klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<klange> My main annoyance with Minix is it's too piecemeal. It pulls in tons of BSD stuff to make the complete userspace. Feels very "draw the rest of the ***ing owl" to me.
<klange> I think that complaint is specific to modern Minix 3, the older versions are better.
<sortie> Oh I totally hear klange here
<heat> well, draw the rest of the fucking owl is most of UNIXes out there
<sortie> The best part of osdev is that it's an excuse to learn basically anything I'm interested in
<heat> Open/Net/FreeBSD all draw each other's owls
<sortie> DNS? Yep. TCP. Can do. POSIX weirdness? Yep. Compilers? Totally. JPEG? Yup. compression yeah.
<heat> Illumos/Solaris/SunOS/SVR/BSD did the same
<klange> Open/Net/FreeBSD aren't intended as teaching tools, though :)
<heat> the only minimally inventive OS out there is GNU
<heat> but then they stole Linux
<brunothedev> gnu hurd
<sortie> I like to think my OS can serve as a teaching tool - not because I'm trying to be done - but because it's a coherent self-contained thing
<brunothedev> though no one uses it
<klange> GNU Hurd: I seriously though it would get 64-bit support before Toaru did.
<sortie> Like, you know, just not being super weird, complex, and inconsistent -- that's what you want from a teaching tool
<brunothedev> sortie: using c++ on a unix strikes as a weird choice for me for some reason
<klange> Though, to hurd's credit, it can run Xfce...
<sortie> C++ is used lots of places
<sortie> For me it's just the kernel though
<sortie> User-space is C
<brunothedev> but on unix it does have a reputation for bloat
<sortie> Honestly not
<sortie> Classic Unix is nothing compared to the modern beasts out there
<brunothedev> but there is a reason linus rejected it
<heat> SVR4 was both great and horrible
<heat> pick yer poison
<klange> C++ is seen as having lots of footguns around features that have historically been problematic for a kernel, and for a long time there were enough of those that you ended up writing C with name mangling more than you were really writing C++.
<heat> ^^
<heat> this is essentially my kernel
<sortie> Yeah that's why I ended up migrating my C++ user-space to C
<sortie> It was basically already C
<heat> some classes here and there, some C++ fancyness here and there, but mostly very C-like
<sortie> The kernel does use some key C++ features like classes and scoped mutexes and so on
<heat> partly because I hate the whole modern C++ shebang
<sortie> Yeah #!/usr/bin/c++ is so weird
<heat> I do funnily enough use some exceptions in some userspace stuff I have
<brunothedev> hehe "#!/usr/bin/g++"
<klange> tcc supports this :)
<heat> partly because its the classic userspace stuff where dying works fine, and partly because I'm not up for reimplementing good bits of the standard library
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<heat> most C programs just reinvent the wheel for data structures using some shitty realloc loop
<heat> no ty.
<heat> BSD at least gives you decent data structures in the libc AFAIK
<brunothedev> c, c++, all bad! Gonna write my os in HolyC
<heat> but POSIX stuff is laughable at best
<nortti> are you saying one process-wide hash table is not enough?
<heat> lmao, exactly
<klange> obviously the right choice here is to write your own compiler for your own language
<brunothedev> i cant say it here, but look up "terry a. davis receives a call"
<klange> I'd rather not.
<brunothedev> on youtube
<brunothedev> klange: oh why?
<brunothedev> soemone calls terry to talk about (G)lendale (C)ommunity (C)ollege
<klange> Let me rephrase that.
<klange> Please do not talk about Terry Davis here.
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<brunothedev> bro talked with "sudo" 💀
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<brunothedev> dude12312414: #relatable (when i had a 2gb machine)
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<heat> for this evening's stupid POSIX trivia: what happens on O_CREAT | O_DIRECTORY on existing systems?
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<heat> for the record, linux's open(2) man page is wrong about this lol
<zid> disregard linux, try xenis
<zid> xenix
<kof123> hmm...people have said bsd manpages are better, they are certainly as far as saying what various standards do IMO
<heat> bsd manpages say jack about this
<heat> POSIX says its undefined
<heat> freebsd's behavior changed relatively recently
<kof123> i just meant as far as "this function conforms to..."
