klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<geist> for zircon we have gp -> current cpu *, tp -> curren thread *
<heat> ah
<heat> that's cute
<geist> but we do the tp that way for another reason: we're using some stack guard stuff and the compiler *mandates* that tp point to the current TLS stuff
<geist> so we couldn't reuse TP for anything else anyway
<geist> could hang a pointer to the current cpu off the current_thread structure though, if we had a use for GP
<geist> but it'd be another indirectino, etc
<geist> that's what i have it do in LK, and am currently trying to actually use GP for small data
<geist> figured for embedded riscv things SMP isn't a thing so may as well make GP useful there where small data may actually be more valuable
<heat> do you know if there's a way to smartly transform ld offset(tp) into more complex insn sequences when required?
<heat> is there a relaxation for this?
<geist> oh like if offset is too great?
<bslsk05> ​paste.sr.ht: 49e9262 — paste.sr.ht
<heat> geist, yep
<geist> hmm, not really. no
<geist> aside from some inline asm with maybe some constxpr trickery
<geist> to choose a different version
<geist> i'd just generally avoid having the struct be too big
<bslsk05> ​github.com: Onyx/percpu.h at master · heatd/Onyx · GitHub
<heat> i'm really not happy with this
<mjg> linear_cannon: thanks a bunch mate
<heat> yes, the problem is that I have no struct so I only know this at link time :/
<mjg> linear_cannon: hue so there a slight win for dup1_threads -s 5 -t 2
<geist> you should probably at leat avoid hard coding a0 like that
<geist> ah atually i did it the other way around: i have LK point tp to the current cpu
<geist> and then the current thread is just slot 0 off that
<bslsk05> ​github.com: lk/riscv.h at master · littlekernel/lk · GitHub
<geist> so then yeah no fast accessors for fields in current thread, except for `get_current_thread()->field`
<geist> and that's probably not optimal because it'll keep dereffing off tp every time, etc
<heat> yeah but that's standard, no?
<mjg> linear_cannon: check this out https://dpaste.com/3FLYE84JN
<bslsk05> ​dpaste.com <no title>
<bslsk05> ​www.youtube.com: Using an Out-of-Control Car to Calculate π. - YouTube
<geist> i dunno, depends on what you mean by standard
<heat> at least linux does not do any of that trickery
<heat> current is current, period
<geist> yeah
<geist> the key is you need to arrange for any preemption in the middle to not mess up getting to the current thread
<geist> so either current thread is held directly in a register, or in this case it's exactly one instruction to look it up, so can't be broken
<geist> snce current thread is always current thread, even if you got preempted and moved to another cpu anywhere in it it's safe
<heat> in what case do you care about doing this atomically?
<geist> of course reading current cpu is instantly out of date if it takes more than one instruction to read something off it
<geist> well, since TP points to the current cpu you have to assume that effectively the TP register can change out from underneath the current thread at any time, unless preemption is disabled
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<geist> between any two instructions the TP register could switch to another cpu transparently because of preemption
<heat> oh, right
<linear_cannon> mjg, wow, so adding a thread cuts performance in half?
<geist> but in this case since field 0 of the current cpu structure must always point to current threa,d it's safe to `ld current_thread, 0(tp)` because the invariant is maintained that it's always the current cpu
<linear_cannon> or worse, if on different sockets
<heat> yep
<geist> but if you did something like `mv r0, tp; ld current_thread, 0(r0)` then you'd be in trouble
<mjg> linear_cannon: ye it's not good
<geist> since you're instantly looking at a stale cpu pointer
<geist> thus i wrote that as inline asm in one instruction so that it can't be broken
<geist> but anyway you can probably just as easily point TP at the current thread, and read the current cpu * off it, and then just maintain that
<heat> yeah so my pcpu implementation right now is slightly broken
<geist> either has their advantages and disadvantages
<heat> good to know
<geist> yah, aid *if* you store a per cpu pointer in a register, then you have to make sure you dont reload it on exceptions
<geist> because think of it this way: if you save it on exception entry and then go and run some code and the thread is blocked and comes back on another cpu and exits, restoring the wrong per cpu pointer from the iframe... boom
<geist> (i hgave personally written that bug before and spent a day debugging it)
<heat> yeah generally most of code similar to that really does need to be preempt_disable()'d
<heat> or at least migration_disable'd
<geist> yah
<geist> in general most of the data on the percpu struct is one off fields that you can safely read or write in one instruction
<geist> like getting the current number
<heat> yep
<heat> funnily enough linux doesn't seem to give much of a shit here
<heat> they seem to do optimized inline asm on x86, arm64, loongarch
<heat> the rest uses plain C
<mrvn> linux doesn't migrate threads to different cores often
<mrvn> maybe they only do that outside preemption?
