<nikolapdp>
a commong bug with printf is that you aren't handling 0 correctly
<nikolapdp>
actually i think that's exactly what's wrong
<nikolapdp>
adder^
<adder>
Yeah, let's see.
<adder>
nikolapdp: Prints 0, but with mmap_addr as pointer. :)
<nikolapdp>
what does that mean
<adder>
klange said mmap_addr shouldn't be a pointer, so I tried without it being a pointer, and it wouldn't print anything. But if it is a pointer, then size appears to be 0.
<adder>
(Indeed, I wasn't handling 0 at all.)
<nikolapdp>
there you go
<klange>
You get to fix two things today =)
<gog>
i hate makefiles
<klange>
(be careful with that mmap stuff, it's not an array)
<gog>
i hate hate them
<nikolapdp>
gog makefiles are great
<gog>
:(
<nikolapdp>
:)
<klange>
(also, what you are currentl interpreting as 'size' is almost defintely actually 'base_addr': 'size' is 4 bytes *before* the address in 'mmap_addr')
<nikolapdp>
also don't deal with just ints, you need longs too
<klange>
none of those pointers should be pointers, and that's missing half of the fields
<adder>
I'll look for another multiboot.h then.
<klange>
also you don't need to copy from anythhing but the literal multiboot source page that has a header with a BSD license
<adder>
Alright.
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<klange>
> 'size' is 4 bytes *before* the address in 'mmap_addr'
<klange>
or was it... something else...
<klange>
size doesn't include itself?
<klange>
the multiboot1 mmap layout is really weird
<gog>
the efi one is weird too
<klange>
the efi one is just funny because of the memory allocation bootstrapping problem :)
<zid>
yea they specify it with negative offsets and stuff
<zid>
but afaik it just totally isn't needed they just decided to write it that way?
<zid>
-4 size, 0 blah .. but you can totally just consider it as 0 size, 4 blah and blah goes from 4 to size-4 instead
<zid>
like a normal human
<adder>
So if I pushl %ebx once, then it seems that I can't read values from the struct, but if I push twice, then I can read everything.
<klange>
Check your calling conventions...
<adder>
AMD manual?
<klange>
No.
<gog>
no, how the function receives arguments
<adder>
Yeah, where to check that, is my question.
<klange>
Calling conventions are defined by the ABI your compiler implements.
<adder>
Thanks.
<heat_>
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD MORNING LINUX USERS
<nikolapdp>
hello heat_
<zid>
heat can we use w10
<heat_>
we're not in the morning, this is not a linux channel
<heat_>
again, i have severe mental issues
<heat_>
zid, no windows is the devil's bogey
<gog>
it's easier to come out as trans than a linux user these days
<kazinsal>
I believe it
<zid>
like you'd ever come out as a linux user gog
<zid>
so how would you know?!
<heat_>
gog uses solaris
<gog>
i had a phase in my 20's
<gog>
where i was using operating system replacements
<zid>
everyone has a PHASE
<zid>
not everybody fully transitions
<zid>
It's a big deal
<heat_>
operating system replacement therapy
<zid>
I hate it when they come cut your dick off, fucking linux :(
<zid>
"You won't need it"
<heat_>
no, they cut your lips off
<heat_>
because you definitely won't be needing those
<gog>
dang linux even open-sourced grs
<gog>
thanks linus
<kazinsal>
$ sudo modprobe neovagina
<zid>
I want goth reassignment surgery
<heat_>
what's grs?
<heat_>
oh
<zid>
When they give me more goths.
<zid>
under threat of a knife
<heat_>
GNU grs
<kazinsal>
$ sudo yum install big-titty-goth-gf
<heat_>
sir
<heat_>
yum doesn't exist anymore
<heat_>
i hope
<gog>
i'm compiling her from source
<kazinsal>
both of these are standard on Catgirl Linux, the official linux distribution of trans girls
<heat_>
it was deprecated like 7 years ago when i last used fedora
<zid>
trans people are the gentoo users of human bodies
<heat_>
no, LFS users
<kazinsal>
whoa whoa let's not say things we can't take back
<heat_>
build your own body
<zid>
nah LFS is when you get pregnant
<heat_>
pregnat
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<kazinsal>
manually building the worst set of CFLAGS possible in the name of optimizing transition timelines
<zid>
Is it monday yet
<gog>
yes
<gog>
does catgirl linux exist
<kazinsal>
no :(
<zid>
yay, is it 10pm soon then?
<gog>
in awhile
<gog>
you'll get your honzuki
<zid>
but I want it noooow :(
<zid>
if I needlessly stay awake, it'll be much closer when I wake up at least
<heat_>
my team got shafted tonight
<heat_>
thankfully i fell asleep
<heat_>
didn't need to watch that garbage
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<zid>
If ceramic doesn't biodegrade, why does my coffee mug have mushrooms growing on it? QED>
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<adder>
What needs done so I can have page up and page down to scroll back and forth?
<Mutabah>
store more data than fits on the screen, and blit that up when you see those keys
<adder>
Yeah, seeing the keys is what I'm interested in.
<Mutabah>
so you want keyboard input?
<adder>
I think?
<heat>
what are we talking about?
<adder>
Scrollback on page up/down.
<heat>
scrollback for what?