<heat> omfg I can't believe this
<heat> the linux behavior is even more stupid than I thought
<heat> open("/tmp/dir_ocreatdir", O_RDONLY|O_CREAT|O_DIRECTORY, 0644) = -1 ENOTDIR (Not a directory) <-- ok, valid error right?
<heat> it created /tmp/dir_ocreatdir ............
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<geist> oldd\\\’
<geist> odd. wonder if it’s fs specific
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<zid> 8086:1539 is my intel gige just making a note t y
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<zid> It does infact, have three LEDs on the chip at least, need to figure out if they're wired to the actual connector I guess
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<gog> goge
<gog> gogabit ethernet
<zid> doesn't look like it
<zid> guess I can't hack the driver to make my link light green instead of orange
<zid> I could turn it off though
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<Ermine> gog: may I pet you?
<gog> yes
* Ermine pets gog
<zid> gog: I found a new lifegoal for yo
<zid> Consider the term 'domestic housewife' and its implications. It implies the existence of feral housewives. Goals.
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<gog> hmmm yesss
<gog> i was a feral housewife for awhile i think
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<gog> primary school??
<gog> i didn't learn these until uni
<gog> although i do fully support introducing more advanced math concepts earlier
<zid> I need to get some scissors and cut all these shipping labels up and tape them to this envelope, but the man isn't coming until tomorrow morning, so my brain is "you can just stay up until 6am and do it then"
<zid> I am A+ tier executive function
<gog> i am not
<gog> i'm trying to do research for my next work task but it's not going well
<gog> my brain is fried from debugging something earlier
<gog> and i'm a little worried that our latest deployment is bad
<gog> i want ice cream
<heat> what?
<gog> you heard me
<heat> you want a full UNIX path walking test suite?
<gog> yes but no
<bslsk05> ​gist.github.com: namei.c · GitHub
<gog> i want a cup of rugbrauð ice cream
<sakasama> Only a cup?
<gog> yeahhh
<gog> it's got a lot of sugar
<gog> i'm already over my limit for sugar this week
<gog> YOLO
<zid> why do you have a sugar limit
<sakasama> Why is it a weekly limit, too? I don't think diabetes works that way.
<gog> it's not diabetes
<gog> just trying to cut back but not limit myself entirely
<zid> I have to add sugar to things to not wither away
<sakasama> Also, isn't the meaning of YOLO usually in the implication that one should abandon restrictions in order to experience more?
<gog> i mean i am in this case
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<Ermine> YOLO indeed
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<gog> do it
<Ermine> restraint is overrated
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<zid> man, I want a vegan bbq
<zid> I could murder some toast rn
<gog> i had mushroom and butter bruschetta for lunch
<zid> is that middle class toast
<heat> most definitely
<gog> yes
<gog> it's unnecessarily fancy toast
<zid> do you still get half a pack of butter
<zid> or are the mushrooms in lieu
<gog> alongside
<heat> gog, do you speak like a southern californian girl
<zid> omg like, totally?
<heat> totallyyyyyyyyyyyyy
<zid> heat speaks like a chatbot
<heat> most certainly
<heat> if you speak with me for long enough I also turn racist, as a good chatbot would do
<zid> can confirm
<gog> omg i do noooooot
<gog> staaap it
<zid> speaking of heat being a racist, I need to walk over to manus at some point
<Ermine> What is is special in how southern californian girl are speaking?
