klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<klys> what's a pcie-gpp and where can I find out about its protocol
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<wikan> hi :)
* wikan waves
<wikan> can you tell me how important is advanced math while you want to write your own os?
<zid`> 0
<EthicsGradient> you only need understand two numbers: 0 and 1 :^)
<wikan> why such many?
<hmmmm> very important
<wikan> it is extremely hard to remember them :)
<hmmmm> you need to understand the quaternions in order to successfully create an OS
<wikan> i am working on converting numbers from string now
<hmmmm> you are writing your own libc?
<zid`> hmmmm: Don't forget 18 dimensional topology
<wikan> my math is so poor I always need debug my math code :|
<hmmmm> mmm yes algebraic topology in general you need
<wikan> no, i am writing library for my tools. Console argument management library.
<wikan> you type: SOMETHINK=:0 ./myapp --argument bla bla -Xla -DBLA=xxx
<gog> advanced math? not really
<wikan> and library takes care of it
<gog> but understanding algebra is pretty critical to programming in general since programming is essentailly algebraic
<wikan> i only connect callbacks without checking env and args manualy
<wikan> i like to say "my brain is database like brain not math brain"
<hmmmm> how will you implement SSL without Galios theory?
<hmmmm> back to school with you.
<gog> true
<wikan> it is easy to me to learn information but when I need to do math, I can't imagine it most times
<wikan> well I hope there will be people whom will like my os and will write math code :D
<zid`> gog: 18 dimensional topology vital idk what you're talking about
<sham1> Cryptography and finite state automata
<hmmmm> category theory and lambda calculus are essential.
<hmmmm> (for certain programming languages)
<sham1> The former also being known as "abstract nonsense"
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<wikan> but for micro kernel?
<wikan> memory management, dist operations,etc? how about it
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<sham1> Topology should be useful for things like memory management
<wikan> i like to watch Andreas Kling youtube channel (the guy whom wrote SerenityOS)
<wikan> amazing person
<sham1> Because you'd want to find ways to split memory into fair divisions
<wikan> topology is a mathematical thing? I thought it releated to cartography
<sham1> Yeah. I suppose you were thinking of topography
<wikan> yea, right
<hmmmm> topology is a more generalized version of analysis.
<wikan> so... my memory managment will be not fair :D
<sham1> Well topology will be more useful in proving things about fair memory allocation
<sham1> I.e. that it's possible
<EthicsGradient> sham1: but also how do you define "fair" ?
<wikan> "to insall this OS you need at least 16B of RAM" and problem solved :)
<sham1> EthicsGradient: If you have two processes, you divide the allocation evenly. Another would be scheduling, you'd want to give enough quanta for both and if they're the same priority, you'd want to give both of them the same amount of time
<EthicsGradient> yeah makes sense
<zid`> does anybody do binpacking for process allocation across cores
<sham1> Well you'd probably arrive at it eventually trying to make it so that your cores are equally occupied
<sham1> Moving one thread to another core when it's idle and whatnot to balance the load
<zid`> binpacking and 'fiddling a lot' are approximately the same thing anyway :P
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<sham1> Of course a big part of it becomes "how many threads should be in a core"
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<moon-child> zid`: probably not
<gog> how do you solve a problem like scheduling? how do you catch a thread and pin it to a core
<moon-child> trying to perfectly balance work is hard to do when you're a kernel because: 1) you don't have enough knowledge about the application; 2) the landscape is constantly changing; 3) context switching is expensive
<moon-child> there are libs like starpu that try to do a perfect job of scheduling in userspace, avoiding those pitfalls
<moon-child> (or, at least, heuristic, since optimal is np iirc)
<moon-child> (and yes starpu is the dumbest fucking name ever)
<moon-child> gog: very carefully
<sham1> Obviously what you do is that you move the scheduler to userspace and have it handle the policy. After all, context switches are expensive anyway, so might as well /s
<gog> yes
<gog> switch context 4 times instead of 2 times
<gog> always be switching context
<sham1> Picokernels
<moon-child> sham1: high-performance systems are all one thread per core and handling the multiplexing of work over cores--whether you call that scheduling or something else--themselves
<sham1> Ah, so co-operative
<moon-child> and two-level schedulers are popular (erlang, go, java) for the same reason
<moon-child> (although I would rather have just the one scheduler and have it be fast; ditch the hardware-memory-protected kernel)
* wikan waves
<moon-child> wikan: wassup
<wikan> <^*.*^>/
<wikan> i will strart writing my os when I get information I don't have cancer anymore
<moon-child> best of luck
<wikan> probably it is going well
<wikan> cancer markers dropped down from 9k to about 20 ;)
<gog> nice
<wikan> now i am working on some tools because I want to write my own os in my own language
<moon-child> what sort of language?