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<adder>
Like when you print stuff to vga buffer and it doesn't all fit.
<Mutabah>
Step 1: get keyboard input to see the keys
<Mutabah>
step 2: store your buffer in a large backing buffer
<Mutabah>
step 3: render from the backing to the screen
<Mutabah>
(with a variable offset depending on the "scroll position", which is manipulated by the keyboard driver)
<heat>
scrollback is somewhat non-trivial
<heat>
probably not your biggest priority anyway
<heat>
but if you really want to do it, you probably want to develop a full fledged vt implementation like what Mutabah just described
<adder>
I'm not sure I want to do that at this point. :)
<heat>
what do you have?
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<adder>
Still in protected mode, able to print out stuff from multiboot struct.
<heat>
neat
<heat>
see the GDT, then the IDT, then exceptions and interrupts
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<adder>
I'll need to figure out how to transition to long mode and set page tables up.
<heat>
you're not
<adder>
Oh. Before long mode?
<heat>
not yet anyway
<heat>
we don't want long mode yet
<heat>
after you do paging and learn how the MMU works, you can do long mode
<adder>
Alright.
<heat>
but that'll require another cross-compiler and some rewrite of the architecture stuff
<heat>
the GDT format is slightly different, the IDT format is slightly different, the entry code will be a lot more complex, etc. not the priority now
<adder>
Do you mean different than the one I built?
<heat>
i assume you have an i686-elf?
<adder>
Not the 32 bit kind, 64-bit.
<heat>
how are you compiling 32-bit code then?
<adder>
Currently without any cross compilers.
<heat>
get an i686-elf toolchain
<heat>
gcc -m32 will work for now, but you want an actual cross-compiler ASAP
<adder>
Yeah. I'll get that then.
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<bslsk05>
twitter: <bcantrill> It's unclear if we're being dared to do this or begged not to, but today on Oxide and Friends @ahl and I are going to take on data visualization -- including (but not limited to!) our trusty but idiosyncratic friend, gnuplot. Join us, 5p Pacific! <discord.gg/xgZ5uaXM?event… https://t.co/p2Lr670nCl> [https://twitter.com/openlabbott/status/1762241922100351093 <openlabbott> @bcantrill @ahl Do it u won’t ]
<heat_>
gnuplot!!!
<zid>
I thought you hated gnuplot
<zid>
every time I use it you cry at me
<heat_>
i hate gnuplot because i can't use it
<zid>
nobody can
<zid>
SPLOT 'file.xyz' AS 1:2:3 USING LINES
<Mondenkind>
language!
<heat_>
there's a point where i just say fuck it and use google sheets
<heat_>
and gnuplot is wayyy past it
<mjg>
gnuplot is trivial to use, just spend ungodly hours learning it
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<mjg>
really though a bunch of one liners and most common uses are perfectly approachable
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<zid>
cute, mario kart wii has a bug where after a year the hud stops working right, then goes white, for another year
<zid>
Presumably from the timestamp going negative and fucking up the animation calcs
<Mondenkind>
so after 2 years it starts working again?
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<GeDaMo>
The game has to be continuously running for a year?
<zid>
do you not do that?
<GeDaMo>
I have not :|
<zid>
That beats the sm64 bug that takes a few days at least
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<zid>
there's float imprecision in how virtual console does some trig, so one of the animated platforms in one of the bowser levels will slowly rise and fall over several days
<zid>
one of the no jumping challenges requires it
<zid>
There's a twilight princess bug that takes a few months I think
<zid>
Picking up a new type of ruppee starts a little dialogue "You've found a green ruppee, it's worth 1!" or whatever, with link holding it in front of his chest
<zid>
it will *very* slowly push him backwards if you leave the box open
<zid>
so after 2 months you can clip through walls with it
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<Ermine>
heat_: I have doas installed
<zid>
dick on a stick?
<Ermine>
(it = doas)
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<heat_>
Ermine, yes but you are the alpine user of all time
<nikolapdp>
works with a bunch of other commands, like it knows sudo takes commands as args so you get commands when you tab
<mjg>
heat_: but you can't walk the list, can you
<heat_>
i can't walk the list
<heat_>
but i don't particularly care about that
<nikolapdp>
you just have to type one character at a time until it's unique
<mjg>
lemme try to record
<sham1>
> arch
<heat_>
nikolapdp, bash-completion can also do sudo completion
<sham1>
Anyway, pimping up my $PS1 (well, $PROMPT) is good, actually
<sham1>
I like having colours
<heat_>
like, the only real difference is that you can walk up and down the list with your arrow keys, that's it
<nikolapdp>
doesn't work for me heat_
<heat_>
because at least for third-party stuff, zsh is actually using the bash-completion stuff that programs install
<sham1>
It can obviously use that
<sham1>
But the more "native" completion functions are richer
<mjg>
so for example say you have a long list of very similarly named files
<mjg>
with zsh i can literally walk the list to select the right one
<heat_>
why would i
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<heat_>
am i in hell?
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<sham1>
yes
<mjg>
lulmofer for example you are dealing with logfiles
<Ermine>
heat_: dietlibc is more minimal. I'd say it's radically minimal
<mjg>
named YYYYMMDD
<heat_>
Ermine, radically optimal it sounds like
<mjg>
diet?
<mjg>
ketolibc!