* Ermine wants to hear
<Ermine> s/girl/girls/
<gog> Ermine: vocal fry, syllable elongation
<gog> vowel shifting in a language that doesn't need it
<gog> oh may gaaaaaahd
<gog> watch the film "Clueless" for an instruction in 90's valley girl culture
<bslsk05> ​www.youtube.com <no title>
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<heat> this is perfect
<gog> yes, spot on
<heat> in 2023 you need to pair any of this with poorly pronounced starbucks drinks and bougie foods
<heat> like a mushroom and butter bruschetta
<Ermine> gog, heat: thank you
<heat> Ermine, join a trendy SF company/startup and you'll get the SF mocha latte valley girl vibes very quickly
<gog> wish it was still 2013 so i could go get a north face vest to go with my leggings and uggs
<gog> oh oh and a live laugh love tat
<heat> on the other hand "name's paul, from newcastle, luv me footy, luv going down to the pub with the lads, luv me pints, 'ate the french, 'ate the irish" is the absolute reverse valley girl
<zid> that's not a newcastle accent
<heat> how do you type a newcastle accent
<heat> to me bald fat englishmen sound exactly the same m8, sorry
<zid> add "you know" 10 times
<zid> //a went duːn ðə tuːn ənd bɔːt a ʃɔːt//
<bslsk05> ​www.uv.es: Examples of Geordie | English Accents
<heat> it sounds funkier than I remember
<zid> also every third word should be knobhead
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<gog> missing manchester
<gog> my fav english accent
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<zid> Right, done, fucking brexit making me do arts and crafts
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<heat> mjg, hello, are hardening checks on memcpy/copyin/etc prohibitively expensive?
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<mjg> heat: yea
<mjg> they add massive overhead to the routine, but you wont know if it sucks as is
* mjg gestures at rep
<mjg> perhasp smap-shafted copy user is tolerable
<mjg> with the extra work
<heat> that sucks
<heat> did you test the linux usercopy hardening stuff?
<heat> or some freebsd stuff that definitely sucks?
<mjg> linux has usercopy hardening
<mjg> and it shows on the profile
<mjg> snmalloc shitters wanted "memcpy" hardening and they downplayed the cost
<mjg> which appears to be at least 40% for most common copies
<heat> what's snmalloc?
<heat> old UNIX thing?
<heat> ah no, new microsoft malloc?
<bslsk05> ​github.com: snmalloc/GuardedMemcpy.md at main · microsoft/snmalloc · GitHub
<mjg> they missed the part where their malloc suckkz
<mjg> erm, memcpy
<mjg> thye are comparing *their* bad memcpy vs their bad memcpy + checks, which results in an artificially lowered cost
<mjg> as i noted several times, every time you get apaper or somethin' with perf claims, yuo have to expect they are lying
<heat> ye but is it measurable?
<mjg> > The worst regression is for redis with a 2-3% regression relative to snmalloc running without memcpy checks.
<mjg> and that's with their already shafted memcpy
<mjg> so real regression would be closer to 4
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<heat> 4%?
<heat> because if so, that's super cheap, i'll take it
<heat> in fact linux is probably much better
<heat> struct page *page = &page_map[(addr - PAGE_OFFSET) >> 12];
<heat> and now you have all the slab data you may ever want
<mjg> you have to assume there is other perf loss all over, so 4 is still downplaying it vs a codebase not doing stupid shit
<mjg> but you do you
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<zid> heat: your bait to make him say pessimal isn't working
<zid> try a new strat
<moon-child> rewrite it in python(tm)
<mjg> or add a zero cost abstraction
<moon-child> lol
<heat> are you trolling me
<heat> "vs a codebase not doing stupid shit"
<heat> hey guys, we fixed security vulnerabilities by not doing stupid shit
<sortie> I don't do stupid shit all the time and it works
<moon-child> I have not done stupid shit _at least_ 3 times
<moon-child> possibly 4
<heat> what if we could pay all this cost at compile time
<heat> with some oxidation-related language
<mjg> did someone say fearless concurrency?
<sortie> Now you're just naming currencies after Taylor Swift eras
<heat> the fearlesslest way to do concurrency is to have a big kernel lock
<heat> or is it fearlessmost
<moon-child> that wasn't very concurrency of you
<heat> i think it's fearlessmost
<mjg> OpenRust would do fearless by having 1 thread
<heat> being fast is insecure, too much headroom for races
<\Test_User> be so slow that nothing can comprimize the system - unplug it
<heat> and boy you don't want to be racist, or the suckless devs knock at your door with a brand new tiki torch
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<bslsk05> ​github.com: Remove OpenBSD from CI (#599) · microsoft/snmalloc@c304ddf · GitHub
<heat> they cant catch a break
<bslsk05> ​reviews.freebsd.org: ⚙ D24645 sched_ule: rate limit work stealing
<heat> seriously? depessimize?
