<beach>
AeroNotix: CLOSOS requires (among other things) first-class global environments, so SICL is currently the only alternative for its Common Lisp implementation.
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<masinter>
ls
<moon-child>
pwd
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<qhong>
is there a lock free queue?
<moon-child>
hmm, I don't know if there is one for cl, but https://liblfds.org/ could make a port
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<qhong>
idk if ffi overhead will be smaller than just use a lock
<moon-child>
hence 'port'
<moon-child>
I didn't mean to suggest using ffi
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<flip214>
lock-free means using atomic operations and retries, which will affect the CPU-buses nearly the same as using locks, so there might not be that much advantage
<flip214>
https://lwn.net/Articles/590243/ might be a good idea for multiple CPUs in multiple sockets, ie. when the communication overhead goes up
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<qhong>
flip214: interesting, this looks promising, probably good to make a user-space mutex library
<qhong>
flip214: dedicated lock free data structure are still useful because they can avoid contention itself in many cases (different processor work on different part of the data structure). Now I think about it, ppl usually call them lock free, but one can probably do those dedicated data structures using just locks
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<qhong>
but anyway, I just want to grab some existing working library and don't feel like writing one myself
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<flip214>
qhong: look at LPARALLEL or, if sbcl-specific is okay, sb-thread has queues as well
<bollu>
what's the common lisp equivalent of `set(xs)` in python?
<jackdaniel>
why do you assume that people know what is set(xs) in python?
<bollu>
jackdaniel fair point. it builds a set of elements from the sequence `xs`. In this case, let's suppose `xs` is a list for simplicity.
<jackdaniel>
list may be treated as a set, there are some built-in operators in common lisp that work on lists as if they were sets (like union or intersection)
<bollu>
jackdaniel I see. I wanted to remove duplicates
<jackdaniel>
(defun set (sequence) (remove-duplicates sequence))
<phoe>
;; (shadow 'set)
<jackdaniel>
right
<jackdaniel>
or: (union sequence sequence)
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<moon-child>
a 'set' in python is assumed to have linear lookup time, which a list does not
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<moon-child>
moreover, semantically, a list with duplicate items functions as a perfectly good set
<qhong>
flip214: ha, the package is :sb-concurrency. Thanks! I didn’t expect to find them as sbcl built-ins. The algorithm is a bit old (2004) but should be better than nothing
<jdz>
moon-child: Did you mean "constant", not "linear"?
<moon-child>
err, yeah
<moon-child>
(well, might be log idk)
<flip214>
moon-child: then use (ale:alist-to-hash-table (mapcar #'cons seq seq))
<flip214>
sorry, alexandria:alist-to-hash-table.... <tab> doesn't autocomplete here ;/
<bollu>
I imagine remove-duplicates in O(n^2)?
<jdz>
bollu: How big are your "sets"?
<moon-child>
flip214: I would rather (mapcar #'cons seq '#1=(t . #1#))
<flip214>
bollu: no, not necessarily. an implementation can use a hash-table for improved lookup times.
<beach>
bollu: It cold be O(n) if the test is one that fits a hash table.
<bollu>
jdz I'm creating set to uniqify a large corpus to create the vocabulary
<bollu>
so n is quite large :)
<jackdaniel>
if the implementation uses a hash table then it is O(n)
<bollu>
jackdaniel right.
<moon-child>
jackdaniel: beach just said that :)
<jackdaniel>
I'm a slow sleep-deprived typer
<jackdaniel>
yes he did
* moon-child
also sleep-deprived, should probably go to sleep now buuuuut
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<flip214>
bollu: but if you don't read your data into a list but a hash-table directly, you might still save some CPU
<bollu>
oh, right, I'm in the haskell mindset where I imagine that there's one implementation that needs to use the lowest common denominator available, which is to say, equality. But I imagine in the case of CL, the implementation can specialize in the case where the list is hashable?
<jackdaniel>
do you mean "where the set is represented as a hashtable"?
<bollu>
yes, that's what I meant
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<kathe>
beach: is your license for second-climacs similar to bsd-like licenses?
<kathe>
beach: while it seems familiar, there's something regarding "copyrights" that seems different.
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<beach>
I assume so, since it is in a file named LICENSE-BSD.
<kathe>
beach: i'm taking this off-channel. writing you a direct private email.
<kathe>
beach: hope you won't get pissed off.
<kathe>
beach: i'm definitely impressed with "sicl" as well as "second-climacs".
<beach>
Thanks.