<sham1>
veganlibc
<mjg>
fucking GOGGINS libc is literally a wrapper around the syscall instruction
<Ermine>
ignoring error conditions is not really optimal
<heat_>
sure it is
<heat_>
no branchen
<mjg>
was gonna say!
<nikolapdp>
it's optimal for speed
<mjg>
branch elided!
<nikolapdp>
SPEED
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<mjg>
you know what's optimal for i/o?
<mjg>
you don't even do the writes
<nikolapdp>
not doing it
<sham1>
mongodb
<heat_>
webskell
<mjg>
damn straight
<mjg>
as for reads, just assume it's all 0
<sham1>
That's my cache coherence strategy
<heat_>
mjg re zfs
<heat_>
what if your file cache bitflips
<mjg>
you mean in ram?
<heat_>
your ARC or whatever you weirdos call it
<heat_>
yes
<mjg>
ECC
<mjg>
but you do have a partial point
<nikolapdp>
literally on the wiki
<nikolapdp>
lol
<heat_>
ok but now you wake up and have consumer hardware
<sham1>
Oh, so ECC
<mjg>
bonwick rolling in his villa
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<Ermine>
also bash is about gnu engineering ethos
<nikolapdp>
GNU
<mjg>
let me tell you what's gnu engineering ethos
<sham1>
Something something "print out the GNU coding standard and burn it"
<heat_>
you know whats BSD engineering ethos? pretending you're on your high horse when in reality you vampired off of GNU's work and software for 30 years
<mjg>
sudo strace mount --bind -o ro /etc/passwd crap
<zid>
massive patreon with "switch(tm)(c) emulator" all over it
<zid>
fine in canadian court apparently goes from $5000 to unlimited, because it was commercial not hobby
<nikolapdp>
oh ouch
<zid>
I do wonder if they pulled a lot more than $2.4M out of it though
<nikolapdp>
i thought commecrial emulators were still fine
<zid>
In the UK they very wouldn't be, for example
<kazinsal>
it is always ethical to pirate nntendo products (in minecraft)
<zid>
Breaking encryption is just not excepted at all
<nikolapdp>
it's always ethical to pirate (in minecraft)
<zid>
They're effectively a multi-million dollar business that exists to break the encryption of nintendo's hardware so it can be used to pirate
<nikolapdp>
in what way did they break encription
<zid>
vice city's dvd is xor'd with 0x47, I assume me ripping that would violate
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<zid>
Eerything is encrypted these days
<zid>
You need to decap chips and find exploits and stuff to get console keys out
<zid>
before you can decrypt any romz
<nikolapdp>
like is it their fault that nintendo screwed the encryption
<kazinsal>
they didn't even break the encryption
<kazinsal>
they just provided a method by which you can jam the keys in yourself
<zid>
the end user *has* to be able to decrypt it, because they have to play it
<zid>
but that *should* require buying a switch
<nikolapdp>
yeah
<zid>
and now suddenly it doesn't..
<zid>
Like, consider if I had to buy a $200 device to unlock escooters over NFC from the scooter manufacturer
<zid>
do you think if a company selling clones of that device for $5 existed, the scooter company might have a case?
<zid>
divorce it from games and it seems more reasonable
<kazinsal>
sounds like the scooter company should be competitively priced then. the invisible hand of the free market triumphs once again
<nikolapdp>
lol
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<zid>
$5 to throw a scooter into a canal is a bargain
<nikolapdp>
not wrong
<kazinsal>
a friend of mine once spent a couple weeks in jail for throwing a rental e-scooter through a payday loan shop window
<kazinsal>
absolute queen
<nikolapdp>
also physical things like scooters are different to digital media like games
<zid>
are they?
<zid>
cart, console
<zid>
scooter, canal
<nikolapdp>
if i take your scooter, you don't have a scooter anymore, if i copy a game folder from you, you still have the game
<nikolapdp>
so yeah very different
<kazinsal>
digital media doesn't have physical resources needed for manufacturing a copy
<kazinsal>
a scooter does
<nikolapdp>
exactly
<zid>
we're not talking piracy
<zid>
we're talking about whether you have to buy the switch or not
<zid>
to be able to use the carts
<zid>
nintendo says "yes, and we used encryption to make sure"
<nikolapdp>
if i can read the data from the carts, why would i need to buy the switch
<zid>
yuzu said "no, and we broke the encryption to make sure"
<zid>
that's the issue, not piracy
<kazinsal>
yuzu never broke the encryption though, they had a parallel implementation of the algorithm that still required nintendo's private keys
<gog>
you got a loiscence to break tha' 'ncryption?
<nikolapdp>
now you'll tell me that the keys are nintendo's property or something
<zid>
do you not remember HDDVD
<kazinsal>
effectively this is a court case ruling that implementing encryption algorithms that someone else came up with but didn't disclose the specification for is illegal
<zid>
or bluray
<kazinsal>
yuzu did not distribute the private keys
<Bibikski>
yuzu will most likely win their court battle as they do not distribute the keys and require you to own or gather keys from somewhere else, therefore it is not piracy and it will be protected since it is an emulator
<kazinsal>
they settled. they already "lost"
<zid>
Except they already lost it
<kazinsal>
which honestly was pretty stupid of them
<zid>
They might win an *appeal*
<kazinsal>
this is going to empower nintendo to be cunts about other emulators
<Bibikski>
well didn't hear of that but thats dumb that they settled
<zid>
Not in the least
<zid>
If nintendo is against you and you're on the wrong side of dmca, go home
<gog>
nintendo has as many lawyers as they can throw money at
<gog>
and the law on their side
<zid>
I'd say it's probably true of any company with a legal department
<gog>
yes
<gog>
like if you're in a legal battle with them it's already over no matter how careful you were
<zid>
If they have people sitting in an office whose job it is to put you in prison and take all your money, and they offer to not do that, it's not "dumb" to accept.