<mjg> heat: i had seen it
<mjg> what's up with the ule omment
<heat> depessimize mate
<heat> you typing: "optimi... *too positive* *deletes word*"
<mjg> learn some basic language
<mjg> dag
<mjg> something is *sensible* and is made faster -> optimized
<mjg> something performs like i shit and is made faster -> depessimized
<mjg> in the above case we are dealin' with the latter
* Ermine is pessimalist
<gog> hi
<heat> gog
<gog> no
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<pog> i'm poggin
<heat> goggers
<zid> pogmatic
<zid> hydropogic
<zid> greased pogming
<mjg> > Glitches and Braindamage
<mjg> actual section in termcap(5)
<moon-child> at least they're honest
<mjg> usr.bin/tip/tip/tip.c: /* XXX preserve previous braindamaged behavior */
<mjg> well well
<zid> I saw that the other day somehow
<zid> lots of pam stuff is like.. internal only and the pam people know how to use it and what for
<heat> yeah i did send you this
<heat> yeah but, I mean, if its internal then *why have a manpage*??
<zid> so you can look it up and found out it's internal :P
<zid> not that there's no docs
<mjg> does this ship with pam by default for people to enable
<heat> mjg, gotta hand it to you, freebsd path resolution stuff (and open(2) stuff in general) is pretty damn POSIX compliant
<mjg> lol
<heat> not even linux is this correct
<mjg> "correct"
<heat> nor net-ohhurrdurrwelovePOSIX-bsd
<mjg> uh?
<mjg> i would expect most accidents to have stayed
<heat> as far as I've heard netbsd has some fame for taking POSIX correctness seriously
<mjg> what's your test
<bslsk05> ​gist.github.com: namei.c · GitHub
<mjg> what's net output
<heat> wdym
<mjg> > Linux returns -EISDIR if dir, else creates a file and *RETURNS AN ERROR (ENOTDIR)*. ?
<mjg> wut
<heat> yep
<mjg> output from netbsd is what i asked
<mjg> you should probably reoprt
<heat> yeah i'm thinking of just fixing it myself, should be Simple(tm) and fun
<mjg> ye i meant with a patch :)
<mjg> ;s probably going to be a one ilner
<mjg> lol confirmed
<mjg> wtf
<mjg> great find mate
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<heat> lol thanks
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<mjg> so dpaste what you got from netbsd
<heat> dpaste what exactly?
<heat> this prog only has output if it fails and dies (thru err())
<mjg> so where does it die on net
<heat> it's a test suite in the horrible classical UNIX/BSD sense of making up some half-assed scripts
<bslsk05> ​gist.github.com: namei.c · GitHub
<heat> wait what did you confirm exactly?
<mjg> open("/tmp/lolcrap", O_CREAT | O_DIRECTORY | O_RDONLY, 0644);
<mjg> created a reg file
<mjg> may i suggest you create a directory under which you perform these tests
<heat> 1) yes 2) does need some extra effort 3) the prog cleans up
<heat> but yes mkdtemp or something would be a good idea
<mjg> werid tho, i would expect some test suites like ltp to test for this shit
<heat> dude not even POSIX tests for this
<heat> macOS is POSIX certified and its where I found the most problems
<heat> ???
<mjg> the old version is certified
<mjg> but perhaps you are misinterpreting the standard?
<heat> yes, I've had people test 10.4, 10.5, and current macOS
<heat> considering linux passes 99% of tests, freebsd passes 100%, and netbsd passes 99%, I doubt it
<heat> in fact, I directly quote it in some good bits
<heat> oh and sortix also passes 99% of what's implemented
<mjg> note none of these are compliant
<mjg> :p
<heat> they are not
<mjg> how is onyx doin
<mjg> did it crash
<heat> i developed this exactly to find problems
<heat> so Onyx... it do be doing
<mjg> again, good prog , but i would assume this kind of stuff is already available
<heat> part of the refactoring i'm trying to do to my namei code
<netbsduser> i love namei
<zid> I love ktamari
<netbsduser> i borrowed a page from svr4 and decided that vnodes don't get a special caching scheme
<netbsduser> they get retained in name caches instead
<nortti> < mjg> note none of these are compliant ← haven't there been compliant linux distros recently?