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<foxfromabyss>
How do I inspect a system to know what the package name is? I feel like the package i am trying to import has a different name than the system (and no alias to the system name)
<phoe>
instead I do all the work in my own package and only hack a single symbol into package QUICKLISP - which still is bad style, but much less of a danger when it comes to clobbering some existing definitions
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<phoe>
if I operated in the same package, I would need to worry that there is no class named QUICKLISP:QUACK-STREAM and no function named QUICKLISP:WRITE-QUACK - probably very unlikely in this concrete case, but hey, it's possbile in the general case
<phoe>
and this danger only grows and grows the more stuff you define
<phoe>
but yeah, Common Lisp makes it possible to easily patch other people's code, and you'd better know what you're doing if you decide to do that
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<foxfromabyss>
does `list` "snapshot"(copy?) current values of the variables it encapsulates, instead of just containing a reference?
<phoe>
LIST is like any other function
<foxfromabyss>
i.e. `(let ((x 5) (y (list x) (print x) (setf x 6) (print (first y))` would output `5` and then `5` again?
<foxfromabyss>
what do you mean by "like any other function"? :)
<phoe>
when a function is called, its arguments are evaluated
<phoe>
then the function is called with these values
<foxfromabyss>
i am mostly referring to "copy value" vs "copy reference"
<foxfromabyss>
i see
<phoe>
it doesn't matter if it's LIST or not
<phoe>
oh, that thing
<phoe>
beach calls this "uniform reference semantics"
<phoe>
and it also notes that the term is not in wide use and is complicated
<foxfromabyss>
guessed as much :P
<foxfromabyss>
i see.
<foxfromabyss>
does this mean that there's no clean way to backpropagate a change in a variable to the change in the list somewhere?
<phoe>
you cannot mutate a lexical variable from outside the scope it is defined in
<phoe>
;; the only exception is a closure
<phoe>
this also means that assignment operators like SETF need to be macros
<phoe>
rather than functions
<foxfromabyss>
gotcha :)
<foxfromabyss>
still not 100% sure, what should be a macro and what a function tbh
<phoe>
everything should be a function
<phoe>
with the exception of things that cannot or should not be a function
<foxfromabyss>
a clever take!
<phoe>
where "cannot" means because they cannot implement the necessary semantics otherwise
<phoe>
and where "should not" means because the result would be syntactically ugly or complex
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<foxfromabyss>
gotcha gotcha :) thanks a lot!
<beach>
It is amazing to me how languages with exceedingly complicated semantics have been allowed to brainwash many generations of developers. Lisp semantics was simple from the start and still is.
<moon-child>
phoe: I don't think (with-open-file '(...) (lambda (fp) ...)) is ugly per se, when compared with (with-open-file (fp ...) ...)
<moon-child>
however it is still a meaningful abstraction, and notably it is a syntactic one
<phoe>
moon-child: what is '(...) ?
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<moon-child>
e.g. "something.txt" :direction :input
<phoe>
oh, so the argument list
<phoe>
the main issue is that it needs to be evaluated and consed
<phoe>
there's a slightly better approach for WITH macros
<moon-child>
not if it's a literal
<moon-child>
which it was there--hence the quote
<phoe>
there's a slightly better approach for WITH macros - (call-with-open-file thunk #p"something.txt" :direction :output ...)
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<phoe>
this way (defun call-with-open-file (thunk pathname &rest args &key direction ...) ...) can use &key
<moon-child>
ah sure
<phoe>
and many WITH macros are actually implemented as a thin layer over a matching CALL-WITH function where the macro body goes into a lambda body
<moon-child>
(though--if you're just gonna apply OPEN to the result, you don't actually wanna parse the key args. This came up recently)
<phoe>
yes, you can just (apply #'open pathname args) :D
<phoe>
hence my &rest args up there
<phoe>
the &key direction ... is there for slime syntax hints and such
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<lagash>
beach: what "mainstream" language would you say has the ugliest semantics?
<beach>
lagash: There are many recent languages I haven't studied, so I don't know about those, but C++ definitely comes to mind.
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<lagash>
I was going to guess C++, yeah *shudders*
<beach>
They kind of didn't have a choice though.
<beach>
Once you decide that you don't want automatic memory management, pretty much all the other semantic decisions follow.
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<Guest74>
If I'm waiting for events from the kernel, what function do I use to detect if there's any bytes waiting? LISTEN seems to imply it's for character streams.
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<Xach>
Guest74: there is not a standard function in CL for that.
<Bike>
if you're "waiting on events from the kernel" you're presumably using some library, right? it probably has polling systems
<Guest74>
hmm, well, that's a bummer.
<Xach>
I think there are a handful of libraries that may offer some compatibility layer for doing that.