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<geist> yeah i was reading the glibc riscv string, and it uses the C version
<geist> seems to be basically as good of a job as can currently do in asm really
<geist> given current hardware and not using vectors, etc etc
<geist> at least with GCC as the compiler. i dont trust clang to generate good enough code from the C
<gog> hi
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<mrvn> geist: Kind of makes you want an "compare ptr1 and read ptr1[offset]" atomic op.
<mrvn> .oO(I'm so happy about not scheduling inside the kernel)
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<moon-child> what do you want that for?
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<heat> geist, oh I meant inline asm in the percpu var stuff
<heat> although yes, riscv is still pretty unoptimized
<heat> I think linux (the kernel) recently got some new stringops stuff for a new extension that got ratified recently
<heat> gog: bog
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<kof123> ACTION stares up at chat log "quad-processor pentium 3 systems. i want one" im not sure if it was pentium 3, but i think that was the -march i used, intel sc450nx, 4x500 mhz IIRC, i think i had 1-2G ram maybe? nothing special about that, but they did/do exist "big square box with quad cpus in it" yes, i had a little cage...it had dual PSUs (for backup, not needed) ...6 or so scsi sleds/slots for drives i also had 2x hp r
<kof123> mount something, were like 2x700 mhz, 768M ram, 2 scsi drives
<kof123> not a huge deal maybe, but "server" stuff you could hot-swap drives. these were "server" systems
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<moon-child> oh cute
<moon-child> I just realised cmpccxadd can be used to implement both regular xadd and regular cas
<moon-child> oh nvm, i thought cmpccxadd had weaker ordering, but seems like not. So not helpful there. Oh well
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<lav> hi gog
<gog> hi lav
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<johngammerson> hey
<johngammerson> quick question: if i boot an os using x86_64 qemu using -kernel with multiboot and then jump to long mode, it's considered a 64 bit os right?
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<moon-child> well, it's certainly not a 32-bit os
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<Mutabah> ilovethinking: Why would it not be?... I guess it's a "32-bit" image, but the kernel runs in 64-bit mode after bootup, so it's a 64-bit kernel
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<mrvn> If a long-mode kernel comes with it's own bootloader (16-bit), multiboot (32-bit) and limine (64-bit) clearly that then is a 16/32/64 kernel. :)
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<gog> hi
<zid> hello gorg
<Ermine> hi gog, may I pet you
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<gog> yes
* Ermine pets gog
* gog prr
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<zid> nobody's said RUST in the past hour, where's heat today
* Ermine heats up...
* Ermine ...
<Ermine> RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUST
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<sham1> Wait, rust has a windup time?
<zid> ofc, it has a runtime
<zid> std::rust::unbox::map::list::unordered::set::vector(T)
<sham1> FactoryBeanStrategyVisitor
* gog rusts
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<sham1> Oh no!
<mrvn> In Rust if you have a list, a set or map or something is there a way to remove an item from the container without first having to search it? Some kind of iterator or handle?
* zid Cs gog rust
<gog> c gog
<gog> c gog rust
<gog> rust gog rust
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<nortti> mrvn: do you mean like, getting a &mut iterator and then mem:replace()ing it out of there?
<mrvn> USB power sucks. I have a PSU with USB-C and USB-A outlet. I run my ARM on the USB-C outlet. But when I plug the TFT into the USB-A outlet power goes off and my SoC restarts.
<mrvn> nortti: Say I have a thread "current_thread" and that dies. Now I want to remove the thread from the list of running threads. current_thread->running_handle.remove_from_list() or something.
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<nortti> I presume the list of running threads is an intrusive linked list?
<mrvn> I have no idea what Rust has. But an intrusive lists solves the problem easily.
