klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<dzwdz> oh hey, since when does sortix have a gui?
<dzwdz> it's looking pretty nice
<dzwdz> oh i guess it's still not on the main branch
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<nortti> dzwdz: it's been part of staging branch / volatile builds for a few years now, but it's still a little bit too WIP to merge
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<gog> it has trianglix
<gog> feel the power of hte triangl
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<zid> I saw a triangle once, awful experience
<gog> did you turn 180°and walk away?
<zid> no, interior angles are evil
<zid> I turned 900 degrees
<gog> what about an interior crocodile alligator
<bnchs> turn 360 degrees and walk away
<gog> yes like the xbox
<gog> red ring of death
<zid> I drive a chevrolet movie theatre
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<mrvn> bnchs: it's a quantum triangle, you have to turn 720°
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<bnchs> gog: i loveee playstation, i LOOOOOVE PLAYSTATION, kill the xbox! the reason why they call it the motherfucking 360, you look at it, makes you wanna do a 360 and walk away
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<gog> haha
<gog> PS2 was the last good console
<nortti> how do you mean?
<bnchs> gog: make it the PS3
<bnchs> the latest good console
<gog> i never had a PS3
<gog> i had a wii and after that i decided i didn't want consoles anymore
<gog> i'm strongly considering getting a switch tho
<Bitweasil> I've owned a PS2 and a Wii briefly.
<bnchs> PS3 had a really powerful CPU, but 512 MB of overall RAM
<bnchs> and then with PS4, it had 8 GB of RAM, but shit CPU
<zid> ps2 was amazing yea
<zid> no interest in ps3/ps4/ps4
<zid> ps5/ps5vr/ps5pro/ps51x
<gog> it's still possible that it's nostalgia that makes me miss the PS2
<Chamaeleon> PlayStation was the best console fite me
<gog> playstation was also vv good
<nortti> ps2 was also incredibly popular at a time when "high-end" game dev was not entirely out of reach of ppl outside big studios, meaning you got a lot of ppl throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what stuck
<zid> ps was ass
<zid> it's amazing any good games at all came out for it
* GeDaMo is currently playing Spyro 3 on a PS1 emulator
<zid> affine texturing and no floating point unit? sounds like we should make 3D games!
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<gog> i mean
<gog> people got a lot out of the playstation's hardware
<zid> somehow yea
<zid> It's amazing they made anything 3D at all, even a shitty rotating cube
<gog> yeh
<GeDaMo> Soul Reaver has streaming geometry
<zid> crash did good tricks with that
<zid> most of the levels are rail shooters so it streams the geometry
<bnchs> zid: no FPU doesn't mean you can't emulate one
<zid> just offscreen of the camera are individual tris popping in
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<bnchs> which is still shit
<gog> por que no los dos?
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* lav waves
<FireFly> good news you can emulate a PS2
<FireFly> someday I'll pick up lapucelle tactics again
<zid> you mean
<zid> we love katamari
<bnchs> FireFly: i like how PCSX2 is full of graphical emulation hacks per-game
<zid> I have a legit copy of that but all my ps2 controllers are very dead at this point :(
<gog> can they be revived? PS2 controllers were pretty robust iirc
<zid> dead as in dead
<gog> dang
<zid> failed thumbsticks, failed shoulders buttons, etc
<zid> they've all got a few thousand hours in each
<gog> dirty or worn off the PCB?