<Xach>
When I needed it (a long time ago) I wrote some sb-alien for epoll functions, it was a very small amount of code.
<Guest74>
bike: no, just using cl.
<Xach>
If I were doing it today I'd spend some time looking for a library.
<Bike>
CL doesn't have a concept of kernels or events. what are you doing?
<Guest74>
I heard some talk about epoll, select that I didn't pay attention to. Is there something that people have landed on? I know some people here have worked on eventing systems.
<Guest74>
bike: getting events from the linux kernel.
<Guest74>
I figure go with the basics and see if there's any trouble before being forced into some ffi ugliness.
<Xach>
There is no built-in way to do it. Implementations may or may not provide it as an extension. They are doing the ffi ugliness so you don't have to.
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<Guest74>
basic-binary-ipc doesn't seem to work on /dev
<Guest74>
xach: I'd rather use what an implementation has implemented than use an outside foreign library.
<kathe>
beach: why did you choose bsd-license for "sicl"?
<kathe>
beach: i've got nothing against it. just curious.
<phoe>
AeroNotix: nice
<AeroNotix>
next is to make it all nice n lispy
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<beach>
kathe: I did not choose a GPL derivative because it is not well adapted to language processors. The choice between BSD, MIT and similar ones was a tossup.
<kathe>
beach: got it. thanks.
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<White_Flame>
also consider that while gcc is GPL, the runtime library portion of it had to have an exception for it. That situation gets even weirder in image-based languages
<beach>
Yeah.
<AeroNotix>
everything should just be public domain
<beach>
And, as much as I am saddened by it, many people don't like GPL derivatives, and that includes Lispers. I do plan to use GPL for applications like Clovetree (Gsharp v2).
<White_Flame>
lots of people are looking for "commercial use verboten" licenses nowadays, and that's very underserved
<beach>
AeroNotix: That's version 1, yes. But version 2 is planned, but stalled because I am very busy.
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<AeroNotix>
yeah I get that that is version 1
<beach>
White_Flame: I have nothing against commercial use of my stuff. I would mind very much if my stuff were incorporated in some non-free larger system.
<beach>
But again, it gets very complicated with language processors, and, as you pointed out, even more so with image--based languages.
<White_Flame>
then you should probably use AGPL as everything turns into "services" where backend non-free use would not violate the GPL
<White_Flame>
(for stuff like gsharp)
<beach>
I'll consider that when it becomes urgent.
<beach>
AeroNotix: Since I wrote Gsharp, the technology for displaying music material has vastly improved and I no longer need all the font stuff I had to create at the time. Plus, I made a few design mistakes that I want to fix.
<Guest74>
We're currently seeing a lot of problems with large corporations with lots of revenue using free software developers as their unpaid workers. I don't see the point in supporting people who don't contribute to the community.l
<beach>
AeroNotix: The other thing is that display resolution has improved a lot, making some of the anti-aliasing compromises I did no longer required.
<phoe>
no need to anti-alias anymore because the screen resolution got so good, eh
<beach>
Pretty much, yes.
<White_Flame>
please no :(
<beach>
I will do *some*, but not all the tricks I had to play with Gsharp.
<White_Flame>
that'd be a per-display tuning if you know it's high dpi
<beach>
By the time I am done with Clovetree, all displays will be high resolution. :)
<White_Flame>
all _new_ displays maybe
<White_Flame>
but stilll, I'm on 27" 4k, and good AA is still important
<beach>
All old ones will have broken, or become so energy inefficient that they should be replaced anyway.
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<beach>
White_Flame: I still plan to do gray-scale anti-aliasing, but for Gsharp, I had to limit the possible staff sizes so that there would be an integer number of scan lines between two staff lines always.
<beach>
Many such decisions are no longer required.
<White_Flame>
eh, that would still be quite noticeable
<beach>
Also, I was limited by X11 not having transparency, so I had to create lots of combined fonts rather than just drawing things on top of others.
<Guest74>
If you do that then you run into the Word problem, where what you display is not what comes out printed. Which would seem detrimental to music layout.
<beach>
I could not draw a filled notehead above another filled notehead, because they would overlap and the result was incorrect.
<White_Flame>
does that just mean 2 fingers on 1 key? ;)
<beach>
Guest74: That's not a bit problem with music, because it is possible to move things horizontally by half a pixel without it being noticed.
<White_Flame>
yeah, it's the regularity of the staff lines that would be most noticeable if they were distributed unevenly across pixel rows
<White_Flame>
the horizontal not as much
<beach>
White_Flame: That screenshot just illustrates layout of alterations.
<White_Flame>
I know, just a funny chord
<beach>
Sure.