<nortti> you may enjoy https://rust-unofficial.github.io/too-many-lists/ "Learn Rust With Entirely Too Many Linked Lists"
<bslsk05> ​rust-unofficial.github.io: Introduction - Learning Rust With Entirely Too Many Linked Lists
<netbsduser> nortti: in all sensible kernels it probably would be
<mrvn> nortti: If you have a non-intrusive list then the handle would be a pointer to the struct ListItem { ListItem *next, *prev, T *data; }; Going that way is a bunch harder to work with and wastes space. So hence my question what Rust has.
<nortti> there is no built-in linked list support, but you can build your own like in C or C++
<mrvn> there is no STL like cargo?
<nortti> how do you mean?
<mrvn> A standard collection of data types and algorithm everyone needs every day
<nortti> there's core, alloc, std
<netbsduser> mrvn: they are notoriously limited in rust
<nortti> but those don't include linked lists because they are a very niche use case
<netbsduser> for example the standard containers can't handle out-of-memory
<netbsduser> they just abort
<mrvn> well, the kernel panics so that isn't much different. :)
<bslsk05> ​doc.rust-lang.org: LinkedList in std::collections - Rust
<nortti> huh, nvm then
<danlarkin> you probably don't have std though
<mrvn> std isn't something a rust kernel would/could use?
<danlarkin> I mean, you can do anything you want, but probably not
<nortti> yeah std is mainly meant for hosted implementations
<bslsk05> ​doc.rust-lang.org: alloc::collections::linked_list - Rust
<nortti> and alloc:: just requires a memory allocator
<danlarkin> oh yeah that's right! alloc
<nortti> https://doc.rust-lang.org/alloc/collections/linked_list/struct.CursorMut.html#method.remove_current think this is what you'd want if you are using the alloc::collections::LinkedList
<bslsk05> ​doc.rust-lang.org: CursorMut in alloc::collections::linked_list - Rust
<mrvn> std::collections::linked_list and alloc::collections::linked_list seem to be pretty identical
<danlarkin> yeah the one is std is an import of the one from alloc iirc
<mrvn> nortti: more like IterMut::take(1)
<danlarkin> like they're not just identical, they're the same thing
<netbsduser> mrvn: my init system does not, and the kernel also shouldn't panic if i asked for a fallible allocation
<mrvn> A cursor would advance to the next and you just want to remove the current from the list.
<netbsduser> my last foray into rust i was working on a service manager (or "init system") and i had to abandon the language for this reason
<nortti> a bit surprised these don't seem to have a allocating functions that return Result<(), _> instead of aborting
<nortti> pretty sure vector has those for example
<netbsduser> while C++ signals an exception and leaves things consistent if it fails to allocate, the rust panics if an allocation fails. the C++ people must be having a laugh at how silly this is
<mrvn> netbsduser: the user side malloc fails gracefully but if you are somewhere deep inside the kernel functions and allocation fails things generally go BOOM. Kernels generally keep a bit of memory reserved for internal use so that internal alloc never runs out.
<nortti> netbsduser: can't you do equivalent of what c++ does if you set panics to unwind?
<nortti> since aiui one of the invariants is that unwinding leaves stuff in a consistent state
<netbsduser> mrvn: in my case it is 512kib i keep reserved (i take no chances)
<mrvn> nortti: that only works if the container only ever does one alloc at a time and does that before any change to the container.
<nortti> hm?
<netbsduser> nortti: reportedly rust panicking needs to further allocate & in any case the containers abort rather than panic on OOM
<nortti> oh okay
<netbsduser> it's what drove me away from rust
<mrvn> Can one write an intrusive container in Rust? Can an object belong to multiple intrusive containers (even of the same type)?
<danlarkin> you can write any data structure you want, the only limit is your patience for unsafe code
<mrvn> danlarkin: obviously I mean without unsafe.
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<nortti> if you reject using unsafe, then no
<mrvn> if I use unsafe I might as well just write C
<danlarkin> that's not obvious at all, a rust kernel will necessarily have some unsafe code
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<mrvn> danlarkin: If you need unsafe to implement List then that's a fail.
<danlarkin> shrug
<nortti> why?