<wikan> it looks like mix between c and vim script :D
<sham1> Eugfh
<moon-child> well. Best of luck with that
<sham1> I'm not sure VimL is the thing to take inspiration from
<wikan> well I just use prefixes
<sham1> Okay, that's better
<wikan> i like this idea becuase it is clear for me
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<wikan> there is no strlen(), but func:@com/std:strlen()
<wikan> and you know where this function is
<wikan> you can't create variable like "variable" you must prefix it "var:name"
<wikan> or "const:@com/std:INT32_MAX"
<wikan> for me it is easy to follow
<wikan> and @com is undefined. You define it when you call compiler. It is namespace. You define @com is a "this directory"
<wikan> so easy to work with subprojects like libs, etc
<wikan> for os it would looks like: @drivers:fs/ntfs:init()
<wikan> wrong, @drivers/fs/ntsf:init()
<zid`> are you talking to someone
<wikan> i know i know
<wikan> i am excited ;)
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<heat> kernel
<moon-child> cold
<heat> heat
<hmmmm> warmth
* wikan says bye
* wikan wawes
* wikan waves
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<heat> hmmmmmm
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<Ermine> uncold
<Ermine> or, coldn't
<FireFly> cold's
<mjg> gift.unwrap()?
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<epony> try to use half-words that would make better virolunar poetry in hieroglyphs, use pictographs and make bottom to top for more fun reading
<heat> mjg, btw phoronix tested booting BSDs on 13th gen Intel
<heat> the only one that booted was OpenBSD :v
<moon-child> wer sapphire rapids
<mjg> heat: :p
<epony> OpenBSD has its own ACPI implementation
<mjg> heat: i tested that at work, booted fine, but perf was ass
<epony> ass is sometimes perf too
<mjg> heat: due to lack of understanding of the topology
<moon-child> because of big.little stuff?
<mjg> yea
<moon-child> isn't it the same topology as 12th gen?
<epony> no, because it's arm in disguise
<epony> and has eff and perf cores separation
<heat> i firmly believe literally no one uses FreeBSD
<heat> hell, I bet it doesn't compile
<moon-child> also I thought I saw a patch somewhere that dealt with that
<epony> FreeBSD is used a lot
<moon-child> heat: no one uses freebsd on desktop
<moon-child> (except me apparently)
<epony> but not that much on laptops
<mjg> heat: i confirm, tried to compile freebsd yesterday!
<moon-child> and no one uses big.little on servers
<mjg> nobody has numa on servers
<epony> FreeBSD is used on desktops a lot
<epony> but nobod uses arm on servers
<epony> because it's useless
<epony> I mean, the most that gets usage is Sparc and such that are RISC
<epony> and Power / PPC
<epony> and even HPPA
<epony> so RISC has place on the servers and high performance computers, only Arm cores are small, too dense, and overheat and are not suitable for high throughput machines as is so far
<epony> plus the lack of SBSA support and internal buses in the earlier gens was a no-go
<bslsk05> ​www.phoronix.com: Trying Out The BSDs On The Intel Core i9 13900K "Raptor Lake" - Phoronix
<epony> the performance on OpenBSD is not great at all because it's SMP/SMT contended and has kernel space locking
<mjg> heat: well that is a little different than whaty ou led me to believe
<epony> and is like FreeBDS before the giant lock removal from the kernel, so think 2002-2004 and similar
<heat> why
<moon-child> kinda throws into question the whole 'we start up in real mode for backwards compat reasons'
<mjg> heat: the kernel finishing boot but not able to find the boot dev is very different than straight up not booting
<heat> netbsd actually traps
<mjg> heat: in comparison dfly panicked on something
<epony> FreeBSD has the lock removed and is not SMP/SMT contended since 2004-2008 (even before Linux got SMP unlocked)
<heat> no, dragonfly booted to a cmdline, freebsd got stuck somewhere, net died, OpenBSD is the GOAT
<epony> but the perf/eff cores shuffling inside the arm-like new gen CPUs fro Intel is going to suck on Windows and Linux too
<mjg> oh sorry, the panic is netbsd
<epony> that's the ACPI
<epony> tweaking it a bit on the others will fix it
<mjg> heat: oh hehe
<epony> but the pefrormance is going to suck on all systems which do not have "changes" for the context switching and migration of processes between the cores
<mjg> heat: did the guy try installing openbsd though?