<gog>
unless you have a smart lawyer who can outlegal them
<nikolapdp>
they can always win a war of attrition against small prjcets even if they are wrong
<zid>
Dumb would be thinking you can defeat nintendo in a court room
<zid>
even if the charge was "You're actually a pineapple wearing a trenchcoat"
<nikolapdp>
even if the law is on your side they would just appeal and sue until you go bankrupt
<zid>
I'd give it 90/10 to nintendo
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<zid>
say dumb things, quit
<zid>
RIDE OR DIE
<kof673>
> if i take your scooter, you don't have a scooter anymore, if i copy a game folder from you, you still have the game
<kof673>
sure, but does that lead to inflation or not? anyways, law will never go there, as long as everyone is screwed equally, there is no individual damage (in the u.s.) :D
<kof673>
this is not to argue anything except depends on the issue whether that is a problem lol
<kof673>
*theoretically screwed equally
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<geist>
yah losing battles like that by settling is par the course
<geist>
i'm not saying they dont have the right to build an emulator, etc, but they're definitely poking a sleeping bear with that
<geist>
it may be unfair, but it's not unexpected
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<zid>
it wasn't even unfair, in this case
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<kof673>
> An injunction is an equitable remedy equity is "fairness", law was law, legal is did you wear the right costume or not lol this was "fairness"
<kof673>
so yes, in lawyerese, it was "fair"
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<heat_>
morning freebsd
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<mjg>
ey heat
<mjg>
just wanted to say i appreciate your insight
<zid>
heat throwing insults around :
<mjg>
heat is an ass, or at least has one
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<heat>
mjg, afternoon sortix
<heat>
for more insights sub to my onlyfans
<mjg>
feet pics next to coredumps?
<zid>
heat can I be an ultrix
<heat>
dump pics next to coredumps
<heat>
yes zid you can be whatever you set your mind to
<heat>
<3
<heat>
personally i'm a vulpix
* zid
refreshes madly
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<zid>
pls just be late and not the uploader missing
<zid>
I will cry
<Ermine>
heat: will you port this mount api to onyx?
<zid>
the only mount api spaniards use is sys_sheep
<zid>
woo it's up
<heat>
i haven't been spanish for 3-4 generations
<heat>
Ermine, maybe idk
<nikolapdp>
only 3-4
<heat>
the mount(2) API is absolute ass
<nikolapdp>
that's like 100 years
<heat>
yeah
<heat>
my great-grandma's father was spanish
<Ermine>
"Every day we stray closer and closer to plan9"
<heat>
and i have some more spanish ancestors further back
<heat>
we've actually been trying to trace our lineage
<heat>
it's hard
<nikolapdp>
yeah i can imagine
<Ermine>
writing stuff into some fs definitely has plan9 vibes
<heat>
or literally any file in UNIX
<Ermine>
in unix, you write data
<Ermine>
Afaik using files to control stuff is plan9 thing
<heat>
no?
<nikolapdp>
i think Ermine is trying to say that using fds to configure stuff in-kernel is very plan9
<Ermine>
^
<heat>
and i'm telling you that's literally how linux works
<gog>
sysfs
<gog>
proc
<heat>
do you know how to set your own process's comm? you open /proc/self/comm, write to it, and close it
<Ermine>
but not unices which existed before plan9
<heat>
intial release was 1992, you had procfs and devfs by then
<heat>
worst case you poked around in /dev/kmem for whatever you wanted to do
<Ermine>
what a coincidence, plan9 was released in 1992 as well
<nikolapdp>
POKE()
<Ermine>
but ok
<heat>
yes, that's what i'm talking about
<heat>
you had procfs by 1992
<heat>
not in linux
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<heat>
basically what i wanted to say is: unix made the everything is a file a thing, plan9 took it further
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<heat>
but opening a file in some random magic fs, writing some ASCII to it, and closing it is basically traditional UNIX
<heat>
at the very least, it's traditional linux
<heat>
i know some procfs out there was binary (sun's?)
<nikolapdp>
sun does seem to have a thing for binary over text in a few place
<nikolapdp>
places
<heat>
linux's procfs is funny, because in hindsight it's grossly misdesigned. you have a handful of files, with a well defined structure that can't be broken (we don't break userspace!!)