<zid> rust is designed around very explicit ownership and stuff
<nortti> that's like saying, if you need non-smart-pointers to implement List, that's a fail, for C++
<zid> hardware disagrees
<mrvn> nortti: and it is. you don't need non-smart-pointers to implement List.
<mrvn> nortti: you might want to and you can. But you are not required to.
<nortti> wait, you can implement a bidirectional intrustive linked list in c++ using refcounted pointers, without memory leaks?
<mrvn> nortti: a shared_ptr and a weak_ptr
<nortti> hm. you might actually be able to implement something similar in rust safely using stuff like Rc<> and RefCell<>. unsure if you can get all the lifetimes to nicely match up
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<nortti> well, you can if you use a backing arena to allocate them
<mrvn> nortti: A weak_ptr doesn't keep the object alive but gets notified when the object gets removed. So I'm guessing weak_ptr are themself in a doubly linked list owned by the shared_ptr proxy object.
<mrvn> Or they are ref counted by the proxy object and that remains behind till the last weak_ptr dies.
<danlarkin> nortti linked this above not that long ago, but https://rust-unofficial.github.io/too-many-lists/ is a good read if you care about this
<bslsk05> ​doc.rust-lang.org: Weak in std::rc - Rust
<mrvn> nortti: so I would say you can do it in C++ and in Rust exactly the same way.
<danlarkin> you won't have std
<bslsk05> ​doc.rust-lang.org: Weak in alloc::rc - Rust
<danlarkin> gah! alloc strikes again
<nortti> lol
<mrvn> std seems to import all of alloc
<nortti> yeah, same with core
<nortti> unsure if they started with everything in std and then moved nonhosted stuff to std and alloc first, or why they do it like that
<nortti> s/first/later/
<mrvn> They probably don't want people to have remember what is in core and alloc. You just write std::foo
<mrvn> Just us freestanding / embedded people have to worry about this :(
<danlarkin> which has worked! as evidenced by my forgetting what's in alloc all the time
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<heat> hlelo
<vaartngvirf> henlo
<heat> mjg, mofo how are you supposed to spin for readers in a rwlock
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<vaartngvirf> you mean once write lock is acquired?
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<heat> when write locking, spinning while waiting for readers
<heat> i read linux's impl but it reads like a bunch of pseudo science to me
<mrvn> heat: are spinning waiting for other cores or other threads?
<mjg> heat: you can't in a truly informed manner
<mjg> heat: at best you can speculate
<heat> ok so you'll never escape pseudo science
<mjg> heat: a'la userspace just doing sme spins
<heat> wonderful
<mjg> did i mneiton there is no such thing as an optimal lock?
<mjg> the only thing which is a net benefit vast majority of the time is *adaptive* spinning, past that it is all shamanism
<mjg> i'm pretty sure linukkkz does not spin on readers
<heat> it does
<heat> it's a best-effort thing, tries to spin on the last reader
<mjg> ?
<heat> if that reader unlocks it needs to stop spinning I think
<mjg> you mean if it sees only one?
<mjg> perhaps you found a case where it sees a *transient* state of the lock
<heat> no, I mean that down_read() will put you down as the "owner" of the lock
<mjg> and this is where it spins
<heat> so it spins on that
<mjg> that's for the sleepable locks?
<gog> hi
<heat> yes
<sham1> yes, hi
<heat> gog goog google
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<heat> mjg, also I'm thinking that adding a has_waiters flag is a good idea for both rwlocks and mutexes
<heat> and anything that sleeps really
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<mjg> heat: see freebsd locks
<mjg> heat: they do it
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<gog> what do you think about the singleton pattern
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<gog> it might help me but it might also hurt me
<heat> gog, bad
<mjg> people who use it are singletons!
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<heat> mjg, yes I think every decent lock does it
<gog> yeah i'm leaning toward it hurts more than it helps
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<heat> gog, just a glorified global m8
<sham1> > singletons
<sham1> Absolutely an antipattern these people!
