klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<klange> If you want to avoid the NSA, you need to follow xkcd 378.
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<kazinsal> the mossad/not-mossad threat model is eternal
<kazinsal> praise be unto mickens, may his light guide us through the d arkness and out the other side
<pog> the nsa can lick my taint
<kazinsal> sshhhhh, the NSA wizard may be into that
<pog> :9
<sakasama> Your request has reached upper management and they have informed me they do not require your permission to perform said licking.
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<zid> where heat
<zid> link that to him when he shows up
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<heat> mjg, how's the status of virtualization on FreeBSD/NetBSD?
<heat> does bhyve(I think that's what freebsd has?) work more or less like KVM?
<mjg> it works fine for varous bsd and linxu guests, but it is turbo cumbersome to use
<mjg> imagine using qemu by hand
<heat> ... erm
<heat> we use qemu by hand here
<mjg> lol
<mjg> well there you have it
<heat> is it like qemu-system-x86_64 -machine pc,accel=bhyve or something?
<heat> did netbsd steal this from you or is it a FreeBSD exclusive
<mjg> netbsd has its own kvm-equivalent named nvmm
<mjg> which ultimatley works with qemu
<Ermine> Afaik netbsd added lua support to the kernel
<mjg> except it got abandoned by the author andi don' thin is being developed
<mjg> if anything dragonflybsd got a nvmm port which is *never* than the netbsd one
<Ermine> Sad story
<mjg> i don't know what bhyve is doing internally nor how does it compare to kvm
<mjg> freebsd does *not* use qemu here
<heat> so i've been thinking about installing one of the BSDs on my tiny rpi zero 2w, but i'd like to possibly run Onyx on it in the future, so one with decent hypervisor support is a good idea
<heat> wth does freebsd use if not qemu?
<puck> bhyve
<zid> [15:10] <zid> where heat
<zid> I need to increase my coke input
<zid> dr pepper not as acidic, I might still get some RUST
<mjg> heat: i don't think any of the bsds support virt on anythin but amd64
<mjg> heat: there is wip to get bhyve running on arm64 though
<heat> wow cringe
<mjg> brah
<heat> x86_64 (and *amd64* even more so) is fucking cringe
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<mjg> the person who wrote nvmm used 'maxv' as a handle
<mjg> i suggest you check netbsd mailing list archives for some of the commentary :)
<heat> why?
<mjg> just do it
<heat> nike?
<puck> honestly surprised both amd and intel have their own virtualization extension, and even have that separation still
<heat> amd and intel have their own everything now
<heat> even the fucking address tagging extensions are different
<heat> it's rage inducing
<zid> well intel is dead now anyuway
<mjg> would not it be funny if the 64 bit stuff was all different
<zid> we're all amd only now
<mjg> as in both intel and amd having their own arch altogether
<mjg> x86-liek
<heat> mjg, how tf do you search in netbsd ml archives
<heat> i'm fairly sure there's no search functionality
<mjg> marc.info
<heat> aw
<heat> i hate that website
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<mjg> the site hates you mofo
<heat> lore.kernel.org >>
<mjg> wait linukkz doing smething better?
<heat> wtf i can't find shit on that guy
<mjg> they don't worry about it and do smethong less not productive
<heat> ok dad
* mjg pats heat on the head
<mjg> techniaclly i am old enough to be your father, should i come from a pathological background
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* sakasama hugs grandpa mjg.
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<geist> ugh, discord is really starting to much more aggressively push nitro on me
<geist> more and more flashing bits that you have to dismiss
* zid fires up the nitro disco ball
<GeDaMo> What's nitro?
<zid> discord premium
<GeDaMo> Ah
<geist> they keep adding new features that they then taunt you with
<heat> yeah this one was annoying
<geist> seems to be they pushed 2 or 3 new things in the last few weeks
<heat> (tip: you don't need to pay to theme your discord)
<geist> yah their themes aren't exactly what i want anyway. pretty close, but i really want to be able to manually set the colors
<geist> notably i never like light text on absolute black. i always bring up the background color to some sort of light grey or whatnot
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<geist> but seems most of their dark themes that aren't the basic 'dark' are basically black background around text
<geist> honestly irccloud does it perfectly: they use varying shades of dark to delineate various zones in the text, but never hard black
<zid> dark sidebar is still an option thank fuck
<GeDaMo> I hate this whole theming thing where you have to select from a list of themes or go digging around in some weird styling language
<zid> they removed it for a while and I had to riot
<geist> yah i dunno why they dont just let you individually select zone colors
<geist> at the end of the day it's probably just mostly CSS anyway
<geist> unless they have hard .png files or somewhat backing these things i guess
<zid> you can restyle discord with a mod
<zid> if you wanna rewrite their css
<geist> yah probably just does that right
<GeDaMo> I know Firefox uses CSS because I have to use it to remove annoyances :/
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<d316d> Hey. The Linux impl of BeFS is read-only, would my patch be accepted if I added write capability for that? Or is it a total abandoware? Latest changes were in 2002
<heat> probably abandonware
<heat> but why ask us?