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<mjg> heat: afair they boot with a ramdisk
<mjg> heat: meaning by the stage he reached in the screenshot there is no i/o attempts by the kernel
<heat> But then when proceeding with the installer, the wired and wireless networking for this ASUS Z790 motherboard were not working on this latest OpenBSD release. Thus resorting to an older USB network adapter to have a network connection
<mjg> heat: for all ik now it would have failed the same way fbsd did
<epony> and OpenBSD has support for both DT and AHCI for the device enumeration
<heat> but it seemed like it does install
<heat> "But as for how OpenBSD on Raptor Lake compares to Linux for performance, that's saved for another article"
<epony> so technically should work either way on ARM too, in contrast to the other BSDs
<mjg> ok, that i'm not gonna suffer
<heat> can't wait for OpenBSD vs Linux
<epony> no Linux has better performance than OpenBSD because Linux is SMP-unlocked
<mjg> i don't know if i can get hadns on raptor lake easily
<epony> and has more support in drivers and NDAs etc
<mjg> everything has better performance than openbsd, evne onyx
<epony> no
<mjg> ask heat
<sham1> Year of the FreeBSD desktop shall be the next epoch once the YOTLD happens
<mjg> dude we benchmarked some of it
<heat> the only BSD I don't beat is Free
<epony> plan9 has worse performance than OpenBSD
<heat> but that's a moot point because FreeBSD doesn't even boot :v
<epony> FreeBSD is the most interesting of the BSDs and OpenBSD is the most useful
<mjg> heat: you hurt my feelings
<epony> NetBSD is like OpenBSD with deficits
* mjg is going to shit some on rust to chilll down
<sham1> NetBSD is like OpenBSD without the hilarity that is Theo sometimes
<mjg> what
<epony> the advantage of NetBSD is porting and drivers, but it cross compiles and some platforms have not been booted / tested on real HW for decades
<mjg> sham1: i recommend you google for posts by maxv on netbsd lists
<mjg> sham1: really :)
<sham1> Ooh, well then
<epony> hilarity is when NetBSD tries to claim performance and FreeBSD shows up
<heat> mjg, sounds like something is deeply wrong with BSD drivers such that they cannot boot a new gen at all
<heat> do they need a list of PCI ids for these devices?
<mjg> heat: i may or may not be able to get some hands on a raptor box and we will see
<mjg> heat: at $work we got ice lake
<epony> the NetBSD lists are hard to Google.. because there are too few subscribers ;-)
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<mjg> heat: well you do need to add IDs for drivers to attach
<epony> the new Intel gen is shit
<mjg> heat: it may be for a lot of it adding the Ids is literally all that's needed
<epony> use Amd
<sham1> Well that's just Intel. I wonder how AMD is doing
<heat> but this is standard hw
<heat> you can bind based on the class/subclass/progif ID in PCI
<sham1> I want a threadripper. They're sadly too expensive
<epony> and stay away from APUs 'cause the LinuxDRM is like sucking and blowing assballoons at the same time
<heat> mjg, if you need to add EVERY PCI VID/DID PAIR EVER for a device, your device binding sucks
<epony> there is nothing to justify a Turdreaper.. software is lagging and the kernels are contended for parallelism
<epony> it's probably only targeted by some workstation commercial crapware OSes and middleware / hyperviruses (visors)
<heat> and it's not like xhci or ahci or nvme actually changed lately. so what's the issue? unless you need major quirks for some broken hw, things should work
<epony> yeah, you're getting your performance fix from IBM
<epony> that's the conclusion
<epony> cause Linux alone is not there too "as is"
<sham1> No one was ever fired for buying Big Blue
<epony> except IBM is not used in data centres
<mjg> heat: i'm not saying it does not
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<mjg> heat: .. suck
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<epony> all of the big tech clouds are custom tweaks consumer mainboards and server variants for the infrastructure/db/application servers
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<mjg> heat: looks like amazomn only has cpus up to ice lake
<mjg> notgud
<epony> only laptops get the latest gens typically
<epony> and then desktoys
<epony> and last servers
<epony> so much as to servers skip entire gens and cycles
<epony> so the frequency of releases of new models is highest with Apple / Arm / nVidia and consumer / mobile
<epony> and laptops are in that category
<epony> SoC-ware and appliance consumer CPUs
<heat> mjg, unlikely to help anyway
<heat> you probably need to boot on a real raptor lake platform
<heat> instead of a 13th gen CPU and whatever devices QEMU/Amazon decide to make up
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<mjg> heat: ec2 is handing out bare metal
<mjg> heat: or close enough to it
<heat> oh really?
<mjg> see 'metal' instances
<mjg> it's not all overprovisioned vms
<heat> that's really cool
<heat> so are they prohibitly expensive?