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<heat> WHAT DYALL THINK ABOUT THE ADAPTER PATTERN
<gog> it's adaptive
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<heat> mjg, i have a new flamegraph for Onyx, wanna take a look
<sham1> Oh, adapter is fine. It's the singleton that drives me up a wall as a professional OO wrangler
<heat> i think patterns are stupid
<mjg> heat: sure
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<gog> yeah i hate patterns
<gog> i agree with heat on everything always
<heat> twiiiiiiiiiinsssssssss
<gog> :3
<heat> colon of the three
<heat> mjg, so this is done for unlink1_process. i think this shit doesn't really scale very well
<gog> i'm doing things you'd disagree with btw
<sham1> Design patterns are useful. It's when people use them religiously and use them just to use them is the problem
<gog> sham1: i mean yeah
<gog> programmign isn't a dogma
<bslsk05> ​gist.github.com: out-unlink1-onyx.svg · GitHub
<heat> so I noticed it scaled DOWN like 100x so I added spinning
<heat> now it scales meh
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<sakasama> sham1, gog: The singleton pattern resolves an issue with undefined global initialisation order between translation units in C++, and in that context it's sensible.
<sham1> And to that I say that not every language is C++
<sakasama> Java coders later adopted it, oblivious to that requirement, and popularised it as merely a way to enforce having a single instance.
<mjg> heat: unlink is meh-ey think to bench
<mjg> heat: anyway i like that you discovered benefits on not going straight to sleep
<heat> i'm not sure how much of it is just my scheduler sucking
<sakasama> sham1: Yes. It should never have been so readily adopted for other languages.
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<heat> mjg, does unlink ever scale? maybe when doing RCU on that?
<mjg> yes and no
<mjg> first unlink of what
<mjg> currently everyone that i know of has unlink serialized on the directory vnode, at least
<mjg> but without naming names, unlink from *different* dirs will also serialize in certain case
<mjg> it can be made to mostly scale by range-locking, but i don't know if it is of practical use
<mjg> as in i have not ran into a real workload which unlinks enough for this to be a problem
<mrvn> mjg: 2 users deleting files?
<heat> also do note that currently my spinning is completely based on good vibes and inshallah
<heat> it's entirely possible the thread fucks off and gets unmapped and I get egg on my face
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<mrvn> sakasama: I just define initialization priorities by hand in an enum.
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<sakasama> mrvn: If interdependent globals can be placed in a single unit so that order is well-defined, even better.
<mrvn> sakasama: if they can not be ordered then the singleton initialization would deadlock.
* sakasama nods.
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<bslsk05> ​gitlab.com: libc/glob/glob.c · staging · sortix / Sortix · GitLab
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<zid> oh I thought I heard some rust, there's heat
<heat> rurururuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust
* geist hears the call of the rust
<geist> RUUUUUSSST
* sakasama flees into the wilderness.
* gog oxidizes
* sakasama weeps for gog from a safe distance.
<heat> geist, how far along is the zircon riscv support?
<geist> not checked in (in a sandbox branch) boots single core up to the end of the kernel start
<geist> user space is stubbed out right now
<geist> so a few more weeks
<geist> going to start pushing changes into gerrit next week
<zid> heat you love acpi, what's all this mess of tables
<zid> BGRT, CDIT, SSDT (x10)
<zid> I have a TPM2 at 0xBC61B000
<heat> BGRT is your firmware logo, no clue what CDIT is, SSDT are like auxiliary DSDT tables you dynamically load
<geist> there are an arbitrary number of tables, ignore the ones you dont want
<zid> oh is that how it did the AORUS thing + windows spinny
<heat> yep
<zid> neat I uess
<zid> Table DescriptionWindows SMM Security Mitigations Table
<zid> For when windows wants to hack my SMM
<heat> if you look at the BGRT data it's just a plain .bmp
<zid> so time to hex edit it, then reflash firmware?
<heat> could work brilliantly, could brick your mobo
<zid> I guess it might actually be compressed and it unpacks it to that memory at POST
<zid> so I might not be able to edit it
<heat> a good chunk of firmware volumes are completely compressed
<zid> • Major vulnerabilities updates, customers are strongly encouraged to update to this release at the earliest.
<zid> Credits to "Assaf Carlsbad and Itai Liba from SentinelOne"
<zid> should I install this bios rev
<zid> might lock me out of doing fun stuff to my own machine!
