<mfiano>
I guess I am just generating too much code...
<mfiano>
My problem is, each method will be performing the same algorithm, and that can be reduced down to a single array that I want to expand to (load-time-value some-unique-array-per-method)
<mfiano>
Because the algorithm is too intensive for runtime
<mfiano>
Not sure what my options are now :/
<Bike>
you could maybe hack it by dividing into multiple top level forms
<mfiano>
Not exactly sure how you mean.
<Bike>
like instead of (progn a-million-defmethods) you have (progn a-hundred-thousand-defmethods) (progn a-hundred-thousand-defmethods) ...
<mfiano>
I wonder how many methods this actually is...
<Bike>
if the compiler is choking on the amount of code, it's probably more because of having them all in the same top level form, rather than just having them at all
<Bike>
looks like at least several thousand?
<mfiano>
552 permutations
<mfiano>
8 *chromatic-transformation-transforms*
<EdLangley[m]>
I ran into this when I tried to use babel to turn a node project into ES3 and then load the generated code with cl-js
<fe[nl]ix>
beach: where is that website hosted ?
<EdLangley[m]>
For some reason, cljs can't handle the tremendous amount of code in the typical node project :)
<beach>
fe[nl]ix: Network solutions.
<fe[nl]ix>
I imagine they have a control panel somewhere where you can setup HTTPS hosting with automatically renewed certificates
<beach>
fe[nl]ix: Maybe so. My problem is that there were 5 words in that phrase that I don't understand. But I'll investigate. Thanks.
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<mfiano>
Bike: I am at a loss. Here is 1 type only, that takes about 30 seconds to macro-expand (and the permutation list generates instantaneously). I don't think this is a correct expansion, because perms length is only 552
<mfiano>
Well maybe that is 552 methods actually. line count seems about right
<mfiano>
No idea why that takes forever to expand though
<Bike>
each method is about three lines, so, yeah
<mfiano>
I mean it's not doing much 552 times. Certainly not 30 seconds enough
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<Bike>
yeah, i suppose that is kind of weird. profile?
<mfiano>
How would I profile macro-expansion?
<beach>
mfiano: Are you using SBCL? Then try the statistical profiler.
<Bike>
throw (macroexpand-1 '(generate-chromatic-adaptation-methods :bradford)) at the profiler
<mfiano>
Ok
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<mfiano>
Well that completed instantly, so I guess it is just the inline macrostepper that is slow. However, I get a very strange error at load time now.
<mfiano>
and ultimately signals a condition: There is no class named :LED-B3.
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<mfiano>
I am expanding to EQL specialization...
<mfiano>
Oh no I'm not
<mfiano>
Sigh I'm an idiot
<Bike>
oh, yeah, i was gonna point that out but figured it wasn't relevant
<mfiano>
Although, I am still only generating bradford. Let me try them all again
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<mfiano>
I don't understand why macroexpand-1 in the statistical profiler completes too soon to give any profiling data, but it takes like 30 seconds to compile/load the fasl
<mfiano>
i wouldn't expect methods to take long to compile until their first invocation
<EdLangley[m]>
Maybe profile compile?
<Bike>
uh, compilation is going to take longer than macroexpansion basically always.
<Bike>
compiling things is hard. even if it doesn't build up the discriminating function until it's called, you're telling it to compile several thousand method bodies.
<mfiano>
good call...that is taking some time
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<EdLangley[m]>
So, you could provide a macro that compiles only the methods the user needs
<Bike>
also, i don't remotely understand what you're doing, but several thousand eql-specialized methods is probably not the best way to do it
<mfiano>
ok and considering i didn't even get to the meat of the computationally expensive method bodies, I fear I need to find another solution
<Bike>
like, could you not just use a hash table or something.
<mfiano>
The whole point is so I don't have to run a 20 line linear algebra matrix multiplication pipeline at runtime for each pixel of an arbitrarily sized image. just multiplying the pixel by a single matrix (that i want these methods to reduce to) would be FAR more efficient
<mfiano>
I am avoiding hash tables completely because of thread contention when synchronizing with a mutex
<mfiano>
also, not very portable
<Bike>
i mean. there's like a pretty decent chance that method lookup will also go through a hash table.