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<heat> and how do they stop you from fucking shit up
<mjg> heat: i don't know pricing, i use them for free
<heat> :(
<mjg> ... provided i don't push it
<mjg> which i don't
<heat> is that a freebsd foundation benefit thing or what?
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<epony> more like how hosting on facebook works, you get a free tier for trialware
<epony> gcp offers such too
<mjg> heat: there is a freebsd developer who for reaosns i don't specificaly know has a deal with amazon
<mjg> heat: gazilliard affiliate points or whatever it is
<heat> ah
<heat> cool
<epony> the cperciva is an aws s3 reseller
<mjg> that's the guy
<epony> the FreeBSD security "officer" who is a violin player
<heat> apple should gift something to freebsd devs too
<heat> like, extra icloud storage
<heat> does that sound good?
<epony> a box of pears and a bottle of rainbow wine
<mjg> :p
<epony> Apple is leasing cloud services from MSFT and AMZN
<epony> there is no iCloud, it's an application / leasing resale
<epony> IBM kicked them out
<epony> so Apple went out to ORACL and GOOG too
<epony> very versatilve, no own infrastructure
<mjg> heat: so if need be i can bench some onyx in a vm on otherwise unocuppied bare metal over there
<epony> you can do the same on OVH too for even lower costs
<mjg> i got the cost of 0
<mjg> is ovh going to pay me?
<epony> no
<epony> but it's not going to make others pay your costs
<mjg> then it's not lower cost for me
<epony> for everone else is
<micttyl> host your own cloud. put the servers in your friend's garage.
<epony> it's a decent competitor to aws
<epony> that wors even better
<epony> only the peering is garagehole
<epony> and you get cold drafts and leaks
<epony> also.. ovh has own international peering leases and decent backbone access, which lets them offer much lower costs than aws
<epony> instead of passing through 1 more tier like amzn does
<epony> and outside USA amzn does not own but rents
<epony> while goog owns data centres abroad
<epony> speaking of FreeBSD did Jordan Hubbard came back or did he manage to convince people in FreeBSD to become an Apple subsidiary and adopt the launchd systemd startup clones and the microkernels and insta-on features of locking up your server (you know Apple is not a server company)
<epony> and why don't people on the FreeBSD foundation staff not use FreeBSD but Apple and Windows laptops?
* epony shows the airbrake in the middle of the air
<micttyl> didn't hire such people i guess
<heat> mjg, that'd be cool but then if onyx doesnt boot i'll look super stupid :v
<epony> sounds to me, performance is not everything.. on the laptops ;-) must be some remote control from a peering corporate sponsorship
<heat> might as well become a BSD at that point
<micttyl> beside admin, it is somewhat serious problem since FreeBSD is advertised as also a good desktop OS unlike for example OpenBSD
<epony> that is inevitable
<heat> is OpenBSD advertised as a good anything
<micttyl> they don't officially appeal anything about desktop application
<epony> even Linux realised early on the ext to ext2 conversion that BSD is what works and has some wood knocking sanity reworks
<micttyl> FreeBSD however does so
<epony> FreeBSD has marketing
<epony> not as much as Linux but.. has
<mjg> heat: if it does not boot i simply wnt tell you
<mjg> heat: alternatively i'll mail the phoronix guy to write abouti t
<epony> Linux has become a foundation of foundations, forking all the time like rainshrooms
<mjg> heat: have not decided
<heat> lmao
<micttyl> two of my laptops runs only FreeBSD, no other efi boot
<epony> is phoronix not a newspam site?
<heat> mjg, have you seen the memes about turkish people saying turkey is the best all the way from berlin?
<epony> (of marketing and paid publications)
<heat> "freebsd is the best" - mjg, from RHEL
<mjg> heat: no
<mjg> i do genuinely htink a blogpost somewhere comparing perf of homebrew systems would be a fun light read
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<epony> RHEL is a contender to FreeBSD, but FreeBSD has juice, and RHEL has money
<mjg> and one can be generous by not including openbsd on the list
<epony> RHEL without the IBM handholding is full of shit really, and the performance is mediocre as is
<heat> guarantee you I'll beat everyone
<epony> remember fsyncgate?