<gog> for the buttons
<gog> thumbsticks might come alive with some deoxit in the pots
<zid> usually whatever mechanism that keeps them springy
<FireFly> bnchs: yeahhhh the situation is a bit dire as far as accuracy goes for ps2 emulation I think
<zid> has worn its guides out
<zid> or plain snapped
<gog> it's literally a spring
<FireFly> but fortunately for me I don't have too much nostalgia for the platform :p
<zid> you should see what they did on the steam controller
<zid> L1 and R1 are just a flat piece of plastic that wants to flex away from the contact
<zid> so after a few hundred presses it just breaks from stress
<gog> ugh
<FireFly> I wish I could have a controller modelled after the steamdeck :p
<zid> center, 2nd one down
<zid> It's just got a bump underneath it in the center, so you can flex that big piece
<zid> so it eventually just snaps clean in two
<zid> also gets sticky buttons easily, and the touch pad is impossible to actually click, comfortable AF though
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<heat> the xbox 360 was a good console you mofo
<heat> i will NOT stand for xbox 360 slander
<zid> only cus geometry wars
<heat> i hope you fucking idiots enjoy your glorified x86 computers while I use my chad powerpc console
<heat> with the GOAT controller
<nortti> I actually liked the second-version original xbox controller (not the duke, the normal-looking one) more than the xbox 360 one
<heat> i got an xbone series S controller a few months ago
<heat> solid improvement on the xbox 360 controller
<heat> iirc the original xbone controllers were crap
<heat> and the OG xbox ones? naw
<gog> i prefer my regular x86 computer
<heat> do you use freebsd?
<heat> because AMD + freebsd is pretty much a playstation
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<gog> why would i use freebsd zid
<gog> heat
<gog> zidheat
<heat> idk
<zid> zheita
<heat> do you have a neckbeard?
<gog> not anymore
<heat> then there's no reason to use freebsd
<zid> can I be a neck beard
<heat> yes
<zid> does freebsd run on am4
<heat> yes and/or no
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<bslsk05> ​spectrum.ieee.org: 50 Years Later, We’re Still Living in the Xerox Alto’s World - IEEE Spectrum
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<Ermine> hi gog, may I pet you
<gog> hi Ermine you may pet me
<Ermine> This is great
* Ermine pets gog
<heat> mjg, sup B what do you think of opendtrace
<heat> why is it good and/or bad
<mjg> it never took off mate
<mjg> check out more threading kwality from llvm
<mjg> // The call to sched_getaffinity() may have failed because the Affinity
<mjg> // mask is too small for the number of CPU's on the system (i.e. the
<mjg> // system has more than 1024 CPUs). Allocate a mask large enough for
<mjg> // twice as many CPUs.
<mjg> :d
<heat> wdym it never took off?
<heat> freebsd is literally using it
<mjg> opendtrace/
<mjg> no handsom
<zid> That's an amazing
<heat> awww no you're handsome
<zid> coed
<mjg> fbsd is using *dtrace*
* gog prr
<mjg> which diverged from illumos
<mjg> there was an attempt at creating a sharedp roject
<mjg> and it wnet to shit
<mjg> the end
<heat> ok so what do you think of that codebase in general
<mjg> so apart from the 1024 cpu luller
<mjg> if you don't want to use hyperthreads, llvm will try to find out how many real cores you got
<mjg> to that end it is going to parse /proc/cpuinfo :d
<heat> hey at least it's not parsing /sys
<mjg> which i'm confident defeats the point
<mjg> heat: dtrace is code is classic solaris
<mjg> heat: most notably in terms of lack of *actual* regard for multicore or numa
<heat> but seriously WHAT SHALT I THINK OF DTRACE
<heat> i remember you told me to use eBPF for Onyx and to not bother with dtrace
<mjg> dtrace is adeadend, which is why
<mjg> fucker
<heat> yesterday I was looking and saw dtrace for windows
<mjg> there is also one for os x
<heat> then I saw the commit that added it, remarkably simple
<mjg> what you don't udnertsands is that nobody is using them
<mjg> even at apple
<heat> why
<heat> why is it a dead end
<mjg> no developerz
<mjg> modulo some movement in freebsd land
<heat> what is it lacking that I would get from some randos developing eBPF bullcrap
<mjg> active dev base
<mjg> loops
<heat> cuz bpftrace doesn't seem that widespread either
<heat> m9 eBPF can't loop yet
<heat> and thank god for that
<mjg> dtrace can't loop by design
<mjg> someone added lolglue to pretend therea re if statments
<mjg> why don't yout port the obsd tracing framework smartass
<heat> what's the openbsd tracing framework
<heat> also if you think dtrace is so bad why don't you have eBPF
<mjg> i'm not claiming it is so bad
<mjg> i'm claiming if one is to port something, today ebpf is the better choice
<heat> you said it's dying
<mjg> it is
<mjg> if you have it already operational, it is perfectly usable
<sortie> <klange> Re: Wallpapers - 1.x was landscapes, 2.x is fauna, and everything in that album from the vim+python ports onwards is my own photos, which adds to the in-house-y-ness.
