<ecraven>
is there any relation to the allegro game programming library, coincidentally?
<lisp123w>
Although a % of 0 is always 0 :)
<phoe>
ecraven: no
<ecraven>
I've been wondering for years ;) thanks for clearing that up
<ecraven>
they should really create a gaming library in CL, just to confuse things further :P
<rotateq>
ecraven: and ACL2 means the functional subdialect, also usable as a prove system
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* pl
used to have ACL Enterprise time-limited license
<ecraven>
is ACL much better than SBCL?
<pl>
ACL2 is a separate project IIRC
<pl>
ecraven: depends on what you need to do
<pl>
I believe SBCL generates faster code, but there's all kinds of stuff *other than compiler* involved with commercial lisps
<rotateq>
yes many things on top i would say
<pl>
I don't remember specific language-implementation side benefits in Allegro, but I think it might have better GC (and of course better support for Windows)
<pl>
From my personal PoV LW is more interesting (among other things, embeddable like ECL, and its GUI library is cross-platform unlike Allegro's CG)
<pl>
LW's CAPI has Win32, Cocoa, GTK+ and Motif backends. Allegro's CG has Win32 and GTK+, and that's lead to pain if you have to deal with macs
<pl>
(on top of all other pain Macs bring ;V)
<pl>
I had temporary license because I tried to push a student project into using AllegroGraph, and the best integration is with ACL running in "modern" mode, iirc
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<lisp123w>
Yeah it seems LW's strongpoint is portablity and ACL is around AllegroCache / AllegroGraph / other data stuff
<lisp123w>
Unfortunately I tried building an LW dynamic library with a Swift app, but it failed - so that sucked
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<rotateq>
oh not so swifty
<lisp123w>
not indeed ;)
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<lisp123w>
I think its worthwhile for everyone to try multiple lisp implementations and not just restrict to SBCL
<lisp123w>
e.g. CLISP / CCL / ABCL / ECL / others -> a lot can be learned from doing things slightly differently
<rotateq>
of course
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<rotateq>
lisp123w: or approaching to compile CLASP ^^
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<lisp123w>
rotateq: nice :)
* pl
has some projects on roadmap that might involve a lot of ECL :3
<rotateq>
it's huge lisp123w. and all this C++ and LLVM jeez
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<lisp123w>
rotateq: Indeed :)
<lisp123w>
phoe: Re LW, It may be better if you guys contact then separately
<lisp123w>
They have a business model, $1,200 or something for X number of support tickets
<lisp123w>
Makes it a bit awkward if everyone is on the chat
<phoe>
lisp123w: OK
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<etimmons>
Anyone here host their project on GitLab and are interested in adding or improving their automated testing? I've got some GitLab CI templates specifically geared toward CL projects that I'd love some feedback on.
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<fitzsim>
etimmons: I just added cl-starter-script to gitlab.common-lisp.net, after the administrator allowed me to create new projects
<fitzsim>
etimmons: it's meant to be standalone, except for needing one of /usr/bin/clisp, /usr/bin/ecl or /usr/bin/sbcl
<fitzsim>
and it has a ./run-tests.lisp script
<fitzsim>
actually, the run-tests.lisp script needs all three Lisps because it compares the results between them to make sure they're identical
<AeroNotix>
jackdaniel: after years of seeing you on IRC, I only heard the other day you're in Poland.
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<jackdaniel>
sure, I'm living in Przemyśl if you are curious
<AeroNotix>
Iwanowice Wloscianskie here
<AeroNotix>
say hi to Putin for me when he drops by jackdaniel
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<jackdaniel>
sure
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<etimmons>
fitzsim: Cool! I just took a look at cl-starter-script. None of my guides are really applicable to it (they're all focused on libraries and parallel testing of multiple implementations). But I'll add a section that I think would be applicable and then send you a link.
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<AeroNotix>
this way... the user's code could do pointer maths on the pointer, the way it is right now if you do e.g. cffi:incf-pointer in with-foreign-pointer it will raise a segv
<AeroNotix>
I can send a patch, ezpz lemon squee-z
<AeroNotix>
but interested if people think I'm nucking futz
<AeroNotix>
I patched it locally here and things work as I expect.. need to look at `with-alien' as well to achieve the same
<masinter>
is every CONSTANTP guaranteed to EVAL at macr expand time?
<masinter>
macro
<AeroNotix>
yeah
<AeroNotix>
it's part of the macro, not the expanded code
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<foxfromabyss>
after `SELECT` I *think* i get a plist, `(time 2022-02-09T19:33:34.108813+00:00)`, where `time` is a keyword (that's what `type-of` told me), but I can't figure out how to access that specific parameter
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<foxfromabyss>
i am outputting the row with `format t "~A~%" row` if that helps
<White_Flame>
~s gives more specifics than ~a, and if you just let the return value print on the repl, you'll see it's :TIME, not TIME. ~a will elide the package
<White_Flame>
so (getf retval :time)
<foxfromabyss>
oh, it actually returns `:|time|` as key, that solves it
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<foxfromabyss>
thanks a lot!
<White_Flame>
ah, even worse :)
<White_Flame>
wow, yeah, ~a is pretty bad there
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<jasom>
~s is your friend
<AeroNotix>
not my friend
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