<EdLangley[m]>
So, if you precompute the hash table and then only read, you shouldn’t need to synchronize, right?
<Bike>
are you saying that each of these methods is supposed to return a matrix, and then the caller applies that to some vector representing a pixel
<mfiano>
Unfortunately SBCL yells loudly if 2 threads attempt to read a hash table even
<mfiano>
Bike: Yes
<Bike>
because in that case you could just store the matrices in the table, seems like
<EdLangley[m]>
Hmm, I haven’t seen that.
<Bike>
yells? like, you get an error?
<mfiano>
Yeah a debugger for each lparallel thread.
<Bike>
i am not sure how a hash table would be corrupted just from reads...
<Bike>
and as a dumb little test i just spawned a few threads to read from the same key of a hash table a million times, and that went fine
<EdLangley[m]>
I’m not seeing any error from concurrent reads either
<mfiano>
Interesting. Maybe I am mis-remembering, though I'm not sure how SBCL could know that another thread isn't currently writing
<Bike>
don't think it does. i checked the source, and this error is signaled when sbcl determines a hash table has been corrupted. like, if some previous operations broke it, a subsequent operation might result in this error
<EdLangley[m]>
It’s perfectly fine to say that modifying the hash-table is UB
<EdLangley[m]>
As far as your library is concerned
<mfiano>
Yes I agree.
<EdLangley[m]>
That is, if the hash-table is an implementation detail.
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<mfiano>
I will just have to think how to represent everything.
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<mfiano>
There are 3 specializers in the GF. I don't really want runtime EQUAL testing on a 3-tuple per pixel just to hash to get the right value out.
<EdLangley[m]>
Also, ironclad takes a while to load
<mfiano>
Maybe I am being paranoid though
<EdLangley[m]>
It’s not entirely out of the question just to eat the compile-time cost
<Bike>
i think you are being optimistic to think that method dispatch will never do runtime testing on a tuple
<mfiano>
I very well could be. I just like methods because now I have to think about extensibility
<Bike>
if you're concerned enough, you could implement your own hashing scheme
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<mfiano>
I was planning on having the user define a set of 3 different methods to define a color space, that can be easily introspectible with M-., but now I have to stick everything in a single global opaque hash table, without some other convenient introspection interface.
<mfiano>
I will think more.
<pillton>
I thought there was an API for M-.?
<EdLangley[m]>
The other option is to figure out some way to only define the methods the user wants
<Bike>
scrolling through a list of thousands of methods on the M-. screen might not actually be that easy
<mfiano>
Eh it's not that difficult with search. At least not with my thousands of GLSL-like vector swizzle operators :)
<mfiano>
a buffer-narrowing search package comes in handy here, too
<mfiano>
In any case, I'm not sure I wouldn't run into the same problem with a hash table. The matrices are the product of a computationally expensive algorithm. I'm running into compile times taking too long without even performing the algorithm, just by the shear number of what will be hash table entries to populate.
<mfiano>
s/entries/keys/
<mfiano>
I guess maybe this should just be lazily memoized
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<mfiano>
Ah but that could happen any time at runtime, with multiple threads, so throws the hash table idea out for memoization.
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<mfiano>
I clearly need to come up with some better ideas. I should call it for today.
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<mfiano>
Well, the funny thing is everything compiles instantly if I just populate a defvar at compile time with all 6960 matrices, including the computationally expensive algorithm for each to derive them.
<mfiano>
So I have a hash table that is populated instantaneously. Something a macro was having a very hard to with.
<mfiano>
hard time*
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<kathe>
is it essential (rather than recommended) to study 'sicp'?
<kathe>
can a person get by without 'sicp' while working under 'cl'?
