klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<geist> Bitweasil: i hvae my beefs with it, but it has some advantages in the solution space its in
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<adder> What chip should I get to play with? Ideally not raspberry pi.
<heat_> your computer
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<Mutabah> Maybe a RISCV one?
<heat_> x86 works well, is well known and you can easily virtualize it
<heat_> if virtualized it'll be miles faster than whatever SoC
<heat_> aren't all decent riscv ones still prohibitively expensive?
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<adder> How expensive?
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<adder> I guess I have enough x86's. And also a couple pi's. I'm more looking for something dirt cheap and stupidly simple for projects unrelated to kernel programming.
<Mutabah> What sort of projects?
<Mutabah> if it's hardware, an arduino or clone would work
<adder> I'm not sure yet. Think sensors for example.
<Mutabah> The local eletronics shop I go to has an Arduino Uno clone for $35AU
<Mutabah> and that's with retail markup
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<adder> That seems alright. I'll see if I can find that here.
<Mutabah> Ardinos are not very powerful, but they're common as can be - and have interfaces for almost anything you'd want
<adder> I'm not sure, but I found Arduino Uno for much lower than that.
<adder> And a clone?
<Mutabah> Wouldn't be surprised at all
<Mutabah> I go to this store becuase it's convinient
<bslsk05> ​www.digistore.rs: Arduino Uno R3 5V Digistore web shop (Konekt doo)
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<zid> It's monday by now surely
<zid> oh shit, akira toriyama died
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<vdamewood> Holy fuck.
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<kof673> > elegance is subjective moon-child wins conway's law crow chat today :D > for that is the black sail with the which the Ship of Theseus came back victorious lol "and a crow, floating in a black sea" "not found on the earth of the living" -- job that was the old lady philosophy, she only appears wrapped in a most wretched, vile, sordid matter/manner lol
<kof673> not arguing anything but conway's law lol
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<klange> sent chase an email about the phpBB session issue; given the wiki reports users are visiting from cloudflare's IPs, I suspect Apache hasn't been configured correctly to handle Cloudflare's headers and restore original client IPs.
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<kof673> > Canting arms of Fox, Baron Holland: Ermine, on a chevron azure three fox's heads i'd just put the fox as a basilisk variant :D that...and woods... > pure comedic surrealism "all surrealist art is alchemical art" :D
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<Ermine> kof673: ?
<kof673> someone brought up "what does the fox say" song sorry lol lucky guess :D little fox Coordinates: Sky map 20^h that works splendidly because about directly opposite gemini lol
<kof673> i could not resist lol
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<ebrasca> How tod arithmetic when dealing with TCP/IP serial numbers?
<heat_> what do you mean
<heat_> (i assume you're talking about tcp sequence numbers)
<ebrasca> Yes , how todo the operations like > or <
<ebrasca> ?
<ebrasca> I know how todo a <= b <= c but no idea how todo a < b or a > b.
<ebrasca> heat_: Do I make sense?
<heat_> kinda
<heat_> basically you want ((int32_t)(a) - (b)) < 0 for a < b, for a > b you just do > 0
<heat_> to care for wraparound
<nortti> why the cast of a to int32_t?
<heat_> oops
<heat_> ((int32_t)((a) - (b)) < 0)
<ebrasca> What is int32_t ?
<heat_> a 32-bit signed integer as in C99 stdint.h
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<zid> heat_, nikolapdp won't tell me who his hot date is with
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<gorgonical> a steaming bowl (?) of sarma is his hot date
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<bslsk05> ​git.kernel.org: x86/speculation/l1tf: Protect swap entries against L1TF - kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git - Linux kernel source tree
<heat_> x86 is so broken
<zid> speculative execution much harder than it was given credit for in the early 00s*
<zid> It's a bit like how suddenly flash exploits were a thing
<zid> because people started caring about using flash on the web
<zid> and nobody at macromedia wrote it in a way where it wouldn't be full of exploits
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<winwin_> i would like to inform you all that if you made a text file, with just "shit" and a newline after that, then you made a piece of windows XP and can be considered, an OS dev.