<sortie> ^ Yeah you're a really good photographer :)
<sortie> <dzwdz> oh hey, since when does sortix have a gui? <dzwdz> it's looking pretty nice <dzwdz> oh i guess it's still not on the main branch
<sortie> Yeah it's on the staging branch and in the volatile builds, including the new procedural wallpaper. Feel free to try it out. I'll probably merge it within the next couple months at this pace :) I just merged networking
<sortie> <gog> it has trianglix <gog> feel the power of hte triangl
<sortie> dzwdz, indeed, Sortix 1.0 does contain trianglix. It's a revolutionary triangle environment!
<sortie> <zid> I saw a triangle once, awful experience
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<sortie> zid, triangles feel your emotions. When scared, try to relax at a 90 degree angle (or radians if you're a freak who's into that). They're more scared of you.
<gog> pi/2 radians
<heat> yummy pie
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<gog> piiiiiie
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<zid> 90 radians!?
<gog> that's about 14 times around a circle
<gog> weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
<zid> I am dizzy
* Ermine is dizzy
<jcmdln> heat: OpenBSD has https://man.openbsd.org/btrace.8 which uses BPFtrace. It should be very familiar to bpftrace users
<bslsk05> ​man.openbsd.org: btrace(8) - OpenBSD manual pages
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<ilovethinking> hey guys
<ilovethinking> x86_64-elf-ld: i386 architecture of input file `src/boot.o' is incompatible with i386:x86-64 output
<ilovethinking> i compile the .S file with -m32, how is it i386:x86-64
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<ilovethinking> what does that even mean
<Ermine> I guess you need to add certain flags to ld. Idk which, just a guess.
<ilovethinking> i have -melfi386
<heat> jcmdln, what's the difference? surely openbsd doesn't have an eBPF interpreter right?
<heat> at least not from memory and a quick dive into sys/net/bpf.c shows it's just cBPF
<ilovethinking> what does i386:x86_64 mean
<heat> ilovethinking, you're mixing elf32 with elf64 object files
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<ilovethinking> heat: sorry, i got disconnected. i am pretty sure i need elf32 output files and then link them into an elf32 binary?
<ilovethinking> or how do i do it
<ilovethinking> im booting with qemu -kernel
<heat> compile and link normally, then objcopy to elf32
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<ilovethinking> compile as x86_64 or i386?
<heat> x86_64
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<gog> hi
<lav> a gog!
* vdamewood gives gog a fishy.
* gog chomp fishy
<gog> hi hi lav
<heat> vincent van gog
<zid> heat has a trophy wife
<zid> huge ears and a list of men's names written on the back
<heat> i dont have a wife
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<zid> (husbando comment)
<mjg> heat has a gnu/waifu
<mjg> it's basically stallman lookalike
<heat> mjg why do you keep calling me handsome
<heat> do you want me to wife you
<heat> is that it
<mjg> it's an insult dawg
<heat> right
<heat> in BSD circles the uglier you are, the better
<mjg> "when a singer has shit voice, you tell her she looks pretty"
<zid> When I wake up I shall be sober, but when you wake up you shall still be handsome
<mjg> sopranos vibes
<heat> mjg, why do you say openbsd tracing sucks
<mjg> i donm't thhink i said that, but it probably does
<mjg> last i had seen it, liek 2 years ago, it was defo crap, but also in infancy
<mjg> technically it may be it is great now but i would not bet on it
<heat> apparently it uses bpftrace?
