sorear changed the topic of #riscv to: RISC-V instruction set architecture | https://riscv.org | Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/riscv
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* muurkha meows
<muurkha> sorear: yeah, I didn't mean the 6502 would be a good DSP, quite the contrary
<muurkha> the reason for a 6502 is that you can get a whole CPU with sort of reasonable cycle efficiency into 3000 transistors
<sorear> kind of fudging the numbers by not counting memory
<muurkha> (as long as you have enough fast RAM backing it up, and 3000 transistors of 6T SRAM is only 500 bits, not even enough for a whole 6502 zero page)
<muurkha> heh, yeah
<muurkha> a few years back I sketched out a simple minimal 12-bit stack CPU, and one of the things that surprised me about the exercise was that going bit-serial only cut it from 1000 NANDs down to 600 or so. I was expecting a bigger improvement in size for the order-of-magnitude reduction in speed
<muurkha> but that's about 6502-sized
<muurkha> (and, again, fudging by not counting memory)
<sorear> the 6502 was severely pin constrained, not just transistor constrained, whatever you're doing now with on-chip memory you can probably make it twice as fast by going harvard
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<muurkha> true
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<dh`> I've often wondered what a system made up of a few thousand 6502s would be like to use
<enthusi> slow :)
<enthusi> but there was that propeller SoC with a many-small-units aproach a few years back?
<enthusi> I coded ALOT of 6502 assembler and which I enjoy the ISAs structure alot, it is not very well suited for data-exchange.
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<gordonDrogon> and here am I looking to replace some 6502 systems with RISC-V ;-)
<sorear> you'd clearly need support chip(s) of some kind, and the programming model depends a bit on exactly what those support chips are
<gordonDrogon> for my thing? not really - it's (now) more a retro software hobby thing. he highest level language is bcpl. I just need a serial port although video would be nice at some point ...
<gordonDrogon> support chips are the bane of the "retro new" world though.
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<sorear> "I've often wondered what a system made up of a few thousand 6502s would be like to use"
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<muurkha> gordonDrogon: oh?
<muurkha> sorear: yeah, you can't really just hook up two 6502s to shared address and data buses
<sorear> 4320x might be fun since those *did* have a bus arbiter
<muurkha> not familiar
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<RNeese> hey guys
<jemarch> hola
<sorear> o/
<RNeese> so I got the new starfive visionfive but waiting on a fix for it
<RNeese> nice layout
<RNeese> the usb hub chip did not get its rom flashed to it
<RNeese> so waiting on a replacement chip
<RNeese> then I hope to have a debian img on it soon
<muurkha> cool!
<RNeese> hard part will be the bl/firmware file
<RNeese> once I have that working it will be ok
<RNeese> as debian does not have grub/grub2 yet in pkgs so it has to be made to boot like the beaglev without grub
<RNeese> they have the fedora running on it but its slow and bloated on boot
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<Esmil> RNeese: this is what I use to run /efi/boot/bootriscv64.efi immediately: https://github.com/esmil/u-boot/commits/Fedora_JH7100_upstream_devel
<Esmil> ..and then my /efi/boot/bootriscv64.efi is systemd-boot rather than grub since it just creates a menu to choose which (efi-enabled) kernel to load
<Esmil> ..and doesn't implement filesystems etc.
<Esmil> and I can just press Q to exit to the grub console
<RNeese> ok
<Esmil> *exit to the u-boot console of course
<RNeese> have to figure how to add it to debian build
<RNeese> I need to get a img going
<Esmil> No, on the starlight/visionfive u-boot is in spi flash, so you need to update that
<RNeese> ok
<RNeese> currently we dont have a working build on debian yet . but reading
<RNeese> they changed things from what beaglev was to this and its making me relearn
<Esmil> what did they change?
<RNeese> no efi on the beaglev
<RNeese> efi is a change
<Esmil> yes, you just need to update to the latest u-boot
<Esmil> that should work the same on the beaglev and visionfive
<Esmil> it's just that your visionfive just shipped with a newer u-boot
<RNeese> there is no visionfive in the build system
<Esmil> which build system?