<acidx>
heat: been trying to trace my family's lineage too and while I can find some records, they get progressively hard to read the further back I go. the handwriting of notaries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries are worse than a doctor's handwriting lol
<heat>
so sometimes adding more fields is a PITA. they learned with sysfs, so sysfs is basically full of tiny little files
<heat>
with single values. basically name - value pairing
<heat>
acidx, :) we haven't gone that far back yet, basically the oldest we have is around the 1870s
<heat>
i assume we'll need to hope everyone was baptised, so they're in the church's records. but we still have relatively sparse info
<nikolapdp>
i imagine it can be tricky to trace the church records too
<acidx>
yeah, in my case I'm sure some of them were new christians during the inquisition too
<acidx>
so I don't know if we'd find records of that kind of stuff
<heat>
oh
<acidx>
but I didn't go that far back either. would probably have to find first where they came from portugal and go there to take a look
<heat>
cristãos-novos were force-baptized I think :)
<heat>
worst case you have digitalized inquisition records for the couple of centuries they were here
<acidx>
those that didn't choose to leave or die, yeah :P
<acidx>
yeah, I stopped looking at this when the law that would give me porutuguese citizenship due to jewish ancestry isn't valid any longer
<heat>
what? i'm pretty sure it is
<heat>
sephardite jewish descendents have citizenship
<heat>
even roman fucking abramovich got a portuguese citizenship
<acidx>
lol
<acidx>
well, if someone like me, with a 'pereira' surname can't get that, but someone with the most slavic name can :D
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<zid>
gaah
<zid>
“Right!”
<zid>
“Be ready to travel as fast as we can go.”
<zid>
<end of part>
<nikolapdp>
is it a cliffhanger
<zid>
not really but ACTION is happening rn
<heat>
acidx, pereira is defo not a jewish last name. i know the surname is one of the criteria, but i doubt it's the only one
<zid>
also next week is dst week I think
<gorgonical>
nortti: how hot is too hot to sauna. these are important questions
<acidx>
heat: oh, it is! it was adopted by new christians when they were force-baptized, and some people kept using it when the inquisition was over
<gorgonical>
zid: that's true here in america
<zid>
what's true
<gorgonical>
dst
<acidx>
heat: it's on the list of names and whatnot
<zid>
I just.. said that?
<gorgonical>
yes but it's not true in parts of europe
<zid>
we get a *week* of dst shenanigans now
<zid>
because of the offset
<gorgonical>
Germany doesn't change until like the end of march tho
<zid>
then they're synced for all of dst, time, except the last week again
<heat>
acidx, oh cool, did they deny you then?
<acidx>
heat: but, yeah, it's not the only criteria. has to be part of a jewish community somewhere with some proof and whatnot. it's not an easy process.
<zid>
so it goes 10pm 10pm 10pm 10pm 9pm 10pm 10p 10pm 11pm 10pm 10pm or so
<acidx>
heat: I never applied because I could never prove the direct link. :)
<gorgonical>
i'm so glad that some asshole who wanted to do more butterfly catching in the evening has inflicted this on us forever
<heat>
acidx, oh, how close is your portuguese lineage?
<nikolapdp>
gorgonical i have heard that $CURRENT_YEAR is the last year with dst for years over here lol
<zid>
The only weirdness is the US/EU 1 wek offset
<gorgonical>
two weeks
<acidx>
heat: probably very far away. kinda hard to know, couldn't find much beyond late 19th century.
<zid>
yea one or two weeks it depends how it lines up
<heat>
acidx, oh, well, if you want to come here citizenship is ridiculously easy to get. even more so for CPLP countries AFAIK
<nikolapdp>
CPLP?
<gorgonical>
lusophone countries
<nikolapdp>
ah
<zid>
community of pantless countries
<heat>
immigrants can even vote around here
<zid>
It's like the commonwealth but it's just brazil and portugal
<heat>
you don't need citizenship to vote
<gorgonical>
and also like mozambique and angola right?
<heat>
yes
<heat>
and cape verde, and macau (i think??), and guiné-bissau
* heat
rejoices in empire
<gorgonical>
do you get really good food from the overseas communities like amsterdam gets from surinam?
<heat>
we already have the good food
<zid>
we already stole your one good dish, vindaloo
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<zid>
which you stole from india
<gorgonical>
the best things I ate in amsterdam was the surinamese food
<acidx>
f'ing portuguese pastries making me fat just by thinking about them
<heat>
some brazillians dishes are also nice, but i don't really care for the african ones
<gorgonical>
you are right though, you already have pasteis, which is the second best pastry after croissants
<acidx>
heat: yeah, I've thought about looking into ways to get a pt passport and possibly retire in europe. not sure what I'll end up doing. I do like the idea of not having to completely learn a new language though. :P
<gorgonical>
heat: I wonder if portuguese descendants in india can get in on the luso community
<heat>
absolutely
<heat>
if you can prove you have portuguese grandparents, you're in, ezpz
<gorgonical>
I met an indian in my program who was named kenrick fernandes and was I was so confused when we met
<heat>
and goa only left portugal in the mid 50s
<zid>
I think portugal should have left goa
<zid>
Given the important of each piece of clay
<zid>
that'd be like england leaving the UK
<heat>
here's the thing, goa didn't actually leave
<heat>
india just took it, by force
<zid>
How rude
<zid>
only europeans are allowed to do that
<heat>
and portugal protested in the UN, and everyone just ignored them
<gorgonical>
"lol whatever. next item?"
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<heat>
because having colonies was super passé
<zid>
and portugal is pointless
<heat>
fuck you
<heat>
you're not coming to the algarve now
<zid>
Now imagine that spain took gibraltar back
<heat>
i'll make sur eof it
<zid>
or argentina invaded the falklands again
<gorgonical>
spain should take gibraltar back and then deport the monkeys to england
<heat>
woah, racist gorgonical in the building!