<White_Flame>
oh and I guess the 2nd one has E sharp and F natural, too
<White_Flame>
can't not point it out ;)
<beach>
Thanks. :)
<beach>
s/bit problem/big problem/
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<beach>
So one restriction was that the space between two staff lines had to be an even number of pixels when the staff line thickness is an odd number of pixels (say 1), so that noteheads on a staff line and noteheads between staff lines looked the same. Stuff like that is no longer necessary because of automatic anti-aliasing, and the use of alpha channels.
<beach>
But I agree that it might be good to have staff lines be an integer number of pixels thick and also aligned to the pixel grid.
<Guest74>
are you planning on using a glyph atlas from the render extension? Or some higher level abstraction?
<beach>
I am using McCLIM, so we have backends that can use the render extension of X11.
<beach>
But I believe we do our own rendering.
<beach>
To squeeze as much material possible into a screen at the time, I had to have a font with only 6 pixels between two adjacent staff lines. That might be exaggerated today, and it introduced all those constraints on the fonts.
<White_Flame>
re staff lines, if the thickness of the lines gets >2px, then you can probably just free place & antialias them
<beach>
There is a new standard for music fonts with lots of information on how glyphs fit together, and there is a new free font that is very complete and that respects that standard.
<beach>
White_Flame: Yeah, that sounds right.
<beach>
But not less.
<beach>
One thing I want to keep from Gsharp and that many existing score editors do wrong is to enforce the duration of bars. Some classical music does not respect this restriction in the notation, and it is horribly inconvenient during editing.
<beach>
So Gsharp does not enforce any such duration.
<beach>
It makes editing *much* more convenient.
<beach>
Hmm, that came out wrong.
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<beach>
Existing score editors enforce, and that's a bad idea. Gsharp does not enforce and it makes editing much easier.
<Guest74>
it's been a long time since I used one, but i remember some having problems with multiple time changes as well.
<beach>
I can imagine.
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<beach>
Oh, and the reference I used for layout is by Ross. Now there is a much more complete book entitled "Behind bars".
<beach>
So there are now lots and lots of algorithms and heuristics to implement. :)
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<beach>
And the new name is "Clovetree", because it contains "Cl", and it fits with the tradition: Rosegarden, LilyPond.
<cosimone>
hello, i have a question: just how close is the hyperspec to the cl standard? i seem to recall having read somewhere that it was generated directly from the standard, but i could be mistaken
<beach>
It was generated from the dpANS.
<beach>
Which we have been told has only cosmetic differences with the standard.
<beach>
But, the translation to HTML introduced mistakes.
<beach>
Actually, maybe he got dispensation and could use the final standard?
<beach>
I forget now. scymtym will know.
<beach>
Shinmera: Forgot to tell you. We both plan to go to ELS, barring COVID-related problems of course.
<beach>
cosimone: scymtym did a presentation for the online Lisp meeting about it recently. You should be able to find the video online.
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<Shinmera>
beach: great!
<cosimone>
beach: oh, that's good to know, i'll try looking for it
<phoe>
Is it possible for an implementation to have only arrays that are actually adjustable?
<beach>
Yes.
<cosimone>
scymtym: thanks, downloading right now
<phoe>
beach: thanks
<beach>
Sure. The phrasing of the standard is a bit strange.
<beach>
... it is easy to (incorrectly) turn the implication arrow around.
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* phoe
gets bitten by (subseq '(1 2 3 . 4) 0 3) being illegal
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<AeroNotix>
straz miejska en route
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* phoe
runs
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<jcowan>
I didn't know there were Usenet flamewars over Chicken
<jcowan>
oops ww
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<jcowan>
Wurst is better, and Weisswurst is best.
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* moon-child
wants to hear more about these usenet flamewars
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<hashfuncd0d>
I'm trying to poke around and learn but evaluating the form `(sb-disassem::fun-code #'cons)` gives me the error "The function SB-DISASSEM::FUN-CODE is undefined."
<moon-child>
try just (disassemble #'cons)?
<hashfuncd0d>
moon-child: i need to use `sb-disassem::fun-code` in this situation
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<AeroNotix>
hashfuncd0d: you can't because it doesn't exist
<AeroNotix>
there is sb-disassem::fun-code-header
<AeroNotix>
hashfuncd0d: why do you "need" to use a non-existent function?
<hashfuncd0d>
AeroNotix: oh my word... emacs was suggesting the function `sb-disassem::fun-code` because i typed it in earler. `sb-disassem::fun-code-header` works, but i'm not sure if it will do
<AeroNotix>
hashfuncd0d: I still don't get why disassemble isn't suitable