<mjg> probably true
<heat> the competition is either microkernels or understaffed monolithic kernels written by non-performance-nuts
<bslsk05> ​wiki.postgresql.org: Fsync Errors - PostgreSQL wiki
<mjg> i was considering writing about templeos vs performance, since terry made numerous mostly wrong claims
<mjg> but i expect people will give me shit for doing it
<sham1> "How dare you bully this mentally hurt man"
<epony> templeos has performance? that's like Wfw3.11 without the workgroups and without the windows
<heat> he dead
<mjg> should you poke around interwebz he reached "mainstream", and by that i mean there are people who are not programming and who know he wrote an OS
<epony> so.. holyc died too
<epony> plan9 has performance.. but fails on grid computing
<mjg> what i find problematic is the the dude is considered a /genius/ for writing one
<epony> and the performance is like 386BSD
<epony> that's a bit nonsensical (4chan idiocy)
<mjg> key for me is that he decided to not have user/kernel priv split and that was the intended end state
<mjg> for the end game
<epony> of the endspiel of the 16bit DOS epoch
<heat> we wasn't a "genius" but writing an OS is pretty hard
<mjg> "like commodore 64. like a motorbike -- you lean too much and you gonna crash"
<mjg> i think it would make for an interesting read why the mindset above is not fit for contemporary computing
<mjg> even for end user systems
<epony> like false analogies
<sham1> I mean, HolyC had some neat things about it
<mjg> heat: noq ustion he would be a good programmer if it was not for his mental health issues
<sham1> I mean, it's not like TempleOS was really meant to be "contemporary computing" in that sense. It was more a thing where it was meant as a "monument to God" in some sense
<mjg> his claims everyone who disageres is an MIT nigger suggest otherwise
<epony> it's not fit for contemproray systems, not because of his mindset, but because of yours not knowing about out-of-order and superscalar processors that came out to supercede and replace the previous models and also cancel the risc workstations with the same swift move (and to add some caching and what not else, like branch prediction and pipelining and new instructions sets)
<mjg> he explicitly claimed the cost of user<->kernel transition is too high to bare
<mjg> and linux is just dogshit for paying for it
<mjg> and so on
<mjg> the ring3/ring0 separation belongs in a mainframe!
<moon-child> I mean it does suck
<epony> it's like claiming DRI's CP/M and DR-DOS was revolutionary since it tried to do UNIX-like adaptations to the PCs before Intel had tested it out as "working"
<moon-child> but if you get rid of it you still have to provide a solution for security
<epony> while it's actually an adaptation of a system and nothing new
<mjg> moon-child: it is not free for sure, mitigations or not :)
<moon-child> but people obviously do fast stuff on linux. Esp. post-io_uring
<heat> well, you're complaining about the mental behavior of a mentally ill person
<mjg> i'm not complainig about terry
<heat> good "programmer" sure
<epony> it's ring -3 and there is also -4 now
<mjg> i'm comlpaining about people tauting him a genius
<heat> we wrote a full OS and toolchain and shit
<heat> s/we/he/
<heat> inb4 im terry
<sham1> "Je Suis Terry"
<mjg> perhaps i could try to clarify this way
<mjg> non-tech problem: people love to claim FUCKING GENIUS when someone does something they have no clue about
<mjg> tech problem: intentional lack of priv separation in templeos would make for an informative post why it is not fit for sensible use today for end user devices
<mjg> trivial examlpe would be what happens when a program crashes
<mjg> do you want to need to reboot?
<mjg> and then another one about security
<mjg> even your fucking phone uses a lot of privsep
<heat> oh yeh totally
<heat> doesn't a phone have like 3 separate priv layers + secure world or whatever
<mjg> that said, i think there is sensible & educational things to say here, while not shitting on terry as a parson
<epony> and they call the service personnel in the Apple shops "geniuses" too, but that's not really a genius either
<mjg> that is a very different subject tho, innit
<epony> your phone uses shit separation where your baseband modem is a SoC on its own and has memory access to the embedded CPU SoC where it's attached
<epony> so the separation in the phone is.. a complex and mostly laughable matter
<heat> tbf he also had a point
<heat> you want to get around the kernel<->user barrier as much as possible
<heat> such that io_uring and eBPF everything are a thing
<heat> you can literally inject """safe""" code into the kernel
<epony> that's what the browser is aiming for with the _Rust_ implants in the kernel too
<epony> don't think it's for making your kernel run faster or safer, it's for tapping the browser with kernel support bypassing system premises / module support for hypervisors etc
<froggey> mjg: as someone who's written a something similar to templeos... yeah you don't have to be a genius for that and it's kinda weird that people elevate him to that kind of level. dedication and lots of free time are the important factors
<froggey> I'd also be interested in a performance comparison of hobby systems, but I guess that might get difficult for some of the more out-there systems
<epony> also there is not a lot of prophecy in the "holy" part of it ;-) it's more like inability to understand the metaphors of religion in everyday life
<mjg> froggey: i see the 'genius' thing everywhere
<mjg> froggey: not just about terry or programmming
<mjg> it's pet peeve of mine
<mjg> anyhow, i'm afraid for least unfair perf comparison one may need to stick to unix clones
<epony> and a lot of infidels too
<epony> UNIX has pefrormance, it's WIN/DOS that is blocking on floppy access and printer spool
<mjg> the good news is that this is what mosto f the systems seem to be
<epony> UNIX was designed to work with 10-100 terminal lines (even 256)
<epony> Windows was designed to run with one idiot behind it..