<heat> yes
<zid> `1 x Q-Flash Plus button`
<zid> I don't know how this works on AMD
<zid> I have two bios chips though and I can swap between them, that's handy
<heat> geist, btw cool cool ping me if you want some eyes on it
<heat> just testing on qemu or did you manage to boot it on your riscv board?
<geist> kk. the cguts are pretty close to LK, since the core underlying architecture is
<geist> qemu
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<brunothedev> let me test something here
<heat> no
<zid> no
<heat> theend.
<brunothedev> the message was the test, #gentoo is giving me a weird message
<brunothedev> so i tested here, on another libera.chat chatroom
<lav> The weird message is that you're quieted I think
<heat> hahahahahahaha
<brunothedev> lol
<zid> does not surprise
<bnchs> lav: you wouldn't quiet someone
<bnchs> you would kickban them
<lav> I would?
<zid> lav: I did not know this about you
<zid> how come he knows but we didn't
<brunothedev> i am not angry, just deceptioned
<bnchs> because i know
<bnchs> brunothedev: new word unlocked: deceptioned
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<brunothedev> bnchs: there is a similar phrase in portuguese
<heat> poortuguese moment
<brunothedev> heat: brazilian here btw
<heat> poorbraziliantugese moment
<brunothedev> just say "luso" by this point
<heat> argentina moment
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<brunothedev> "#gentoo: Cannot send to nick/channel", i think if i was quieted, the channel would receive the message, should not talk about his here though
<lav> Nope, that's what you get when you're +q
<bnchs> brunothedev: or maybe when you're kicked
<lav> If you do `/mode #gentoo q` you're right at the top of the list (:
<bnchs> lol what did brunothedev do to earn this quiet
<geist> huh. thats lame
<geist> maybe they do a quiet by default and then unquiet if you talk to them?
<lav> Nope don't think so
<brunothedev> lemme see the date which they quieted me
<lav> the dates are all in 1970 lol
<lav> for me at least >_>
<geist> maybe it got imported from freenode or something
<geist> and thus has a epoch date
<lav> ah that'd make sense
<sortie> Sometimes osdev just boils down to writing that super specific and complex function from POSIX with an efficient and semantically correct algorithm that makes various implementation tradeoffs. :)
<brunothedev> lol, i got quited on 11:00 on this date, i made some jokes yesterday, tho, my last messages was some questions
<lav> brunothedev: 15:13 UTC today
<brunothedev> lav: for me it is 18:44
<lav> huh
<geist> sortie: yeah if nothing else it's really educational. at least in as much as knowing intracacies of posix is helpful
<lav> actually it's 14:13 utc for me
<sortie> geist, yeah I just implemented glob(3) and my shell skills did improve :)
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<brunothedev> i made such jokes as: "if (gentoo.love == 1) printf("me love gentoo!\n");
<lav> tbh you were trolling
<brunothedev> lav: what ur time zone?
<geist> woot
<lav> and gentoo peeps are brutal
<lav> just be glad it wasn't -chat
<geist> reminds me, the other day i learned whatever the ctrl trick is to get bash to glob stuff on the command line, but already forgot it
<geist> but there's some trick you can do to get it to expand it live
<sortie> geist, sometimes it's also just nice in its own right to write that standard library algorithm
<brunothedev> lav: tho why they banned the other day?
<lav> geist: on zsh that's just called tab
<geist> yah, most shells hve their own thing for it
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<lav> brunothedev: idk ask them
<geist> i'd actually be a little annoyed if it was tab per se, that's a bit too easy to trigger
<geist> actually one that'd be nice is 'toggle glob'
<geist> ie, expand, to see what it'll do, then hit it again to go back to *
<brunothedev> did they got angry at mine: "just did 'mount --rbind /sys /mnt/gentoo' pls help" ?
<lav> well you can C-x u I suppose
<brunothedev> lesson learned: Dont make bad jokes while bored building the gentoo kernel
<lav> make them here instead
<brunothedev> lav: i already made some troolsusing /part
<lav> or in #windows
<brunothedev> imagine being #windows at libera.chat
<brunothedev> gonna drop a cool /part message at #windows
<geist> brunothedev: i'm gonna guess they just did it on accident
<geist> you could try to ask one of the ops
<zid> gentoo is heavily moderated
<zid> you're supposed to ask your question and go away
<brunothedev> zid: i thought it was just like the void linux chatroom, this was my first time with irc and it was FUN
<geist> i have no idea if zid is making that up or not
<lav> nope
<geist> ah so maybe it's a standard policy to voice everyone after they ask a question?