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<heat>
the UK is definitely asking for a good invasion though
<gorgonical>
i mean at this point they've been in english gibraltar long enough that they are substantially not spanish monkeys anymore
<kof673>
apes represented spirits of fire (like apocalypse around throne) it is lost to sign language :D
<kof673>
they have fiery personalities lol
<kof673>
that was a high priest status lol
<kof673>
hellfire cannot harm the salamander lol
<zid>
gorgonical: 'monkeys' is a racially loaded term that you should avoid
<nikolapdp>
monkeys
<gorgonical>
I can't tell if you're being sincere
<zid>
100%
<gorgonical>
I am in fact referring to the macaques though
<heat>
racism in french now?
<kof673>
many swear words/etc. are old ancient things so it is quite normal to become a slur later.
<gorgonical>
I can understand that the word is loaded though
<zid>
"Racism, but I decide to die ont he hill"
<gorgonical>
It would be hilarious to receive a shipfull of macaques into london, though
<zid>
they have nice parrots
<kof673>
i was giving you an out gorgonical , on your own now :D
<heat>
which is fairly representative of the BCHS performance
<zid>
beos, cernal, httpd, spellig
<zid>
I use LACS then
<zid>
linux apache C sqlite
<zid>
nikolapdp: I showed you my sqlite + C, so you can confirm
<gog>
don't program
<gorgonical>
programming is a mistake
<gog>
if you're programming to solve a problem you fucked up a long time ago
<nikolapdp>
zid you did
<nikolapdp>
only good programming is for fun
<zid>
^
<heat>
what problems are solved by programming?
<zid>
Real programming should be done to like, NASA standards
<zid>
and take 40 years
<zid>
the rest should be only be toy programs
<gog>
no problem has ever in the history of the universe beens olved by programming
<gorgonical>
am I just delusional if I have fun programming for other reasons?
<nikolapdp>
if it's fun it's fun
<nikolapdp>
it counts
<gog>
i mean yeah
<zid>
gog when are we pear programming
<nikolapdp>
what's pear programming
<heat>
How do I pronounce BCHS?
<heat>
It's pronounced /biːtʃəz/, beaches
<heat>
holy fucking shit
<gorgonical>
anything not for an apple platform
<nikolapdp>
bitches
<heat>
no bitches?!
<zid>
beach bitch
<zid>
ninki minjaj
<zid>
I was walking around on my animal crossing looking for clams going "beach bitch" "ninki minjaj"
<gorgonical>
It should be /bacahasa/, like how we have to reconstruct egyptian words because we don't have the vowels
<heat>
i like how they use B for BSD but then it's just OpenBSD
<heat>
like if you use FreeBSD it blows up
<heat>
where in reality you'd just tear the universe's fabric because freebsd cannot have users
<nikolapdp>
gorgonical you'd actually be surprised how well we know vowels
<nikolapdp>
we just aren't as sure as with other ancient languages
<zid>
has freebsd solved the c1k problem yet
<gorgonical>
yes but the joke works better if we pretend the last 50 years of egyptian linguistics aren't there
<nikolapdp>
lol sure
<heat>
yeah zid freebsd is optimal, it's just that no one uses it
<gorgonical>
damn comparative philologists fucking up my bad joke
<zid>
heat:whoa
<heat>
freebsd has the fountain of youth built-in
<heat>
and the el-dorado
<nikolapdp>
gorgonical isn't philology just for classical literature, and linguistics is more general language science
<heat>
more info at el-dorado(3)
<gorgonical>
nikolapdp: yeah something like that. philology is a sort of older, more classical technique that got formalized and refined into linguistics
<nikolapdp>
yeah that sort of thing
<gorgonical>
a philologist is the sort that would say because the german word for debt and guilt are the same thing, Schuld, that this influences their culture in some "Germanic" way
<kof673>
i will keep it pg13: Babi (Egyptian god) which sit on the scales in the Hall of Judgment there's another why would i make that up lol
<nikolapdp>
lol i don't think modern philologist would say anything close to that
<gorgonical>
indeed not a modern one no
<heat>
philolololologist
<zid>
Germanic culture lolol
<gorgonical>
But I don't know of any prominent universities where philology hasn't been converted into mostly a historical literature degree
<gorgonical>
All the linguistics stuff is just in the linguistics department now
<heat>
germanic culture? lmfao
<heat>
i'm a true roman
<nikolapdp>
yeah that's basically the case over here too gorgonical
<heat>
and as much of a roman as i am, i live in istanbul capital of the roman empire
<zid>
fucking barbarians
<nikolapdp>
istanbul isn't a capital of the roman empire
<nikolapdp>
hasn't been since 15th century
<nikolapdp>
write your fanfic elsewhere heat lol
<gorgonical>
I once heard a french person say that France was actually a germanic people with a romance culture, hence all the internal strife France has experienced
<zid>
gauls were the traitors
<nikolapdp>
i don't think that's the source of their internal strife lol
<zid>
who allied with the romans to fuck the celts
<zid>
those traitor gauls are now french people
<heat>
suleiman disagreed
<nikolapdp>
you don't call germans as romans, even though they claimed the same thing as suleiman
<zid>
why are you guys
<zid>
debating the opinion of an onion
<nikolapdp>
onion?