<epony> it's not much of a performance if you're running at max CPU speed a 1 application in a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unikernel?useskin=vector it's about as single address space as can get
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<epony> here is your best "speed" demons, most of them defunct and abandonware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_address_space_operating_system?useskin=vector
<sham1> WinDOS also blocks me from writing to a file that's opened elsewhere
<sham1> Literally unusable
<epony> "Windows has performed and illegal context switch and needs to switch back to safe mode, please wait while we reboot your autopilot" --the macAir port
<epony> and and and
<sham1> And yeah, it actually is annoying that it forbids me from saving while documents are open. Makes synctex workflows annoying, for example
<epony> half-duped simplex networking for the masses and their molasses
<kaichiuchi> hi
<kaichiuchi> froggey: i think it's the fact that he was homeless and a schizophrenic and was still able to pull it off
<froggey> I'm pretty sure he lived with his parents for most of the development
<epony> the glowies stuff was not nice
<epony> and being homeless 5 minutes before the train resolves the problem is not really homelessness
<kaichiuchi> i dunno
<epony> alcohol and narcotics have spoiled lots of promising youths
<kaichiuchi> mjg: you don't need my advice, but I wouldn't advise a blog post or something about him
<kaichiuchi> because you're just going to get shit on massively
<kaichiuchi> sometimes, to hold a pen is to be at war
<epony> and to hold an emulator is to be at universe creation, not really but.. Elon believes the same shit
<kaichiuchi> and re "genius"; when I was growing up, computer laymen (my parents, my elementary school teachers etc.) kept calling me a genius because I was able to use a computer, and 'fix' computers
<kaichiuchi> big mistake.
<froggey> the internet loves its darlings
<kaichiuchi> I'm not saying terry wasn't smart
<epony> face it, you could have become a genius if you had read a set of textbooks (or two) about computers
<kaichiuchi> but I think people look to him in the sense that he was severely mentally ill and still pulled off something fairly complicated
<epony> but it's not consumer tech-pulp books that make it happen
<epony> and if you believe that people like Carmack are geniuses..
<kaichiuchi> it's meant to be an inspiration
<epony> that's not severe mental illness, though
<mjg> kaichiuchi: 13:32 < mjg> but i expect people will give me shit for doing it
<kaichiuchi> oh
<kaichiuchi> sorry
<kaichiuchi> heh
<mjg> maybe i'll write a post how i heard heat is a genius for writing onyx
<kaichiuchi> i'm just saying, I'm not a schizophrenic, but try doing anything productive whatsoever when you're on dopamine antagonists, and even if you aren't, hearing or believing that the CIA is going to come kill you and your whole family
<epony> well, if you start with pills and vodka now, in a couple of years that might change ;-)
<kaichiuchi> antipsychotics render your only thought for the day "should I have eggs or french toast for breakfast" before sleeping 18 hours
<epony> the CIA is capable of doing that
<epony> and has been doing THAT to some people (and their families)
<epony> maybe not to goofs and drools but still
<epony> the holy-dead-c scrolls is the real mental disorder
<epony> and it's probably been minor in his case with dellusions and cyclophrenic patterns, like a high-functioning autism of some sort
<epony> the bad thing is peole don't have access to quality medication and treatment in the expensive capitalist health"care" system
<epony> so it's mostly a sadness to his family and people in such position, not a really big loss to applied sciences
<epony> so might as well stop believing the Allan Kay "kerpow" talks about education as a means to sell overpriced computers
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<Ermine> mjg: re templeos: isn't user supposed to pray if some program crashes?
<micttyl> it was an interesting discussion, so i looked around and found that there is an opinion about donation money goes to somewhere else: https://web.archive.org/web/20210318184422/https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/2018-March/007181.html
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<bslsk05> ​web.archive.org: FreeBSD's politics problem
<epony> there is a really scary part to this though, not in the software, but in the hardware, or rather.. the wetware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy?useskin=vector#Prevalence
<mjg> micttyl: while i don't know the full accounting of freebs foudnation financials
<mjg> micttyl: i can tell you i know for a fact that there is money going towards development of the system and various hardware
<epony> 'freebs' sounds very funny
<mjg> micttyl: on that point, a dev machine for i'm using for freebsd scalability work got extra 280G of ram 2 weeks ago to enable some benches to be ran
<epony> the management of funds is obviously going well since the FreeBSD system is competitive and significant as a contender with Linux's popularity, although with a much more technical quality to it in the 1995-2010 period
<mjg> interested parties can find sponsored work in 'sponsord by' tags in the commit log
<mjg> s/in/by/
<epony> that sucks
<micttyl> i am not used to this sarcasm
<epony> sponsored commits and log messages smells a lot like commercialised development
<gog> brought to you by Carls, Jr.