<RNeese> that I find other then what the did for fedora
<RNeese> buildroot
<Esmil> no, the visionfive board isn't out yet, so it would be surprising if someone added it to buildroot already
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<RNeese> I have started but I have to get some changes goign
<RNeese> the hashes need changing
<RNeese> but ok
<RNeese> I am relearning what I was not taught in beaglev
<RNeese> I have a visionfive I am working on now
<RNeese> I have 1 of the dev boards
<RNeese> thats why I am trying to get it working with my current working img
<Esmil> well, the kernel in the visionfive(-5.15.y) branches at github.com/starfive-tech/linux is working. you just need to use the jh7100-starfive-visionfive-v1.dtb device tree
<RNeese> ok
<RNeese> then get the blfixed for it
<Esmil> i don't know what the blfixed is
<RNeese> the bootl loader
<RNeese> ok brb door
<RNeese> but I will get a kernel file
<Esmil> as I said. the bootloader in their u-boot repo should work perfectly fine. that's the one i forked at added my hack to above
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<RNeese> ok
<RNeese> police dept going door to door for toys for tots program
<gordonDrogon> muurkha, actually you can hook up 2 x 6502 to the same bus/memory and get them working - the 6502 only accesses ram,etc. on half the clock leaving the other half free - in the day this was used for video...
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<muurkha> oh really? I didn't realize that!
<muurkha> I thought it asserted stuff on the address bus all the time, just that half the time it didn't care what came back
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<gordonDrogon> I think the early computers that did that used the nmos 6502 which didn't tristate the busses so the apple II, etc. had separate tristate buffers.
<gordonDrogon> however going more OT, but winding back a bit, I worked for a company who put what was essentially 128 6809's on the same die although they made them 32-bit versions - it was an early GPU type system later turned into a super computer acellerator sort of thing. This was about 20 years back.
<gordonDrogon> so smallish cpus, fast internal buses and magic software...
<sorear> the manycore dream never dies, does it
<gordonDrogon> just the software that then becomes the issue ...
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<drmpeg> I'll say that 99 and 44/100 percent of Parallella boards are in a closet gathering dust.
<gordonDrogon> hm. that's a new one to me. intersting, but ..
<drmpeg> Just a comment to "the manycore dream never dies, does it"
<sorear> gordonDrogon: parallela?
<gordonDrogon> sorear, yes - although a lot of these little board seem to have passed me by in recent years.
<sorear> (if you did into that at all, be aware that "Epiphany-V" is entirely unrelated to risc-v)
<sorear> *dig into
<gordonDrogon> oh, and... (for LoL's): behold! https://unicorn.drogon.net/cs2.256.gif 300 boards of dual-core sparcs. The boxes are 2m high. c1992 ...
<gordonDrogon> I worked for a supercomputer company back then - always the same problem: I have this 30 year old FORTRAN program - make it go faster and we'll buy your system ...
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<sorear> decomposing the 30 year old FORTRAN program into pieces which can run on 128 6809s while minimizing NoC traffic is always the challenge
<muurkha> 128 6809s, wow
<muurkha> sorear: I think the manycore dream has become reality in the form of GPUs
<gordonDrogon> and GPUs are for the most part very application specific.
<gordonDrogon> although leveraging them now for certian compute/vector operations is a thing..
<muurkha> GPUs are ... not very application specific
<gordonDrogon> it's all a blur now - we did code in the i860 all those years ago which (AIUI) was more or less turned into the MMX, etc. instructions in later Pentiums.
<muurkha> I mean the whole deep learning revolution was running on GPUs before TPUs were created
<sorear> I think the real question is how active the programmer is in orchestrating data movement through physical space, as opposed to mere addresses
<muurkha> similarly lots of cryptocurrency mining has been done on GPUs, to the point that gamers are whining up a storm about "scalping"
<sorear> which has happened to _some extent_ on GPUs but I don't have a sense of how rich the models are and how often they're used
<muurkha> apparently the actual majority of GPUs sold are going to coin mining, though it's no longer profitable for the most popular coins due to ASIC mining
<gordonDrogon> I've more or less left that world behind - I just want to play with a nice cpu and some ram ;-)
<muurkha> applications using OpenCL include Blender, OpenCV, and Octave, and there's at least one OpenCL implementation of BLAS
<muurkha> also I've worked with people using GPUs for software-defined radio and image compression
<muurkha> Hashcat is the standard password cracking tool
<gordonDrogon> the trick to solving the 30-year old FORTRAN was to see if they used standard librarliesl ike BLAS/ Linpack, etc. then implement those on our hardware then re-link their code and hope for the best...
<muurkha> heh
<muurkha> that was before OpenMP?
<gordonDrogon> late 80's/early 90's ..
<gordonDrogon> before open almost anything.
<muurkha> yeah
<muurkha> well, nowadays a lot of stuff is written in Octave (or MATLAB anyway) or TensorFlow so you can get a GPU speedup
<muurkha> so, that's why I don't think GPUs are very application-specific. just a pain is all
* gordonDrogon nods.
<muurkha> also, R, and Numpy via CuPy
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