klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<gog> osx doesn't even support 32-bit anymore anyway
<gog> on x86
<gog> since like idk when, but i know this because i couldn't figure out why wine wasn't running an old game on her macbook when she had it
<geist> yah they had even never had full 64bit PPC support *really*. iirc it was limited in that you could use some limited apis
<geist> mostly for number crunching i guess
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<moon-child> like x32 kinda?
<heat> x32 is totally an undervalued thing
<zid> I keep meaning to make a new gentoo but on x32
<zid> should I do it now
<moon-child> hotspot has its own thing which is kinda like x32 but better
<moon-child> it stores pointers in 32 bits, but because of alignment can address a full 32gb heap
<moon-child> also I think it can transparently migrate over if you use more than 32gb memory
<moon-child> don't quote me on the latter though
<heat> zid, full x32 sounds like hell
<heat> and should die pretty quickly on web browsers I assume, possibly linkers and compilers too
<zid> let's find out? :P
<heat> what if we don't
<heat> let's watch steamed hams variations
<bslsk05> ​www.youtube.com: Steamed Hams but it's a German Expressionist Film - YouTube
<bslsk05> ​www.youtube.com: Steamed Hams but it was banned in the USSR - YouTube
<heat> steamed hams is a "what if millennials used 100% of their brain"
<zid> I'm not zoomer enough to click any of these
<bslsk05> ​www.youtube.com: Steamed Hams but the frames are re-organized so they're singing Call Me Maybe - YouTube
<heat> zid, steamed hams is not a zoomer thing
<heat> it's too long for gen z
<bslsk05> ​www.youtube.com: Steamed Hams but every frame is sorted by pitch - YouTube
<zid> This is going well
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<zid> yea I think you need to do an annoying install where you can't actually chroot into it cus of the arch mismatch
<zid> and I cbf with that
<heat> in theory if your kernel supports x32 it should work?
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<zid> oh sure like I have kernels like that coming out of my ears
<zid> I was assured I would not get support, that you were watching youtube
<zid> so I already deleted it
<gog> steamed HAMS
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<pmaz> if i start making an operating system with grub, how difficult would it be to switch to a custom-written bootloader down the track?
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<Ermine> If you use multiboot, it would amount to writing a bootloader which implements multiboot
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<pmaz> thank you
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<gog> hi
<zid> ni
<gog> he ni
<zid> My body is doing a weird, I keep waking up after 6 hours, naturally, but still tired
<gog> sucks
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<bslsk05> ​cohost.org: cohost! - "taking the deepest possible breath"
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<zid> tl;dr: Weird dual boot tech by pheonix that puts one OS into S3 then swaps the 'current' memory set by adjusting the e820 to show half the ram as reserved to each of the two guests.
<nortti> seemed to be ¾ vs ¼ but yeah
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<heat> steamed hams
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<Ermine> gog: may I pet you
<heat> no
<zid> no
<zid> heat can you buy vindaloo in portugal
<Ermine> :'(
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<heat> zid, yes
<heat> but can you buy a router in portugal? no, absolutely not
<heat> packets are hand-routed
<zid> I'd rather have vindaloo
<zid> so that's fine
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<heat> pope drip
<Ermine> lol
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<gog> Ermine: yes
<zid> 2 vs. 1
* Ermine pets gog
* gog prr
<zid> Ermine is undermining our democratic process
<Ermine> I love democracy
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<Ermine> I love republic
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<heat> least russian russian
<heat> that being said
<heat> COUNT THE VOTE, COUNT THE VOTE
<mjg> ey
<nortti> vote the count
<heat> mjg, are you italian american now?
<heat> ey, watchu doin here
<mjg> wadda ya mean
<Ermine> Once everybody gets petted I will lay down the powers you have given me!
<mjg> something tells me you have not watched The Sopranos
<heat> i've watched like half of the sopranos out of youtube shorts
<heat> and breaking bad too
<Ermine> Tbh I turned it off after first 40 minutes
<mjg> Ermine: OH
<mjg> it is geuninely i great show
<Ermine> you great show?
<heat> checkmate
<heat> mjg defeated with facts and linguistics
<mjg> Ermine: YEZ
<Ermine> XD
<mjg> i'm sayin, if you are watching tv, like most pople do, sopranos is definitely one of the things to try out
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<mjg> quality aside, the show is hilarious
<Ermine> Maybe I should continue watching it...
<Ermine> Anyway I rarely watch tv
<Ermine> intro song is cool though
<heat> the guy who plays tony is dead
<heat> i hope i ruined it for ya
<Ermine> F
<zid> Everybody who has ever watched the sopranos is dying or dead
<mjg> BOOMER SHOW innit
<Ermine> Prozac
<mjg> ya know how there is replication crisis in science
<mjg> there would be 10 x of that if someone tried out the "cs" results
<zid> cs papers are just "hey we actually wrote something down for a change!"