<heat> btw has anyone told OpenBSD people that having the mdoc directive as a tooltip on manpages is stupid and useless
<mjg> it does? are you sure there is no name clash here
<heat> idk man it's what jcmdln said
<heat> i know jack shit about OpenBSD tracing
<mjg> as i said, i'm not looking at their code anymore
<heat> for health concerns
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<mjg> huh bpftrace is apache-licensed
<mjg> in that case it is plausibly used by obsd
<heat> but openbsd does not have a ebpf interp
<heat> I think
<mjg> one way to find out
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<mjg> but i'm not going there
<mjg> hf
<heat> can't
<heat> 2busy
<mjg> 2handsome2care\
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<heat> your words mu
<heat> m8
<mjg> stop the hate speech
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<heat> don't stop the hate speech
<heat> just hate
<lav> whose words μ?
<heat> project mu
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<Ermine> m8 = m4 + m4
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<heat> ah naw not m4
<heat> anyway i'm going to watch teh footy
<mjg> gr8f8m8
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<heat> mjg, how many unix points do I get if I name my lookup func namei
<ilovethinking> hey, how’s everyone doing
<ilovethinking> heat: you’ll be reincarnated into an open source god
* geist yawns
<geist> still messed up after daylight savings change
<geist> or at least that's my excuse and i'm sticking to it
<geist> trying to build qemu on this riscv board now, for no other reason than why not
<heat> wait what daylight savings change?
<geist> yes tell me about it, it's stupid
<heat> oh wow TIL the day changes slightly between countries
<heat> "On March 15, 2022, the United States Senate passed the Sunshine Protection Act by unanimous consent. If passed by the House of Representatives, the law would place the United States under Daylight Time year-round.[1]"
<heat> lmao
<geist> yeah, it keeps getting pushed by various states and whatnot
<geist> one day they'll drag it across the finish line, since AFAIK no one really wants it anymore
<geist> the switching. i think most folks generally prefer it being 'on' all the time, which tends to take an hour from the morning and give it to the evening
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<geist> ie, midday is approximately 1pm instead of noon
<geist> which <shrug> it's the changing to me thats annoying
<heat> sgtm
<heat> i couldn't care less about the changing but I do like extra sunlight
<geist> yah i think that's what most folks prefer too
<geist> i can just imagine after civilization collapses and people are having to tell time with sundials they'll always have to add this one hour off for reasons no one understands
<ilovethinking> hey geist
<geist> it'll be because the Old Ones did it that way
<ilovethinking> guess what, i managed to compile it
<ilovethinking> one of the hardest hello world’s i have made tbh
<geist> okay.
<ilovethinking> not directly “hello world” but you know lol
<geist> sure
<geist> i mean compiling something is not the hard part. making it work is the hard part
<geist> but i'll give you whatever encouragement you need. go for it!
<ilovethinking> no i mean it works
<ilovethinking> i ran it and i managed to write to eax
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<heat> gr8
<geist> noice
<geist> re: that whole compiling with -m32 thing. i think heat mentioned it. you want to compile as x86-64, but then use .bits32 inside the asm to force it to generate 32 (or even .bits 16 if you need it)
<geist> then you can link them together because the linker just sees a set of 64bit .o files
<geist> there are other ways to do it, but that's the most straightforward, provided you keep it simple and just do the minimum amount of work in 32bit code and get right into 64
<ilovethinking> ohh okay
<ilovethinking> thanks
<geist> if you try to write too much 32bit and reference symbols in themain binary you'll get into relocation linker issues and you dont want to fiddle with that
<geist> an artifact of the 16 -> 32 -> 64 extensions that has been done on x86 over the years is it's basically the same ISA. it's just had more bits added and some reinterpretation of some of the other bits as modes switch
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<geist> but it means the assembler can just assemble the same instructions differently if it knows what mode you're assembling for
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<geist> hence the .bits 16 or .bits 32 directive in the assembler. it'll just start generating instructions from then on out until you switch modes
<geist> in that case if you're in a 64bit binary and telling it to assemble for 32bit then you're basically saying 'yeah i know what's going on here, dont worry about it' and the linker doesn't know any different
<heat> it's .code16 and .code32
<heat> I don't think GNU as supports .bits?