* geist yawns
<gog> windows XP was pretty good actually
* geist pets the gog
* gog prr
<mjg> OH
<gog> oh hi mjg
<mjg> i agree xp was great for home users
<mjg> after certain turmoil
<mjg> it mostly worked fine
<heat_> is this mjg not shitting on a software project
<bslsk05> ​'WE'RE GONNA BE TALKING ABOUT WINDOWS XP' by NewmanVisual (00:00:31)
<gog> we're in the post-vista era
<geist> lets enourage it, heat_
<gog> where windows xp was good actually
<heat_> vista was technically much superior to xp
<gog> well yeah UMDF was a good idea
<heat_> it was unstable because everyone was pulling off warcrimes in their drivers
<gog> i liked that my GPU drivers could no longer take down my entire system
<gog> yes
<mjg> if it was written by rust from the get go there would be no reason for umdf
<heat_> mr dave why did you not write windows nt in rust
<heat_> can we rewrite it all in rust? thanks
<netbsduser> mozilla rust
<netbsduser> fearless concurrency
<netbsduser> no garbage collected (leaks = safe)
<geist> they could have written it in BLISS
<netbsduser> not even the slightest dependence on C
<heat_> geist, but ignorance is bliss
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<gog> except the C that the compiler rests atop
<gog> they're talking shit about C in another chan rn
<geist> gasp
<gog> yeah
<gog> i am livid
<heat_> WHAT
<kazinsal> heresy
<heat_> we must equal that shit
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<heat_> C sucks so much fucking ass
<gog> heat wtf
<gog> you backstabbing backstabber
<bslsk05> ​github.com: std: Check for overflow in `str::repeat` by alexcrichton · Pull Request #54399 · rust-lang/rust · GitHub
<geist> heat_ no no
<heat_> PDP-11-ass language doesn't belong in the 21st century
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<kazinsal> you have been sentenced to: three years in the kernighulag
<netbsduser> recently two workbooks describing the architecture of NT antecedent DEC Micah appeared
<geist> printf("heat you %s!\n");
<netbsduser> the code is in a PASCAL-like language and it appears they aped the stylistic conventions for windows C (which looks nothing like anything Kernighan or Ritchie ever wrote in their lives)
<geist> yah in the recent dave cutler interview i think he mentioned a bit about micah
<geist> actually he pointed out that from what he learned from NT micah would have had problems
<geist> or at least there would have been a bottleneck in the way handles worked in micah
<gog> i thought NT was targeting Alpha initially?
<geist> very very initially i think it was i860 and x86
<gog> hm
<geist> alpha came out a few years later
<mjg> i heard it was something other than x86
<mjg> but i don't recall what
<gog> there was a short-lived alpha version tho
<geist> by the time NT was released it was targetting yeah
<mjg> mips maybe?
<heat_> i860?
<geist> i mean during initial development
<geist> like 1988 - release
<geist> yah something like i860, mips, and x86
<netbsduser> the micah handles didn't exist as a per process name space (like unix FDs) but instead a composition of three name spaces (one for each user, one for each job, one for each process)
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<netbsduser> and they were used everywhere
<geist> netbsduser: yeah he mentioned something like in retrospect that was too complicated and the overhead of doing the handle translations would have been an issue
<geist> we stuck to pretty simple handles in Zircon for more or less the same reason
<geist> the translation of handle -> object happens a *lot* so make it simple
<netbsduser> they even had a layered I/O system where each device refers to the next lower layer by a handle which has to undergo resolution
<geist> re-reading the bits on the i860. it was apparently quite weird, and thus unsuccessful
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<geist> hard to find one, kinda like the mythical axp432
<mjg> weid thus unsuccessful?
<mjg> you taking jabs at itanium again?
<gog> itanium was good actually
<heat_> itanium good, everything else bad
<mjg> i run arch on itanium btw
<bslsk05> ​www.ebay.com: INTEL Paragon Supercomputer node with i860 CPU's and 16 Megs of ram @ 50 MHZ | eBay
<heat_> i run RHEL on itanium
<netbsduser> i think the i860 shared an MMU with the 386
<gog> does not ship to iceland
<netbsduser> i'm sure i saw such in the mach sources
<heat_> mjg, willy says he has a whole lot of PARISCs and itanium machines in his garage :v
<mjg> solid
<mjg> why did not pick up maintainership then :thinkingface:
<geist> at some point i looked at parisc, seeing if it would be fun to get ahold of one. back in the 2000s it was so easy to get old workstations since they were just being retired and no one cared to make money
<geist> but alas, iirc it's a) not that documented and b) totally boring
<netbsduser> i have an HP c8000 which i got more to explore HP-UX than PARISC
<mjg> chad osdev, claims an arch is boring
<geist> hmm?
