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<moon-child>
Alfr: 'every partition of the set corresponds to one such relation' I think the existence of sets kinda implies that you already have at least one equivalence relation :P
<moon-child>
math provides such a relation, but it only works on sets (not conses, symbols, strings, ...)
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<madnificent>
nij-: I wrote sexml ages ago. It takes in a DTD and spits out forms.
<madnificent>
nij-: It's been used in the wild since it was written but its use will likely be discontinued.
<madnificent>
I strongly suspect it could also spit out helpers to allow writing the SXML syntax.
<luis>
fe
<madnificent>
It uses context oriented programming at compiletime IIRC, so I guess you could advise it to create different things.
<phoe>
luis: how about cu?
<madnificent>
o7 phoe
<luis>
fe[nl]ix: let me update the docs first
<luis>
phoe: typing Stelian's nickname on a phone is hard enough without a toddler moving about :D
<phoe>
:D
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<nij->
madnificent: Thanks for sharing. Does it format the output automatically? Or just plain s-expressions?
<madnificent>
nij-: It's basically a thing to generate functions from a DTD so that it's easier to write HTML. It should generate documentation if slime is available (iirc). So you should get hints on what input is allowed.
<madnificent>
But then HTML5 came along and they decided that the lessons we learned shifting away from SGML were for losers and that web devs wouldn't understand simple structure anyways so it's not XML-based anymore.
<moon-child>
html5 is the most bizarre shit I have ever heard of
<moon-child>
'let's make a standard except it's not actually a standard'
<madnificent>
<continued-rant>So we claim that editors should complete any symbol and it's okay to have a myriad of APIs that change whenever with bots that keep our dependencies up to date because it's such a mess, but it's absolutely impossible for an editor to insert a closing term or create a well-formed attribute, that would be far too complex</continued-rant>
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<madnificent>
moon-child: Welcome to the undermining of the W3C. For the shit it gets, it has done an amazing job at pushing our world forward. I'm hoping we can support a bunch of their later efforts to get data back in the hands of people.
<moon-child>
ehhhhh??~
<madnificent>
The WHATWG was created to create HTML5 because the W3C didn't accept changes fast enough. They didn't see a future in xhtml but rather wanted a more free-forming structure where it would be easier to get things accepted.
<moon-child>
I'm not allowed to hate whatwg and w3c both?
<madnificent>
moon-child: You are! But I think the hate for the W3C is largely steered by other interests.
<madnificent>
The W3C has a structure in place where you can participate as an entity. You know the cost. It gives you single vote. If you're big, you'll pay more, but you don't get more voting rights. That's been a huge thorn in the eyes of some. I think it's a sensible structure.
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<madnificent>
Everyone interprets what they see based on what they want to see, myself included.
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<citizenajb>
Anyone interested in working on a non-FFI Common Lisp QUIC + HTTP/3 implementation? It's a nice big task, but I feel like it helps keep Common Lisp relevant. An FFI version would be OK too, but if all we do is FFI I think we miss opportunities to improve our standard components, like usocket, etc.
<madnificent>
The discussion on equality has shaped my thinking a littly bit. Thank you. It has also slightly changed my reading of provided methods. The argument to concatenate has received a different place in my head.
<phoe>
citizenajb: practical question - what issue is there with having a non-CL proxy running between CL and HTTP clients, converting HTTP2 to QUIC?
<beach>
citizenajb: Great initiative. This is not my domain of expertise, and I am busy with other stuff, but i hope you will get lots of help.
<madnificent>
citizenajb: I'm not up for the task. I've enjoyed writing an http1.1 implementation at some point but I doubt time will permit from my end. So far we're running Hunchentoot behind a few other services, one being nginx.
<phoe>
like, client → quic → proxy → http2 → CL
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<madnificent>
phoe: Connection handshake is substantially longer. Though with a proxy we keep the TCP connections open longer to mitigate that.
<citizenajb>
phoe: If the proxy is very local (so that the improvements that QUIC aims at are not relevant) I think that would work OK --- can you point me at an HTTP/3 to HTTP/2 proxy? There is a Common Lisp HTTP/2 server (I think I saw one on github while wandering around)?
<madnificent>
phoe: given a different transport layer in http/3, I would expect widely different performance characteristics though. Especially on crowded networks.
<madnificent>
citizenajb: nginx will accept HTTP/3. If it forwards to a backend it negotiates with the server what protocol it should use there.
<citizenajb>
beach: it is not my domain of expertise either --- but because it would be a hobby project the learning of new things is an acceptable part of the project.