<zid> "I sped up this one program on this one machine by 4%!" "No you can't buy the machine" "Or the program" "Actually we don't even use this machines anymore"
<zid> "and this software has been replaced so it doesn't need this feature, either"
* Ermine reads a paper which uses DSGE model
<mjg> zid: key point is that they are lying
<mjg> zid: "we hand-selected benchez which show improvement and excluded the ones which show how we suck"
<mjg> and even the ones which supposedly win, probably don't if you look into it
<Ermine> You haven't seem how openly DSGEs suck
<mjg> admittedly no
<mjg> but i read my share of page et al replacement policy papers
<mjg> every single one claims it's the best shit ever
<mjg> and they all suck
<mjg> well it may happen to be tiny-wfu ultimately does not, that one i did not evaluate yet
<bslsk05> ​marginalrevolution.com: A Big and Embarrassing Challenge to DSGE Models - Marginal REVOLUTION
<zid> data science.. generic.. ecephilitis?
<zid> oh, made up econ stuff
<zid> duh, of course econ stuff is made up, econ is made up
<Ermine> >:(
<zid> Like, genuinely, they're no better than chance at the thing they supposedly have trained for
<zid> infact, a lot of them are *worse* than chance
<mjg> i see men of culture
<zid> It's just grifters all the way up and down
<zid> capitalism yay
<mjg> you summed up IT
<Ermine> Now I know I'm doing made up stuff thx
<zid> yw
<zid> top tip, give fake advice and hedge against them following it
<zid> make some money
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<Ermine> the what
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<zxrom> What is the best GUI style in the history of computers?
<Ermine> win95
<zxrom> win2000
<zid> win95
<zid> merry 19:19
<mjg> atari tos
<nortti> I like both win2000 as well as mac platinum
<zid> I need an atari st bee cursor for windows 10
<zid> if anyone has one
<mjg> forgot about the bee
<mjg> i would not mind it
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<mjg> "stupid shit i read in CS books and papers" would be a great blog
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<heat> holy cow
<heat> how is win95 the best style
<heat> bad opinions man
<mjg> genz you were not even born at the time so your opinion is invalid
<mjg> maybe a general article on dangers of trusting Esteemed Authors
<mjg> aka "people are notorious for talking out of their ass"
<heat> shut up millennial
<kof123> style? i want POWER
<kof123> may or may not be stylish
<mjg> heat: respect your elders!
<mjg> youth today!
<mjg> hm "people you are looking up to talk out of their ass"?
<mjg> is this publishable in acm :X
<Ermine> heat: idk why but I like win9x style. Even though I almost never used win9x in my life.
<mjg> wait that was serious?
<mjg> wtf mate
* Ermine shrugs
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<nortti> Ermine: do you conceptualize win9x as separate from windows 2000, or are you grouping all post-95 pre-luna UIs as one thing?
<Ermine> nortti: I'm grouping it together
<nortti> makes sense
<mjg> windows 2000 was in the general style but even then it had a distinct look
<Ermine> Imo win2000 had some differences from winME (and other win9x), but they not very significant
<mjg> perosnally i liked it
<mjg> at least one of the settings you could use there, i don't remember if it was the default
<nortti> I've only really used 95 and 2000, so can't say about the later 9x, but to me they're quite distinct. wouldn't surprise me if a lot of what I think of a 2000 things (gradients in title bars, overall a bit lighter colour scheme) are just general post-95 things or even "you are not running at 16 colours" things
<mjg> even so, i can't get over how a GUI-oriented system did not have multiple workspaces
<Ermine> Gradients in title bars were since win98
<Ermine> I literally have win95, win98, winME and win2000 virtual machines, so I compared them all
<nortti> nice
<zid> I always used solid black titlebars so 95 is good enough for me
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<Ermine> but yeah, win98 and later has richer style
<zid> I've not been using 'classic theme' for 2-3 weeks now :(
<zid> after my entire life using it
<nortti> how come?
<zid> changed from w7 to w10
<Ermine> mjg: I've once read in wikipedia that win32 had support for virtual desktops, but it was exposed to users only in win10
<mjg> wut
<mjg> that's even weirder
<heat> i like windows 11's style, then windows 10's style, then probably vista even though it's a bit dated, then 7
<nortti> I think the windows 10 virtual desktop thing isn't even using win32 virtual desktop
<heat> all the other ones are IMO pure ass
<nortti> because it had some annoying limitation
<Ermine> I installed win11 on my tablet and almost instantly reverted it back to 10
<nortti> my tablet, a microsoft first-party device introduced 2017, is ineligible for win11 lol
<Ermine> Everything is annoyingly round in win11
<heat> yes, i like it
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<Ermine> I don't
<nortti> heat: opinions on aqua in early os x (10.0 - 10.4)?