<ecraven>
I'd guess yes ;)
<ecraven>
many people work fine with CL and haven't read it
<kathe>
cool. thanks ecraven. :)
<ecraven>
given that it isn't even written in CL (but in Scheme), many of the code snippets in it won't work directly in CL anyway ;)
<flip214>
kathe: (the classic) SICP uses Scheme, which is one Lisp dialect; Common Lisp is another. There are quite a few differences.
<kathe>
i've heard tales of 'sicp' turning a person into superhuman common lisp programmer.
<flip214>
Still, it is a very good book - and rewriting the examples in CL is a good exercise.
<pjb>
Honestly, the main message of sicp, it was taught to me by my university teachers, with programs in Pascal!
<ecraven>
I still think that the *ideas* in SICP are very much reading it for, but they can be gotten from other places ;)
<flip214>
Is there only one, main, message? I've found lots of good thoughts in there.
<pjb>
But sicp can go beyond, since it uses scheme, because lisp provides clearly different mode of abstration.
<kathe>
i got my foundations with "logo" (which is also a lisp). :)
<pjb>
Of course, there are a lot of facettes, but the main message is to use abstractions.
<kathe>
ecraven: where can i get ideas from 'sicp' from a 'cl' angle?
<pjb>
Well, just do the exercises in CL instead of scheme ;-)
<pjb>
This has been done, several times (students have published their solutions). and in other languages, including C++!
<phoe>
just sprinkle a few FUNCALLs over the original code, replace DEFINE with DEFUN over LET, and you have the CL version :D
<ecraven>
kathe: just read SICP, the *ideas* port over to CL nicely, just the syntax is sometimes different
<kathe>
ecraven: thanks. but i think i'll pass.
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<kathe>
i think i'll devote energies towards 'paip'.
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<flip214>
kathe: "Practical Common Lisp" is a good book, too.
<kathe>
flip124: yes, i'm looking forward to that before 'paip'.
<kathe>
:)
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<kathe>
i've scheduled 'paip' as the last book in my study regimen.
<kathe>
i read that blog post by steve losh. it showed me the way.
<kathe>
but i was very confused about 'sicp' being essential, because a lot of people "talk" a lot about it.
<kathe>
actually, steve losh's blog helped me accept my "vim" leanings.
<kathe>
i was lucky enough to have got my start in 'cs' using full "logo".
<kathe>
most people don't know that "logo" is a lisp. :)
<kathe>
just without parens. ;)
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<kathe>
thank you to all those who shared their opinions and suggestions.
<kathe>
:)
<kathe>
bye.
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<beach>
minion: memo for kathe: Whether some other language (other than the one that is the topic of this channel) is "a lisp" or not is debatable, but such debates are off topic here, and are better conducted in the #lisp channel. There is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp", so such debates are largely pointless.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell kathe when he/she/it next speaks.
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<Josh_2>
Hi
<phoe>
hey
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<Josh_2>
Shinmera: are you here?
<Josh_2>
Have you used Chirp with the latest twitter update? I seem to be having problems with authenticating with pin, I cannot verify-credentials after following the steps you have listed on github
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<Shinmera>
I have not needed to log in in years
<Shinmera>
So it's possible something broke
<Shinmera>
I know the actual oAuth still works though, as I still post using Chirp regularly
<Josh_2>
Yes I can still post using older creds, but can't seem to authenticate new ones :(
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<Shinmera>
Well, time for someone to fix the bug then I guess :)
<bollu>
Why does the following say the variable arg is defined but never used? (defun kk (arg) (arg))
<bollu>
In particular, how do I use arg as a function?
<bollu>
I suspect this has something to do with the common lisp function scoping
<bollu>
thanks!
<phoe>
(defun kk (arg) (funcall fn))
<bollu>
right :)
<phoe>
not with scoping but namespacing
<phoe>
CL has separate namespaces for variables and functions
<phoe>
so you can do stuff like (let ((fn ...)) ...) and (flet ((fn ...)) ...) without the two colliding with one another
<bollu>
right
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<mon_aaraj>
oh wow, phoe and shinmera here, guess common lisp is a small world
<Shinmera>
I've been here since... uh.