<d316d> Ask who?
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<geist> us, as in this channel
<geist> oh they left
<mjg> i suspect there is already fuse-based befs rw
<mjg> and if not, the response would be to write one
<mjg> if anything bringing befs up might prop its removal :)
<geist> FWIW at least befs hasn't changed since 2002
<puck> ..i wonder if haiku did any upgrades
<geist> right, that'd be the main reason one would even want to have RW support on linux, to interop with haiku
<geist> otherwise RO is fine, because you use it to extract bits off your old beos disks
<mjg> :]
<mjg> if there were literaly no changes since 2002 then the thing is disconnected from the build
<mjg> and would require new porting effort to make it operatinal even as ro
<geist> haiku has a full driver which would probably be easy to wrap in a user space linux driver
<puck> oh actually
<bslsk05> ​git.kernel.org: kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git - Linux kernel source tree
<puck> i think haiku comes with a bfs fuse driver already
<mjg> clearly it is getting changes, but it also has a changelog file which is not updated since 2002
<mjg> perhaps that's what the above person wsa referring to
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<mjg> would be funny if the support was in fact rw now
<puck> i don't think so, bfs has some design things that don't mesh well; it'd be easy to check by seeing if it knows how to handle the indexes
<geist> yah i think i've used that linux driver from time to time, and it works well enough. befs isn't that complicated from a RO point of view. think of it as a fairly standard extent based inode tree thing with btrees for dirs and inodes located anywhere
<geist> for RW the indexes are the issue, yeah
<puck> yeah looks like it can't do indexing
<geist> oh and fairly generic attributes that might not mesh will with linux's notion
<mjg> it is ro
<mjg> befs_warning(sb,
<mjg> if (!sb_rdonly(sb)) {
<mjg> "No write support. Marking filesystem read-only");
<mjg> sb->s_flags |= SB_RDONLY;
<mjg> }
<mjg> the fuse point stands :>
<geist> yah and wouldn't be surprised if attributes aren't plumbed through
<geist> since i suspect that was before linux had suppor for generic attributes
<geist> wasn't i think until a more late 2000s thing that that got serious outside of mac or beos
<geist> (which is not entirely unrelated, lots of beos folks were mac people)
<puck> yeah no attr suspport
<puck> geist: i do feel like beos kinda took it to the next level tho :p
<geist> oh yeah at the time it was quite sophisticated
<geist> now a lot of the stuff it did is kinda normal, but back in 1998 or so you were comparing with win95 or mac classic
<geist> or some ridiculously priced workstation
<puck> idk, i don't think any other os really did the "database" thing
<puck> i guess WinFS is the closest equivalent
<geist> oh sure i'm mostly talking about beos as a whole
<puck> (but inherently i do believe these kinds of schemes would fail these days; everyone would just use their own extensions instead of standardizing)
<geist> yah dbg basically reimplemented it at apple a few years later but as a user space thing: ie, spotlight
<geist> not as elegant, but basically solves the same problems, just with some lag
<puck> i checked my copies of the hobbit bebox prototype and they seem to not mention attrs, so that wasn't a thing they had from the start. i wonder when befs became .. befs
<geist> when dbg started at beos and then wrote it. i think 1996+ era
<puck> ahh
<geist> i joined in 1999 and bfs was of course finished at that point
<puck> i should finish my hobbit emulator
<geist> hobbit bebox era was think of it as beos v1, and there was a fairly substantial rewrite by v2
<puck> yeah. i looked at the list of hobbit bebox kcalls and they .. do not make a lot of sense
<geist> 95/96 they had switched to PPC and were making the ppc bebox
<geist> yah do you have a hobbit bebox? they're rare as heck
<puck> i do not
<bslsk05> ​github.com: pmc-cloud-tools/icache at master · brendangregg/pmc-cloud-tools · GitHub
<puck> i do have: very spotty hyperfocus
<geist> i only know of one in existance
<puck> and: a rust-based hobbit bebox emulator
<geist> i have a pair of ppc beboxen, but the hobbits there were probably 10s of them at that
<puck> somehow three hard drive dumps from three different hobbit beboxen appeared online
<puck> i sent an email to someone that allegedly had one to see if they could dump the bootrom (the one part i've stubbed out, which is annoying, because it's what parses the filesystem and loads the (ELF) kernel)
<geist> ah. if you run into trouble i have a buddy that has one that probably has the capability of pulling the rom
<geist> (unless it's the same person)
<geist> but i do remember there was some sort of pre-bfs filesystem. iirc the boot rom on the PPC beboxes also only knew how to parse that
<geist> so there was some one off tool to generate boot floppies for ppc beboxes that it recognized. i think it wasn't capable of booting from a CDROM as a result
<puck> this guy http://www.typewritten.org/Projects/Be/9308000058.html (last update of the site is april 2022, afaict)
<bslsk05> ​www.typewritten.org: BeBox Rev. A (Hobbit) - S/N 9308000058 - Typewritten Software
<puck> i wonder if i could get the ppc card emulated
<geist> ah not the same guy. so yeah like i said i have another buddy that might be able to get it to you as well
<geist> also that reminds me i should consider pulling the rom for the PPC bebox, if someone hasdn't dong it before
<puck> i think the ppc beboxen have firmware updates available
<geist> oh possible
<puck> but yeah, it'd be appreciated; i susspect it's not too magic, and i can just do it in rust (i'm already manually loading the ELF, and it is a normal ELF)
<puck> (it even has symbols!)