<zid>
type suleiman into google images
<zid>
then use google lens
<zid>
"cocktail onion" "cocktail onion"
<gorgonical>
oh lol
<zid>
"portrait"
<zid>
"onion"
<heat>
nikolapdp, they had the legitimacy to be a "roman empire" for a time
<nikolapdp>
lol
<nikolapdp>
heat no they didn't
<zid>
onion empire
<heat>
when they lost italy it all went to shit
<heat>
absolutely they did
<nikolapdp>
pope saying you are roman doesn't make you roman
<heat>
the pope fucking crowned them
<gorgonical>
I recently learned that we can credit the use of bath towels to the ottomans
<nikolapdp>
yeah so
<heat>
do you understand how powerful the pope is???
<heat>
well, was
<zid>
pope is hre not roman empire
<nikolapdp>
lol he wasn't
<nikolapdp>
over here
<heat>
who asked
<zid>
nikolapdp btw
<heat>
serbia was a backwater compared to italy
<zid>
how roman is serbian
<zid>
was!?
<nikolapdp>
what
<nikolapdp>
heat i was talking more about the actual rome than serbia
<nikolapdp>
ie byzantium
<zid>
like, romanian is 100km away from serbia and romanian is very roman-ian
<nikolapdp>
ah right
<nikolapdp>
i'd say not very
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<heat>
nikolapdp, the pope fucking *ruled*. you were not a country in the catholic world if the pope didn't agree
<zid>
england not a country
<heat>
don't forget portugal and spain fucking DIVIDED THE ENTIRE WORLD. you know who ratified that shit? the pope.
<zid>
then failed to take any of it
<nikolapdp>
and how did that end up again heat
<zid>
cus the dutch and british did instead
<zid>
the non-countries
<zid>
pope off having fever dreams by himself
<heat>
the dutch and british were already anti-pope
<nikolapdp>
also pope being powerful doesn't make it possible for him to conjure up romans wherever he wants
<heat>
absolutely
<nikolapdp>
so we agree
<zid>
nikolapdp: KIM POPE IL-SUNG GOT 14 HOLES IN ONE THEN SUMMONED ROME
<heat>
but if you're crowned king of italy, emperor of 10 billion places, by the bishop of rome
<zid>
heat rn
<heat>
you are the emperor. period.
<nikolapdp>
zid lol basically
<heat>
your notion of rome is too rigid
<zid>
Your notion of how relevent what the pope says to how reality actually exists is too flexible
<nikolapdp>
heat the western roman imperial title died with the last roman emperor, the fact that germans cosplayed romans doens't make them roman
<heat>
in 892? yeah it was amazingly relevant
<heat>
sorry, 962
<heat>
why was otto not a roman emperor, but the palaiologos had a whole *roman* dynasty thousands of KM away from rome itself
<heat>
why was the byzantine empire roman, but the ottoman empire wasn't, and the HRE wasn't?
<zid>
remind me
<zid>
what year does 'fall of the western roman empire' happen?
<zid>
was it 500 years before or after 962? I forget.
<nikolar>
because they are actually direct descendants of rome both culturally and legally??
<heat>
oh yes, the greek romans
<heat>
great point
<nikolar>
yeah?
<heat>
no?
<nikolar>
so greek romans are a step too far
<nikolar>
but turk romans isn't=
<nikolar>
?
<zid>
"472–476: Final emperors, puppets of the warlords"
<heat>
greek romans is as a step too far as turk romans
<zid>
nikolapdp: is 962 bigger or smaller than 476 I forget
<nikolar>
i think it's bigger yea
<zid>
huh weird
<nikolar>
sure is
<zid>
wait, where does the pope live, in istanbul right?
<heat>
otto had higher legitimacy as a ROMAN EMPEROR than the whole byzantine dynasties
<zid>
This makes perfect sense, if the pope lives in istanbul
<nikolar>
lol pope doesn't grant legitimacy to the word roman
<heat>
well sure, but having rome and italy does
<gog>
y'all think about the roman empire too much
<gog>
i cannot relate
<heat>
woman moment
<nikolar>
gog: you're a girl
<zid>
girls don't care about SPQR
<heat>
the romans didn't care about the SPQR either
<zid>
heat: You can't have it both ways, that byz is rome *and* the pope is rome
<zid>
it's either/or
<nikolar>
zid he is saying that byz isn't rome and pope is
<nikolar>
or at least whoever pope says it is
<heat>
my point is that drawing lines is absolutely fucking silly
<zid>
So then he doesn't get to claim anything past 476, easy
<nikolar>
ok so if i say i am roman now, you legally have to speak to me in latin
<heat>
rome fell before 476 in practice
<nikolar>
i mean anything goes
<zid>
Either you get to claim stuff past 476, and you continue 'rome exists' by counting byz
<zid>
or you don't, and you don't
<nikolar>
yeah basically
<zid>
heat: You can at least *argue* for rome up to 476, beyond it is obviously nonsense.
<zid>
even if it was just goth puppets
<heat>
nikolar, the latin empire, was it rome?
