06:36 <abu[7]> Something around https://v8.dev/blog/emscripten-llvm-wasm

09:26 <pablo_escoberg> Yeah, I looked into that.  The problem is that WASM doesn't allow DOM access, which is the whole point.  I also tried several other approaches, and the performance hit was at least an order of magnitude.  I guess I'll wait until browsers expose the DOM to WASM apps, and just use JS until then :(

09:29 <abu[7]> Emscripten seems to target JS though

09:30 <abu[7]> Not sure if this project is still alive

09:42 <abu[7]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emscripten says "converting LLVM bytecode to JavaScript"

10:42 <pablo_escoberg> I'll look into it some more.  ISTR looking at the web site for emscripten and finding that it deprecated JS for WASM, but I'll make sure.

10:43 <abu[7]> Confusing indeed

10:45 <pablo_escoberg> Yeah, looks like they dropped JS support once WASM matured a bit.  Sadly, it hasn't quite matured to the point where it can integrate the DOM.  My guess is that it's a security nightmare.

10:47 <pablo_escoberg> but looks like it's a matter of time.  Once they integrate WASM with the DOM, it should just be a matter of compiling picolisp to WASM, hooking into the DOM and Window objects (and maybe fetch separately) and we can do frontend in pil.  Very much looking forward to it.

10:48 <abu[7]> oku

10:48 <abu[7]> ok

10:53 <beneroth> pablo_escoberg, yeah I also think WASM + DOM is a security nightmare. Just like Adobe Flash was.

10:53 <beneroth> and current usage of WASM in the wild is also predominantly for malicious stuff.

10:54 <beneroth> JS is a crutch and changing that for practical use in webdev would be a really nice improvement... but for security web scripting should not be turing complete.

11:38 <abu[7]> Over all the years I disliked the idea of client-side programming. I always tried to put as much application logic as possible onto the server side, and I still think it is the *right* way to go

13:16 <beneroth> yeah I feel the same. It just feels so wasteful to me, transferring many MBs of JS-libraries and in the end only a very small part is used.

13:18 <beneroth> but in practice the server-side differentiation of clients (UserAgent) was done very poorly for a time (90s + very early 00s), so now "Mozilla" is part of every user-agent string out there.. and it's way too long anyway. Sent with every HTTP request.

13:19 <beneroth> also in the last 10+ years client side programming became favored because it apparently it was easier to handle all kind of different devices and screen sizes instead of properly using HTTP headers on both clients and servers across many different vendors...