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<Shinmera>
2016? Something like that?
<mon_aaraj>
yeah, i've started becoming active in libera, irc overrall as well as this channel no short of a couple weeks ago, though i know phoe through another lisp community in another chat platform, and i just saw your projects on github while looking for some common lisp tools
<jdz>
Shinmera: I'd say at least 2015 (because ELS in London was in 2015).
<Shinmera>
jdz: then closer to 2014 or something.
<jdz>
2014 was ELS in Paris, but I don't remember meeting you there. Not that that counts for anything.
<Shinmera>
2013, according to my bio. First library released in november, and I know I started with Lisp the same year (and also joined here at the same time)
<Shinmera>
Almost a decade, damn.
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<Shinmera>
I've probably also long since stopped being the youngest one here :)
<shka>
also, i got my calendar Shinmera, it's also cool, good job
<Shinmera>
Nice! Glad to hear it made its way safely. Thank you for your patronage :)
<phoe>
I also got my calen---oh shit I forgot to update it to February
* phoe
shuffles about
<phoe>
there
<shka>
February art looks worryingly what the view from my window
<bollu>
if I have a two argument function, is there an easy way to make it an n argument function that returns the argument when called with <2 arguments, and folds with the function with >= 2 arguments?
<bollu>
hmm, I guess I just call the right fold/
<jdz>
bollu: Maybe you are looking for REDUCE?
<bollu>
jdz yes, that seems to be what `fold` is called :)
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<clos-encounters>
shka: dang, I was hoping that yt link was an actual demo :P
<shka>
clos-encounters: blame phoe, not me
<clos-encounters>
oh yes, my mistake
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<szos>
shka: Has doors gotten to a stable point yet? last I tried it it wouldnt run on my machine (though the author was very forward in the readme that it was unstable)
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<Josh_2>
Shinmera: I think that twitter has deprecated the 1.1 API's for new Apps
<Josh_2>
Your links to the docs within the library just 404
<Josh_2>
Scratch that, they have moved the docs url
<Josh_2>
Okay all is well do not worry Shinmera :)
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<jcowan>
basically the CL subproject of the Interlisp effort means upgrading its CL to ANSI
<jcowan>
it is very worthwhile, because it means extending the benefits of the Interlisp IDE to Common Lisp programmers as well.
<jcowan>
imho
<jcowan>
I'd say the first thing is to try the test suite and find out just what fails.
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<jcowan>
The existing implementation is CLtL1, plus we have Xarox Common Loops, a direct ancestor of CLOS, plus some other stuff.
<phoe>
test suite - so, like, ANSI-TEST?
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<phantomics>
Has anyone around used Croatoan? Trying to figure out how to specify specific numbered terminal colors to use for text rather than keywords like :red and :blue, also add-string works fine but add-char seems to just produce blank space
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<mfiano>
Is there a more appropriate alexandria:map-* function or something else that will make this code a little nicer, instead of manually flipped the list in the lambda to get :XYZ first in the result lists too? https://gist.github.com/mfiano/ab6f86019afc1345718c96e0d54ec9a7
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<mfiano>
If it wasn't obvious, I want a list of all (foo :xyz) and (:xyz foo) pairs
<clos-encounters>
its clearer to me anyway, but I'm a loop junkie
<mfiano>
Thanks. I suppose it is cleared because you do not need a nested LOOP, nor a slow APPEND keyword for my example.
<mfiano>
clearer*
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<phantomics>
Turns out I needed to use (croatoan:add-wide-char-utf-8) to add UTF-8 characters
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<lisp123>
Anyone have a pdf of the Concrete Syntax Tree manual or can help me with a query:
<Bike>
what's the query?
<lisp123>
Can I use it to get a list of the calling forms of a given form (e.g. if I have (+ 3 (+ 4 (+ 5 5))), from (+ 5 5) I would like to get access to (+ 4 ..) and (+ 3 ..)
<lisp123>
I was wondering if I could piggyback it for a portable ParEdit
<lisp123>
So if I supply a point in the file, I get the form that contains that point and then any calling forms
<Bike>
CSTs do not have links to CSTs containing them. a CST is basically just an object plus a source location.