<madnificent>
I'm not sure how that works together with the push updates in http/2 and http/3. I suspect subtle incompatibilities but I don't know.
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<beach>
citizenajb: Sounds good to me.
<phoe>
citizenajb: haproxy and nginx have some early support for quic
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<citizenajb>
madnificent: OK, so there is an extant solution to support Common Lisp as a web server and accept HTTP/3 through proxying, but how about as a client? Eventually HTTP/1.1 will become stone age technology and will help sink Common Lisp with its weight. People choose programming languages for all sorts of reasons, and one major one is "supports 'modern' stuff"
<phoe>
citizenajb: the general idea is that libraries only happen when somebody makes them, and people usually make them if they need them - a quic client and/or server won't be an exception
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<madnificent>
citizenajb: ah, I only assumed server library. True. I wouldn't expect it to stick with HTTP/3 in the coming years though. We let backwards compatibility loose in HTTP/2 and 6 years later there's already a new very disruptive kit around the block. Given how easy it is to implement, perhaps HTTP1.1 will stick around longer than HTTP/3! XD I generally agree and would love an HTTP/3 implementation though.
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<madnificent>
citizenajb: I think it could be a fun project to pursue!
<citizenajb>
madnificent: I think so too, obviously! I just remember how much fun it was when I was younger to work with other people on open source stuff. Now that I'm old and use Common Lisp all day at work I kind of dropped out of the "programming for fun" camp.
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<semz>
"Eventually HTTP/1.1 will become stone age technology and will help sink Common Lisp with its weight." I don't see this at all, honestly.
<semz>
Not that I'm discouraging anyone from writing support for HTTP/[23].
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<random-nick>
wouldn't implementing http/3 just be a matter of implementing quic (which is called a transport layer protocol but actually just uses UDP) and then implementing http/3 on top of it?
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<random-nick>
I don't see why would you have to change things like usocket
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<citizenajb>
random-nick: usocket isn't perfect. It misses a few features, like auto-close on stream finalization, etc. I'm pretty sure there is some excess copying compared with some of the direct interfaces, but I haven't looked at it in a long time. Nothing specific to UDP or QUIC. Just the more varied users of a library, generally the better something is...
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<jeosol>
Good morning all!
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<rotateq>
heyy jeosol :)
<jeosol>
rotateq: I am ok
<rotateq>
good
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<sm2n>
does anyone know why there is #+ecl stuff in the sbcl backend file for usocket?
<sm2n>
it appears that the ecl backend file depends on the sbcl one
<sm2n>
But, I don't understand why there is ecl exclusive stuff in the sbcl file
<rotateq>
so metabootstrapping :D
<rotateq>
well, maybe ask in #sbcl or #ecl
<Xach>
sm2n: ecl's socket system is called "sb-bsd-sockets"
<Xach>
oops. i don't know if that is applicable.
<jackdaniel>
right, ecl copied api from sbcl for reasons one would call pragmatic
<jackdaniel>
sbcl added some stuff later, so they are no 100% compatible
<jackdaniel>
sb-bsd-sockets is a nickname for the package sockets (or the other way around :)
<sm2n>
oh, I see, I guess it would have to be in the same file because called functions need to be in the same compilation unit or prior
<sm2n>
or not? I guess it's just a style thing
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<jackdaniel>
I guess that api is still similar enough that it is not worth to duplicate code
<madnificent>
sm2n: You use a package in multiple files, extending its content.
<madnificent>
sm2n: IIUC, a package is a symbol space. It's not a container of functions and variables, but rather a set of labels to which functions and variables can be attached.
<sm2n>
Yes, I understand how packages work
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<sm2n>
My initial confusion was why there was a #+(or mkcl (and ecl (not ecl-bytecmp))) in sbcl.lisp
<jackdaniel>
(what was exactly the point of mimicing the api)
<sm2n>
i.e code that does not apply to sbcl at all
<sm2n>
?
<jackdaniel>
I was referring to my previosu statement
<madnificent>
sm2n: yes, I understood that question. it seemed you were not 100% sure on packages above. redundant info from my end :)
<sm2n>
oh
<jackdaniel>
to rephrase: "the point of mimicing the api was to make it easy enough to reuse code written for sbcl" - at least that's how I imagine the rationale of the implementer
<sm2n>
Yes, that makes sense.
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<lisp123>
Is there a way to get the last character of a string without traversing it to get its LENGTH?
<sm2n>
Yes
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<sm2n>
strings are vectors, and hence have O(1) random access
<sm2n>
(and also length)
<sm2n>
so (length s) on a string does not traverse it
<lisp123>
Gotcha. Is there any way to do it without LENGTH?