<kof123> eh..there was 3rd party tray icon thing for win9x at least, for virtual desktops
<kof123> no idea if it used whatever supposed "present" functionality
<Ermine> nortti: that system requirements amused me too
<zid> w11 is w10 but with mandatory DRM hardware so that their software partners, aka netflix, can eventually limit playback to windvine level 3
<heat> nortti, i'f i'm looking at the right thing, it's ok but ofc a bit dated
<Ermine> zid: so no drm content on linux?
<nortti> https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20180501-00/?p=98645 ah there, "If the virtual desktop feature had been built out of actual window manager desktop objects, you would be pretty unhappy. Windows in separate window manager desktops cannot interact with each other, so you couldn’t drag from one window to another, or copy/paste between them. A window cannot move between window manager desktops, so
<bslsk05> ​devblogs.microsoft.com: Windows 10 virtual desktops are a window management feature, not a security feature - The Old New Thing
<nortti> you would be stuck with whatever desktop the window originally appeared in."
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<zid> you can widevine level 1 on linux, thanks to a binary plugin
<zid> which means no 4k etc
<heat> I do like macOS's GUI in general, I think it ages pretty well
<heat> both because they know their shit and apple sets trends most of the time
<Ermine> nortti: ah well
<kof123> re: the devblogs link: i would guess the other thing would then simply hide/show windows, because i do not recall being unable to copy/paste
<nortti> < heat> I do like macOS's GUI in general, I think it ages pretty well ← agreed
<zid> why does it have
<nortti> I do think the very early os x was a bit too heavy on bright colours and translucency tho
<zid> coloured gems that look like mini/maxi/close
<zid> but that don't do anything
<Ermine> Imagine engineering thing that turned out to be useless
<zid> windows 10's 'drag the window border' hit detection is off by a few pixels and it bugs me.
<nortti> I love this picture, because itunes used to be used as an example of "how not to do os x UI"
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<zid> I like things that work.
<Ermine> wow, osx had ie?
<nortti> aye, it was the official browser on macs for first couple years of os x's life
<zid> yea osx had ie
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<nortti> it's not quite the internet explorer you had on windows tho, it's a divergent codebase with its own standards compliant (for the time) rendering engine called tasman
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<Ermine> more wow
<nortti> which microsoft never ported to any other platform and kinda just killed off when apple created safari aiui
<kof123> i swear solaris had ie...
<nortti> it did, I think 4 or 5
<GeDaMo> Yeah, I saw IE on Solaris
<kof123> i was expecting a wow
<zid> worst part of w10 so far
<heat> cringe
<bslsk05> ​devblogs.microsoft.com: Stupid cmd.exe tricks: Changing directories with forward slashes instead of backslashes - The Old New Thing
<nortti> (sorry for shitty image quality. don't have ie 5 for os x on hand atm, only the os 9 version)
<Ermine> nortti: afaik apple always has been strict on app style consistency
<nortti> somewhat
<Ermine> People, did you hear winNT5 startup sound (not 2000/ME one)?
<nortti> itunes and quicktime had their own look, and internet explorer 5 for mac actually looked nothing like anything else on the plaform yet (even if it ended up having similarities with aqua)
<zid> (those are all open and running on the same machine, it's not composited)
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<bslsk05> ​twitter: <jimmyg> 1/ Today marks the twentieth anniversary of the introduction of Microsoft's Internet Explorer 5 for Mac. This was both the most important release of Internet Explorer for the Mac, and the last release. Here are some anecdotes and thoughts from an insider’s perspective. [thread] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENhSBPSX0AEYc3A.jpg
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<geist> interesting story
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<bslsk05> ​pub.sortix.org: add_leap_seconds(3)
<sortie> leap seconds aren't real, big OS is lying to you
<klange> Leap seconds are a scam by big clock.
<sortie> big astronomy
<zid> see this is why you should program in japanese
<zid> SVO is bad
<sortie> I like how I handle if they ever were to insert a *negative* leap second
<sortie> if (!add_leap_seconds(&tv.tv_sec)) {
<sortie> /* You finally, really did it. You maniacs! You blew it up! God damn
<sortie> you. God damn you all to hell. */
<sortie> I will be issuing I told ya so's from the burning ruins of civilization
<clever> there is an irc server i used to run, it made the mistake of not using a monotonic clock for ping tracking
<clever> if the clock goes back even 1 second, it mass disconnects for ping timeout, because the math underflowed
<heat> leap seconds? more like
<heat> leap bullshit
<EthicsGradient> there's a tom scott video about this
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<heat> there's a tom scott video on everything
<heat> <vague central london british voice> oh you know, computers, and time, and localization, and interesting problems
<zid> The term is SSB
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