<epony> Linux has been eating shit about the corporate control for the last 25 years
<epony> and the useds starting eating the same with changes in the interests of automation and data centre provisioning and binary interfaces and such for a long time too
<epony> and you can say GNU uses the same embrace extend and extinguish practices that Microsoft does, only not for binary only distribution..
<micttyl> given the reality some people need to make living, i don't mind of corporate interference. i think the argument should start from: "how is this control bad"
<epony> you're missing the point of free software though
<epony> that's shareware and source available trialware
<gog> brought to you by carls, jr.
<micttyl> epony: you're right indeed
<epony> and the points in the BSD have been non-commercial UNIX
<mjg> Ermine: i don't know anything about that
<mjg> Ermine: i only remember explicit claim that crashes happen and you have to deal with it
<mjg> and that address space and priv separation is too costly to do
<epony> I think GNU should keep a more competitive stance in the interest of the users and the public, rather than its own distribution "rights" and "protectorate" as inheritance to its foundation chairs and staff
<mjg> all stated prior to meltdown et all mind you
<mjg> et al
<epony> and FreeBSD could benefit from less commercialisation and more "due diligence" into developers being UNIX and BSD people instead of Apple and Windows affiliates
<epony> but these points are minor
<gog> cache timing attacks are irrelevant without priv separation anyway
<epony> what's bad is the dependence on Linux import in the BSD world to keep support for graphics and heavy compilers and monster dependencies and reduction of quality in applications on accelerated pace that target only Linux and that being a second target after Windows (browsers and IDEs being the prime abuse of system resources by bypassing the system premises and doing double overhead of memory management in application space)
<Ermine> gog: may I pet you
<micttyl> we have linuxkpi to borrow linux features
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<epony> and the other really shitty thing is using software middleware modeled and designed to target commercial and single vendor CPU designs that are not at all the mainstream and business ready office and server class machines, but proprietary smaller and less capable ones, resulting in penalty in performance on most in use computers for really no good reason
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<micttyl> oh like in-house muh-way standard?
<gog> Ermine: yes
<kaichiuchi> gog: may I have some chili
<gog> kaichiuchi: yes
* kaichiuchi eats chili
<epony> here is a generic details listing of the performance and efficiency cores premises which you will find on Intel's latest laptops too
<epony> so it's expected that systems that don't make use of that will "suck" for some time as efficiency
<epony> so might as well wait it out or program your way into it, or change form factors / CPUs or OS for the initial adoption "mandate"
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<epony> in short: laptops are becoming frisbees as tablets and phones
<epony> and that explains the LLVM/MLIR and JVM/BC/IR/CLR controlled runtime middleware too, that optimises for that model of programming
<epony> the main goal: application stores and sucbscriptions, at the cost of a long transition period, application rewrites and reimplementations, and higher prices, and lower performance.. but better battery life, and more control of business over the middleware
<epony> what's not to like about "commercialisation" and sponsorship with "command and control" strings attached to it
<epony> the Chinese new year reminds the "may you live in interesting times" fortune cookie (curse)
<epony> it's going to be much fun
<epony> eventually, OSes will improve, and applications too
<epony> as for the battery life on servers.. not so sure ;-)
<mrvn> moon-child: God fearing users don't do bad things. TempleOS needs no security.
<epony> that's exactly what Lisp has been saying for 60 years
<epony> the Interweb does not believe list processor tears
<mrvn> heat: phones have so much priv. separation and security that you don't even bother. You just inspect the encrypted data and reconstruct the voice from correlations.
<mrvn> It's too bad the security is flawed.
<epony> it's due to deliberate choices in hardware and middleware
<epony> and various communications protocols
<epony> phones are not securable without control of the built-in baseband modem
<epony> it's a botnet
<epony> like browsers
<epony> also the OS does not control much of what the other parts of the SoC are doing and it has direct access to the data lines in CPU space
<epony> it's a lot of lies and marketing BS
<mrvn> micttyl: when a project starts paying people there is always a risk those people will then work for getting payed more instead of working for the project.
<micttyl> mrvn: that a big pitfall
<mrvn> Soon you are paying someone to handle paying people.
<micttyl> mrvn: do you worry about your low-paying employee moving to another project?
<micttyl> mrvn: do you want to stop them?