<Bike>
not really. why do you want to do it without length?
<Bike>
you could use array-dimension, but that's the same thing
<lisp123>
Just curious (well before it was because of the traversal non-issue, but now just curious :-)
<semz>
You probably need some length-related special case anyway; after all, what is the last character of a length zero string?
<lisp123>
ehhh thanks for reminding me, I need to fix that
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<jackdaniel>
the last character of "string" is g ;)
<lisp123>
jackdaniel: :D
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<etimmons>
jeosol: cl-tar can now create a tar file directly from the file system (preserving links and most metadata), and transparently compress it.
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<semz>
If I define (setf foo), does it have to return the value it stores?
<semz>
or is that guaranteed to happen on the setf side
<rotateq>
bollu: it's just for additional inheritance I might say
<bollu>
rotateq where is the data of an instruction stored? I presume the instruction needs to store the two operands somewhere. Where does it do that?
<rotateq>
bollu: it's for when define certain methods, there has nothing like you mean to be stored in the beginning
<rotateq>
like with commutative-mixin below
<lisp123>
rotateq: Nice answer, that explains it well :)
<rotateq>
lisp123: really? or sarcasm? ^^
<lisp123>
rotateq: It is :) I was trying to explain in #lisp but failing
<bollu>
rotateq in which case, can you point me to where the actual instruction set is.. defined? Like, I understand that you're declaring that add is commutative. But you must have a representation of an add instruction?
<bollu>
somewhere in the compiler?
<rotateq>
no I'm not deep into the SICL project at all and would say it's nothing for starting out
<bollu>
hmm
<bollu>
what is good code to read while starting out
<rotateq>
first you should learn some things and then many others come by
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<bollu>
what do you mean
<rotateq>
but right, SICL has a really good style and thought in it
<rotateq>
bollu: you said yourself you're a newbie
<bollu>
rotateq I am indeed. I like to learn things by reading good code and finding out what I don't know
<bollu>
lisp123 neat, thanks for the textbook link!
<rotateq>
yes lisp123, a good book, but may also be a bit too advanced for now
<rotateq>
bollu: you won't come far by just guessing
<rotateq>
there's the Practical Common Lisp book for example
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<bollu>
rotateq I know scheme and haskell, if that helps
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<bollu>
rotateq I'm trying to figure out the delta, which is the object system, as far as I can tell
<rotateq>
yes Haskell was also most of my background before and some other stuff
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<bollu>
`(assert (equal (expr->eval 1 nil) 1))` I'm sprinkling my toplevel with asserts like these, while I REPL-based develop. How does one actually translate their repl based tests into "real" tests
<rotateq>
with a function that runs at a certain time I would say
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<yottabyte>
has anyone here done any advent of code 2021?
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<raeda>
I checked the input file in your github repo, and they're different
<yottabyte>
I think this input is different for everyone though
<yottabyte>
it's based on your login
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<yottabyte>
running my code against your input, do you get the right answer for yourself?
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<raeda>
Whelp, I'm confused since your code works fine on my input
<yottabyte>
so for my input, my code gives me: 3029094. can you tell me if this is the number you get running my input (from my GitHub) on your solution?
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<raeda>
No, but your code's output matches mine. I'll try restarting my CL image and recompiling
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<raeda>
yottabyte: Your *read-base* isn't set to anything weird, is it?
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<raeda>
On line 8, I would write (loop for index from 0 below (length line) ... )
<yottabyte>
*read-base* is 10
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<raeda>
`for index from 0 to (1- ...)` is the same as `for index from 0 below ...`, and you can get the line length directly without parsing then printing
<_death>
yottabyte: if you have a line like "0123", note that (write-to-string (parse-integer line)) => "123"
<yottabyte>
that's gotta be the problem. I did loop for index from 0 below (1- (length line)) and then I got the right answer
<yottabyte>
I had to subtract 1 from the length. idk if there's a better way
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<yottabyte>
maybe a regex split on the length
<_death>
with BELOW you don't need to subtract.. in your code you're using TO.. but that doesn't have to do with what I said
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<yottabyte>
I have to subtract because it's including non 0 or 1 characters (the new-line character at the end of the line, I imagine)
<yottabyte>
maybe I can do something with "for line = (read-line stream nil)" to only read what I want to read
<_death>
instead of guessing, you can debug
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<raeda>
yottabyte: Yay! Congrats!
<raeda>
yottabyte: Another piece of advice: your binary-to-decimal function is the same as (parse-integer binary-string :radix 2)