<lav> nah, it's just they really don't like trolling
<lav> it's a serious business kinda chan
<brunothedev> the last message i see: "ready to wreck clean a system again lol?"
<geist> i guess they've experienced in the past that if they dont lock it down it just turns into complete noise
<geist> maybe there's a -discuss channel
<lav> there's gentoo-chat
<brunothedev> gentoo users is the kind of people to see a IRC channel about gentoo and think "seriouus bisness"
<lav> they have crap moderation but in another way
<brunothedev> boredom always leads to bad things
<heat> irc channels are all usually more seris bizns than #osdev
<heat> for better or worse
<geist> does remind me, i should try a gentoo install w/systemd. not my favorite thing, but it's clear that its harder and arder to keep from using it
<brunothedev> geist: what are your problems with openrc
<geist> none, i love openrc
<brunothedev> u saying it is "harder and harder" to not use systemd? Package support?
* geist nods
<heat> because systemd is objectively better and upstream packages usually only support systemd
<geist> yah, objectively, not subjectively (from my point of view) but it's getting harder to ignore it
<geist> OTOH all of my real linux boxes are ubuntu based, which is already systemd. so i've had some time to get used to it
<brunothedev> i think that systemd gets a bad rep more about pottering
<mrvn> systemd is bad when things go wrong
<mrvn> nightmare to debug and most of the time you can't even get a console
<brunothedev> the only i dont like about openrc && runit, is the interface, in runit u have to symlink and delete files to enable/disable init processess
<brunothedev> pottering just likes to offend people, like when he called suckless devs far-righters when they did a torch march
<brunothedev> i think he fighted with linux too, my memory is a bit cloudy
<brunothedev> * linus
<moon-child> out of all the crap redhat puts out, systemd has not really gotten in my way very much
<moon-child> although I will say coredumpctl is one of the stupidest things I've ever encountered
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<heat> why? I like it
<heat> it makes sense
<brunothedev> moon-child: i think systemd is the worst thing redhat has put out, atleast pipewire and wayland are cool
<moon-child> wayland no
<moon-child> after the way they bungled pulseaudio I have very little hope for pipewire
<heat> wayland is good, pipewire is good, pulseaudio is good, systemd is good-ish
<brunothedev> * pulseaudio is bad, * systemd is mid
<moon-child> pulseaudio is one of the worst pieces of software I have ever had the displeasure of running on my computer
<zid> I used pulse for a bit it was like... fine?
<zid> Just acted like win7's volume mixer
<moon-child> coredumpctl: what's the point? Just dump core in cwd like a normal computer system
<brunothedev> remembering when it thok 2 weeks to configure audion on my gentoo system, oh the times... it was like a year ago
<moon-child> pulseaudio: random hitching; hitching when changing volume; randomly spinning up to 100% cpu; randomly refusing to recognise outputs or inputs
<brunothedev> moon-child: bloatware
<brunothedev> pulseaudio with kde dont work on youtube too, when i change to pipewire it fix
<heat> moon-child, coredump compresses dumps by default, coredumpctl debug <progname> gives ya the latest dump, also does GC of old dumps you don't look at
<heat> also omfg I can't believe suckless devs did a fucking tiki torch march
<moon-child> lol
<heat> I hate them even more now holy shit
<zid> You're a football fan heat you're supposed to be into racism
<brunothedev> heat: ?
<brunothedev> guess everyone in brazil is racist
<lav> i thought they were mask-off ages ago
<moon-child> I will concede suckless is worse than redhat
<heat> zid, nooooOOOOooooooooo I love n'gubu when he scores, but when he doesnt I go get my tiki torch
<brunothedev> being racist because of sports... So English
* brunothedev plays "rule britannia"
<zid> he's portuguese
<zid> can you stop being a cunt
<heat> u wot m8
<heat> im not a geese
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<geist> ugh come on people
* lav honks
<brunothedev> lav: oi m8 u got a loicense to honk?
<brunothedev> wait, is heat portuguese?