* Ermine pets gog
* gog prrr
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<heat> mjg, i want to be a misunderstood genius after I pass away relatively young
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<sbalmos> heat: your cause of death will be misunderstood. close enough?
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<zid`> sbalmos: I'll just write it down as "misadventure", saves the family from learning he was a pervert.
<heat> misadventure in thailand
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<mjg> anybody knows a good place where one can ask cpu engineers about something
<mjg> now that i asked the above, perhaps i can try intel forums
<heat> lmao
<mrvn> micttyl: I want to have enough people to take over every job so that that isn't a worry.
<mrvn> micttyl: having firms pay developers directly because the firm uses the project internally or as part of their busyness is also great. Better than donations to pay someone.
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<mrvn> heat: die young and leave a beautiful corpse?
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<mrvn> mjg: or just ask here
<mrvn> there are a few cpu builders in here although that might not be what you need
<kof123> he said he wants to be a misunderstood genius *after* he passes away. this is afterlife only, he'll still be the heat you all know and love in the meantime.
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<Bitweasil> mjg, depending on what it is, asking here is probably the best source I know of, short of actually knowing people at Intel or AMD or such.
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<heat> mjg is beside himself looking for the 13th gen's verilog as a way to find out why freebsd doesn't boot
<mjg> genz humor calmed me down
<zid`> I want an airfix 8086
<zid`> cut all the transistors out, glue them in
<sham1> Now I want a gen z processor
<zid`> I can get you a z-machine
<zid`> is that good enough
<epony> you get an Rpi3
<epony> that's gen Z
<heat> does the z in z-machine stand for zid
<zid`> no
<zid`> zork
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<sham1> Zoinks
<zid`> no that's a mystery machine
<sham1> That'd be rather myserious
<epony> the Z in IBM Z stands for Ze IBM
<mrvn> does it have a dog?
<epony> but since it's a CISC, you don't like it
<kof123> they had soem kind of eye bee and i forget the M screensaver
<epony> for you only RISC works, the CISC is broken for you
<sham1> That's just the defining feature of CISC, not working
<sham1> And being inelegant
<zid`> but being fast and easy on the eyes
<zid`> like a racing snail
<epony> that's what the RpiZero is
<epony> a zero performance best-in-show znail
<epony> with Apple technology inside
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<epony> btw, you don't want FreeBSD really, for GenZ you want Redoz and micro-zernels
<epony> and it's not gen13, it's genZirteen
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<demindiro> I finally got the design of my cache right
<demindiro> Probably
<demindiro> 6525 insertions(+), 3640 deletions(-)
<demindiro> Only a mere 17628 loc total
<epony> it's supposed to be approx 0 lines and be in hardware
<demindiro> I'd rather shoot myself than try implement my cache in hardware
<netbsduser> what sort of cache?
<demindiro> Cache for my custom filesystem
<epony> zCache
<demindiro> Which was supposed to be pretty simple but alas
<mrvn> distributed caching?
<demindiro> cache invalidation + redirect-on-write + compression + whatever with concurrency turns out to be hard
<epony> you've been tainted by zFS on the future to be announced version z23 of zOS
<epony> especially if you're writing it in Lizp
<Ermine> where genz humour?
<demindiro> What humour?
<epony> when it's ported from Lizp to z/LIZP
<epony> remember, no slashing no fun
<epony> which lz4 did you use for comprezzion?
<mrvn> I just started building a fuse FS that uses a 1TB tmpfs as cache for a rotating disk array.
<demindiro> 1TB seems a bit excessive
<mrvn> or maybe just memory in the fuse process
<epony> why are you rotating the array? ;-)
<epony> you don't have that much RAM
<epony> especially on on Rpi5
<mrvn> why?
<epony> is that supposed to be some version of the arc cache? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_replacement_cache?useskin=vector
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<\Test_User> "Assumption of CODE and DATA occupying the same space, (at least with PAE NX bits and Paging units not used) allows ROGUE/virus like code in the first place to take advantage of the machine. INTEL Specs even say this. " (near the end of https://wiki.osdev.org/Segmentation)
<\Test_User> why exactly is this? just the typical "rwe memory is dangerous bc program could be tricked into executing arbitrary code if it's got the right bugs" stuff or some actual cpu issue allowing more than what would normally be allowed
<bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: Segmentation - OSDev Wiki
<heat> sounds like bullshit
<heat> at least very non-wikipedia-like
<heat> but yes rwx bad
<heat> "Microsoft still is plagued with this problem,despite having NX bits enabled even in the latest OSes. " bs?
<\Test_User> yeah that doesn't quite add up bc it says "with PAE NX bits and Paging units not used" but then that has them
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