<puck> the reason i dumped all the kcalls is i want to write a userspace emulator to solve the chicken-egg problem: i have a hobbit beos C compiler. for the hobbit beos
<puck> some day i oughta appear a bebox here. or maybe 3d-print a replica. it's a good aesthetic
<zid> oh bebox is a box running beos?
<puck> not just
<puck> with, yes, the first instance of modern Gamer(TM) aesthetic: two LED strips that light up based on CPU usage
<zid> can I turn them off? :P
<zid> people are finally starting to add hw buttons for this
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<puck> iirc no, but i haven't really played with one much
<puck> the only time was at the home computer museum in Helmond, which had one running some beta. i accidentally KDL'd it but the KDL was on the serial port so it just visually hung
<kof123> you could run beos ppc on some powermac systems and some other things (used to have one) ...quite happy to see this conversation, it is the one thing i joke about "real hw i used to have, no emulator" ...
<geist> heh yeah. you could KDL it with a ctrl-prtscren or something
<kof123> probably not unobtanium, but dont know what crazy prices nowadays might be
<geist> the major bummer about the bebox that held it back was the cache controller was basically faulty, and there was no L2, i believe
<puck> hmm
<geist> just L1 between the cpus. so there wa a lot of cases where running both cores on a task ran < 1.0
<puck> i'm going to have to do some fun experimenting once i have proper multithreading working for my hobbit emulator
<geist> but one of the fnu things you could do with beos was in the Pulse app which was just showing a bar per cpu, you could individually turn each cpu off with a toggle button
<puck> because .. i'm not sure AT&T documented their cache
<geist> so it was fairly common to just turn off a cpu
<puck> kof123: oh boy i should get an old world ppc mac for that some day
<zid> watch out for the old world macs, they're way more venemous
<zid> venomous*
<puck> ..i have too many cursed retro projects i want to do
<puck> i want to port AmigaOS to 68k macs (probably also old world macs by accident, because they boot into toolbox -> 68k emulation?) because i'm quite certain it's possible
<puck> (RTG only of course)
<geist> here's the old classic beos demo video: https://youtu.be/cjriSNgFHsM
<geist> i *do* remember though in late 99 win2k came out and though it was a bit steeper hardware requirement wise, it was starting to look pretty good
<puck> . o O ( BUY NOW )
<geist> had the win95 ui but was a solid NT machine
<geist> beos was starting to get eclipsed at that point as far as feeling snappy in a highly multithreaded way on SMP machines
<puck> i kinda want to grab a few retro machines and use them for a while as primary machines. but ii've not been very functional recently to get that up and runniing
<puck> (also i need to fix the debounce on my keyboard because it is Not Very Good Right Now)
<geist> every time i try to seriously use a retro machine to do anything i immediately hit the Web Problem. ie, if you dont have a current web browser you can't do anything
<geist> except irc and ssh into something else
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<puck> to be fair, irc + some music playing + ssh would roughly cover my work needs. if i were to seriously try this for a longer time i'd probably just run haiku :p
<puck> (yeah not retro but it works out roughly the same. i just kinda want to get out of the monotony of my current desktop setup)
<geist> yah i mean with modern machines it's basically web brower + a few specialized apps
<geist> so to a certain extent very little of it matters in the normal case for normal users
<geist> i switch between mac, chromeos, windows, and linux like 16 times a day and it's all the same thing, since i just have chrome up on all of them
<geist> looking at the same tabs
<geist> kinda nice and depressing at the same time
<puck> yup.
<geist> only thing that has a kinda unique experience and is in some way 'nostalgic' is my ipad, since it's more app centric, but still close to a regular computer (especially with an attachable keyboard)
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<heat> mjg, there's a couple of folks doing maintainership duties for old filesystems in linux
<heat> like the svr4 filesystem, ext2, etc
<heat> befs is probably included in that pack as well
<heat> actually there seems to be a real maintainer but that tree hasn't been touched in 5 years (https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/luisbg/linux-befs.git/)
<bslsk05> ​git.kernel.org: kernel/git/luisbg/linux-befs.git - Luis de Bethencourt's fork of linux.git
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