<lisp123>
Okay, so I can't traverse the tree?
<Bike>
something like what you describe could maybe be done by keeping a database of CSTs including some source location
<Bike>
you can traverse the tree downward
<lisp123>
Yes, that's what I was thinking
<lisp123>
Like does every inner form have associated information on its source location?
<lisp123>
If I have that, I can figure out the calling forms
<Bike>
yes. try (cst:cst-from-expression '(a b c)), and the you can do (cst:first *) to get an atom cst, or (cst:rest *) to get the CST for (B C)
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<lisp123>
Thanks! Trying it out now
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<citizenandrew>
mfiano: I use sbcl hash tables multithreaded all the time... :synchronized t and all works well. Lispworks has thread safe hash tables by default. I don't know about other impls, but maybe a trivial-thread-safe-hash-table library needs to happen?
<Josh_2>
Not enough parens, how am I supposed to write macros with that edgar-rft ?
<Josh_2>
citizenandrew: hello, thank you for your work on dexador :D
<mfiano>
citizenandrew: In my experience with the use cases I have, synchronizing hash tables causes much too much thread contention.
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<citizenandrew>
mfiano: as I understood your case here, it was all readers, which would not need synchronized access... but sure, if you this is super critical section of code, the sbcl generic hash table won't be a good choice (they are not necessarily optimized for all use cases).
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<lisp123_>
bike: You there?
<Bike>
Hello.
<lisp123_>
(cst:source #<CONCRETE-SYNTAX-TREE:CONS-CST raw: ((QUOTE SWANK)) 821071519B>) returns nil whilst (cst:source #<CONCRETE-SYNTAX-TREE:CONS-CST raw: (QUOTE SWANK) 821071E1E3>) returns a value
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<lisp123_>
So I need to make sure I get down to the individual forms yes to get a source?
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<Bike>
yeah, i think the cst reader doesn't assign sources to cdrs of lists
<lisp123_>
Got it, thanks. Also do you remember what "(663 . 669)" means as a source?
<Bike>
i don't usually use the default source locations, but i would guess those are file positions
<Bike>
a start and end
<lisp123_>
Its strange because (QUOTE SWANK) is more than six characters, but I recall it worked correctly before, so need to revisit how it works
<lisp123_>
Do you have alternative approach?
<Bike>
alternative approach to what?
<lisp123_>
To source locations
<Bike>
yeah, clasp has its own source location objects.
<jcowan>
phoe: Yes. It might need some tweaking to load at all.
<lisp123_>
Thanks, I had a look at my old code just now and it suggested the same
<lisp123_>
AH so basically in the source code I had 'swank -> CST shows it as (quote swank), but the actual source version is 6 characters
<lisp123_>
Which makes sense
<Bike>
oh. yeah, there you go.
<lisp123_>
I wonder if it is too computationally intensive to re-read an entire lisp file at each keystroke..
<lisp123_>
(noting that lisp files aren't really that long in the grand scheme of things)...because if that inefficient approach works, it will be very easy to build a sexp navigation tool out of CST / Eclector
<lisp123_>
Is there a way to suppress errors when reading through Eclector?
<Bike>
pretty sure it respects *read-suppress*
<Bike>
or do you mean something else
<Bike>
maybe it has its own read-suppress...
<Bike>
nope, should just be cl:*read-suppress*
<lisp123_>
Great, thanks - hopefully that works
<lisp123_>
I got an error saying "SB-INTROSPECT" package not found or something like that when reading (when not in SBCL),basically want to avoid any read errors for partially complete forms
<Bike>
some kinds of errors can't be suppressed, like unknown reader macros, but packages missing should be fine
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<lisp123_>
Cool thanks! I will start with that
<scymtym>
(handler-bind ((RELEVANT-ERROR #'eclector.reader:recover)) (eclector.reader:read …)) is more comprehensive
<lisp123_>
scymtym: Thanks for that, I'll use that
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