<heat>
or *roman*
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<nikolar>
no
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<zid>
'latin empire' is mexico
<nikolar>
zid: he means the crusader state the took over constantinople
<heat>
if the latin empire wasn't roman, why? was byz after the latin empire rome?
<zid>
heat trying to have it both ways again now
<nikolar>
yeah because the remaining parts of byz reconquered and reunited the country
<zid>
if it is, then the pope doesn't matter
<nikolar>
mostly at least lol
<zid>
I think finland should decide who the leader of russia is
<heat>
you mean the empire of nicea?
<nikolar>
zid: yeah that's a great idea isn't it
<zid>
It used to be part of russia, ergo 400 years later, it should decide who leads it
<nikolar>
makes so much sense
<nikolar>
heat: sure
<nikolar>
they called themselves roman but sure
<nikolar>
because they were
<heat>
they were as roman as portugal
<nikolar>
they were plenty roman
<heat>
maybe less roman, we at least shared religions with the city of rome
<nikolar>
you mean denomination
<zid>
nikolapdp are you orthodox
<nikolar>
i am
<zid>
does your cross have a cross
<heat>
the greeks were all excommunicated as the SONS OF THE DEVIL they were
<nikolar>
heat: your rebel bishop doesn't count heat
<nikolar>
zid: some do some don't lol
<nikolar>
it's not a universal thing
<zid>
smh allI know about orthodox
<zid>
is that they have a purple cross cross
<zid>
and you're telling me not everybody has a cross cross!?
<nikolar>
lol
<nikolar>
also very little purple aroun
<zid>
anglican is the worst religion in eu4, discuss
<nikolar>
i forgot how anglican works, it's been a while lol
<zid>
it does nothing
<nikolar>
does it have the same thing as protestants whre you choose buffs
<heat>
protestant is the best
<zid>
I prefer the tribal shit
<nikolar>
orthodox is pretty good, + discipline
<zid>
to anglican
<heat>
+ prod eff, + morale, + discipline
<heat>
get prussian ideas
<heat>
kill
<nikolar>
you can't play every game as prussia heat
<nikolar>
or brandeburg i guess
<zid>
anglican lets you remove consorts!
<zid>
and gain 1% mercantialism!
<nikolar>
lol
<nikolar>
love that they added the consort thing
<heat>
nikolar, anyway, whats your criteria for being "roman"? i really don't get it
<zid>
I'll tell you what it isn't
<zid>
being german
<heat>
is it just "hey they were conventionally called romans in some point in time"? because that fits a lot
<nikolar>
it's an unbroken line of legitimacy going back to the augustus basically
<heat>
also, consider this: the west didn't really call the byzantines roman (after the catholic-orthodox thing at least)
<heat>
what's legitimacy? shared dynasty?
<nikolar>
you had your larp with your rebel bishop so of course you didn't
<zid>
This is like the oldest political stunt in the book
<nikolar>
which one
<nikolar>
we both did one i think
<zid>
"We'll just pretend we have authority, and make charlemange important"
<zid>
that one
<nikolar>
lol yeah
<nikolar>
i mean charlemagne was important
<zid>
heat lapping it up
<nikolar>
just not roman
<heat>
the "legitimacy" was broken, dynasties were kicked out, power was taken by force countless times in the ERE + WRE history. there's no shared lineage between the last byz emperor and augustus
<nikolar>
by that logic, england today is not england
<nikolar>
or germany
<nikolar>
or france
<nikolar>
etc
<heat>
you almost had more conflicts than peaceful transitions of power
<nikolar>
yeah, doesn't make them less roman
<heat>
i think you're starting to get my point
<nikolar>
actually that's a very roman thing lol
<heat>
and i love it
<nikolar>
eh no, not really
<nikolar>
or rather i see your point, it's just not correct
<heat>
names don't matter. that's the point.
<zid>
then why doesn't finland decide who rules russia
<heat>
the byzantines were little more roman than the ottomans
<zid>
finland is just a name
<nikolar>
byzantines were way more roman than any of the larpers who claimed they were
<heat>
yes, by the legitimacy of not having any, and the culture of being greek
<nikolar>
it's called a greco-roman culture for a reason
<nikolar>
they basically fused
<nikolar>
other than the language
<heat>
yes, if you forget the hate that romans had for greeks
<zid>
ERE just not the same as WRE
<nikolar>
btw latin continued to be spoken in the court of ere for centuries
<nikolar>
heat: they didn't?
<zid>
(and WRE died, so no, the pope can't declare germany to be roman, 500 years later)
<heat>
they absolutely did
<heat>
the greeks were gay and liked arts and shit
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<heat>
the romans liked manly stuff and building stuff and conquering
<zid>
romans very gay and liked art
<nikolar>
yeah they hated them so much that they wanted them to teach their children?
<heat>
who did?
<nikolar>
*romans hated greeks so much that they wanted them to teach their children?
<zid>
top tip, all the roman gods are just greek gods renamed
<nikolar>
lol more or less
<heat>
you had romans contemporary to the fall that said something like "the easternization/greekization of rome made us soft"
<zid>
you don't have no cultural connection if your entire philosophy is stolen from them
<heat>
nero was hated because he was too greek
<nikolar>
i think he was hated for many things
<nikolar>
they just piled "foreigner" onto the list
<heat>
yes, he was hated because he was an artsy greek boi