<zid> disregard linux, acquire posix?
<zid> gnu plusix
<mjg> nortti: posix compliant? i never heardo f any, nr see any reason for sanyone to make one
<heat> i think old RHEL was posix compliant
<nortti> unix certified
<heat> alpine is also On The Path I think
<heat> sorry, adelie?
<Ermine> heat: BusyBox is not compliant
<heat> anyway it's how I found out about this bug: https://cgit.adelielinux.org/musl/tree/src/unistd/renameat.c?h=posix-rebased
<bslsk05> ​cgit.adelielinux.org: renameat.c « unistd « src - musl - The musl libc tree (WIP / dev branches)
<Ermine> Adelie strives indeed
<heat> mjg, two fstatat's for a rename!
<heat> and that's the fast path m8
<mjg> rename is a slow path
<mjg> :X
<heat> is current linux slow here?
<heat> I think it just takes seqlocks now, right?
<zid> rename is not a hot path
<zid> wake me up when my system slows down cus rename is too slow
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<d316d> have there been any practical osdev book releases in 2023? i remember there was one that looked promising that was yet to be published but i dont remember the name
<d316d> what is most complete practical book on x64 osdev?
<d316d> i have read all the osdev wiki books
<d316d> ones that matter anyway
<d316d> is there better tuts than poncho series?
<netbsduser> d316d: i don't know of such a book
<zid> osdev is osdev
<zid> the details of the arch are in the manual for the arch
<netbsduser> and the tutorials all mysteriously stop midway through the dull details of hardware initialisation before getting on to the real osdev
<zid> if you just want the "x86_64 parts" then the intel sdm has it all, well organized
<d316d> netbsduser so theres no book on real osdev?
<zid> otherwise you can read stuff from the 80s about microkernels and monolithic kernels and scheduling and stuff based on minix or whatever it is they wrote
<zid> the only real difference is smp
<netbsduser> d316d: there are plenty, try Design & Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System, Windows Internals, or The Magic Garden Explained
<d316d> i have read first two already
<netbsduser> that's very erudite
<zid> you're more well read than most of the rest of us already then :P
<netbsduser> for a first stab at the game i think picking a book like one of these and religiously following it is useful
<d316d> i didnt particularly understand every detail tho
<zid> getting your hands dirty teaches you 10x as much imo
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<heat> netbsduser, i would say the opposite
<heat> following something religiously is an easy way to get a bad clone of whatever you're following
<mjg> and that thing is probably already bad :X
<heat> yes, which is why you get the Solaris Internals book
<heat> guaranteed quality
<mjg> check out how solaris does mount point traversal
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<moon-child> maybe
<moon-child> if all the things are bad
<moon-child> it's a sign that it's impossible to make good things and we should stop trying
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<zid> stop trying to make things, or stop trying to make good thing
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<klange> there is a post in the forum moderation queue where someone is trying to write an EFI application in assembly and I... can't even.
<zid> That sounds like a good weekend project
<zid> if you already know both assembly and efi but.. I doubt that's really the case
<moon-child> in order to become ONE WITH THE MACHINE i write EFI APPLICATIONS IN ASSEMBLY and put the CPU UP MY ASS because me and my MACHINE ARE ONE
<zid> yea that's the reality of most people who are writing assembly
<heat> Thank you moon-child, very cool!
<zid> I nEedD To Do iT in AssemBly BecaAuse The NSA arE reAding My CompiILER
<zid> my teeth won't stop hurting unless I resolve the EFI conspiracy
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<klange> the nsa are reading your assembler, too
<moon-child> lol
<zid> don't tell them that
<moon-child> apparently nasm supports (rax+1)*8 as an address
<zid> you'll get queue entries where they're doing it in machine code instead
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