<geist> ah yeah. i think it was bits something on nasm or whatnot.
<geist> yeah you're right
<heat> yep
<geist> code16 makes more sense anyway, it's clearer what its for
<ilovethinking> .bits is on nasm yea i was about to say
<geist> the other semi clean strategy to all of this is to simply create a little front end stage of code that's completely independent of the 64bit code, and is glued on after linking. it's the 'cleanest' in the sense that both binaries are completely independent
<geist> but it requires more steps and more knowledge of how to fiddle with binaries, so i wouldn't recommend it now
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<mjg> heat: that gives you mckusick point
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<heat> software engineering question
<heat> imagine you're doing a large rework on a piece of code, do you do small incremental changes while testing everything still works properly, or do you do a large refactor on it and only then test
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<gog> small changes, work from the innermost loops out
<gog> innermost scope i guess
<gog> but
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<gog> i also work on a project that's too large for our team
<gog> so it's the only way that's not gonna fuck us over
<brunothedev> guys, i have a amd athlon 200ge build with 8 gib of ram and 120gb ssd, i just dont have a font
<gog> there are things i would love to overhal, that desperately need an overhaul, but we can't
<brunothedev> * psu(font is the brazilian name)
<johngammerson> https://paste.sh/nOTGwJja#NIJ4ecPS_U5dds6qTUiz1jbI what am i doing wrong
<kof123> if i am being paid, probably the former. it this is giant neverending research hobby, probably the latter
<kof123> i.e. do things need to stay runnable in the meantime, or can it be broken for x weeks/months/years
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<kof123> as long as progress is slowly being made/planned i see no problem condemning half the building. its just do customers expect to be in there or not
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<kof123> i tend to write skeleton functions, so even "new" code the elevator goes to non-existent floors for a while
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<brunothedev> honestly, there is many free pdfs of minix on the internet, should i try to print one and learn osdev like that? Mainly is that i am focusing on UNIX/POSIX
<klange> As far as printed matter goes, the Minix books are some of the least bad, but Minix is also very opinionated and what's covered in the books isn't really the bits most people find interesting about osdev.
<nortti> are the xv6 materials good?
<brunothedev> thank you, random ukrainian university: https://github.com/csc-knu/sys-prog
<bslsk05> ​csc-knu/sys-prog - KNU course on building language processors (7 forks/16 stargazers/MIT)
<heat> nortti, IMO, no
<nortti> yeah had a hunch
<heat> it's a very naive, very simple UNIX
<heat> but ymmv, if that's what you're looking for, then great
<brunothedev> it doesnt have: permissions, nor a file structure
<klange> xv6 is more of a bit of software archeology
<klange> it's supposed to recreate the experience of the earliest builds of Unix
<heat> i mean, at the end of the day, that works well, particularly for a uni course
<brunothedev> KNU stands for Kiev National University i think
<brunothedev> i will not buy a minix book, it is like a minimum wage here, i would print the pdf
<heat> it's probably expectable that linux, etc are hard to learn from, particularly for complete newbies
<klange> Yeah, at textbook prices I would say don't bother with D&I.
<heat> so in that sense, xv6 does its job fine. the basics are still there
<heat> although it's a bit meh still, source code organization is severely lacking, so are comments
<brunothedev> the only "documentation" i ve found on xv6 is a mit(i think) stundent notes on github
<brunothedev> they copy code from netbsd and other too i think
<nortti> the course material should be available at MIT's site
<klange> Of my passive goals with my OS is to have something that is both complete enough to touch a bit of everything, while remaining simple in its design and layout so as to be fully comprehensible.
<heat> all in all, dh`'s OS161 is probably a much better resource than xv6
<brunothedev> honestlly, i am just surprised they didn't bother to take down this repo, you can find easily by just searching, i made a backup in a case of takedown
<brunothedev> it is like 6 tanenbaum books
<klange> Tanenbaum doesn't care too much himself, and I don't think he puts any pressure on his publishers to go after things.
<klange> Plus Minix itself is FOSS.