<geist> oh hahah yeah
<geist> well, yeah i mean for all its warts, itanium is *not* boring
<geist> iirc parisc there wasn't anything in particular that stuck out. no weird quirky thing
<geist> about like mips in the boringness
* mjg pets sparc
<kazinsal> itanium is fascinating
<heat_> 64-bit address space
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<heat_> suck it x86_64
<kazinsal> much in the same way that NTSB aviation accident reports are
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<geist> haha, naw i think it has a lot of neat ideas. you just have to separate the real world marketing and performance and complexity failures from the technical ones
<geist> from a software point of view it's pretty fascinating
<geist> mjg: sparc at least has some interesting mmu and the register window
<mjg> as i already said, if i was a millionaire and did not have to do squat, i would totally get a sun e10k
<mjg> and port stuff to it
<mjg> for lulzies
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<heat_> would you use solaris
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<sham1> SOLARIS SOLARIS SOLARIS SOLARIS
<sham1> SUN SUN SUN SUN SUN
<sham1> Run Java on a Solaris machine and reach enlightenment that way
<sham1> Java on Solaris on a SPARC
<heat_> over nfs
<sham1> No. ZFS
<geist> i run lots of stuff over nfs
<geist> if you have a fast nfs server it's pretty good experience
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<bslsk05> ​www.theregister.com: Spending Microsoft money on a red Corvette • The Register
<geist> a little red corvette? https://youtu.be/v0KpfrJE4zw
<bslsk05> ​'Prince - Little Red Corvette (Official Music Video)' by Prince (00:03:09)
<zid> GeDaMo that isn't a puzzle game link
<bslsk05> ​'Rush - Red Barchetta (Visualizer)' by RushVEVO (00:06:10)
<heat_> geist, how does consistency over nfs work? it always puzzles me
<bslsk05> ​www.chiark.greenend.org.uk: Simon Tatham's Portable Puzzle Collection
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<heat_> i'd like to implement nfs one of these days, but there's way too much dark magic in that shit
<heat_> for semi-sane semantics at least
<geist> for v3 i think its outside of the base protocol, and i think that's what the RPC file lock stuff is for
<geist> but it also means you aren't really generally allowed to cache that much locally per client
<geist> but also means v3 is basically stateless, whcih is super cool
<geist> v4 goes much more towards a stateful op-lock style design, like samba
<geist> and in that case yeah the client can request exclusivity and get it taken away, etc
<geist> v3 is very simple, i fiddled with it once for newos years ago and it was very straightforward. doesn't even need TCP
<geist> v4 is always *way* more performant because of the local caching capability
<heat_> yeah
<heat_> tbf i think v3 nfs clients still cached stuff locally
<zid> GeDaMo: Like I haven't played simon's puzzles to death
<heat_> i know linux plays weird games with inodes' i_version
<geist> stats of files iirc was something you could locally cache for some period of time (in the seconds) and then refect
<geist> refetch
* zid plays some tracks anway
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<bslsk05> ​'Oh, I'm die. Thank you forever.' by dloow (00:00:34)
<zid> oops
<bslsk05> ​www.chiark.greenend.org.uk: Tracks, from Simon Tatham's Portable Puzzle Collection
<zid> took me like 2mins
<geist> but anyway i have a fairly fast NFS server (synology nas) over 10gbe at home and i frequently do stuff like build source off it
<geist> git clones, etc
<geist> i put most of my main source on the NFS server and it's pretty fast
<bslsk05> ​www.nytimes.com: Tiles - The New York Times - The New York Times
<geist> interestingly i think the 10gbe made a noticable difference with respect to what is perceived latency of ops (git update, etc)
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<geist> even if it's not transferring more than 1gbe, i guess the actual time to transfer the data is 1/10th so the latency goes down to transfer stats back and forth
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<geist> i didn't expect that when i upgraded to a 10gbe link, i thought it'd just generally help with transferring large files faster
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<heat_> yeah
<heat_> i'd guess locally the latency is pretty small so any bandwidth wins are significant
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<heat_> a full inode stat isn't small either
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<zid> I'd be quite happy if there were a flag to cache all inodes on an fs
<heat_> that's doable, but why?
<zid> rather than having it compete with firefox's tabbed out shit or whatever
<zid> I'm more likely to do a find / than I am check that tab, generally
<heat_> find / doesn't need to check the full inode
<zid> it does if you pass it the good kush
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<zid> heat_: Can you make sys_open occasionally return an advert for cerveza cristal?
<heat_> yes
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<heat_> ok i have around 3886449 inodes in my filesystem, if i had them all cached (and they were all ext4 inodes) i'd have around 4GB stuck in inode structs
<zid> 4GB is bigger than my filesystem
<zid> heat living in 2024
<zid> (I did say I'd like it as a flag, on a specific fs)
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<Mondenkind> heat_: that's not a lot of gb
<heat_> it's a relatively small filesystem
<heat_> and 4G is definitely not negligible
<zid> CERVEZA CRISTAL
<zid> sorry, write() injection
<clever> zid: its spreading further, containment has been breached! lol
<bslsk05> ​The Cerveza Crystal mind virus has fully taken root. Innocuous tasks like opening the microwave are followed by a full audio-visual hallucination of a beer I cannot buy, a beer I cannot taste but a beer that I endlessly see and hear. ␤ ␤ Hell is real. We are living in it. ]
<clever> zid: oh, thats a new one!
<zid> Some of them are really great
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<clever> zid: its also weird, because i feel like i witnessed the birth of the meme, i'm fairly sure i know where it originated, heh
<clever> ah, double-checking, maybe not, that was just where i first saw it, and it came from outside via twitter
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<bslsk05> ​Around 2003 in Chile, when the original trilogy of Star Wars began airing on television there, they did this funny thing to avoid cutting to commercial breaks. They stitched the commercials into the films themselves. Here is one of them, with the English dub added in. https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1764023204786401280/pu/vid/avc1/480x360/hnMg8B9Y5mqjilho.mp4?tag=12 ]
<zid> and everybody's been reposting anything they find related to it underneath
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