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<heat> moon-child, also, re: pulseaudio, pipewire: they all kind of collectively suck because very few companies do desktop linux work. but they were both good steps in the right direction
<heat> just like wayland, etc
<brunothedev> wayland doesnt suck!
<heat> they all suck because almost no one wants to do the work and the fragmentation is nuts
<brunothedev> also, bsd gets no representation :(
<klys> /usr/lib/xorg/Xorg -listen tcp :0 vt1 -keeptty -auth /tmp/serverauth.XxXxXxXxX
<brunothedev> klys: wut
<bnchs> hi
<brunothedev> fun fact: rms wrote gnu using the nutrients of his feet
<brunothedev> bnchs: does your name mean benches
<bnchs> bunches
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<sakasama> Honey bnchs of osdev.
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<bnchs> sakasama: i'm not a osdev, i'm merely a idiot here
<sakasama> ... but you're here, thus you are of here.
<bnchs> really?
<FireFly> sure why not
<FireFly> it's okay I don't do osdev either
<bnchs> i forgot why i was here, amorphia invited me because i was doing this os-9 reverse engineering shit
<heat> geist, have you seen the soon-to-be-new RAO atomics for x86?
<geist> hmm, no
<geist> is there a whitepaper or something
<sakasama> bnchs: I've only intermittently tinkered with osdev: I spend most of my effort on compilers and an absurd experimental architecture that will probably never be completed.
<heat> there's a pdf containing soon-to-be-new-shit for Intel
<heat> it's there, I think moon-child mentioned CMPccXADD which led me to it once again
<heat> RAO basically gives you atomics that may be done at the lower cache levels and/or DRAM controller itself
<heat> with a bunch of weaker ordering constraints as well
<mrvn> heat: so I don't bounce around a cacheline at the cost of needing a round-trip to get the result?
<heat> CMPccXADD is also slightly related but cool as well, basically does a semaphore/down_read operation
<bnchs> sakasama: i'm making a OS emulator/debugger, it's dumb
<heat> essentially replaces the standard cmpxchg loop you need for this
<mrvn> CMPeqADD #0, %rax, #1?
<moon-child> I'm annoyed cmpccxadd isn't more weakly ordered (from what I could tell)
<sakasama> bnchs: My only goal in life is to write an expert system that can rewrite me.
<mrvn> sakasama: I'm sure it will feel real bad when it does that.
<moon-child> could fence if you really wanted, or even say it's weakly ordered if plain, and seqcst with a lock prefix
<bnchs> my goal in this is rewriting an obscure 35 year old OS barely anyone uses
<moon-child> since then you'd be able to use it to implement weakly ordered xadd and cas
<moon-child> ohai sakasama
<nortti> bnchs: which OS, out of interest?
<sakasama> mrvn: It feels real bad already, so that doesn't sound like much of a risk.
<bnchs> nortti: microware OS-9 (m68k version)
<nortti> ooh, neat
* sakasama waves at moon-child.
<bnchs> or the m68k assembly version, not to be confused with OS-9000's m68k port (unoptimized C port)
<mrvn> sakasama: you will be the end of us. Think about it. You are creating a life form whos first act is to kill you. How ever will that go wrong?
<sakasama> mrvn: That's the genius of it; if it replaces me, my objective is already fulfilled!
<heat> moon-child, making it weakly ordered would be supremely strange for an x86 insn
<heat> just like RAO but RAO makes sense in this case, while cmpccxadd is more suited to normal programming like down_semaphore/down_read
<moon-child> yeah but having all your atomics be strongly ordered really sucks
<moon-child> since essentially everything is a fence, which you don't need
<moon-child> basically every other arch in common use gets this right. If cmpccxadd were weakly ordered, then you get the two most important atomics--cas and faa--as weakly ordered for free
<moon-child> by weakly ordered, I just mean acquire/release, like arm; not relaxed. Basically what you want 99% of the time
<heat> what's faa?
<moon-child> fetch and add. ie lock xadd
<heat> ah yes
<mrvn> I want a "pause till $ARRD == imm and set imm2"
<mrvn> potzentially with imm/imm2 just 0/1.
<mrvn> bonus points for having a "wake one" and "wake all" variant.
<mrvn> So basically lock and wait_condition
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